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The War on White Statues

June 25, 2020

First they came for the Confederate generals, but that was OK because they fought against the Union for the preservation of slavery

Next they came for Christopher Columbus, and that was sort of OK, I guess, because despite having opened up the Western Hemisphere to European settlement, he was less than kind to the indigenous peoples. (And we all know what happened to them after that.)

Then they came for George Washington, which wasn’t OK, because despite having owned slaves (are we shocked that a man born into the hereditary 18th-century Southern planter class used slave labor?) he secured our independence against overwhelming odds, presided over the framing of the Constitution, served admirably as our first president, and voluntarily renounced power after two terms. He also came to detest slavery, refused to buy and sell slaves or break up families, and freed all his slaves in his will – an act of rare compassion for a Southern gentleman of his time. Not good enough? Let’s move on, then…

Finally they came for Ulysses S. Grant, and that was a damnable insult to the man who defeated the Confederacy and indirectly liberated all slaves from bondage. What was their excuse? Grant owned a grand total of one slave during his lifetime – a gift from his Southern father-in-law. And he freed that solitary slave within a year. Despite being hard up for cash at the time, Grant refused to sell him or exploit his free labor. Later, as president, he enforced Reconstruction, enabled blacks to gain positions of power in the South, and fought against the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. Still not pure enough for the neo-Bolsheviks who toppled his statue? To hell with them, then.

Other statues victimized by salivating mobs include California mission founder Father Junipero Serra, Revolutionary War hero Casimir Pulaski, Francis Scott Key, and Boston’s magnificent monument to Col. Robert Gould Shaw and the all-black 54th Massachusetts Regiment, immortalized in the movie Glory. (Did they object to a white officer leading soldiers of color while sitting on horseback? Did they stop to think that Shaw, just 25 at the time, died along with his men? Or that they died fighting the Confederacy? Maybe that’s why they only spray-painted it with graffiti instead of tearing it down.)

Meanwhile, New York’s world-famous American Museum of Natural History is set to remove its heroic outdoor statue of Theodore Roosevelt on horseback, flanked by an African and a Native American. All three figures are sculpted with dignity, so what’s the offense? TR is seated above his nonwhite companions, a sure indicator of white supremacy, paternalism, colonialism, and your choice of any other -ism you can throw at white males. The museum affirmed its commitment to honor Teddy in other ways, but the statue is about to make its exit.

Oh, and now biracial activist Shaun King calls for the removal of all sculptures and stained-glass windows depicting a “European” Jesus. (I guess the Pieta has to go.) Proclaims King: “They are a form of white supremacy. Always have been.” (News: As a Jew, Jesus was certifiably Caucasian, even if he didn’t look Dutch or Norwegian. We have no contemporary descriptions of his appearance, but my educated guess – based on northern Egyptian tomb portraits from his era – is that he could have passed for a Greek or Italian.)

What do the offending statues have in common? Not all of them depicted slave owners or overt racists. It couldn’t be that all the images were of prominent white males, could it? I’m certainly no white supremacist (in fact, many of today’s leftists would argue that I’m not even white), but my majestic Armenian nose can detect the odor of escalating anti-white sentiment in the air, and it’s starting to stink. I only hope that the extremism of the left-wing iconoclasts doesn’t trigger an equal and opposite reaction from gun-toting right-wing white mobs. 

Oddly enough, it seems that most of the damage is being perpetrated by young white social justice warriors. How to explain the peculiar brand of racial self-hatred percolating among these statue-topplers and so many other young white leftists? Have they absorbed the not-so-subtle anti-white messaging from BLM activists, biased news sources and collegiate “grievance studies” professors? Have they swallowed the distorted media narrative that black people are chronically victimized by white people? (Strange, isn’t it, that we never hear about the white victims of police killings or black assaults, which actually outnumber white-on-black crimes.) Have they been driven to self-loathing by the purported race-baiting of Trump and his unruly base? Do they exempt themselves from the sins of their less enlightened white peers – or do they wallow in collective guilt? Are they simply sensitive souls who want to protect their nonwhite friends from potentially hurtful images? If so, their zeal for destruction doesn’t strike me as especially sensitive.

Something tells me that they’re at least subtly pressured to rage against their own people for fear of falling outside the zone of Acceptable Thought on Race. Besides, it’s hip to be “woke.” So they march, rant, and topple the statues of good men along with the bad.

Extremists on the left have bent over backward to justify the assault on American history. A seismic shift in the racial power balance is long overdue, they say. (Fair enough, but does that mean whites have to take a subordinate role?) Some on the fringes even suggest that whites should cede control of the government to blacks for a generation or more. So much for representative democracy.

A couple of friends chastised me on Facebook for my anger over toppled “hunks of bronze.” (The Liberty Bell is just a hunk of bronze, too, and I dare anyone to topple that.) The symbolism is undeniable: black activists and “woke” whites seem intent on “dismantling whiteness” – a popular topic on campuses today. Out go the pale-faced imperialists, exploiters and racists – but what about the likes of Shakespeare, Bach, Plato and Rembrandt? Where does it stop?

I was relieved to hear at least a few moderating voices. The generally inflammatory Max Boot opined that great men like Washington and especially the progressive-thinking Grant should never be discarded along with the Confederate generals.

Ken Burns, a staunch liberal whose classic Civil War documentary series on PBS paid homage to both sides, regretted giving respect to the Confederate cause but insisted that we shouldn’t go overboard by tearing down the statues of men whose greatness outweighed their flaws.

A panel discussion on left-leaning CNN concluded that the excesses of the moment would eventually correct themselves and find a proper balance.

Balance is almost always a good thing. We should acknowledge that black people have been victimized throughout much of our history, and that they still suffer from ugly vestiges of racism today, without demonizing white people and branding all of American history as an endless chronicle of oppression.

Much like the companies whose obsequious pro-BLM public service announcements saturated the media after George Floyd’s death, well-meaning white progressives have a tendency to grovel before black activists and their demands. Defund the police? We’re on it! Create separate black dorms and spaces on college campuses? Done! Capitalize Black but keep white in lower-case? Of course – it’s more just! Dear white people: just shut up and listen! Why, certainly – we have no right to an opinion.

Instead of fetishizing black people and granting them a blank check for every demand, “woke” whites should ask themselves whether their attitude is more patronizing than genuinely respectful. In an ideal world, the aim of black progress would be full equality, not special treatment based on skin color. And the conversation on race would be a two-way street – a conversation between equals.

Tearing down statues – like the looting of commercial districts – simply drives a deeper wedge between the left and the right – between most blacks and most whites – without generating a scintilla of positive change. If the iconoclasts’ goal is to vent anger and provoke it in others, they’re succeeding handsomely. If they want a revolution, we’ll all have to live with the consequences: chaos, bloodshed, ever-shifting loyalties and, eventually, a totalitarian regime that tolerates no dissent.

Instead, how about pressing for a quiet revolution in police training and criminal justice – along with government and private investment in depressed black communities, a revival of the inner-city black family, and the development of teaching methods that keep black students from dropping out of school? That’s the kind of revolution that sticks – the kind of revolution even a raving moderate can support. 

Rick Bayan is founder-editor of The New Moderate. His three collections of darkly humorous essays are available in e-book form for $2.99 each on Amazon. (Just search under “Rick Bayan.”)

 

649 Comments leave one →
  1. June 25, 2020 12:22 pm

    Rick, excellent as always. If the black community had a strong, but soft voice, leading them, then I think a lot of progress could be made. One leader, with groups in each state following a script to work directly through churches, community groups and others with local government. All working from the same script as was followed by those led by MLK. Right now there is no leader. Just a rag tag group of demonstrators with some wanting change mixed in with some wanting violence.

    Tearing down history, especially bad history, is not progress. Understanding history so it is not repeated is progress. Just as eliminating Aunt Jemima pancake mix is not progress, understanding Nancy Green, her life and how her life formed the product and how she was used to promote the product is progress.

    https://www.npr.org/local/309/2020/06/19/880918717/the-fight-to-commemorate-nancy-green-the-woman-who-played-the-original-aunt-jemima

    • dhlii permalink
      June 25, 2020 4:10 pm

      This is not a black revolution. This is a progressive revolution.

      The goal has nothing to do with race.

      Even the demands to “abolish the police” – these are not serious requests for change or reform.

      This is about burning everything to the ground and starting over.

      Statues are destroyed to destroy history – the past was irredeemably vile and must be obliterated – our hero’s did not have clay feet, they were truly blackhearted villians.

      There police do not need reform. They need abolition. There are no good police.

      That is the message.

      Nor is this just a message about police.

      The goal is radical transformation of society – into what ? Does not matter. Purportedly 10,000 years of civilization are shit

      Burn it down
      start over.

      • June 25, 2020 4:42 pm

        Dave: Good point. Once “woke” white people joined the assault on U.S. history, it became more of a leftist political uprising than strictly a racial one.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 26, 2020 3:10 am

        I think this is all fairly complex.

        I do not beleive that “woke” whites are “joining” this. I think they are to a significant extent driving it – and I am not specifically talking about Antifa.

        It is important to note this is a very young adult thing.

        I think a part of what is going on is an almost organized pushback to the inroads that Trump and republicans are making with minorities.

        Republican gains – even small ones among minorities are an existential threat to the left.

        Trump traded neo-cons for blue collar workers in 2016.
        I do not think democrats are getting them back.

        But Republicans have been trying to sell minorities on things like school choice for decades.
        There is some evidence that republicans are starting to make progress.

        I think alot of what we are seeing right now is the fracturing of the democratic party.

        I know that everyone is trying to focus this on Trump, but the democratic party is politically unstable right now in a way that the GOP never has been, and it has gotten worse under Trump.

    • June 25, 2020 4:23 pm

      Thanks, Ron. What’s sad is that even pioneering black figures can be “canceled” if their image doesn’t please modern “woke” sensibilities. I’m betting they’d call out Bill Robinson as an Uncle Tom for portraying a kindhearted house slave and dancing with Shirley Temple.

  2. Panos Kakaviatos permalink
    June 25, 2020 12:33 pm

    Very well written, thank you!

  3. Timothy Schoonover permalink
    June 25, 2020 12:41 pm

    What everyone is thinking but no one is saying!

  4. Anonymous permalink
    June 25, 2020 1:30 pm

    I really don’t care, do u?

  5. June 25, 2020 1:54 pm

    In 2015, one of the co-founders of Black Lives Matter, Patrisse Cullors, told a group of community organizers that she and Alicia Garza, another co-founder of BLM were “trained Marxists:”

    “We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk,”

    Cullors’ mentor, Eric Mann, is a former Weather Underground leader, whose organization, the Labor/Community Strategy Center, focuses on “Black and Latino communities with deep historical ties to the long history of anti-colonial, anti-imperialist, pro-communist resistance to the US empire,”
    https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/

    In any case, Marxists are primarily interested in burning down, both literally and figuratively, everything about American society, as founded. They have long professed their preference for race wars, as the best way to destroy the US. Race wars, yes…civil rights, not so much.

    They don’t care what statues they tear down. They want them all down. It has nothing to do with George Floyd, civil rights, police brutality, or any of the rest. That’s not to say that some of the young teen and twentysomething protestors aren’t genuinely there for those reasons, but they’re just ignorant, brainwashed pawns, being used by truly violent, far left, anti-American organizations.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 25, 2020 4:13 pm

      The fundamental problem is not that BLM is marxist.

      It is that it is crypto-marxist.

      Lets have an ideological discussion.

      But that is not the goal.

    • June 25, 2020 4:28 pm

      I’ve heard that the BLM founders are Marxists, Priscilla. Yes, creating division and strife based on racial antagonism is a sure way to undermine the U.S. and provoke revolution. Race has always been our Achilles’ Heel. What our college professors started, BLM intends to finish.

  6. dhlii permalink
    June 25, 2020 2:45 pm

    If you think this is about whiteness – you are wrong.

    This much like Mao’s culture revolution, as well as the destruction by the Taliban and ISIS,

    This is about destroying history.

    This is ideological violence.

    This is the physical manifestation of the 1619 project. It is harder to rewrite history when there are physical symbols that we revered our past.

    This is as Anti-MAGA as you can get.

    This is saying that you can not make america great again – it never was great before.
    That the entirety of the west was never great, that the enlightenment was not great.

    That the past is entirely repugnant and that there is nothing there worth learning from.

    It is also an attempt to hide the past.

    If you do not look back at western history, then you do not compare it to anything else.

    If the american revolution is evil – then the french revolution does not look so bad.

    The rioters, the looters, the mobs in the street, may be doing little more than wilding. They may have little idea about the war of ideas that they are part of.

    But this is not about statutes. It is about history and it is about ideas.

    The clash of ideas is between western enlightenment classical liberalism, and Neo-Marxist nihilist post modernism.

    • June 25, 2020 4:33 pm

      Well said, Dave. Yes, obviously the statue-toppling isn’t just about statues. I emphasized anti-white antagonism; you emphasize anti-West antagonism. The way I see it, they’re pretty much two sides of the same coin. And yes, the radicals’ history-erasing tactics are comparable to those used by ISIS, the Taliban, and, for that matter, all revolutions that have toppled the old order and replaced it with something even more oppressive. (Our own American Revolution was an exception, but I see it as more of a war for independence than a typical class-based political upheaval.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 26, 2020 2:44 am

        I do not beleive that race is nearly as important in what is going on than is portrayed.

        Do not get me wrong – there are alot of angry black people.

        But look at these protests and compare them to the lockdown protests.

        Aside from the fact that armed people protested in capitals completely peacefully.

        There is also a huge age difference.

        The current protests are massively disproportionately young adults.
        WE have educated them badly.

        I think the comparison to the cultural revolution is especially apt. Mao basically unleashed the young to destroy and wreak havoc on the older adults.

        Like the cultural revolution there was ideology in play. But also like the cultural revolution large numbers of participants who did not give a crap about ideology were used by those few who did.

        Priscilla is right about the marxist core of BLM. But the majority of protestors do not know that and do not care.

        But I do think there is one thing different from the cultural revolution.

        This is America. I am deeply suspicious this ends radically differently.

        I know that many polls have Biden with a growing lead.
        And we keep having primaries where moderate Dems are getting their ass kicked by progressives.

        But the special election results are running counter to these.

        CA25 had a double digit swing to the GOP.

        Just a few days ago a republican beat a democrat in a NY congressional special election by something near 30pts. That was a district the GOP lost in 2018, and only won narrowly in 2016.

        Rassmussen has Trump’s approval at 2pts above Obama in 2012.

        I do not think the polls and the press are reading the mood of the people correctly.
        And if the anarchy does not peter out soon the backlash is going to grow.

        The press is fixating on a Covid Spike. But crime is also spiking – 358% in NYC.

        Anarchy and chaos drive people to strong leaders.
        Whatever you think of Trump – Biden is NOT a strong leader.

        I am also very concerned about the political polarization.

        The left has gone way too far. They have coopted the democratic party – which is owned by the left.

        Bernie may not have won the nomination, But democrats are bending knee to their far left flank.

        This does not end well.

      • June 26, 2020 9:57 am

        Dave, you keep living in your dream world that Trump will get reelected. I have said for months, well before Covid, that Biden would win.

        Why? Because Trump is a bully, an asshole and an overbearing, egotistical Yankee from New York that is the epitome of the New Yorkers that many dislike.

        So we now enter our second election with absolutely terrible candidates. Clinton was the bitch that reminded many of their school teacher from hell no one could stand. If you were an independent, you chose Trump because he was less offensive from a personal standpoint.

        Now we have Joe Biden, everyones grandpa. He is the lovable bumbling old man that many can relate to because they remember their gramps. So the ones that saw a bitchy school teacher now see their gramps running and gramps is much more acceptable than the overbearing bully from New York.

        He may not win a landslide victory, but he will change enough votes in N.C., PA, WS, and maybe FL to win outright the popular vote and the electoral vote.

        We can only hope this does not translate to a 60 vote senate. I doubt prince Shumer will go full nuclear as he has seen the results of the partial simple majority on judges. They need to be careful because a supportive change today can bite your butt big in the future.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 26, 2020 12:16 pm

        Ron

        This is not my dream world.

        I am offering an opinion.

        I am aware that it runs counter the national polls.

        I am also offering my evidence as well as my sense of the what follows.

        I may be wrong.

        But there remain alot of conflicting indicators.

        1). Polls: polls showing Biden taking a stronger lead are all registered voters, not likely voters. that is normal at this time, but is skews the results in favor of democrats.
        Most if not all of the recent polls have had large methodological/demographic errors. Democrats were overrepresented in the sample and republicans were under represented – to very large degrees.
        Polls in swing states are showing a bump for Biden recently but much smaller. Further the current swing state polls have Biden doing worse than they had Clinton doing on election day.

        2). Actual elections. Every special election I am aware of where a democrat and a republican have faced off for a federal office has skewed 10-20 points in favor of the republican. Including one in New York a few days ago. These are all seats that were republican seats in the past, but were lost to democrats in 2018. At the same time in democratic primaries we have a tend where progressives are beating moderate democrats. Whether democrats win or lose the house the senate or the whitehouse we are still going to see the most progressive democratic makeup of candidates ever and most of those are in districts that are already owned by democrats.

        3). Biden has lost law enforcement. And he has lost them in a big way. Trump is not merely likely to get a majority of law enforcement votes – but probably a supermajority.
        These are people who vote. Further Trump is getting the votes of their families and many of their friends. Next these are mostly suburban voters – the police do not live typically live in the communities they serve. Beyond law enforcement is other first responders, prison guards and security people throughout the country. Trump may have picked up as many as 2M votes. It is probably that Trump has lost about as many votes – but those votes are primarily among minorities and urban voters in places he was going to lose no matter what.

        4). C19; The effect of C19 through the election is at this point not truly known. There could well be a “2nd wave” in the fall. The current resurgence could continue for a long time.
        But the opposite is also possible, and I think the evidence suggests it is probable.
        If the recent spoke in Red states is not of lasting significance, if it is the result of testing, or almost entirely among young people, and if it fizzles quickly, C19 is not merely going to die as an election issue, but over time Trump will be viewed as the C19 hero, not as the goat.
        That does not have to be the truth. it is just how perception works.

        5) The economy, every economic signal so far indicates a much stronger than predicted recovery. Trump could easily be going into November leading a roaring economy.
        I would further note that the economic impact of C19 has been as much as 3 times harder on blue states than red. The 10 lowest unemployement states right now are all at 5% and are all red. They have not had a large increase from C19. 9 of the 10 highest states are blue and they are all 15%. Swing states are also a big deal. Most of those have democratic governors, and were strongly negatively impacted.
        Regardless, a rising economy is backed in at the momemt. There is very little that can stop that. A big question is how quickly unemployment will come down for low skilled minorities. These are almost always the last to get rehired. That is going to be a very big deal for the 2020 election. I do not think that minority unemployment will recover nearly as quickly. If the perception of better days ahead does not get to the minority communtiy Biden is likely to see Obama numbers of minority voters. But if minorities have a sense that THEIR futures will be better in November Trump could get more minority votes than any republican in decades.
        I think the later is unlikely, but possible.

        6). Crime. Crime is spiking. That is likely to continue through the election. The morale of the police have been negatively impacted. Even if there “blue flu” is not a significant factor, just the moral decline will result in increased crime. Further the police are highly likely to be “gun shy” – less aggressive – crime is already up and will likely stay up through the election. Trump has set himself up as the law and order candidate. Biden had fought for decades for a law an order mantel. He has squandered it. If people become concerned about rising crime as the election approaches – how are the going to vote ? It is not automatic that Trump gets the votes from those who are concerned about crime. He is the incumbent. Incumbents are usually blamed for bad things whether they are responsible or not.
        Regardless, this is likely to be a huge issue for those suburban soccer moms who are a very important demographic.

        7) Chaos. The continued lawlessness of our major cities is going to impact the election. The Left has gone to a great deal of trouble to hide the rioting. the right has gone to alot of trouble to make it look worse than it is. But the most significant issue is that it is ongoing.

        Finally. This election is likely to be a wave election.
        The national polls are suggesting a blue wave. That this is not just going to elect Biden but flip the senate and grow democratic majorities in the house.

        But there is plenty of evidence at the level of congressional districts that this is going to be a red wave.

        Further, what we see right now is NOT what we will have in November. How we feel right now is not likely to be how we feel in November.

        But i think it is highly likely that in November voters are going to be angry and blame somebody. I think if you are sure you know who they are going to blame in November right now, you are smoking crack.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 26, 2020 12:19 pm

        I provided some of my analysis.

        I am only certain of two things: This election is going to be a wave election. It is not going to be a squeeker.

        Progressives are going to make massive gains inside the democratic party regardless.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 26, 2020 1:09 pm

        Ron,

        What do you think the “issues” will be in 2020 ?

        Of those issues, do you expect them to change as the election approachs ?

        I would also note that it has taken impeachment, a pandemic, an economic recession, and race riots to get Biden ahead of Trump.

        My view is this is like Sisyphus pushing the rock up the hill only to have it roll down again.

        C19 will fade, and Trump will get credit.
        Even Cuomo, Wolf, and Whitmer who handled C19 horribly are getting kudos for their handling of C19.

        The economy will recover – and Trump will get the credit.

        Jobs will return – and trump will get the credit.

        Durham indictments are coming – I expect these to be damning, but I do not expect them to effect the election. Though I would note that more bad news for Biden both on XFH and on Burisma has come out recently – but no one is likely to care.

        I do not think the destruction of monuments is playing well for the left.

        CHAZ is not playing well for the left.

        We are getting BLM fatigue.

        I do not see democrats winning the police reform issue – Trump/republican are reasonable. Democrats are not. It is not about the details of their plans, it is that democrats can not distance themselfs from BLM and defund the police.

        Chaos is going to be an issue. Trump’s chaotic nature has hurt him
        but do you think the recent chaos will be attached to him or to democrats ?
        Further Chaos always drives voters to strong men. Biden is just NOT a strong man.

        You do not call grandpa in the midst of race riots and crime.

        There is purportedly some turmoil in the GOP about Trump’s campaign.

        Some of the criticism I think is good. But most is not.
        Attacking Biden right now is fruitless.
        Trump could weep for George Floyd in the center of times square – the press will not cover it.

        A major factor in Trump’s campaign strategy is that he MUST campaign in a way that the press will cover him. It is the only way he can get media attention.

        I have noted before Trump has made more than twice the statements of dismay about Floyd – those do not get covered by the press.

        If you want Trump to behave different – you have to also tell us how that he can get public credit for doing so.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 26, 2020 2:48 am

        It is very instructive to look at the difference between successful and unsuccessful oppressive revolutions.

        I have made those comparisons here before. Regardless we should all be contemplating that – because this is a revolution, and I am not at all sure when it will be over and how it will end.

        We have a serious problem with a large portion of young adults that is not likely to get fixed easily. They have been badly educated and deprived of the critical thinking skills necescary to get through this without violence.

        I would further note that anarchy and chaos are always followed by strong powerful tyranical leaders. Sometimes left more often right.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 26, 2020 2:50 am

        Post modernism is a cultural marxism with the typical marxist class framework replaced by oppression groups.

  7. dhlii permalink
    June 25, 2020 3:02 pm

    “Balance is almost always a good thing. ”

    Yes, we should destroy half as many statues ?

    Sorry Rick,

    Vandalism and destruction are always a bad thing.

    There is no balance here.

    Some in the media have compared this to the American revolution – and there is some real merit in that comparison. Our founders claimed to be pushed to violent rebellion by the infringements on their liberties by a distant king. they rebelled demanding self governance.
    The Boston Tea Party did not end in compromise or balance, it ended in War and the birth of a new country. A country with a self image radically different from any country before. A self made country reveling individualism and liberty.

    Those rioting are demanding a revolution too. They seek to create a new world. That is laudable – if that world is a truly better place to be. This is about the destruction and birth of ideas – not statues.

    No one is seeking balance. Balance is neither possible nor desirable.

    Many things at the moment appear incredibly Orwellian.

    I would ask that you consider that is not an accident.
    We are being pushed toward a new Orwellian dystopia. We can go willingly or we will be forced to.

    There is no option of compromise. There is no balance contemplated.

    • June 25, 2020 4:38 pm

      Come on, Dave… you might be taking your role as resident contrarian a little too seriously. Of course I don’t approve of toppling half the statues. By “balance,” I mean acknowledging areas where blacks still deal with racism — without vandalizing statues, trashing white people or erasing Western civilization.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 26, 2020 2:56 am

        Rick,

        I am directly attacking the premise of the middle way.

        You, this blog, many here, constantly try to sell balance, compromise, the middle as a principle.

        It is not, it is a tool. Often a useful one.

        But whatever the question the answer is no more likely to be in the middle than in either extreme.

        Quite often the correct “answer” is either that of the right, or the left, or some other extreme.

        It is not “the middle”.

        My “moderate” is more choosing the right when they are correct, and the left when they are, and not spliting the baby all the time.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 26, 2020 3:01 am

        Separately, while race remains an issue in this country.

        I do not beleive that racism is causing major problems in this country.
        I can list problems with police.
        I doubt anyone here thinks I am a huge fan of police.
        But I am not accepting this “systemic racism” nonsense.

        We have problems – there not going to be solved by fixating on race.
        That will end badly.

        That plays right into the hands of the “cultural marxists”

        And if we keep heading down that road will will get left or right authoritarianism for real.
        Not the fake news trump kind.

  8. Savannah Jordan permalink
    June 26, 2020 7:42 am

    Beautiful analysis, Rick. Yes, it is primarily woke up whites that are doing most of the damage. I view that as a result of the general weakening of society as it becomes more affluent. We no longer have to face the day to day struggles that a less affluent society must face and there exists an absence of feeling. Hence, we create it through such as actions as described above. With regards to Columbus, I do not see how we can judge the morality of a person who lived approximately 550 years ago. The whole of society was brutal. Middle-aged women were burned at the stake as witches. Polictical opponents were assasinated. In the Ottoman Empre a poorly functioning government employee was executed. People were burned at the stake for reading the bible or having different religious views. These were brutal times and we cannot judge a man by the current day morality. But we can appreciate that he showed extraordinarly courage in setting out on an unknown sea.

    • June 26, 2020 10:05 pm

      Thanks, Savannah. I have some misgivings about writing that it was “sort of OK” for the revolutionaries to erase Columbus as a hero. His achievement was stupendous, after all. He did live in cruel times, but even his contemporaries criticized his excessive cruelty toward the natives. We know that Columbus returned to the island of Hispaniola on his second voyage to find that his entire garrison at La Navidad had been wiped out. I’d have to do some more research to discover whether he mistreated the natives only after the massacre… or whether his mistreatment of them might have caused the massacre.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 1:09 am

        Columbus was traveling to the new world near the start of the Spanish inquisition.
        The treatment of Jews in Spain was no better than native Americans.

        Further though I do not know about Caribbean islanders, the central Americans and south americans engaged in human sacrifice, and slavery was common accross the world at that time.

        We can say Columbus;s treatment of natives was horrendous, but everyone’s treatment of everyone was horrendous, We are only a few centuries from Genghis Khan brutalizing eastern Europe. We are at the beginnings of the protestant reformation a time when the people in the city next door might massacre you because your beliefs were different.

        The united states was not the first place in the world to end slavery. But it was fairly close,
        Slaves were not common in Europe, but they were in European colonies.

        And legal slavery continued in some parts of the world until late in the 20th century, and still continues illegally.

        It is a huge mistake to pretend that Europeans were somehow more immoral at any time than peoples throughout the world at the same time. We did not displace “native americans” because we were uniquely war mongers. But because we were more advanced and therefore more successful at doing so.

  9. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    June 26, 2020 1:05 pm

    I said long ago and many times that if anyone believes that trumps populist movement and its way of combating PC (PC is what “Woke” means) are going to make PC less prevalent and less aggressive they are delusional. Rush and then trump have only made it much worse in the long run. Trump has continued what his good buddy Rush Limbaugh started.

    I hate PC, I think you know that. Dr. Seuss and Mark Twain were racists? Good grief. The further one goes to the left the more they tend to see racism in nearly every person and every event. Dr. Seuss, who wrote the Sneetchs, a children parable about racism has to be called a racist. And the further to the right one is the less they tend to acknowledge racism in any person or event. On the right even Rush Limbaugh, (with his Obama the “Magic Negro” birtherism and a career of similar racial attacks) is not racist in the eyes of many conservatives. Rush is a ^&*%$# racist! There is no shade of grey, simply he is a loud proud inspiration to American racists.

    So, Rush gets a Medal of Freedom at the State of the Union from Trump and now surprise, the populist revolution has backfired and its scaring people who believe that its hard, hard, hard to be white in America, while also believing that if it were not for the MSM fanning the fires of statistically insignificant event blacks and other minorities who be happy with the racist situation. Oh, the Proud Boys have a lot of sympathizers, even some here.

    Well, ironically, Obama’s terms made many people less sympathetic with the things blacks citizens deal with and Trump’s term in office has reversed that, he has made many people much more aware of the things that black citizens endure.

    So Rick, a few questions:

    1.) What percentage of people do you think have pulled down a statue in the recent protests? Is it 0.00001 or 0.0000001 of Americans?

    2.) What percentage of Americans have listened in warm approval to Rush Limbaugh and his undisguised racism?

    3.) What percentage of people do you think approved of Trump giving Rush America’s highest civilian honor?

    4.) What do you believe the ratio is between the people in (1) and the people in (2) and (3)?

    In Russia, a large number of people still have Stalin on a pedestal, it’s the patriotic thing to do in a country where it is a damn good idea to be a superpatriot. In China, it is considered unpatriotic to even mention Tien Mien square. Even American Chinese people are reluctant to admit it happened. In Japan, the rape of Nan King, the abduction of Korean girls to be comfort girls for soldiers, those things have not been much apologized for or much admitted to. Japan is not given to shame over its past.

    I am glad to live in a country where a large number of people confront the ugly events of our past. Its much healthier, although it seems crazy to many Russians and Chinese that we behave this way.

    When the statues of Lenin and Stalin came down is a popular we have had enough uprising did you mourn the damage to history? Personally, I was cheering.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 26, 2020 8:45 pm

      “I said long ago and many times that if anyone believes that trumps populist movement and its way of combating PC (PC is what “Woke” means) are going to make PC less prevalent and less aggressive they are delusional. Rush and then trump have only made it much worse in the long run. Trump has continued what his good buddy Rush Limbaugh started.”

      Yes, if you fight left wing loons it is your fault if they do not wither and die.
      Sorry, Robby, your full of it.

      Whether you like Rush or Trump or …. you do not get to blame the idiocy of the left on others.
      Everyone is responsible for their own words, and their own actions – left, right ….

      If you are shoveling this $h!t that someone else’s words and actions make the PC left worse – you are part of the problem

      I would further note that almost none of these “children” have a clue who Rush is.
      And all of them were broken before Trump.

      These snowflakes were made by our schools and colleges, and now they are young adults and they are behaving exactly as they were taught.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 26, 2020 10:47 pm

        “Whether you like Rush or Trump or …. you do not get to blame the idiocy of the left on others.
        Everyone is responsible for their own words, and their own actions – left, right ….”

        Says the man who has stated 2037 times here over the last four years that the previous actions of the left are to blame for trump.

        Give me a break.

        trump Was a consequence of PC and other excesseses of the left, you have actually been correct about that. And BLM and the protests are a consequence of trump and American racial issues that he and Rush and others have inflamed profitably. The set of one phenomenon being a consequence of another phenomenon stretches back a ways, but it ends at American slavery, that is the beginning of the chain of poison. Slavery was a consequence of greed and evil and the worst parts of human nature. The original American sin.

      • June 26, 2020 11:16 pm

        Roby, And when Biden is elected, nothing will get better because the left is moving further left and the right is moving further right in many cases. The divide is going to continue to get worse. Moderates will not exist except for a couple.I fear that Shumer will take the senate full nuclear with just a simple majority needed for all votes. That also will further divide the country because the minority and moderates in the country will have no voice. Venezuela had a constitution that required a super majority and Hugo Chavez knew the only way he could get complete control was to change their constitution to a simple majority. He was able to get that done and that set them on the path to a dictatorship because he only needed his followers to vote things in. A dictatorship in America is highly unlikely, but a president with a simple majority, leaving so many without a voice, would do nothing to improve our current situation and would divide us even further..

        And Biden is going to be Queen Nancy’s and Prince Shumer puppet. The will pull his stings like an accomplished marionettist.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 2:41 am

        “the right is moving further right”
        They are ? examples ?
        Gay marraige ?

        “The divide is going to continue to get worse.”
        Yes, because the left WANTS us divided. The ideology of modern progressiveness is quite littlerally about amplifying divisions.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 2:26 am

        “Says the man who has stated 2037 times here over the last four years that the previous actions of the left are to blame for trump.”

        Most accurately I have claimed that Trump is the inevitable reaction to your misconduct.

        What do you expect when you call everyone you disagree with a racist, sexist, homophobe, hateful, hating hater ?

        Well, what you should expect is that someone is going to come along who allows your insults to roll off their backs, and fires their own moral hand grenades at you.

        What you should expect is that if lobbing moral hand grenades works for you – then it will work for those you disagree with.

        What you should expect is that the people that you have been calling hateful hating haters will deify the person who comes along and puts you in your place.

        You broke it. Much of what you think is wrong with Trump is probably true. It is also projection. Look in the mirror, he is you.

        “BLM and the protests are a consequence of trump”
        Nope, BLM is just a different form of the grenade lobbing intolerance that brought Trump about.

        Your argument does not even work Chronologically – BLM started in 2013 – during Obama’s presidency. The first BLM race riots – during Obama’s presidency.

        “American racial issues that he and Rush and others have inflamed profitably.”
        So Ofc. Chauvin killed Floyd because Trump or Limbaugh made them do it ?

        You are aware that the number of blacks killed by the police has been DECLINING steadly since the late 80’s ?

        in 2019 there were 9 unarmed blacks killed by white police officers. Of those 4 of the police officers were prosecuted.

        “The set of one phenomenon being a consequence of another phenomenon stretches back a ways, but it ends at American slavery, that is the beginning of the chain of poison. Slavery was a consequence of greed and evil and the worst parts of human nature. The original American sin.”

        This is a stupid argument, it will work forever. It is not repairable.

        Regardless, it is not surprising that Blacks in blue cities feel racially oppressed.
        Because you treat them as inferior.

        I beleive that just like the Irish and Germans and Jews that Blacks are capable of succeeding today. And guess what – blacks who come to the US from africa seem to do fine.
        Aparently having been enslaved 200 years ago changes your genes.

        You are the ones who beleive that blacks are inferior, that they are incapable of succeeding on their own. That the need coddled.

        It should not be surprising that blacks in deep blue cities are doing poorly – you expect them to.

        I would further note that blacks that finish high school, do not do drugs, do not commit crimes. Do not have children before they marry, and do not form families until they can support them do exactly as well as whites who make the same choices.
        Further Whites who do not finish high school, do drugs, commit crimes, have children before them marry and form families before they can support them fail just like minorities making the same choices.

        The vast majority of whites in this country – arrived after slavery. more than 50% of the whites in this country in 1862 were in the north and did not own slaves. Probably little more than 20% of whites in the south owned slaves.

        My personal genealogy is Irish, Irish, German, and Jewish. None of my ancestors had anything to do with slavery. The Irish were treated little better than slaves when they arrived in this country. and little better than slaves in Ireland through to the 20th century. My German ancestors fled from religious persecution in Europe – where many of them were killed for their beliefs. And no ethnicity has been treated as shitty for millennia as Jews.

      • June 27, 2020 12:48 pm

        Dave, individuals that are not moderate righties to far right or Libertarian can not envision a society that reacts to liberal policies in such a way to result in a Trump presidency.

        They can not believe that;
        1) Forced purchase by government of a private product that everyone has to buy through the PPACA legislation,
        2) unfair trade policies that promoted industries moving to China to the point of national security issues as well as costing jobs
        3) climate agreements giving China free reign until 2050 to do whatever they wanted with industrial pollution, but put unfair control on USA output costs billions and jobs,
        4) environmental regulations impacting many negatively like farmers whose land collects water in the wet periods and dries out in the growing season through regulations stating that is wet lands all while the farmer still has taxes on the property,
        5) Idiotic minimum wages demands where one size fits all, except for $15.00 an hour in NYC is poverty while in Mississippi $15.00 buys goes much further
        6) free this, free that costing billions, such as college.
        7) Open borders with state and federal benefits for those entering illegally.
        8) Gun Control

        And there are many more, but when any of those listed above impacted a person personally, it changed their mind about who was on their side. The left can not envision that the right felt as alienated by Obama as they feel Trump is dividing the country today. That is what happens when most people stay in their tribes and hear the same information daily. How wonderful everything was when B.O, was in office and how hateful and divisive everyone is now that Trump is in office.

        All of these issues further divided the country. Today, people can not debate an issue, they are more like Obama when he told John McCain “John the election is over, I am president” when discussing healthcare a a joint meeting with congressional leaders when McCain suggested an item for reform, one of the last the GOP ever held with Obama. Each of these issues today brings arguments not debate. Individuals attracted to each other romantically are repelled when they find their political positions are at odds because moderation and discussion does not exist. Mixed political marriages are becoming less common that mixed racial marriages.

        And how this turns out no one can predict. But my guess is it gets much worse before it gets better and that is over 10+ years.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 4:11 pm

        Robby, and others have refused to debate issues on the merits, instead lobbing defamatory hand grenades as if they are arguments.

        You and I do not agree on many of the issues, including some you have listed.

        You are far more if a Trump conservative than I am – yet Robby thinks I am the right wing nut ?

        Why ? Because I challenge his alunskyite BS, because I will not let him get away with lobbing unsupported allegations of immorality as his sole means of argument.

        The most heinous thing Trump does is defame people.
        But he is pretty tepid in comparison to the media, the left, democrats, Robby.

        We have discussed whether there is anyway our political divide can be bridged.

        We will remain bitterly divided so long as those on the left substitute cries of racism, sexism, homophobia for meaningful argument.

        Your worried about a crushing Biden victory – and I could be wrong.
        But I am expecting a crushing defeat for the left.

        When NYT pulled Cotten’s editorial recomending that Trump invoke the insurection act – a large majority of the country supported doing that.

        Tucker Carlson is bitterly attacking Republicans – even Trump for fiddling while rome burns.

        I already argued that Biden has just sacrified nearly the entire first responded and policing and security vote – and along with their families this is a huge number of votes – most in the regions Trump needs to win.

        New guns sales are up 48% from last year. and the increases is first time buyers, and 40% of those are women.

        Someone who is out buying a gun right now – is voting in November, and they are not voting for Biden.

      • June 27, 2020 4:52 pm

        Yep, I support much if Trumps agenda, but there is much I dont. I think cows will fly before Trump or conservatives will ever support Medicare buy in at any rate for anyone. And supporting any climate agreement would choke the remainder.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 26, 2020 8:48 pm

      Do you think that most of these rioters know who mark twain is ?
      They are clearly clueless about most of the statues they are tearing down – I mean lincoln for christ’s sakes ?

      Do you think Trump or Rush wound them up to burn Washington or to pull down the statues of several abolitionists ?

      I would also suggest you watch the video’s Few if any of those tearing down statues are black. The worst problems we are seeing are from young white usually male woke snowflakes.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 26, 2020 8:59 pm

      Are the proud boys out there beating people up ? Looting ? Burning ? Tearing things down ?

      The MSM is searching high and low for white supremecists and so far zip, nada, zilch.
      Maybe some guy who wanted to kill cops.

      There are BLM and AntiFa graffeti all over. Is that Patriot Prayer trying to false flag antifa ?

      Are there secret members of the KKK who have infiltrated CHAZ that are committing all the rapes and murders ?

      Are there race issues in this country ? Absolutely. But even during impeachment Blacks did not list racism as in the top 10 of problems they faced.

      You want to deal with racism ? Fine, come up with something.
      But teaching our kids that this nation is ireedemably racist to the core, ain’t going to fly.

      Trying to obliterate history isn’t going to either.

      I am currently watching Robert Gates series on roots. It is excellent.

      But Gates and the guests keep saying that so much of our past racism is some deep dark secret that is only recently getting exposed.

      Did you not know about the KKK ? Jim Crow ? that many slave owners impregnated female slaves sometimes raping them ? That rapes of black women by white men continued even to the 50’s ? maybe our snowflakes did not get this part of their education by cultural marxists, but in the 60’s and 70’s I was taught all of that and more. And I still walked away with the understanding that for all its mistakes this country it unique in the world.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 26, 2020 9:15 pm

      “1.) What percentage of people do you think have pulled down a statue in the recent protests? Is it 0.00001 or 0.0000001 of Americans?”
      Does it matter ? Why is nothing being done ?

      Lawlessness breeds lawlessness. Is it OK to destroy things that are not yours ?
      If not, why aren’t you speaking up ?

      “2.) What percentage of Americans have listened in warm approval to Rush Limbaugh and his undisguised racism?”

      0% – before you get anywhere on this you need to prove “undisguised racism”.

      “3.) What percentage of people do you think approved of Trump giving Rush America’s highest civilian honor?”

      I am told Pearl Bailey is a horrid racist – she got the PMF too. Go look at the list.
      There are all kinds of people that someone thinks has a troubled past.

      Barack Obama got the nobel peace prize – that offends the hell out of me.

      “4.) What do you believe the ratio is between the people in (1) and the people in (2) and (3)?”

      Who cares?

      We have lots of problems in this country – Race is among them. LOW among them.

      You are old enough to remember the 60’s That was 10 times as racist as today.

      My parents were raised in the 30’s that was 10 times as racist as the 60’s.

      in 2019 9 unarmed blacks were killed by the police. Of these in 4 instances the police ended up getting prosecuted. of the remaining 5 in most instances the unarmed black person attacked the officer and was trying to take their weapon.

      You want to reform the police – fine, I am with you.

      But you want to sell this NONSENSE that the police or the country is systemically racist, you are full of $h!t.

      You want to pretend there is the slightest justification for the nonsense going on – your full of it.

      How many statues has Rush pulled down ? How many people has he killed ? How many buildings has he Burned ?

      I am not a Limbaugh fan – but I am not interested in these stupid excuses.

      Would you allow your children to trash their rooms – because Tommy down the street said mean things ?

      There is no connection between the things you are trying to connect.

      People are responsible for their own actions.

      Trump Rush and anyone else can be critical of those selling PC bunk – so long as they are selling PC bunk. Those selling PC bunk are responsible for their own words and actions.

      And I have zero interest in idiotic claims that they will just go away if we ignore them.

      Sure, after they have burned everything down.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 26, 2020 10:34 pm

        Racism is not a differential equation or geometry. There is no proof. You know that. Nor is there some bright line, there is a continuum. Magic negro among many of Rush provocations, is far inside the clear racist part of the Venn Diagram. But not to you. Fine, that is who you are. Your denial of the obvious racism of Rush Limbaugh, well denial is what you do, no surprise there. History will remember him for who he was and trump for who he was and all the so whaters and enablers for who they were. You are on the wrong side of history.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 1:57 am

        “Racism is not a differential equation or geometry. There is no proof.”
        BS if you are unable to find some means of defining it and measuring it – it does not exist.

        Your argument is ludicrously stupid. Why don’t I just call you a racist, sexist homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic bigot and a hateful hating hater ?

        If it can not be “proven” – then my claim that you are all those things are njo more or less correct that the same claims against David Duke.

        Regardless, When you accuse another person of immorality the burden of proof is on you.

        If as you claim the accusation you are leveling is unprovable – then do not make it. PERIOD.

        If you are lobbing immorality grenades at other people you are OBLIGATED to prove your claims.

        When you do not the moral failure, the loss of integrity is YOURS.

        “You know that.”
        No I do not. The only legitimate defense when you slander another person is Truth, and the burden of proof is on you.

        “Nor is there some bright line, there is a continuum.”
        Changes nothing.

        “Magic negro among many of Rush provocations, is far inside the clear racist part of the Venn Diagram.”
        Then you can prove it.

        “But not to you.”
        To me racism, sexism, …. are charges that you do not level at anyone else unless you can back them up.

        I am not specifically looking to defend Rush Limbaugh. I am specifically attacking you for slander.

        Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you have strong evidence for the moral accusations you are making. But I doubt it. My guess is that like all on the left, you presume everyone not on the left is racist, sexist, … and you are not.

        #metoo shattered on part of that illusion.
        Right now I do not see people rioting and looting and tearing down statutes is deep red america.

        We are not dealing with Bull Conner in Montgomery. We are dealing with a problem in the most progressive domains in the country.

        “Your denial of the obvious racism of Rush Limbaugh”
        If it is obvious you will be able to prove it easily. But you told me above that racism is not provable – therefore it is not obvious. Or is it self proving ? Accuse someone and therefore they are ?

        “History will remember him for who he was and trump for who he was”
        I do not know about history.
        What I do know is that people who slander others and can not establish the truth of their slander have no integrity. Are not moral.

        “You are on the wrong side of history.”
        You are on the wrong side of morality.

        A large part of what is wrong right now.
        A large part, maybe the most important part of why this nation is bitterly divided,
        is because you and so many like you believe it is OK to call others racist, homophobe, sexist, hateful, hating, hater, just because you do not agree politically.

        That is vile, and the unbridgeable divisions in this country are cause by you and those like you.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 26, 2020 9:16 pm

      So Lincoln and Washington and several abolitionists are the same as Stalin and Lenin ?

    • dhlii permalink
      June 26, 2020 9:18 pm

      Did Stalin and Lenin create a country actually trying to adhere to principles such as these
      “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,”

    • dhlii permalink
      June 26, 2020 9:22 pm

      Neither Rush, nor Trump are anywhere in site in this article.

      This is the left F#$king itself over.

    • June 26, 2020 10:33 pm

      Roby: I was about to settle down to respond to your comment when I saw that Dave already reeled off half a dozen comments in succession. I skimmed them, and he makes some valid points about the destructiveness of the leftist mob, but since I came here to reply to you, let me reply to you…

      Yes, those radicals tearing down the statues are a minuscule percentage of the population, but if you add the leftists who believe that the destruction is “fitting and proper” (and they include a number of my friends, both black and white — especially white), we’re looking at the core of a radical movement comparable to the Bolsheviks — although not nearly as well organized.

      As for Rush Limbaugh… while I tend to see him as a blustering radio entertainer who’s fun to listen to on occasion because he says things we’ll never hear on CNN, I know that his “dittoheads” take him seriously. He inflames white racism, no doubt, but he’s not exactly a KKK grand wizard. Those whites are angry because the conversation on race is totally dominated by the PC left today, with its constant finger-pointing at white people as the cause of all misery since they arrived on these shores. That’s why the statues are toppling, and it makes me angry, too. Today’s whites aren’t collectively responsible for slavery, Jim Crow or police brutality. Nobody but a masochist is going to sympathize with people who tear them down at every opportunity.

      You made an astute observation about the back-and-forth extremist BS that causes backlashes on each side of the divide. It has a great deal to do with why we’re so polarized today, and there isn’t much we can do to fix it as long as most Americans are living in ideological bubbles. I’ve been trying to do my part here, but, alas, hardly anyone in a position of power has noticed.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 26, 2020 11:02 pm

        “As for Rush Limbaugh… while I tend to see him as a blustering radio entertainer who’s fun to listen to on occasion because he says things we’ll never hear on CNN, I know that his “dittoheads” take him seriously. He inflames white racism, no doubt, but he’s not exactly a KKK grand wizard.”

        Rush is fun to listen to? The biggest difference between Rush and KKK grand wizard is that he has gotten rich inflaming racism. There is profit in them thar racists. He is not an entertainer, not a comedian, he is not monty python. He is an actual political and ideological figure and on impetus behind the a good part of the conservative universe. He is an ideological force and an evil one. You lost me at “fun to listen to”.

        “Those whites are angry because the conversation on race is totally dominated by the PC left today, with its constant finger-pointing at white people as the cause of all misery since they arrived on these shores.”

        ???!! You are making excuses for evil. The conversation on race has many more strong inputs than the PC left, including noxious loud voices on the right. Some of those carry out the conversation by gunning down the members of black churches. You are so obsessed (like Dave) with the PC left that that is nearly all you hear.

        You and I inhabit for different universes on race.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 2:37 am

        “The biggest difference between Rush and KKK grand wizard is that he has gotten rich inflaming racism.”
        Again this is something you can prove ? or you are just slandering others for the hell of it.
        You do understand that if you slander someone else and you can not prove it – that it is your integrity that is lost.

        “There is profit in them thar racists.”
        I beleive he has 30M listeners.
        So you are saying that there are 30M racists out there ?

        “He is not an entertainer, not a comedian, he is not monty python. He is an actual political and ideological figure and on impetus behind the a good part of the conservative universe.”
        Possibly true – so what ?

        “He is an ideological force and an evil one.”
        If you are going to claim he is evil – then you are obligated to prove it.
        Further you have connected ideological and evil – which does not surprise me.
        They are the same for you.
        Anyone disagreeing with you is evil
        And again that is why the country is bitterly divided – people like you.

        “You lost me at “fun to listen to”.”
        Have no idea, do not care. Do not listen to him.

        Maybe you are right about him. But I expect you to prove it when you call someone a racist.
        If you can not – then do not make such allegations.
        If you call someone a racist, and you can not prove it – it is you that is evil.

        “???!! You are making excuses for evil.”
        Again – you are accusing the right of being evil. You are obligated to prove it.

        “The conversation on race has many more strong inputs than the PC left, including noxious loud voices on the right.”
        It does ? I do not hear the right running arround accusing people of racism.
        When the right talks about race at all. They want things to be race blind.
        That does not sound very racist to me.

        “Some of those carry out the conversation by gunning down the members of black churches.”

        “You are so obsessed (like Dave) with the PC left that that is nearly all you hear.”
        Because it is the left that actively seeks to divide the country.

      • June 27, 2020 12:14 am

        I’m aware of the dangers of right-wing extremism, believe me. I guess I weigh left-wing extremism more heavily because it’s become almost mainstream now, and virtually obligatory on college campuses and among the enlightened elite. By contrast, I think of right-wing extremism as the gut reaction of uneducated whites. There’s a more insidious element among them — the college-educated white supremacists — that I should weigh as heavily. But they’re still out on the fringes, whereas it’s almost mandatory now to shun figures like Columbus and even Thomas Jefferson. My old elementary school, Woodrow Wilson School, is going to be renamed because Wilson was something of a racist. (Big surprise that a Virginian born before the Civil War would be a racist.) These purity tests are being imposed strictly by the left, and it’s their opinion alone that seems to matter.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 2:49 am

        “I’m aware of the dangers of right-wing extremism,”

        In the past – maybe. Today the MacCarthyites are on the left.

        If the future – who knows ?

        I would note that even historically right totalitarianism results in far less bloodshed than left.

        “I guess I weigh left-wing extremism more heavily because it’s become almost mainstream now, and virtually obligatory on college campuses and among the enlightened elite.”
        At the extreme it is cultural marxism. Closer to the center it is socialism.
        These are the bloodiest ideologies ever.

        “By contrast, I think of right-wing extremism as the gut reaction of uneducated whites.”
        Please explain ? What is it that you think is right wing extremism ?

        “There’s a more insidious element among them — the college-educated white supremacists”
        Example ?

        BTW why are white supremists “right wing extremists” – most white supremecists are socialists.

        “My old elementary school, Woodrow Wilson School, is going to be renamed because Wilson was something of a racist.”
        No he was a huge racist. He was also a democrat and a progressive, and a huge fan of big government.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 1:35 am

        Anarchy is not acceptable – because only a few anarchists are out there.

        Nor is the destruction of statues the core problem. You correctly connect some of your liberal friends, but the fact is that in many ways the entire democratic party is complicit.
        They are not merely standing silent – they are actually afraid to confront this.

        In fact way too much of the country right and left is afraid.

        If you criticize those fomenting anarchy – you will be labeled a racist.

        Which segues me to your Limbaugh critique. Maybe Rush Limbaugh is uniquely racist. I do not know. But I doubt YOU do either.

        And the “problem of the statutes” is not that there is so much racism in the country. It is that the accusation of racism has been weaponized so as to destroy rational discussion.

        As I said before much of the country is terrified right now of being called racist for criticizing those engaged in anarchy.

        That is a far more serious problem than whatever small latent racism remains in this country.

        The only people able to call out what are essentially a form of terrorists, are those with thick enough skin that they do not care about being called racist – people like Trump and Limbaugh.

        If you think Limbaugh is racist – make your case – I will listen. But I am very tired of weaponizing PC insults like racist, sexist, homophobic, hateful hating hater without evidence or based on political differences.

        I do not agree with Trump’s immigration policies. I agree even less with those of democrats.
        But they are not “racist” – and to the small extent them might be – Trump prefers brown people from India, to brown people from central america. The US has about 1M legal immigrants per year. about 4,000 of them are white.

        If you are claiming political differences are bigotry – you are avoiding making the argument for your political choices.

        It has been repeated ad nauseaum at the moment, but the screams of systemic racism are coming from cities and states that are democratic, that have had democrat governments for 50 years at least, the majority of which have black mayors, and black city counsels, and black police chiefs. Often they have disproportionate numbers of minorities among their police forces.

        If this country is systemically racist, there is no escaping that the worst racial problems exist in the political domains controlled by the left.

        Just as we discovered with the #metoo movement – the left is not immune, if anything the problems of racism are worse on the left.

        I do not know if Rush Limbaugh is racist. But I do not believe you do either. I think that you are assuming that about both him and his “ditto heads” without actual evidence – because you believe that those on the far(ish) right are automatically racist, sexist, homophobic.

  10. dhlii permalink
    June 26, 2020 3:37 pm

    So how does this play out as it continues ?

  11. June 27, 2020 11:15 am

    Interesting perspective. And when you have California and Texas both with significant increases in cases, political actions have little control on peoples actions. Remove politics and see if people move closer together in everything.

    https://www.journalnow.com/z-no-digital/thomas-boswell-the-price-of-selfishness-america-cant-act-like-a-team-and-it-might/article_baeaf59f-7382-5034-8000-3a7a03eb0fd0.html

  12. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    June 27, 2020 11:15 am

    Sorry Rick, you sound a lot like Dave, without his over the top closed minded obsessiveness.

    The site is mostly just a right wing gripe session. Regressive. That includes you. Talking with you and Priscilla and Dave is pushing me left. Talking with you guys is making me realize how strongly I do not want to be in your group. I want future events to go against regressive values. The right wing morality that most on this site defend (while reacting in disgust and terror to any attempt to improve the actually existing deep injustices in America), well, it makes me ill.

    After my conversation here yesterday I thought quite hard last night about the incredible paradox of the US. This is a country that had the lofty principles, the boldness and imagination, and the talent and courage to create a Declaration of Independence and Constitution full of lofty principles, a fairly small group of revolutionaries that changed and improved the world with the democracy they crafted. At the same time it is a country that developed its economy and its territory using the most immoral and horrendous tools, slavery, genocide, and then when we got strong enough, gunboat imperialism. These are horrendously ugly tools but they are also very effective. The most brutal and technologically advanced in war culture will triumph judging by history. We have been that in spades, while spouting our lofty principles. And the American experiment has turned out very well in many ways, its a paradox of huge proportions. There is much good in America despite the presence of great evil in our roots.

    I don’t actually spend much time usually dwelling on the dark side of America. My life is a sort of near utopia that has been paid for by the American past. I am incredibly fortunate, I live in the light beautiful part of the American reality. Why should I spend my time dwelling on the cost in blood, cruelty, and utterly immorality that made a mockery of the fine words of the founders? (And it started with the founders themselves.) Actually thinking about this dark past and the darkness that still exists now is what the left does and the regressive right hates it and is terrified of it. But its actually very necessary because the cancer is still in us. We are not Russia, we are not China, we can freely discuss our ills. But, if we are the culture of trump and Limbaugh and the proud boys we do not deserve to thrive and continue. I don’t think we are as a whole trump and limbaugh, we are better than that and thank god.

    You may include me, Rick, in the group who is “tearing things down” if that is how you see my desire to be honest about our faults and improve our still large moral weaknesses and injustices. Actually, I think that history is on the side of people like myself at the moment, change is in the works.

    In my opinion, None of you here, with the exception of Ron, would have been part of overthrowing any of the original sin of the US. Not in the 1800s and not in the 1960s and not now. You would all have been satisfied with the status quo and viewed the overthrow of that order as chaos and destruction. You are a group of regressives. You would have seen the abolitionists as trouble makers and the Civil rights movement as a mob. You will no doubt strongly disagree, but I have read the words of each of you over many years and if I judge you by your words that is who this group is (again, Ron excepted).

    If I had to choose between the path of the PC warriors and the path of people like you and Priscilla and Dave, who all in various degrees repeat the philosophy of the Proud boys, if not their tactics, I would grit my teeth and join the PC warriors.

    Dave is a right wing crank in much of what he believes, although he does have his actual distinctions. But he is not a typical representative of anything, he represents no one but his own obsessive wiring and his programmed distorted certainty in his correctness. He is not one of the fundamental types who contribute to the American illness. On the other hand Priscilla represents the ideas of today’s GOP, trump and Limbaugh, White chauvinism. And you sound much like the two of them.

    Ron believes in Libertarian and Conservative ideology and is as allergic to the left in any form as anyone here, (everyone but myself that is). But he also has a basic balance in his ability to see evil and bad actors regardless of party or ideology that makes him a good and rational person to talk with.

    This site is not for me, (although I will admit it has made me think about my own rather careless acceptance of my own good fortune in the American system that came to me at birth.) I don’t fit TNM and it does not fit me. I wish I DID believe in progressive economics, they have their basic hearts and values in the right place in many ways but are naive and ignorant in many ways and could not run anything without breaking it. As well many of them are thoroughly obnoxious. The right on the other hand can run an economy and do practical things but taken as a group they all too often defend terrible and destructive values and perpetuate them.

    I think that the future will favor some milder form of the left over the regressive elements of the right and that is happening at this moment. We will see.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 12:14 pm

      With respect to this countries past.

      Is it uniquely worse than other nations ?

      Is it unique worse than other nations at the time ?

      Is it something you were not taught about ?

      Is it so great as to overwhelm the positives ?

      Is there something that can be done about it ?

      I dispute the significance of some of your analysis.
      But the actual facts of the past are not in dispute.

      And while we should not forget.
      And we especially should not forget that all the evil in our past was driven by government.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 12:17 pm

      We know what the left wants – they are pretty open about their demands.

      But you bandy phrases like regressive right and that they are terrified of the past.
      Why is the right regressive ?

      Honestly Robby I think you are clueless outside your own bubble.

      You say the right is terrified of the past – who is tearing down statues ?

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 12:25 pm

      What the US has done and continues to do to “native americans” is near genocide.

      I would note that they are being destroyed today by the nanny state.
      If you need an understanding of how government destroys hope, and oportunity and creates dependence and despair – look at modern government dealings with indians ?

      How is what we do today not worse than the japanese internment ?

      As to “US Imperialism”
      Outside of this continent while were were less than perfect in places like the Philipines,
      and you can read Mark Twains excoriations of american imperialism.

      The US is not an never was an imperial power, and your gun boat diplomacy is mostly mythical.

      We vanquished a weak and dying empire – Spain, on pretextual grounds, and temporarily held onto small parts of her empire after it collapsed.

      At the time the US was figuring out what to do with Cuba and the Philipines,
      Europe was carving up africa, and parts of asia.

      Are you unable to grasp the differences ?

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 12:29 pm

      The left is not trying to be honest about out faults.

      It is trying to leverage past faults repeatedly to destroy what they do not like, to Destroy what is good.

      And in what world is tearing down history being honest about it ?

      You have listed many bad things about US history – are they hidden secrets that you found only with the aide of BLM ?

      Those in this country who are blind to the mistakes of our past, are those who are blind to everything.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 12:35 pm

      What is “right wing morality” ?

      What are the moral principles that are unique to the right ?

      Morality is neither right nor left.

      Wrong is wrong.

      I doubt we disagree much regarding the immoral aspects of this countries past.

      Where is it you think there is a moral divide in the country ?

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 12:43 pm

      “If I had to choose between the path of the PC warriors and the path of people like you and Priscilla and Dave, who all in various degrees repeat the philosophy of the Proud boys, if not their tactics, I would grit my teeth and join the PC warriors.”

      Back to slander and defamation I see ?

      I doubt you know $h!t about the philosophy of the Proud boys.

      Regardless, the tactics you are seeing increasingly being used by the right today are those of Alinsky – the political Clausewitz of the left.

      You do not like being on the receiving end of your own tactics.

      And that is what I mean by “You created Trump”.

      So long as the left – just as you have done right here, continues politics by defamation, they should expect that eventually those on the right would do the same.

      Trump is nothing more than the left in a mirror.

      And here you are once again engaged in slander and Priscilla and I are supposed to what ?
      Kiss your ass and confess to being racist or whatever other crimes we have committed in your imagination ?

      This is simple Robby, so long as you continue to use baseless slander as your means of arguing I am going to call you out on YOUR immorality.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 12:48 pm

      “You may include me, Rick, in the group who is “tearing things down” if that is how you see my desire to be honest about our faults and improve our still large moral weaknesses and injustices. Actually, I think that history is on the side of people like myself at the moment, change is in the works.”

      How well did that work in the french revolution ? For Lenin ? For Mao in the Cultural revolution ? For Pol Pot ? For the Taliban ?

      Please name some instance ever where “tearing things down” has worked ?

      History is not on your side.

      I am hoping this is a Lockdown driven temper tantrum that will fade quickly.
      Because there is no good alternative.

      It does not matter whether chaos drives us left, or right, it always drives us to toltarainism.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 1:06 pm

      “Dave is a right wing crank in much of what he believes”
      How so ?

      Robby, I think you are completely clueless about the right. You are like Obama with the delusion that the right is all extremists who have no values beyond guns and bibles.
      But that is typical of the left.

      “his programmed distorted certainty in his correctness.”
      You are certain of your correctness you have zero problems defaming 3/4 of the country.
      You do not bat an eye doing so.
      You condemn Limbaugh, Priscilla, me, Proud Boys, and all our values and philosophy.
      And yet you know nothing about any of us.

      I have been crystal clear about my foundational principles – and yet after years – you do not know that they are.

      I honestly do not know what yours are – because you never offer any principles.

      But you are so much more certain that you are right than I, that you are OK with slandering people you know little or nothing about.

      I doubt the “proud boys” are “good people” – but I am certain you have no idea what their philosophy is. Yet you have no problem calling much of the country moral excrement – without knowing a thing about them. Without knowing what you are talking about.

      “He is not one of the fundamental types who contribute to the American illness. On the other hand Priscilla represents the ideas of today’s GOP, trump and Limbaugh, White chauvinism. And you sound much like the two of them.”

      Lots of slander – but no substance.

      How do I contribute to “The American Illness” – and what is that illness.
      I do not accept that this country is systemically racist as an example.
      But in rejecting that assertion – I am stating that I do not think YOU are systemically racist.
      The riots the chaos the violence – and the policing that it is in response to are all in the bluest of the blue parts of this country.

      It is not Limbaugh country that has all the police killings of unarmed blacks.
      It is not in proud boys land that blacks are being stopped and frisked
      it is not in libertarian that the looting and rioting are occurring.

      If those “tearing things down” are right – their persecutors are not “the proud boys” or “limbaugh” or “right wing extremists” – they are YOU. They are the left.

      If we have “institutional racism” it is not in Selma, or Montgomery. It is right in YOUR cities.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 1:12 pm

      “I wish I DID believe in progressive economics, they have their basic hearts and values in the right place in many ways”

      “You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?”
      Matthew 7:16

      You are unable to grasp this simple truth.

      You defame people who if not grapes and figs are not thorns and thistles, and you celebrate those who are all thorns and thistles and claim “their hearts and values are in the right place”

      BS.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 27, 2020 1:19 pm

      Robby,

      your problem is not with this site.

      “Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.”
      Leo Tolstoy

      “I’m starting with the man in the mirror
      I’m asking him to change his ways
      And no message could have been any clearer
      If you wanna make the world a better place
      Take a look at yourself and then make a change”
      Michael Jackson.

    • June 27, 2020 2:32 pm

      Roby, it is not Rick or this site specifically. There have been many who come, comment and get overwhelmed by Daves excessive number of comments. One can come comment, get in a discussion and go silent, but then their email is overwhelmed. So they have a choice. Continue occasionally commenting or choosing to leave and not have to constantly clear messages. Those that leave are the moderates that want to comment and not get into ideological extended debates.

      But make no misstake, I would vote for a moderate democrat over Trump in a heart beat. But has there been a moderate democrat since Bill Clinton? If Clinton, the 1990’s Clinton was running against Trump, he would get my vote!

      What may be lost in my arguments is I support freedom and fairness. I support Medicare buy-in, at market rates, with PPACA subsidies used for MBI and commercial, just like Medicare and Medicare advantage. I support this only without any mandates! Compstition! I support getting rid of second class health insurance, Medicaid, using that money for MBI or commercial.

      I support environmental and climate agreements that place EQUAL responsibility on all nations, not that crappy agreement in Paris giving China free reign until 2050.

      I support a minimum wage, but based on an area wage index, meaning it may be $22.00 in San Francisco and $11.00 in Butte Montana, also with entry level exceptions for a lower requirement based on position and age ( ie summer jobs for teens!)

      And I support Dreamer legislation, along with a complete rewrite of immigration, but including a change to birthright citizenship.

      And I have other positions on other issues based on logic, freedom, fairness and government partnerships vs government ecicts.

      If this is right wing ideology, I make no apologies.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 4:25 pm

        I doubt Robby’s problem is the volume of my posts.

        I would bet his problem is that I am calling him out for lobbing accusations of racism and other hate without backing them up.

        I do not follow Limbaugh. Maybe Robby can make his claim that Limbaugh and his 30M regular listeners are racist white supremacists.

        But I doubt it.

        We get what Robby is doing all the time – and I am fed up with it.

        The biggest problem facing our country right now is not “racism” – it is false accusations.

        I share Robby’s wish to improve many things about our country.

        But I am more likely to be able to have a reasoned debate on the facts and issues with Limbaugh or Alex Jones than with Robby.

        Robby has no interest in the issues. He claims that I am afflicted with unjustified rigid beleif in my own correctness. Robby is so certain of his own correctness – he does not to argue, he can just jump to calling anyone who disagrees and racist.

        And Robby is no different from the PC crowd he claims to dislike .

        The bitterness and conflict will get worse until the left backs away from false moral accusations as the cheap means to get their way.

      • June 27, 2020 6:53 pm

        Dave, it is not Roby whom I address concerning volumes of post. It is those that have come, commented a few times, been bombarded with responses and left. That is their choice. They do not choose to have e-mails overrun their in-box and trying to follow anything on WordPress is a complete disaster. Whoever created that monster did not have discussions in mind when doing it.

        So what we have is two regulars, one regular, but skips a few days, one that comes, discusses and is gone for a month-6 weeks and thats it, except for those that get Rick’s articles, they comment, but are not set up to get any responses. Jay has left so I do not expect to see him comment anytime soon.

        I would like to see more random thinking on various issues, but in this day and age, that is impossible on the internet. Everyone migrates to where they are comfortable and can agree on everything without debating and supporting thoughts.

        I am just bull headed enough and have always enjoyed a good debate (or argument as my mom called it), so I read what I want and just do a mass delete when I don’t.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 28, 2020 12:24 am

        “Dave, it is not Roby whom I address concerning volumes of post. It is those that have come, commented a few times, been bombarded with responses and left. ”
        When Have I bombed a newcommer ?

        “I would like to see more random thinking on various issues, but in this day and age, that is impossible on the internet. Everyone migrates to where they are comfortable and can agree on everything without debating and supporting thoughts.”

        I would disgree. You can get disparate views on https://jonathanturley.org/

        But again we see the left absent ideas and completely engaged in defamation.
        There a few right wing trolls too.

        But everywhere I go one thing is near universal.

        The left almost never addresses issues, and almost always spews unsuported moral accusations.

        I can find some on the right who do the same, but most on the right even though I often disagree with them are like you – capable of having an actual debate on the issues.

        Often disagreement gets to the point where there is no where further to go – that happens between us often.

        But it is still a debate on the issues.

        There is little or no name calling, certainly none of this nonsense of calling everyone who disagrees a racist.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 27, 2020 4:33 pm

        “What may be lost in my arguments is I support freedom and fairness.”

        Mutually exclusive – pick one, you can not have both. Frankly fairness is unatainable and likely undesirable.

        “I support Medicare buy-in, at market rates, with PPACA subsidies used for MBI and commercial, just like Medicare and Medicare advantage. I support this only without any mandates! Compstition! I support getting rid of second class health insurance, Medicaid, using that money for MBI or commercial.”
        Mire government no matter how you do it will make things worse not better.

        “I support environmental and climate agreements that place EQUAL responsibility on all nations, not that crappy agreement in Paris giving China free reign until 2050.”
        Not governments business.

        “I support a minimum wage”
        The MW is “systemically racist” it precludes low skilled workers from getting their first job.
        It is a price control, they never work.
        Why are we talking about things we know are bad ideas ?

        “And I support Dreamer legislation, along with a complete rewrite of immigration”
        Fine
        “but including a change to birthright citizenship.”
        Absolutely not.
        The elimination of birth right citizenship has created for Europe racial problems that are far worse than the US. Birth right citizenship confines all immigration conflicts to actual immigrants.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 27, 2020 9:01 pm

        Nope Ron, that is moderate ideology and music to my ears. Thanks.

      • June 28, 2020 10:03 am

        What’s weird. Roby, is that I am in agreement with the positions that Ron just outlined 95% of the time, yet you persist in labeling me as an alt-right racist nationalist, simply because I voted for a candidate that I, personally, believed held positions that would stop the increasingly rapid decline of our culture and economy.

        I also believe that the current Democrat Party, has been almost thoroughly transformed by a leftist ideology (America is bad and racist at its core and needs to be remade, root and branch) and that the Republican Party has been weak and unwilling to protect the Constitution and/or the laws of the land, particularly if it would take some courage to do so.

        Regretably, it has come to pass, that anyone who attempts to justify their vote (past or future) for a President who has pointed out that the U.S. is 1) not the source of evil in this world 2) does not need to be fundamentally transformed into a “democratic socialist” nation and 3) has, over the years, allowed the American republic to stray ever farther from its founding principles, is somehow a danger to that Republic,

        Your condemnation of me has nothing to do with my beliefs, and everthing to do with how I vote. For years, you have come to this site, read my comments outlining my positions, some of which have evolved over time, and then conveniently ignored the fact that we agree on many basic issues, yet disagree on how best to keep the best elements of the American experiment alive.

        The reason that this country is being torn apart has nothing to do with true moderates like Rick, or with thoughtful conservatives like me. Nor, frankly, does it have to do with honest liberals like you.

        It has to do with the increasing tribal hatreds that have been leveraged, by America’s enemies, both foreign and domestic, for the pupose of destroying everything that has made the country great. And, lest you accuse me of pushing out a simplistic MAGA doctrine, for the purpose of defending Donald Trump, I remind you that I have long agreed with those who argue that the radicalization of our institutions ~ particularly education ~ would eventually pose the greatest threat to our democracy and to our way of life.

        Trump may be a very imperfect man, but he represents what many believe is the last line of defense of the Constitution. Perhaps his patriotic views are too simplistic for you ~ I get that. Liberals (including me, when I was one) have long laughed at those rubes who believe in God and Country.

        I think that there is always room, in any real democracy, for dissent and iconoclasm. In a functioning system, dissenting ideas promote needed change.

        In a broken system, it promotes chaos and violence.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 28, 2020 12:30 pm

        Priscilla

        He beleives I am an alt-right racist and I Do NOT support many of these policies and did not vote for Trump.

        The left does not use rationality.

        As more information comes out Obama is rapidly heading towards the worst president ever.

        He is now clearly involved in deliberately sabotaging his successor, and though not yet proven it is plausible to believe that he completely directed the effort.

        He was TOLD that Flynn’s call was “legit” and that all allegations against Flynn had proved false – and he still directed the investigation to continue and that information not be shared with the incoming president and his team.

        What people keep missing about the Flynn mess is that they HAD TO get rid of Fynn.
        As NSA they were required to inform him of XFH/XFR and he was going to go ballistic and he was going to both investigate and clean house inside the intel community and expose the DOJ/FBI.

        But for Robby Obama is still a saint, and Trump a demon.

        We survived Obama. We will survive Trump, if we have to we will survive Biden.

        Everyone is worried about extremist right violence – though so far their has been none.

        The should be worried about non-extremist white violence.

        When anarchy and chaos prevail people legitimately take control themselves.

        Regardless, Robby like the entire left has no moral compass.
        He has no means of determining what is right and wrong except his emotions.
        That leads to bad and dangerous choices.

        I have taken on Robby and other on moral grounds.

        I am not happy about that.

        I warned Robby about that long ago.

        We all make mistakes on occasion about facts.

        Making moral accusations about others is very different.

        You can say someone is wrong without saying they are a liar, a racist, a homophobe, a sexist, a hateful, hating hater.

        When you defame another – one of you is not moral.
        If you do no more that lob accusations – the presumption is against you.
        Worse, if you are proven wrong – then your are immoral.

        I have defended individual rights all my life.
        I have defended the right of the KKK and Nazi’s to march.
        I have defended communists from MacCarthites,
        I have defended burning the flag,
        I have defended gay rights, and those of other minorities.

        I am very angry as I watch people who I stood up for now persecuting others.

        I will be happy to discuss the issues with anyone.

        No one has been a stronger advocate of police reform here than I have – no one.

        But reform is not abolish, nor is it demonize, villify, demoralize.

        But the police are the line between order and chaos.

        If they fail, they will be replaced by other “men with guns”.

        How much does it matter whether those are from the extreme left or the extreme right ?

      • June 28, 2020 12:37 pm

        Priscilla, your opening comment made me wonder how could we get Rick to create and post a “survey” of critical issues that everyone that reads Ricks articles might respond to, not just those that follow comments.

        I say that because Roby called me conservative, he has labeled you very conservative and then both you and him responded agreeing with my comment on where I stand on just a few critical issues.

        Now Dave disagreed with all if them. But the fact remains that moderate lefties and moderate righties have much in common and can compromise resulting in good outcomes. Its just the extremes like Jay and Dave that drive the deep divisions.

        And I base my thinking on good decisions because we have choices. For instance, we can keep PPACA, go full governmental or some form of a combination. We WILL NEVER go back to no government involvement that is Daves solution.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 28, 2020 4:39 pm

        “Now Dave disagreed with all if them.”
        All ?
        I do not usually disagree with ALL of what you say.

        I would further note that agreement and disagreement are relative.

        I disagree with Trump and you on Trade and immigration.
        But I can live with your positions easier than those of Obama or Clinton or Biden.

        “But the fact remains that moderate lefties and moderate righties have much in common and can compromise resulting in good outcomes. Its just the extremes like Jay and Dave that drive the deep divisions.”

        I disagree with your whole premise

        There is a radical difference between my discussions with you and Priscilla and usually Rick, and those jay and robby.

        We discuss issues – sometimes we insult each others arguments – but I have not called you a racist, hatefull, hating hater, and you have not similarly insulted me.

        You have sometimes called my arguments stupid, and I have called yours idiotic.
        But neither of us tends to read that as a personal insult.

        Those on the left – and increasing even the supposed moderate left.

        I doubt Robby and Jay are antifa members.
        Do not argue facts, they do not argue issues.

        They attack the person of those who disagree.
        It is extremely rare to have Robby address an issue. i do not recall Jay ever addressing an issue.

        All discussion with Jay and Robby ultimately becomes about morality – because all they want to discuss is the purported immorality of others.

        That is true of the far left, as well as the moderate left.

        I do not think that either Jay or Robby are far left.

        I also do not they have sufficient principles to anchor them politically or otherwise.

        “We WILL NEVER go back to no government involvement that is Daves solution.”

        Never is a long time. We have been going towards less government.

        We will inevitably move towards less govenrment – either by choice or by failure.

        Why is the medical arena different from policing ?
        Should the left get their way with policing – it will be inevitable that we end up with more vigorous policing than today. The failure of bad ideas usually drives us strongly in the opposite direction.

        But i would prefer to move slowly in the right direction.

        Chaos does not always drive us the opposite direction.
        Mostly it drives us towards strong leaders who impose their will forcefully.

      • June 28, 2020 6:16 pm

        Dave, I posted 6-7 things in response to his saying I was some kind of conservative. Not exactly know the exact adjective. But you responded from my recollection that you did not agree with any and gave your reasons.

        I was not saying we did not agree on anything, just those listed.

        And yes, never is a long time, so replace that with ” in my remaining.lifetime”

        There are many things we agree on like health care insurance. But I know your position on healthcare legislation has a very slim chance of getting into legislative debate, let along passed. So lets say we define Obamacare as Charcoal gray paint and what you want is white paint. Few legislators are going to buy white paint. But there is a chance that people dont like the current color and legislators are willing to mix in some white. My Medicare Buy In, with market rates defined by insurance actuaries, with current Bamacare subsidies, no mandate, Medicaid subscribers and money shifted to MBI to eliminate inferior poverty level insurance in many states and people can choose to buy anything or nothing is a mix of black and white. The gray we get is better than the Charcoal Gray and a ton better than pure black government run health care.

        And my description of your positions should not be “extreme”. They are “purist” where mine is a crossbred. (Can we call things “crossbreds” or is that a racist term now?)

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 1:20 am

        Medicare buy-in is probably worse than PPACA. Why am I going to go from charcoal gray to black.

        Regardless it does not matter.
        Medicare is already “bankrupt” and soon enough it will fail.
        Why would you want to get there faster ?

      • June 29, 2020 1:58 pm

        Dave, either you only see what you want to see, or you have no idea what actuarial set market rates for subscribes means. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept reason #2.

        Actuarial set market rates uses insurance experts to determine future expected costs and provide premiums to cover those anticipated costs. Then insurance companies add to that any additional amounts they can under state and federal regulations.

        So, under my plan, Medicare would hire independent actuaries, not some government lifer to determine expected costs, with premiums set at that level. Under my plan, the law would require the premium resets each year to cover projected costs, as well as recoveries for excess expenses from previous years. So Medicare “Part P” (Public Option) would be completely separate from Parts A,B,C or D and would have its benefit basis using the current Medicare plan benefits.

        So now Medicare P is available, Commercial is available, they compete, and those with best benefits and cost survive. And No Mandate! If Commercial A wants to drop subscribers when an adverse occurrence happens, the patient has options.

        And another benefit in my plan. Medicaid, who everyone thinks is gods gift to the poor, would be shifted to MBI, with the current dollars and subscribers shifted to MBI since Medicaid is second class healthcare. Anyone analyzing treatment patterns will find Medicaid patients getting lower cost treatment than patients with other insurance.

        Now whats the chance of anything happening like I propose.
        My thoughts.
        MBI…45%
        Premiums set by independent actuarials..25%
        Premiums automatically reset each year set by acturials..15%
        No mandate..10%
        Medicaid transferred to MBI..3%

        So right now I believe there is a 55% chance that PPACA will be revised by the next congress to address the issues that allowed Trump to undermine legislation and make PPACA more admin proof than the current version.

        So you dont get white, I dont get gray and American freedoms and liberties when it comes to choice of buying a product or not gets screwed.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 6:14 pm

        “Dave, either you only see what you want to see, or you have no idea what actuarial set market rates for subscribes means. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept reason #2.”

        When ever has government actually managed to make any of this hybrid crap to work.

        Regardless you can not set rates by market means without markets.

        We already have a problem with market rates as they heavily subsidize Medicare and medicaid. How will that improve with Medicate Buy in ?

        I am not interested in a debate about the details of “your plan”.

        Please tell me what the odds of getting “your plan” implimented – even if I agreed that in theory it might work ?

        I am thoroughly unineterested in republicans who think they can make the same idiotic mistakes as democrats – but not fail because they will stir in some “magic market” nonsense on the side.

        If you want markets – just have real free markets.

      • June 29, 2020 6:29 pm

        Dave “I am thoroughly uninterested in republicans who think they can make the same idiotic mistakes as democrats – ”

        Well that goes both ways .I am thoroughly uninterested in Libertarians who think they can undo all the idiotic mistakes made by democrats and republicans–

        So you have a choice. If your uninterested in my positions to compromise on legislation, then delete my comments and shut up. If your not interested, then I am not interested in your thinking either. We dont need to be wasting time and flooding everyone email with ” uniterested” comments.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 7:34 pm

        “well that goes both ways .I am thoroughly uninterested in Libertarians who think they can undo all the idiotic mistakes made by democrats and republicans–”

        Fair point.

        “So you have a choice. If your uninterested in my positions to compromise on legislation, then delete my comments and shut up. If your not interested, then I am not interested in your thinking either. We dont need to be wasting time and flooding everyone email with ” uniterested” comments.”

        I do have choices – those are some of them.

        Continuing as i am is one too.

        Regardless, Why do you expect that what you propose will ever make it to law ?
        And if it does – why will it work as you have described ?

        You claim my answers are politically unrealistic.
        Why aren’t yours ?

        As you note govenrment actions are nearly always compromises.

        As I have argued before – it is often better to have a stupid solution that fails and we hopefully get rid of it, than to have something bad but not quite a total failure that lasts forever.

      • June 29, 2020 8:43 pm

        OK time line.

        Roby said subways something about me conservatism.
        I offered thoughts on my moderate views
        Roby agreed.
        You comment to the negative on all of them
        I supported my moderate positions again.
        You said your not interested.
        I said I was not interested in your never to be achieved removal of govt
        Now you ask what the chances of my positions getting into law

        So go back and read my comments. I gave a percentage, which makes no difference. Tobsay it started n, those were examples to should I am not a right wing extremist even though I support much of what Trump has done!

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 2:57 am

        I agreed with you on dreamers, but not birthright citizenship.
        On the rest you can address my critiques or not.
        They are not personal.

        I do sometimes get frustrated by your “I am for limited government, except a long list of things which is ultimately everything” followed by trashing my position as politically impossible.

        Turn about is fair play.

        Beyond the technical objections to your list,

        You and I both know they will never get through the political process unchanged.

        We disagree. I am not inspired to post a multi-volume dissertation on everything I think is wrong with your proposals.

        I would think that would make you happy.

      • June 30, 2020 12:34 pm

        Dave “I do sometimes get frustrated by your “I am for limited government, except a long list of things which is ultimately everything” followed by trashing my position as politically impossible.”

        I am a realist. I am for small government. Would I have supported PPACA, no. But small government did not rule. Big, centralized government won out. It was passed in March 2010, over ten years ago! And it is STILL LAW today!!

        So I “realize” that a complete repeal will not happen. I just list what I think is a good compromise. You dont accept compromise. You want complete repeal. You also want repeal on Medicare and Medicaid that has been law for 52 yrs.

        I want a revision to immigration law because I accept states and federal government will not repeal welfare support for illegal immigrants or their American born infants/kids.So I offer an idea to revise the law that recognizes this. You want open borders and no support programs.

        I also only make these specific positions known only when that subject is being discussed or it is required such as my response to Roby . You make your positions known during comments specific to the discussion or in ones ripe with A.D.D..

        So we have different responses in handling “small” govt and in commenting about it.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 1:03 pm

        “I am a realist. I am for small government. Would I have supported PPACA, no. But small government did not rule. Big, centralized government won out. It was passed in March 2010, over ten years ago! And it is STILL LAW today!!”

        Maybe, but between Obama whittling away at it to save it. the courts whittling away at it, and trump and republicans whittling away at it, there is very little of it left.

        Republicans should quit bitching about it,
        Instead of calling something a PPACA repeal, just put forth a new plan that further brings the free market into healthcare and either gets rid of or makes optional the last bits of PPACA.

        Regardless how ell did PPACA work out ?

        Regardless, no a complete repeal may not happen, but fundimentally it is nearly gone anyway.

        Your proposal makes things worse not better.
        It does not get rid of the tiny bits of PPACA left,
        But it does further stress private health insurance.

        You can not get prices down using actuaries.
        You can not get them down with price controls – there is little in economics that is more solidly proven than that price controls do not work.

        There is only one thing that will assuredly make prices drop long term without F’ing up other things – that is free markets.

        You say your a realist.
        Actual free markets might not be politically possible.
        But nothing else is going to work.
        Everything else will assure cost and complexity rise.

        It is not being a realist to push something that we know will fail.
        It is not being a realist to push something that we know politicians will morph into something different from what you propose.

      • June 30, 2020 3:38 pm

        Dave “You can not get prices down using actuaries.
        You can not get them down with price controls – there is little in economics that is more solidly proven than that price controls do not work.”

        Please remind me where I said anything about getting prices down using actuaries or price controls.

        You also state the way to lower prices is free markets. I agree, but it is not free market insurance, it is free market health providers and supplies.

        That is a totally different situation. Reducing costs reduces premiums.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 7:00 pm

        “That is a totally different situation. Reducing costs reduces premiums.”

        That is how people think markets work – it is not.

        The markets often produce altruistic results – they are not altruistic.

        Providers reduce costs to gain an advantage.
        In the end the advantage is short lived and the benefit goes to consumers.
        But the impetus of const reduction is to gain advantage.

        This is why you can not manage an economy.

        WE have plenty of people who are “experts” in their field.
        They can tell us to the penny what something costs.
        They can tell us how to reduce costs, and most typically they tell us we can only do that a little.

        But they are ultimately wrong.
        Prices/costs are reduced because at least temporarily doing increases profits.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 1:09 pm

        Medicare is failing one way or the other.
        I do not need to do anything.

        The question is how bad we are prepared to screw ourselves fiscally before we give up.
        That is all.

        Medicare is also further proof that the only choice is to get government out of this.

        Medicare is not only slowly bankrupting the country, but it has been driving prices up and requiring the free market to subsidize it.

        That is one of the things wrong with your proposal.
        Medicare as a whole is subsidized by the market – inaddition to operating at a loss the government must make up.

        Expanding medicare means less private insurance subsidizing more medicare.

        At some point soon, the private market just can not subsidize the govenrment market any more and it goes into a death spiral.

        Right after that the healthcare system goes into a death spiral because without private insurance the entire system is not profitable.

        After that medicare itself fails.

      • June 30, 2020 4:47 pm

        Dave “Medicare is not only slowly bankrupting the country, but it has been driving prices up and requiring the free market to subsidize it.”

        Yes, due to one main reason. Politicians trying to get reelected. Actuaries have told CMS that funding has fallen short of expenses for years. Each year the deficit gets worse. CMS then tries to make up shortages by cutting reimbursement. Then providers raise prices to cover Medicare shortfall.

        Politicians wont raise funding, so the deficit worsens. They are more interested in reelection. Please remember my thoughts in actuarial set rates! The way private is sets rates.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 9:09 pm

        “Yes, due to one main reason.”
        The inventiveness are wrong for government to control spending.

        You can not fix that with actuaries or anything else.

        Politicians do not even need to have to get elected for the problem to exist.
        Even totalitarians seek adulation by giving away things they did not create.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 1:33 pm

        Immigration law.

        Immigration is the legitimate domain of government.

        First – Open Borders does not and can not mean anyone who wants can come here and with all benefits. What democrats have created is not sustainable.

        I am absolutely going to join you in limiting benefits to citizens.
        Though I am deeply suspicious that SCOTUS will tank that.

        Regardless, there is absolutely no way you get my support to do anything about birth right citizenship. If you think the Dreamers problem is bad, how bad will it be when government starts deporting people who are born here ?

        It is often said that those born here – win the lottery of life.
        that is absolutely true. There is no actual difference between a child both in the US of citizens, and one born in africa in poverty except the place of birth.

        There is no “right” to be an american. it is an accident of birth.
        Leave it that way. You can not fix it anyway.

        Look at what the US would be like today if Birth Right citizenship have been ended in 1980.

        Atleast 45M people in this county would be illegal – that is 15% of the population.
        Probably the number is more than twice that.

        We also see what happened in Europe – absent citizenship for people born here, they do not bond to the country, but they do not leave the only place they have ever known.
        They are alienated, and increasingly violent and dangerous.
        The growing stresses between foreign minorities and europeans are tearing europe apart and they are going to get worse.

        We do not want to choose that for ourselves.

        There is lots else about immigration law that needs changed.

        Require all those seeking to immigrate to the US legally that are making a claim for asylum to apply outside the US – at an embassy or consulate. Where they can prove some immediate threat – they can be allowed to wait in the US, otherwise they wait outside the US.
        Make it clear that asylum is only for political refugees. That you can not get asylum because your husband beats you and the police will do nothing, or because gangs rule the streets. You can not get asylum because you live in a dangerous place.

        I am proposing to clarify what asylum means. But even if we choose to accept battered wives or people from dangerous countries – We – the people, must CHOOSE it – through congress, not the courts.

        I would note – I favor open borders – that means I think immigration is way net positive and we should want as much as possible.

        It does not mean there is some right to immigrate, that I do not beleive countries and borders exist. Quite the opposite.

        I said we should define what asylum means – I can support a very liberal definition, I can oppose a very narrow one. But WE must define what asylum means – not the courts.

        I would try to revise the rules on “illegals” so that they just get deported.
        That you do not get to make a claim for asylum or any other means to become legal – except through the normal process.

        No detention centers, no family separation.
        Any hearings or due process are solely to determine if you are a legal us resident or not.
        That is the only claim you get to make if you are caught crossing the border “illegally”

      • June 30, 2020 5:30 pm

        OK clarify please. Coyotes bring in ten couples, all women pregnant. All women give birth to children.

        children are citizens. How do you handle illegal parents?

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 9:20 pm

        Send them home – presumably with their children.

        But the children are still citizens.

        This is not the normal case.

        We already have russians getting visa’s for their pregnant wives to travel to the US ang give birth so their children as US citizens.

        I do not like that. We could consider denying visa’s to pregnant women.

        But I am not going to eliminate birthright citizenship over one minor issue that can be addressed other ways.

        There is not a huge caravan of pregnant women trying to cross illegally.

        It is just too difficult.

        We have seen families more recently – because the courts made it harder tot throw families out. Before we mostly see young single adult men. They are the ones who can most easily make the trip. They come to make money – not primarily to stay. They send money home.
        and they eventually go home themselves. Get rid of the rules that make it hard to send families home and you will see things return to young men.

        With preganant women, you have to have them travel in the 9th month.
        You have to get them across just before they are going to give birth.
        Close enough that they can not be deported before they give birth.

        Narrow the deportation window for those crossing illegally, and you eliminate the problem.

        It is incredibly hard to time a crossing of a pregnant woman. It is very hard to bring pregant women accross.

        Further if you have decent border security – they are not getting accross.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 1:35 pm

        “I also only make these specific positions known only when that subject is being discussed or it is required such as my response to Roby . ”

        So What ?

        Wouldn’t we all prefer to discuss actual issues, rather than, what has the media flipped out over today ?

        Or “Orange Man Bad” ?

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 1:23 am

        I do not care if you characterize my positions as extreme.

        The point I was making regarding “extreme” is the extremist threat is entirely on the left today.

        If libertarians are “extreme” – we do not have much of a voice as a party or within the GOP.

        There is no consequential group in the GOP that is as “extreme” as Bernie Sanders, much less BLM.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 28, 2020 2:21 pm

        I keep referring to Alinsky, Alinsky is just the formal expression the political tactics that relies on insult, uproar, … That the left has been using for decades.

        But Alinsky’s “rules for radicals” do not care whether they are used by the left or the right.

        They are effective, but they focus on making your opponent look bad rather than making persuasive arguments.

        Alinsky is the WMD of argument, and Trump has adopted it on the right, and that means we can back down and work to persuade or we can move to Mutually Assured Destruction.

        But Akinsky is tactics. It does not care about the underlying arguments.

        When we look at actual positions – the “right” today is NOT extreme.

        No one is advocating for a return to slavery, Jim crow, segregation.

        Trump is not undoing the past 80 years of left shifting american politics.
        He is undoing the bad policies of Obama.

        This is not “extreme”.

        I am very tired of this “extremists right and left” nonsense.

        Everytime there is some nut job committing a heinous crime we all pray that his social media will implicate the other side.

        These guys are nuts. most of the time their “ideolgy is a nuts mismash”, but each side is still praying for the clearly ideological zealot mass killer from the other side.

        But historically political violence is initiated from the left. There are a few counter examples, but not many.

        When I was a kid the KKK was real, and there were a fair number of actual Nazis in the country. This is not the case today. There are 10 times more Antifa in Portland than white nationalists in the US.

        The “Proud Boys” are offered as the example of right wing extremism

        They are tiny and their credo is “a Western chauvinist who refuses to apologize for creating the modern world.”

        I doubt I would really fit in with the Proud Boys – but I have no problem with there credo or their tenants.

        Regardless if that is the far right – there is nothing to worry about from the right.

        Where is this “extremism”

        We listened as Rick and Robby defamed Limbaugh as a racist – and his followers as worse.

        There is a top 10 list of purportedly racist remarks by Limbaugh.
        Almost all have been rated as False. At the same time Limbaugh has admitted that as a shock jock in the 70’s he said some insensitive things to callers that he regrets today.

        A very few of the “racist” quotes attributed to Limbaugh are true. They are also not racist.

        Today saying that blacks commit more murders per capita than whites is considered racist.
        It is also true.

        Maybe Limbaugh is some crypto racist. Personally I do not listen to him.

        Regardless if you are calling Limbaugh Racist you are calling 30m listeners racist.

        I do not think we had 30m significantly racist people in this country in the 60’s. Much less today

        The modern right is not extreme. The most extreme portions of the right just want to be left alone. They are OK with gays marrying, and Transgendered all over the place – so long as their kids are safe from pedophiles in a public restroom – an no Transgendered people are not peodophiles – but Peodophiles will do whatever it takes to molest children.

        Some have pointed out that the leaders of BLM are pretty extreme marxists.

        SO WHAT ? I will defend their rights as much as Gavin McIness.

        I will defend their right to speak. But not to engage in violence.
        Either of them .

        Who thinks that Gavin McIness is has anyone listening to him ? Has any political power at all ?

        Yet the entire democratic party is kneeling to BLM.

        Imagine if Republicans were kowtowing to McIness.

        The extremism in this country is lopsided.

        Trump is not extreme. He is sometimes offensive.
        They are not the same.

      • June 28, 2020 12:42 pm

        I guess my position on all of this boils down to the fact that virtue-signalling, threats, intimidation and demonizing people who think differently than you, is no way to solve problems.

        As Kevin Williamson (never-Trumper, for what it’s worth) has written in National Review:

        “Nobody’s going to do one goddamned thing about how they conduct business in Philadelphia or Chicago or any other corrupt, Democrat-dominated city, but there are going to be some “new representation and inclusion standards for Oscars eligibility,” and we are going to be treated to — joy of joys! — a deep national discussion on whether some Broadway stars don’t have it quite as good as other Broadway stars. The bloody-snouted hyenas have looked up from the kill just long enough to announce the creation of the Goldman Sachs Fund for Racial Equity.”

        And the rich will continue to be rich, the corrupt political machines will continue to promise solutions for poverty, while they greedily ransack our cities, and the media will continue to shape the narrative by ignoring reality and promoting civil strife.

        \

      • dhlii permalink
        June 28, 2020 4:48 pm

        We are also in the midst of the great “noose” debacle.

        there are about 100 complaints about nooses per year.

        The overwhelming majority of these turn out to be deliberate hoaxes by black activists.
        Who are fortunately not smart enough to avoid getting caught
        Unfortunately our system responds to this nonsense anyway.

        Of those that are not hoaxes – nearly all are not nooses. Go look at the photos – if you can find them – the NASCAR door pull or the loops in the trees in the park.

        You must be deliberately trying to conflate every bit of rope into a racial message to get noose.

        I would further note that all “nooses” are not racist.
        I was in the Fall play my senior year. There was not a black person in the cast.
        My character was rewritten from black to jewish – because we had no black student to play them.
        My role was very minor and I had lots of free time. I spent some of it tying knots in the stage ropes – I had been a boy scout and was fascinated by ropes.

        Eventually I tried “hangman’s knots” and found that they disturbed the cast – so I tied more.

        There was nothing racist in it.

      • June 28, 2020 1:21 pm

        Ron, I was finishing my second comment and missed reading yours first.

        I agree that it would be fascinating to have everyone give their thoughts and opinions on the issues of the day, rather than arguing over whether Trump is a good or bad president, whether some TV or radio personality is right or wrong, or whether people who see things differently than we do are at fault for the problems of the country.

        That’s not to say that there isn’t room for discussion of Trump, or the media, or that certain groups or persons bear responsiblity for instigating and stiking strife.

        But, those discussions tend to go round and round, and devolve into mudfights and scapegoating.

        I’d certainly like to get away from that, even temporarily.

      • June 28, 2020 2:03 pm

        The issue here with some is if you defend anything Trump does, your a Trumpanzee. As I have bitched for years about bad trade agreements with China costing us thousands of manufacturing jobs, no one ever called me a racist, extremist or any other anti-Trump name until Trump was elected.

        So when Biden is elected and he proposes Medicare Buy In and it does not have a mandate to purchase, I will support that. And miraculously, I will become a bleeding heart liberal.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 28, 2020 4:52 pm

        If you advocate for anything anyone on the left does not agree with

        you are a hateful hating hater – and that has been true long before Trump

        Look at what happened to Romney, to McCain ?

      • dhlii permalink
        June 28, 2020 4:50 pm

        Those on the left do not want to discuss issues.

        All they want to discuss is how Trump and anyone who does not condemn him straight to hell are hateful hating haters

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 28, 2020 6:06 pm

        Priscilla, a year or so ago you and Dave busied yourselves defending and sympathizing with the proud boys and repelling and debunking all of my comments on them. I responded and at no time did you in any way back down from your defence of them.

        That, regrettably, explains a good bit of my opinion of your ideology regarding race.

        Your defences of both Rush Limbaugh and trump over the years do factor in too.

        I’d love to have a different opinion of your ideology but you would have to provide a basis.

        Our Potus who gave the thoroughly and clearly racist agitator Rush Limbaugh the medal of Freedom at the SOTU just apparently tweeted a video of one of his supporters yelling “White Power.”

        What does that mean? My prediction is that you and Dave will fall over your selves to say it has no meaning at all. Well he has apparently deleted it now, but I have not read that he has made any statement regarding how he could have done that or how he actually feels about his supporters being fans of White Power. Oh well, let the so-whatting begin from you and Dave.

        As I said, sincerely, I wish I would have a different idea of your stance on this but…

        I can add that having read all that Rick has posted over a decade I doubt his position is far from yours either: The activists in the MSM media are stirring this idea of discrimination up, the turmoil is mostly their fault; why should blacks feel separate, hyphenated etc., we can’t they just be happy as Americans?; Rush says provocative things, but, what the heck, he is not a grand visor, and he is fun to listen to; its the overworked and factually uninformed people who think we still have a race problem who are most of the problem; its the poor whites who really have a bad deal. Those are Ricks opinions consistently expressed over many years. I have heard all his ideas about race problems. I would rather believe otherwise but words are words.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 12:44 am

        “a year or so ago you and Dave busied yourselves defending and sympathizing with the proud boys and repelling and debunking all of my comments on them. I responded and at no time did you in any way back down from your defence of them.”

        defending and sympathizing are entirely different things.
        And you do this all the time.

        Know matter how hard I go after you for it, you seem to think it is OK to defame others.

        I do not know much about “the proud boys”. What I know is from THEIR web site.
        I have to trust that they are who they say they are. Just like I have to do for Antifa.

        If they were actually Nazis or the KKK I would be defending their right to free speech.
        Just as I will defend the right of Antifa and BLM to free speech.

        But I do not “sympathize” with Nazi’s or KKK or Proud Boys or Antifa or BLM or Limbaugh.

        You are constantly playing this vile defamatory game – that when you slander someone else, and someone asks you to prove your claim, you respond by defaming whoever challenged you.

        Let me repeat again. That is vile and immoral.

        It is neither “defending” nor “sympathizing” to expect that when you call other racists, sexists, homophobes, or hateful, hating, haters, that you will provide actual and significant evidence to back up your defamatory accusation.

        So that is your FIRST problem.

        The Next morally repugnant thing that you do is defame anyone who defends the rights of others.

        Priscilla is making a big deal that the leaders of BLM are Marxists. And she is correct – they openly admit that. They celebrate it.

        But they are still entitled to free speech and free assembly and to petition the government.

        And I will defend those rights – not just for BLM, but for every single other group – whether you think they are repugnant or not.

        Defending the right of others – often those who would never defend my rights, is not
        defending their ideas or sympathizing with them.

        But it is absolutely the moral thing to do. And if you are attacking them for speaking or me for defending their free speech – you are neither moral nor liberal.

        Further you are defaming Priscilla and I.

        That is immoral.

        And I am sick and tired of it.

        You rant that Trump’s style offends you – look in the mirror. You words are WORSE.

        You may be only slightly left of center, but you have fully embraced the most evil things the far left does. You constantly lob false moral accusations.

        I do not care about your opinion of me – or anyone else.

        No one should give a $h!t what those who constantly make false accusations say.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 12:47 am

        Lets get this out in the open – no hiding.

        Are you accusing Priscilla and I or being racist ?

        Either openly admit that – or retract your comment.

        There is no grey area here.
        There is no middle.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 12:49 am

        You say “proud boys” are racist – maybe they are.

        But if you call someone a racist – you are obligated to back up that claim.

        We are all listening.

        You say Limbaugh is clearly racist – maybe he is.

        But if you call someone a racist – you are obligated to back up that claim.

        We are all listening.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 12:55 am

        “What does that mean?”

        Why is anyone obligated to explain to you what someone else means ?

        If you are looking to make moral accusations – the burden or proof is on you.

        I am sick and tired of this nonsense that I have to explain to you what someone you despise means by something that has incensed you.

        Are you obligated to explain what everything BLM say means ? or everything Biden says ?

        Your capable of making your own judgements. And your not entitled to demand that others reach the same judgments as you.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 12:57 am

        “My prediction is that you” will continue to make moral accusations of others – including now Priscilla and I, without any consideration of the consequences.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 1:10 am

        Specifically regarding the Trump tweet.

        I am trying to find the actual video, but as reported by Politico, it involves a confrontation between anti-trump protestors who pointed at Trump and said
        “There you go, white power.”
        “Trump bigot and racist”
        “Donald Trump white trash” and shouted profanities toward the supporters.
        called a supporter a “Nazi racist pig.”
        In the midst of this One Trump supporter responded to the anti-trump supporter yelling
        “There you go, white power.” by shouting back “white power”.

        ——————–

        Trump claims not to have heard that in the video.

        Regardless, I am tired of your Bull$h!t.

        I guess in Robby world those on the right have to phrase everything they say perfectly.
        But those on the left get to spray us all with whatever bull$h!t they wish.

        Are you going to condemn the protestor who was calling Trump supporters ‘nazi racist pigs” ?
        Or “bigots and racists” ?

        When assholes on the left are busy spraying everyone they disagree with hatred I expect that some of those they call vile names might reply back.
        Regardless, the problem is on the left.

        Reign in your own tongue, and then I will be interested in what you have to say.

        When YOU are not calling everyone you do not agree with a racist or worse.
        When YOU are not calling Priscilla and I racist or worse.

        Then I might give a crap when you complain about what others say.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 1:12 am

        What it “means” is that a bunch of life wing assholes spraying vitriol angered some Trump supporters and they lost their tempers a little.

        The problem is on the left.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 1:16 am

        “As I said, sincerely, I wish I would have a different idea of your stance on this but…”

        I do not care – and I would think Priscilla should not care what YOU who are now calling us racists, thinks.

        Why is it that we should believe you regarding Limbaugh, the proud boys, Trump, when you are spraying the same hate speech at us ?

        I would like to say “if everyone is racist, no one is”.
        But that lets you off to easy.

        You are worse that racist. You are someone who makes false moral accusations about others.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 1:17 am

        Robby,

        Go seek help. You have lost it.

        Who is it you do not think is a racist ?

      • June 28, 2020 8:26 pm

        Roby, you have gone off the deep end on this.

        Neither Rick nor I are racists. Having typed that, I’m almost forced to laugh at the ridiculousness of even having to do so.

        Almost.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 28, 2020 9:45 pm

        I gave you specific reasons for my opinion. You have no response to those reasons. Just, I am not… Maybe, give me some more up to date info on your views on the proud boys and the Magic Negro humor of the recent recipient of the nations highest civilian honor instead?

        It is Limbaugh and his followers and the Proud boys and their followers who went of the deep end. It’s trump and the GOP that have gone off the deep end in a vile and dangerous way that needs to be answered.

        Racism exists in many forms and to many degrees, mild to strong. As I have said, the further left one is the more they tend to see Everything as racism, and the further right, nothing short of the white robes and burning crosses qualify. In my world Rush Limbaugh is explicitly and proudly a racist. What does that make the people who think that calling Obama the “Magic Negro” is funny (or even acceptable) or posting pictures of the Obamas as gorillas etc.?

        You are currently in a state of shock that so many people are actually siding with the protesters to some degree. Let me offer some possible explanation for why that might be.

        In a Pew poll it was found that 80% of Americans dislike or detest PC. That could be a great campaign issue for the GOP. But not by the Limbaugh path. Not by the proud boys path. Not by the trump path. The answer to people who have no tolerance at all to anything that offends them is not to go overboard offending them by repeating a horrible history. Yes, we hate PC as a group, but as a group a majority of Americans also hate the actual events and behaviors that produced PC as a very flawed answer. Jackasses like Limbaugh and his followers have misjudged. Trump has misjudged and his giving the Medal of Freedom to Rush was a huge misjudgement. It was blatantly honoring an explicit racist in an in your face manner. That idiotic act made the racial politics of the trump GOP explicit. A racist president, a racist party and a racist base. But hell, most of them don’t shoot up black churches, they are not Grand Wizards, so… They are just a little racist, merely white chauvinists but not white supremacists. That is not really so bad right?

        There is substance behind the complaints of the protesters. It’s a thing in conservative circles to underestimate the legitimate anger of a very large number of people. like it’s a thing to believe that the Swedes are all generating herd immunity.

        Priscilla, things are happening that dismay you, you really don’t understand why, oh, we are all screwed, these black Marxists are burning down the country and people seem to accept it. How could that be? I’ll tell how, there is a silent majority all right and its not the one trump refers to.

        Your trump led populist movement has generated its backlash. Enjoying it much?

      • June 28, 2020 10:16 pm

        Roby, Was this meant for me because Word Press sent it’semail as a response to Ron. I don’t ever remember talking about Proud Boys. I don’t even know who they are today.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 2:12 am

        “I gave you specific reasons for my opinion.”
        When ? EVER ? I beg for you to give actual reassons for anything. You almost never do.

        “Maybe, give me some more up to date info on your views on the proud boys”
        Why is Ron or anyone else required to have a view on the proud boys.

        You have accused them of being racist. Maybe they are. But you have not established that.
        You have not tried.

        “the Magic Negro humor of the recent recipient of the nations highest civilian honor instead”

        Limbaugh did not invent the term. The LA Times did. Limbaugh merely parodied it.
        The parody is not that good overall, but if it it racist the LA Times is racist.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Negro#Barack_Obama

        “It is Limbaugh and his followers and the Proud boys and their followers who went of the deep end.”

        They did ? How – make your case with facts.
        Your “magic negro” attack was a flop.

        I guess no one is allowed to poke fun at the left in Robby world.

        “It’s trump and the GOP that have gone off the deep end in a vile and dangerous way that needs to be answered.”

        Again evidence ? Are Trump supporters burning, looting, destroying property, killing each others ?

        “Racism exists in many forms and to many degrees, mild to strong. As I have said, the further left one is the more they tend to see Everything as racism, and the further right, nothing short of the white robes and burning crosses qualify.”

        Thank you for that lecture Prof. Robby. I have been living in a bubble for the past 60 years.
        I missed the civil rights movement, the summer of rage, vietnam, the assassination of MLK, the Birmingham bombings.

        “In my world Rush Limbaugh is explicitly and proudly a racist.”
        I do not want your oppinion, I want evidence. Without it your oppinion is not worth anything.

        “What does that make the people who think that calling Obama the “Magic Negro” is funny (or even acceptable) or posting pictures of the Obamas as gorillas etc.?”
        I do not know ? What made LA Times think that as acceptable ?

        “You are currently in a state of shock”
        Back to the mind reading.

        “Let me offer some possible explanation for why that might be.”

        Why do I need your explanations.
        I have been here posting about problems with police for YEARS.
        I do not need your help understanding the problems with policing.
        I am highly sympathetic to the desire of protesters for improved policing.

        “In a Pew poll it was found that 80% of Americans dislike or detest PC.”
        Think about that – YOU are here spouting PC nonsense and you wonder why you are getting pushback ?”

        “That could be a great campaign issue for the GOP.”
        Yes, the GOP should be taking campaign advice from you ?

        “But not by the Limbaugh path.”
        Your the one wigging out over Limbaugh.
        And so far you have failed.
        Wow, Limbaugh parodied an editorial in the LA Times.
        Search his house for KKK hoods!

        “Not by the proud boys path.”
        The proud boys are completely inconsequential.
        If you could actually prove they were radical white supremecists – something you have so far not even attempted,
        What are there maybe 12 proud boys in the US ?

        So a group that you have failed to demostrate is racist, and has a membership that is not large enough to get a dog catcher elected is the big problem with the GOP.

        “Not by the trump path.”
        Worked in 2016.

        “The answer to people who have no tolerance at all to anything that offends them is not to go overboard offending them by repeating a horrible history.”

        Yes, the way to deal with the left is to offend the shit out of them – because it exposes them both as silly and hateful.

        Look at what you have done to yourself.

        Not only have you called Priscilla and I racist – but now Rick is too.

        I guess your going to report TNM to SPLC and get it blacklisted as a white supremecy site.

        “Yes, we hate PC as a group”
        Robby – you ARE PC.

        “but as a group a majority of Americans also hate the actual events and behaviors that produced PC as a very flawed answer. Jackasses like Limbaugh and his followers have misjudged. Trump has misjudged and his giving the Medal of Freedom to Rush was a huge misjudgement. It was blatantly honoring an explicit racist in an in your face manner. That idiotic act made the racial politics of the trump GOP explicit. A racist president, a racist party and a racist base. But hell, most of them don’t shoot up black churches, they are not Grand Wizards, so… They are just a little racist, merely white chauvinists but not white supremacists. That is not really so bad right?”

        There have been more shootings of white churches and more shootings of Jewish synogogues.
        Are those examples of racism.

        If Proud Boys are white supremecists – you should be able to prove that easily.

        And your the one wigged out over Limbaugh – not the country.

        “There is substance behind the complaints of the protesters.”
        Yes, there are problems with out policing that need addressed.
        LIKE I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS!

        “It’s a thing in conservative circles to underestimate the legitimate anger of a very large number of people.”

        “like it’s a thing to believe that the Swedes are all generating herd immunity.”
        Swedens death rate is lower than Belgium, the UK, Spain, Italy and barely about France and the US.

        There is only one way to reign in a respiratory viral epidemic – immunity.
        That is it, it is the only method that has every existed.
        You can get immunity by being infected.
        You can get it from a vaccine.

        But nothing else has ever worked.

        The good news is that many of us have natural immunity or high resistance.
        The flu rarely infects over 20% of a population.

        Just in case you are unclear this is SCIENCE Robby.

        Your the biologist – tell us all when any respiratory virus that has gotten a significant foothold has ever but stopped by any of the measures our governments have taken ?

        “these black Marxists are burning down the country and people seem to accept it. How could that be? I’ll tell how, there is a silent majority all right and its not the one trump refers to.

        Your trump led populist movement has generated its backlash. Enjoying it much?”

        By a 12pt margin americans currently favor letting CONFEDERATE statues remain.

        By a 39pt margin americans support using the military to end the riots.
        71% support using the national guard.

        Even among blacks support for using the national guard to stop this is evenly split.
        And Biden’s poll numbers are dropping again.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 29, 2020 12:16 am

        Lord No Ron, not to you.

        I will just add though before toddling off to bed that I am a racist myself sometimes depending on the situation. Everyone, except some blind people and a few saints is to some extent. Some a lot, some a little. Some are proud of it, some are not proud of it. Some are honest about it, some are not.

        But the GOP stinks of it and is exploiting it. Its gonna cost them I hope.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 2:20 am

        “I will just add though before toddling off to bed that I am a racist myself sometimes depending on the situation. ”

        Yes, and like nearly all of us the extent is tiny today, and it is only consequential in a few.
        My daughter is on the but end of racist treatment from frequently from blacks.

        We are all tribal. It is in our DNA.
        the greater the distance between us and who you are trying to get us to care about the weaker our concern.

        Ourselves, our family, our extended family, our community, our church, our high school, our city our state or race or nation.
        We all have pride in membership in groups and greater suspicion of those in the outgroup.

        That is natural human behavior.

        And Guess what – it is the weakest in the US. We are not a perfect melting pot, But we are more of one than any other nation.

        India still has a caste system among people of the same race.

        “But the GOP stinks of it and is exploiting it. ”
        Based on what evidence ?

      • June 29, 2020 8:28 am

        Roby, I’m not going to get into a mudfight with you on this. Call everyone a racist if that makes you feel superior and if it assuages your white guilt, but you are simply falling for the narrative that nothing has changed for blacks since the Jim Crow days, and that is patently false, not to mention ridiculous.

        It’s dangerous to foment racial strife and violence, simply so that theDemocrats can regain power, but that’s where we are. The Police Reform bill proposed by GOP Senator Tim Scott, was blocked by the Dems, merely because Scott is a black man, and Democrats didn’t want anything good to be attributed to him. Racist, right? Oh, I forgot, only Republicans can be racist…

        (For what it’s worth, the Proud Boys started as a joke. They are barely a blip on anyone’s radar, but, I do think that they crossed a line when they decided that fighting violence with violence was acceptable. It’s not. There you go, I think that they are to be condemned, right along with Antifa.)

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 2:51 pm

        The issue regarding “proud boys” is important specifically because Robby is wrong and the proud boys are inconsequential.

        The Proud Boys are another of those “dog whistles” – examples of massive problems on the right that only those on the left can see.

        If the proud boys were real white supremecists, if they numbered in the thousands – they still would be dwarfed exponentially be left violent radicals.

        Further Robby fixated on Philly and Baltimore – how many poor minority kids have no chance because the Proud Boys are keeping them down ?

        Robby is chasing obvious red herrings.

        It does not matter whether he proves the Proud Boys are racist or not.

        The whole argument is so obvioulsy pointless he destroys his credibility making it.

        He and the left are litterally doing the same as the Nazi’s did.
        The Nazi’s blames the jews for everything.
        Robby blames the Proud Boys.

        We can continue the debate on the proud boys forever – it just makes him and the left look smaller.

  13. Savannah Jordan permalink
    June 28, 2020 5:28 pm

    Hi Rick, your commentaries always provoke such interesting discussions. I have to admit that I have not completely read everyone’s comment, but let me add that I have no problem with removing the Confederate statues, but I would like to see it done lawfully. I think that Robert E. Lee said it best but he was referring to all monuments referencing the Civil War, “”I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavoured to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it has engendered.” I just ordered his biography. He did not believe in secession or slavery and was offered the command of the Union, but he could not raise his sword against his family, friends or state of Virginia so he declined the Union command.

  14. Savannah Jordan permalink
    June 28, 2020 5:34 pm

    Just one more comment alan dershowitz gave an interview about a number of issues but he focused more on the BLM. He stated that their charter is very anti-semetic. So I guess Black Lives Matter but Jewish Lives Don’t.

    • June 28, 2020 5:52 pm

      Savannah, the BLM founders and many of its members are Marxists, and Marxism has always been anti-Semitic:

      “Marx identified Judaism with the hated capitalist system, an antisocial force of alienation. “Real” emancipation meant doing away with Judaism. Marx’s antisemitic prejudices were later cited with relish by the Nazis, including Hitler. ”
      https://www.thejc.com/news/news-features/the-great-marxist-lie-about-jew-hate-1.488259

      I agree with you that Confederate statues might be lawfully removed, without much controversy. But the Orwellian way that revolutionary Marxists and anarchists are destroying historical artifacts, with very little pushback, is pretty horrifying. Unfortunately, many of those who are gleefully taking down statues of former presidents, saints, composers, etc. would not be able to tell you who those figures were, what they believed, or why they were commemorated in such a way.

      • Savannah Jordan permalink
        June 29, 2020 6:02 pm

        Priscilla, agree with everything you said. I knew that Marxism was anti-religious and anti-capitalist but did not realize it directed some of its wrath towards Judaism, since both of Marx’s parents were Jews (maybe not practicing Jews). Interesting.

  15. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    June 29, 2020 7:43 am

    To avoid having Ron think I am replying to him I will reply to you, Dave, in a fresh post.

    “We are all tribal. It is in our DNA.
    the greater the distance between us and who you are trying to get us to care about the weaker our concern.

    Ourselves, our family, our extended family, our community, our church, our high school, our city our state or race or nation.
    We all have pride in membership in groups and greater suspicion of those in the outgroup.

    That is natural human behavior.”

    Here is the one part of your rant that I agree with.

    And like the biological value of having a thrifty metabolism, the tribal mentality was beneficial for most of human history. But today a thrifty metabolism means battling obesity and losing. And being tribal is likewise no longer of the same benefit it was over tens of thousands of years or more.

    Yes, we are tribal in our genes. Some embrace that and use it politically for example, Limbaugh and trump. Some are more introspective about it and try to overcome it in themselves and in society. In my universe that is a better thing.

    All the rest of your rant was the usual reflexive uber-denialism. The part about Swedish herd immunity was especially typical Davish denialism. Herd immunity has turned out to be very, very low in Sweden. As in, in single digits. As in, hasn’t happened to any meaningful extent. You are wrong about their death rate, it is 522 per million, higher than France, 456, and the US 380. Only Italy, Spain and Britain have (slightly) higher rates per million people. The countries neighboring Sweden have rates that are literally 10 times lower. The Swedish strategy has killed a lot of Swedes.

    I pick on the Proud boys because they are an example of a militant white chauvinist group who got some kind of platform from the NYGOP for a while before they thought better and withdrew it. I don’t know what their numbers are but their ideas have a far broader audience, which is why I use their example. I also use their example because both you and Priscilla have defended them here.

    I recognize my own tribal (racist) tendencies and admit that they are natural and human. It does not mean that I like them or think that they are helpful in modern society. In fact I think that they still have plenty of poison in them and are destructive in the modern context.

    I have to laugh, in a grim way, at your thousands of repeats of the denialistic statement that the harmful side of racism has a very small impact in the US. Right, like you have an objective opinion. I am supposed to try to argue you out of your obliviousness. Using the example of the herd immunity flop in Sweden, your contrarian head is made of granite and no sensible person who knows you trys to alter your opinions. A waste of time.

    You can live in your universe where racism causes little harm in the US and I will live in mine where it is still very poisonous and destructive, most especially to the black population. The actual truth is complex and lies in the middle depending on the chosen statistic.

    Go out into the areas where blacks live and give your speech to them. Let me know how it is received. Go stand on a street corner in Philly or Baltimore and preach your Gospel of the mild effects of present day racism in America. In my universe your opinions are those of a pseudo-factual contrarian and a dinosaur.

    • June 29, 2020 8:46 am

      “Go out into the areas where blacks live”

      Blacks live in my neighborhood, which happens to be a very nice neighborhood. So, do Asians, Indians and Hispanics. They are all middle class professionals, and they have the same concerns as other middle class voters. We all socialize, our kids grew up together and became close friends,and many of them are in touch to this day. I am sure that many of these people have encountered racism in their lives, but they are not demanding reparations, and they do not blame every white person for the state of the country.

      Roby, you seem to believe that all blacks are poor and uneducated, because that is true of our cities, which have failed to provide adequate schools, and failed to provide adequate public safety. Every 2-4 years, the politicians who run those cities, go out and promise some government programs that will solve the problem of rampant drug abuse, poor schools and high crime. And guess what? NOTHING EVER HAPPENS, because those politicians, almost always Dems, don’t really care, once the election is over.

      Maybe the fact that there are hardly any black people in Vermont has skewedyour perception.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 29, 2020 11:19 am

        “I am sure that many of these people have encountered racism in their lives, but they are not demanding reparations, and they do not blame every white person for the state of the country.”

        Good, because that would be a waste of time. But its not a realistic standard. If they can afford your nice neighborhood and its property taxes they are upper middle class and have had a pretty good experience in America. Very few blacks (and even simply relatively few people) live in the upper middle class neighborhood you live in.

        No, I do not think that most blacks (or minorities) are poor and uneducated. They are however certainly disproportionately poorer and on average less educated. I don’t blame that on systematic racism at this time. I attribute it to the fact that their path through american history has been much more difficult and started from a much lower position and as a group have not caught up to the average. Until relatively recently systematic racism did play a huge role, the civil rights movement erased most of that. But the scars remain.

        The fact that blacks and minorities live disproportionately in cities and that large cities are nearly all run by democrats and that the problems you list do not improve are facts occur simultaneously, which does not prove causation. The idea that the Dem politicians “don’t care” is just your partisan projection. You have no way of knowing that. Things do not change because the problems are incredibly complex and difficult and self perpetuate, that is my theory.

        By the way take almost any negative social statistic, poverty, low life expectancy, literacy, low income, and you will find that politically conservative states take up the majority of the worst cases. What does that prove? Its complex and anyone who wants to prove an ideological point can chose some statistics and their underlying issues and ignore others. Where does that get us?

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 3:18 pm

        “If they can afford your nice neighborhood and its property taxes they are upper middle class and have had a pretty good experience in America. Very few blacks (and even simply relatively few people) live in the upper middle class neighborhood you live in.”

        I do not specifically know Priscilla. Today I am and live in the 2nd quintile in the US.
        That is pretty good – 40% of the country do better, 60% do worse.
        I could pretty easily do better, I would just have to move to SF or San Diego or Seatle and I could get into the top quintile – but I choose to live where the cost of living is lower.
        Where I have 2 acres in the woods at a price you could not buy a dump in seatle.

        After HS I was primarily in the 3rd quintile. I was living in shitty places – not the worst, but pretty bad. And I lived in those places for over a decade. That is what I could afford at the time.

        One of my closest friends, was from that time. My wife was very close to her mother, she was maid of honor at our wedding. She was there for us after the rape. And when she died, we were their for her daughter – who also got raped. Something all to common in the neighborhood we lived in then. We now live in the country. So does she.
        This is my world – DNA test have revealed that the rumors about my great grandmother are true – I am about 16% Ashkenazi Jew, the rest is poor Irish immigrants. My wife is German anabaptist, My daughter Chinese, My Son South Korean. my Best Friend Ukrainian. My wifes best friend is black, their children are my closest “relatives” – we go to their place for holidays – which oddly is the most likely place I will encounter red necks and trump supporters. Our church is flamingly LGBTQ, but even outside of that a radically disproportionate portion of my friends are not straight, and many of those are not white either. One of the cliques I was drawn to in HS was a bible study. That is where I met my wife. It has taken decades for most of them to come out of the closet, but aparently my evangelical christian HS bible study was almost entirely lesbians.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 3:41 pm

        “No, I do not think that most blacks (or minorities) are poor and uneducated. ”
        Well they are. And it is the left that has made them that way.

        “They are however certainly disproportionately poorer and on average less educated. I don’t blame that on systematic racism at this time.”
        You do not ? Well they are not going to the segretated southern schools of the early 20th century. They are going to schools in the north, in NY, in Baltimore, in Detroit.

        “I attribute it to the fact that their path through american history has been much more difficult and started from a much lower position and as a group have not caught up to the average.”

        Most of them have been living in northern cities for over a century.

        “Until relatively recently systematic racism did play a huge role, the civil rights movement erased most of that.”
        The civil rights moment is the pinacle – the changes started long before.
        WWII was a huge factor – bur so was WWI.
        “But the scars remain.” Because leftists whites pick at them.

        “The fact that blacks and minorities live disproportionately in cities and that large cities are nearly all run by democrats and that the problems you list do not improve are facts occur simultaneously, which does not prove causation.”
        Glad to see that you recognize that correleation and causeation are not the same.
        But in this case you are WRONG.

        These things have been true – often for a century. The root problems for minorities in this country – poor education, crime, lack of oportunities, broken families, are all problems that are far worse in those cities, and particularly in minority communities.

        Grow up Robby – the left made this mess. Not the Proud Boys, not Rush Limbaugh, not mythical white supremecists.

        ” The idea that the Dem politicians “don’t care” is just your partisan projection.”
        No it is observable reality.

        I have said one of the big deals about Trump – why he will likely be re-elected is that he keeps his promises.
        Those on the left don’t. You have made promises for a century for the votes of urban minorities – you have not kept your promises. No one else has stopped you from improving the lot of urban minorities. Schools have actually declined. In the 50’s black families were intact. There was real progress towards a black middle class. You destroyed that.

        All you white democrats should be out prostrating yourselves to BLM – you F;d up.
        but do not blame the mess you made on republicans or Trump supporters, They had nothing to do with the mess you made.

        “You have no way of knowing that. Things do not change because the problems are incredibly complex and difficult and self perpetuate, that is my theory.”
        And yet that is false. Myriads of other immigrant groups has come into US cities, living in poverty that makes Baltimore today look like Luxury. They have faced similar discrimination.
        My Ancestors faced lots of discrimination against the Irish.
        Catholic immigrants famously created their own education systems and educated their own children. Catholic education in the US even today costs less than 1/4 what public education does and is better than nearly all public schools.

        The problems are not impossible to solve. They are just impossible for the left to solve.

        “By the way take almost any negative social statistic, poverty, low life expectancy, literacy, low income, and you will find that politically conservative states take up the majority of the worst cases. What does that prove?”

        The vast majority of those bottom tier conservative states – we democratic states for all but the last 20 years. They are also the places in the country were things are improving the fastest. In many instances racial problems are not nearly as bad in the modern south than in norther cities.

        “Its complex and anyone who wants to prove an ideological point can chose some statistics and their underlying issues and ignore others. Where does that get us?”

        Yes, if you are prepared to misuse statistics, ignore regression to isolate variables, and statistical significance to tell you what ones matter – you can prove anything.

        But if you follow the actual statistics you will find that “the left lies”.

        And this is so true that you do not need statistics to see it.

        Is there a successful communist state ? Socialist ? Has big government worked ANYWHERE ?

        Has leftism worked anywhere ?

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 3:49 pm

        “Its complex and anyone who wants to prove an ideological point can chose some statistics and their underlying issues and ignore others. Where does that get us?”

        Lets say you are correct – though you arent.
        Your argument essentially is that we can not solve our problems – we can not tell what the truth is because we can not tell valid data from invalid data. That ultimately we just have to pick one ideology or the other and go with it, and expect further ruin regardless.

        If you have no means for determing what works and what does not – then you are just throwing darts at random and can not even tell if you succeed.

        So lets address some reality for you.

        Catholic schools work. They have for nearly 2 centuries. They have had problems – but not nearly those of public schools.

        Minorities are increasingly finding that Charter Schools work.

        We KNOW that we can do better than the urban public education that we have, that is egregiously expensive and unbeleivably harmfull to those subject to it.

        Lets start there. Close public schools. Sell the buildings. Give parents 1/2 the money that is given to public school districts and tell them to go find an education for their kids.

        In a few years you will radically transform the prospects of minorities.

    • June 29, 2020 11:12 am

      You know, Roby, I always think that it’s best to state your own opinion and listen to the opinions of others. You prefer to state my opinions for me, but that’s just your way, I guess.

      I believe that many of the southern states were remiss in leaving up the statues of Confederate soldiers. And, by remiss, I mean wrong. I don’t believe that they did this out of overt racism (although that could certainly be true of some), but, in context, many of these statues are monuments to those young Confederate soldiers who died fighting for a losing cause, and who were mourned by their families and neighbors. So, in the context of the time, it’s understandable.

      Once it became clear that these monuments memorialized men who fought and died for a morally wrong cause, and that the statues were a painful reminder, to many, of a time when America allowed humans to be enslaved, they should have been lawfully removed. Same for the military commanders of the Confederacy.

      That is my opinion.

      I also believe that the thugs, many of them rich white kids, who think that they’re revolutionaries, who are tearing down statues of Washngton, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Cloumbus, etc are mob-driven morons, who have no sense of morals and certainly no sense of history. That’s where we are now, and it’s driven, not by morals, but by politics.

      That’s my opinion, too.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 29, 2020 12:33 pm

        I hate populism. I hate mobs. I said long ago that trumps right wing demagogic populism was sure to provoke a swing to a left wing populist mob. Giving Limbaugh the medal of Freedom certainly added to the anger, its was an in your face repudiation of PC that was sure to drive PC to higher levels. I am hoping Limbaugh lives long enough to see trump driven out. I despise them both.

        I would prefer that statues come down lawfully, personally I would simply put a plaque on them that explains the downside of the person who has been immortalized and leave the statue up.

        The bigger point is that this unrest and protest and yes, this violence against property, has roots in some genuinely terrible situations.

        I don’t believe that our legal system has left any systematic racism in place.
        But policing is a problem and not just for minorities. Of the several psychological types who are attracted to police work, one of them, which loves power, authority, action, should be screened out. Police should all have video running when in action, period for the protection of the public and themselves. Its a no brainer. Some police unions, Boston for example have blocked that. Why? Some of the things police forces do could be split off and handed to people who are not carrying guns. Most of all, I would address inner city dystopian poverty with a giant CETA type program to teach job skills while rebuilding the infrastructure of the inner cities as well as that in areas of rural poverty. I would cheerfully spend a trillion, yes a trillion, on that.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 5:19 pm

        ” Giving Limbaugh the medal of Freedom certainly added to the anger, its was an in your face repudiation of PC that was sure to drive PC to higher levels.”

        Yes, the Limbaugh Medal of freedom is at the top of the list of BLM grevances.

        Sorry Robby, the only people who are pissed over this are wing nuts.

        “I am hoping Limbaugh lives long enough to see trump driven out. I despise them both.”
        Yes, we know, you are a “hateful, hating hater”.

        “I would prefer that statues come down lawfully”
        The majority of americans do not want them to come down at all. Not even the confederate statues.

        “The bigger point is that this unrest and protest and yes, this violence against property, has roots in some genuinely terrible situations.”
        Yes, the democratic destruction of the inner cities.

        Even if you actually demonstrated that policing was systemically racist – it would be the racism of YOUR system.
        There is no way to argue this is not a problem of your making.

        Frankly I do not give a crap how you solve it – YOURSELF.
        Leave the 99% of the country that is not rioting out of this.
        Whatever you do – pay for it yourself.

        “I don’t believe that our legal system has left any systematic racism in place.”
        Then you beleive wrong. They only statistically significant signal of racism in our criminal justice system is in sentencing – that is judicial, not policing.

        “But policing is a problem and not just for minorities.”
        Correct – the problems are not race.

        “Of the several psychological types who are attracted to police work, one of them, which loves power, authority, action, should be screened out. Police should all have video running when in action, period for the protection of the public and themselves. Its a no brainer. Some police unions, Boston for example have blocked that. Why? Some of the things police forces do could be split off and handed to people who are not carrying guns.”
        What has stopped you from doing all these things decades ago ?

        I have advocated for all of these and more for decades, and you ignored me.

        That said I will note that policing is one of the most critical needs of these communities – much more than the rest of the country. So long as crime is so much higher than elsewhere all the other problems of these communities will remain.

        I beleive that we can do better in our policing. I agree with your suggestions – and have many more.

        But we must not diminish the effectiveness of the police in the process.

        NYPD disbanded the infamous “anti-crime” unit. This is the “Stop & Frisk” unit.
        Inarguably their targets were minorities.

        Inarguably they were effective. They reduced violent crime in minority communites by 600% in a decade. They reduced murders dramatically.
        Since disbanding violent crime has risen 358%

        So you tell me – do you disband the “anti-crime” unit – and watch murders and rapes spike ?

        You want to reform the police – fine.

        But lets accept the world is not perfect – and you may not be able to get your warm and fuzzy police without an increase in violent crime.

        So if you have to weigh a more racist beligerant police force against higher crime – what do you chose ?

        “Most of all, I would address inner city dystopian poverty”
        Go ahead – do anything you want to address poverty – with your own money.

        The rest of us are not interested in paying for the mistakes you have made.

        Blacks want reparations for slavery. I want reparations from you for the failed social programs you have force the rest of us to pay for .

        “with a giant CETA type program to teach job skills while rebuilding the infrastructure of the inner cities”

        You burned it down – you rebuild it.

        “as well as that in areas of rural poverty. I would cheerfully spend a trillion, yes a trillion, on that.”

        We have no doubt you would.
        And you would not give a shit that it did no good.

        It is the great society programs that destroyed poor black families.
        Why should we give you a trillion dollars to do it again ?

        Further I would suggest reading some literature on providing wells in Africa and other poor countries.

        Nothing is more beneficial to a poor village than a well with clean water.

        Assorted charities and NGO’s have been drilling wells in poor villages throughout the world.
        This is an easy thing to do, and very cheap. But near universally within two years the wells have failed and the villages went back to their old ways.

        NGO’s and charities have studied this for decades – in the past 40 years we have wasted $1T in charity in Africa to no effect.

        Money does not end poverty. Infrastructure does not end poverty.

        It is absolutely critical to get people to solve poverty themselves or it does not get solved.

        First charities and NGO’s found that no matter what the cheapest way to drill a well was, it was necescary to create the well using technology available to the village. If they did not,
        the effect was very short term.
        But even switching to technology that was within the ability of these villages was insufficient.

        What was ultimately found to work was to get the village to decide to dig wells themselves.
        They had to choose to dig the well, do the planning, and do the work.
        In the end the charities provided almost nothing.

        Ending poverty is quite cheap. What it is not is easy.
        There is very little you can do to “help” people out of poverty.
        The most fundimental things you need to do is provide “the rule of law”
        End crime – end the very chaos and anarchy that we are seeing right now.

        Those make thing worse not better.

        Regardless you can not solve other peoples problems for them.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 2:59 pm

        The focal point of racial strife in this country today is NOT the rural south – it is blue urban mostly northern cities that have decades of mismanagement by the left.

        We can debate civil war statues – a plurality of americans think they should remain.

        I do not care much. Though I tend to agree with Macron. It is our history, and for good or evil it needs to stay.

        But these statues are not the problem.

        There is a reason that nearly all the statues being attacked are people like Lincoln, Jefferson, Columbus. Because these riots are with few exceptions not happening in the rural confederacy. They are happening in the urban north.

        Minority blacks in Detriot or NYC are not having Nathan Forest rubbed in their faces.

        The angry young men sewing Chaos and anarchy are not within a 1000 miles of an actual confederate monument.

        This is more of the Robby nonsense – people ranting about the systemic racism that is just not part of their actual lives.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 12:58 pm

      “We all have pride in membership in groups and greater suspicion of those in the outgroup.
      That is natural human behavior.”

      Here is the one part of your rant that I agree with.

      Good, then this debate should be over.

      The strength of human ingroup bonding and outgroup suspicion will change as it has less valuable.

      And as nations – with the US by far at the lead become more mixed.

      The evidence already indicates that racial preferences have become very weak in most of the US and are small impediment to most minorities.

      I have been watching Henry Louis Gates series in genealogies. And was surprised by one of the facts he noted. US racial and cultural intermixing was mostly fairly low until after WWII,
      Then in the 50’s and 60’s that changed and it has every since. While Racial/Cultural intermixing occured prior to that -it was extremely rare. Today it is almost the norm.

      Look at the Trump’s, Trump has Scotch and German ancestors – those two did not come together until the mid 20th century in the US – you do not see much cross European mixing outside the US. But Trump’s more immediate family is mixed with eastern Europeans and Jews. Again something that does not happen outside the US. Even though the Jews migrated throughout Europe they had very little mixing with Europeans until they came to the US. Yet of all the people Gates featured on his show – a substantial portion had Jewish ancestors – and that mixing occurred inside the US.

      Donald Trump’s grand parents – and probably his parents were almost certainly anti-semites, and yet today Trump’s family is strongly Jewish.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 1:16 pm

      “And being tribal is likewise no longer of the same benefit it was over tens of thousands of years or more.”

      I would agree – but your opinion and mine are irrelevant.
      If our tribalism has diminished value, then over time we will see that Tribalism fade on its own.

      That strongly appears to be happening – though nearly exclusively in the anglosphere and lead by the US.

      In most of the rest of the world tribalism and racism are nearly as strong as ever.

      There are indications that is begining to change in europe – though mostly in the late 20th and early 21st century and primarily driven by falling birth rates of whites. Europe has been importing large numbers of foreigners to supliment its labor force for about 50 years,
      and as a result now has proportions of minorities that are causing european racist to be exposed.

      Elsewhere in the world racial and cultural divisions are nearly as rigid as ever.

      You left wingnuts rant about the purported horrible past of the US.

      While the american melting pot has moved much slower than claimed – it is still true.

      No nation on the world is as diverse as the US. No nation is as mixed.

      No nation will be as mixed in the near future.

      Our past problems with slavery and natives are not unique. Slavery was common throughout the world – and though the US was not the first western country to end it – we did so early. Legal slavery existed in much of the world well into the 20th century. And it still exists throughout the world illegally.

      There is pretty much no nation in the world without ethnic strife, genocide, in its past.
      Often quite recently. The Aremenian Genocide took place in Turkey in the early 20th century.

      Much of europe has had deep seated and often genocidal conflicts – resulting either from Genghis Khan or the Moors overrunning large parts of Europe.

      The Balkans conflict in Clinton’s term as well as that in Rwanda were racial and ethnic.
      Most armed conflict in the last 50 years is the result of hundreds of years of ethnic conflict.

      The US is far ahead of the world in weakening racism and tribalism

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 29, 2020 1:38 pm

        “You left wingnuts rant about the purported horrible past of the US.”

        OK Dave, So I guess that Slavery and the Genocide of the native Americans, the lynchings, the apartheid, were not horrible in your universe? Funny people you libertarians.

        And only “left wing nuts” care about these “purported” things? Good thing we did care, that is how they changed. Only I really do not think that the Union Army was made of left wing nuts. However, the civil rights activists of the 50s and 60s really Were left wing nuts, and brave ones, at least in the view of their regressive ideological opponents, those attempting to preserve their White power/black misery system. So lets hear it for left wing nuts!

        “No nation on the world is as diverse as the US. No nation is as mixed.”

        You make a huge number of strong claims with nothing to back them up, the thing you accuse me of. Sources? I am pretty sure that the USSR had as many or more ethnic groups, hundreds of them. But I don’t see the relevance in any case. This has what to do with racism? Germans marrying Scots is your example? Can you try to work in the price of figs in Argentina on some angle? You are full of crap and looking for every distraction you can find.

        Further, even if you could prove all your assertions, which I strongly doubt, its not an excuse for the destructive nonsense that still goes on. We are America. We have our Constitution, our Democracy. What we do should be compared to what we could do, and we are far away from how things should be in many areas regarding race.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 5:42 pm

        >“You left wingnuts rant about the purported horrible past of the US.”

        “OK Dave, So I guess that Slavery and the Genocide of the native Americans, the lynchings, the apartheid, were not horrible in your universe? Funny people you libertarians.”

        Nope – more of this if someone does not accept that the problem you have fixated on for the moment, then you are vile and repugnant.

        Apartheid was South Africa, not the US.

        Slavery existed accross most of the world at that time – however evil the US was, it was not uniquely evil.
        There were 10M africans brought here as Slaves.
        The Nazi’s enslaved as many people mostly jews, and ultimately murdered them.
        Slavery does not reach the level of horror of the holocaust.
        Pol Pot murdered 2M of his own people in a few years.
        the Hutu murdered nearly 1M Tutsi in a few weeks in Rwanda.
        Legal Slavery existed in Brazil into the 1980’s.

        According to the Lynching Museum there were just over 8000 lynchings in the US over approximately a century. That is horrible. It is about 1/2 the total Homocides in the US last year. It is about the same as the number of blacks killed by blacks each year.

        If you want me to look to improving the world – I am going to look at real problems now, not the death or enslavement of someones 8th great grand parent. There is no one still alive who was a slave. There are few if any people alive whose grand parents were slaves.
        There are few people who know someone who knows someone who was lynched.

        I have distant relatives who died fighting against slavery during the Civil War.
        Do I get reparations ?

        We know that native americans completely wiped out cultures and races that preceded them such as the anasazi.

        Ghengis Khan swept from asia across europe as far as turkey and killed 5% of the population of the earth.

        In the early 1800’s the Zulu massacred 1-2M people when they invaded south africa.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 5:57 pm

        “And only “left wing nuts” care about these “purported” things? Good thing we did care,”
        No YOU did not. You had absolutely nothing to do with ending any of this.

        Others – like my 5th great grandfather ended those almost 200 years ago.

        “Only I really do not think that the Union Army was made of left wing nuts.”
        Nope – it is left wingnuts still trying to refight the civil war and punish there own long dead 8th great granparents for crimes against possible their own 7th great grand parents.

        “However, the civil rights activists of the 50s and 60s really Were left wing nuts”
        No they were actual liberals. You are illiberal. Not the same.

        “and brave ones, at least in the view of their regressive ideological opponents, those attempting to preserve their White power/black misery system.”
        That would be white southern progressive democrats.

        “So lets hear it for left wing nuts!” who have done NOTHING.
        progrssive democrat Woodrow willson was possibly the most racist president we have ever had.

        Both Theodore and franklin Roosevelt have strong tries to other racist democrat progressives such as Grant Madison

        Racist Eugenics was the rage among progressive democrats – including planned parenthood and was important even in those nordic social democracies into the 1970’s

        Civil rights legislation was sponsored by republicans and opposed by progressive democrats through 1957.

        Even the CRA and VRA were passed primarily by republicans.

        Milton Friedman had an intergrated office years before the CRA.

        And I would note that the person who brought New Yorks murder rate down to a fraction of what it was saving thousands of black lives and restoring the rule of law so that blacks could get themselves out of poverty – Rudy Giuliani.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 6:09 pm

        >“No nation on the world is as diverse as the US. No nation is as mixed.”

        “You make a huge number of strong claims with nothing to back them up, the thing you accuse me of. Sources?”

        I do not owe you any of these. I have a long record of honesty and accuracy – you don’t.
        I have told you repeatedly that make false accusations comes at a cost.

        You have no integrity.

        “I am pretty sure that the USSR had as many or more ethnic groups, hundreds of them.”
        China has hundreds of racial minorities – my daughter is one of those. They make up a tiny fraction of the population.

        Produce data on significant racial diversity in the USSR.
        BTW do they still exist ?

        “But I don’t see the relevance in any case. This has what to do with racism? Germans marrying Scots is your example? Can you try to work in the price of figs in Argentina on some angle? You are full of crap and looking for every distraction you can find.”

        No Germans Marrying Scotts was not my example – it was one of many examples.

        Again I would refer you to Henry Gates PBS series on geneology.

        Even Martha Stewart turned out to be half jewish. and Samuel L Jackson had ancestors that fought in the american revolution.

        Almost no american that Gates has done was close to pure.

        Most blacks were only about 50% black. and most “Whites” were less than 70% european.

        “Further, even if you could prove all your assertions, which I strongly doubt, its not an excuse for the destructive nonsense that still goes on.”
        That is right – it is the left engaged in destruction – there is no excuse for that.

        “We are America. We have our Constitution”
        Which you have no intention of following.

        “our Democracy.”
        We are not a democracy.
        Democracy is the worst form of government there is.

        “What we do should be compared to what we could do, and we are far away from how things should be in many areas regarding race.”
        Oh, My! We are vile because we are not saints!

        Go back and fix the cities you F;d up on your own you hateful hating hater.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 1:20 pm

      So now the “proud boys” are merely “white chauvinist”.

      Is there a reason that you can not let go of race ? I could not find race or racial supremacy anywhere in there tenets.

      They identify as WESTERN chauvinists.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 1:36 pm

      The only consequential influence the proud boys have is in the heads of those such as yourself.

      Wow, One GOP Congressmen had a photo with McIness.
      Should every congressmen that has had a photo with Farakan be tarred and feathered ?

      Nation of Islam is far more consequential that Proud Boys.

      There are myriads of youtube channels with far more hits for a single video than the proud boys have had on their website ever.

      Democrats have congressmen that are more openly racist than Gavin McInnes.

      I am not particularly interested in the Proud Boys. I deliberately hedged when challenging you about them because it was entirely possible that they would prove to be openly white supremacist. And you have not done your research very well as McIness admits to past racist comments over a decade ago and claims he has changed.

      The one area in which Proud Boys is openly violent is that they have admitted that they seek our violent confrontations with Antifa.

      And my answer to that is “they deserve each other”.

      But I did go after you on Proud Boys and Limbaugh deliberately.

      You are claiming the right much more than the left is racist.

      And you have failed at that case.

      I am not sure of the politics of the proud boys – may of these purportedly extreme right groups are very socialist in nature.

      But Limbaugh is unarguably a significant voice on the right.

      Regardless, you have failed in any argument to demonstrate that the proud boys are especially racist, or meaningful.

      You have utterly failed to demonstrate Limbaugh is racist.

      I am not a supporter of either of these. But that does not mean that I get to rant that they are racist. That it is moral to do so.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 1:58 pm

      I do not care about your personal self criticism about your inconsequential racism.

      If it floats your boats to participate in this parody of the cultural revolution – as mostly white teens and young adults tear down statues and you publicly humiliate your self for your miniscule racisms – go at it.

      I am far more interested in making improvements of consequence.

      Minorities in this country do not need any of the crap the left is selling them.
      They do not need an end to your whimpy racism.

      They need a decent education system. The Historically Black Colleges, the Jim Crow segreated schools did a better job of educating blacks than our blue city schools – which fail at unbelievable expense.

      The 2018 FL election was tipped to the GOP by 300,000 single black mothers who voted to preserve the charter schools that gave their kids the only hope of a better future.

      Where are democrats on solutions that actually work ?

      Better Education is the single most important thing that minorities need.

      Not more money – the amount spent on minority education in our deep blue cities is greater – often several times greater than the cost of the elite private boarding schools of the uber rich.

      The next big problem that minorities face is crime. Absolutely there is much wrong with modern policing. But Crime in minority cities is more than twice as high as the rest of the country and it is a major factor in trapping the poor in poverty.

      Abolishing and defunding the police are about the worst things that could happen to minorities.

      In the past few weeks 1/2 billion dollars in damage has been done to minority communities.

      The good news is that is less than post Rodney King and definitely less than the 1968 Summer of rage. The bad news is that history tells us that recovery from rioting and looting and arson in minority communities takes decades.

      It is too late now, but the national guard should have been called in immediately after Floyd died. Protestors should have been marshalled into public squares and away from residential and commercial areas.

      Walmart and Target have already announced they are not reopening stores that were destroyed.

      It takes a big box store about 10 years to recover from the destruction of its inventory.
      Profits on the sale of goods are about 1.5%. And that does not account for the loss of the store itself.

      There is no reason to reopen a store in a place this could happen again in a few years.

      Smaller stores that have been in these communities forever are taking their insurance checks and leaving.

      These are real problems in minority communities – and you and BLM are fixated on statues.

      Regardless, the only evidence I see of systemic racism in this entire country is in the oppression of minorities that occurs in democrat controlled cities and states.

      I do not know if Rush Limbaugh is racist.

      But there is little doubt that democrats are systemically racist.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 2:17 pm

      Prior to C19 and these Riots racism was not on the top ten list of issues that blacks were concerned about.

      “You can live in your universe where racism causes little harm in the US and I will live in mine where it is still very poisonous and destructive, most especially to the black population. The actual truth is complex and lies in the middle depending on the chosen statistic.”

      These are not cherry picked. They are real.

      Though even more dramatic they are the same as the properly done statistical analysis of policing.

      You are in science, you purportedly have a grasp of statistical analysis. You hopefully understand that we do not have the ability to do controlled experiments to determine the impact of racism or education or crime. That we have to sort these our of real world data rather than controlled experiments.

      That the real world is messy and that there are dozens of factors that determine the success of failure of a person.

      We use statistical regressions as the means to sort out the influence of each of many variables in a complex system. That statistical techniques tell us both the magnitude of the influence of each variable, and the probability that result is meaningful.

      When we look at the factors that determine success – especially for those at the bottom.
      Race has a low magnitude and a low statistical significance.

      Things like intact families
      Completing high school
      avoiding crime
      avoiding pregnancy until you are ready to support a family.
      Getting a job – even a crappy one, and developing work habits.

      And a long list of others that have nothing to do with race were the strongest predictors of outcome.

      That poor whites, latino’s asians, and blacks who had these overwhelmingly succeeded and those that did not, overwhelmingly failed.

      So if you wish to go on pretending that the greatest problem in this country is systemic racism or the enslavement of a few million people two centuries ago.

      Then you bear the responsibility for the mess you have made.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 2:34 pm

      “The actual truth is complex and lies in the middle depending on the chosen statistic.”

      No it is not.
      There is no “chosen” statistic.

      The data is out there for all of us. You can get the data and do the regressions yourself if you want.

      There are those who have done so well, and those who have done so badly.

      Though the big problem is that those on the left do so shallowly.

      Crime in urban poor areas is at the very least 200% higher than elsewhere – in many places it is as much as 800% higher. Nor is this limited to minor crimes. Violent crimes – rapes, murders are far higher.

      You can not look at any statistic related to policing without adjusting for the fact that the police deal with crime – they go where the crime is.

      If the crime is disproportionately in poor minority neighboorhoods – that is where the police will be, that is where the arrests will be, that is where the shootings will be.

      The FACTS are oblivious of politics. They do not care about skin color or political party.

      We know where our problems are – and racism is very low among them.

      We have problems in policing, but there is no statistical signal of systemic racism in policing.

      There are a few – but very few areas where policing statistics show a statistically significant racial signal – one of the most significant is sentencing – and that is a judicial issue not a policing one.

      Regardless “systemic racism” requires finding a statistical signal in MOST policing statistics. And that is not present.

      I would further argue that even if our policing was systemically racist, that crime rates are a far more important problem for black communities that racist policing.

      We are seeing historic spikes in violent crime in minority urban areas.

      More innocent black children have been accidentally killed in the past few weeks than all the police killings of unarmed blacks in 2019

      The left claims to be for science – but only if the results confirm their ideology.

      That is not science – it is religion.

      If you want to fix problems you need to address their real causes, not chase after snipes.

      Continuing to fixate on racism for political gain is essentially racism.

      You buy minority votes but you do not solve their problems – you make them worse.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 2:43 pm

      “Go out into the areas where blacks live and give your speech to them.”

      I lived in atlanta for several years. I did not have much money and I rode the bus all the time.
      Atlanta at the time was something like 80% black (it is less now) and it was the murder capital of the country.
      I lived in Troy NY for several years – also a poor minority community. I lived in an apartment in a slum – because that is what I could afford.
      When I got married my first home was in the worst part of my city – and my wife and I lived there for 7 years.

      I do not need to preach to minorities – they know what their problems are. They know what they need.

      Look at these protests – these are kids – some black some white, who are entirely clueless.

      As I told you in Florida Gillium lost to DeSantis – because 300K poor single back women voted for their kids education.

      Have you actually been to Philly or Baltimore ? I doubt it.

      Regardless, those are messes YOU made.

      Clean them up.
      And quit accusing those of us who had no role in making them of being responsible for the mess YOU made.

  16. Rick Bayan permalink
    June 29, 2020 11:30 am

    I’ll try to reply to Roby and the rest of the gang later today (my son is keeping me busy), but meanwhile, here’s an excellent article that explains why some of us (and not just racists, Proud Boys, crypto-fascists and other miscreants) might be opposed to the current national uprising.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/andrew-sullivan-you-say-you-want-a-revolution.html

  17. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    June 29, 2020 11:49 am

    This thread got very long and started with Ron who then gets every comment made on it as a reply to him. So I am go8ing to respond to you Priscilla in fresh thread.

    “Call everyone a racist if that makes you feel superior and if it assuages your white guilt, but you are simply falling for the narrative that nothing has changed for blacks since the Jim Crow days, and that is patently false, not to mention ridiculous.”

    That is not an argument I made.

    “It’s dangerous to foment racial strife and violence, simply so that the Democrats can regain power, but that’s where we are. ”

    I am pretty sure that if you try to explain exactly how the democrats are going to “regain power through violence and racial strife” in a country that leans slightly to the right and has a black population of 12%, most of whom do NOT want their neighborhoods burned down, you will see how absurd your claim is. This country is not politically set up to reward the Dems for fomenting racial violence. That is a clear loser. We are still a country with a very pronounced white majority, and the GOP plays to their fears, which has been a successful tactic because of the numbers.

    I do not think that all republicans are terrible racists, any more than I think that all republicans are against gun control, any abortion, or doing something about climate change. Ive seen the polls. There are majorities of GOP voters with perfectly sensible (to my ideology) views on many things. The problem is that the GOP voters who have much more regressive views manage to leverage their votes to dominate, the NRA being a great example, so the final flavor of the GOP is far to the right of its average voter.

    In any case, You are missing the point of everything I said, much of it you have got backwards.

    “The Police Reform bill proposed by GOP Senator Tim Scott, was blocked by the Dems, merely because Scott is a black man, and Democrats didn’t want anything good to be attributed to him.”

    Good grief, are we really in first grade? That argument is worthy of a 6 year old. Is it possible that the bill was vetoed for reasons that the Dems actually thought it was very insufficient?

    Priscilla, Rick made two posts with the 2nd following nearly immediately after the 1st by TNM standards. Both are on the same situation, race and the reaction to police killing blacks. Had I decided not to comment which I nearly did you all could have had a conservative love fest.

    I don’t like Ricks views on race, I consider him oblivious to the reality of blacks in America and very white aggrieved. When he writes with as much passion about the problems of Black people as he does about the problems of statues of White people, well that will be great. Black people in this country, as a group, still have a very shitty deal in many ways, all improvements notwithstanding.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 4:03 pm

      “Call everyone a racist if that makes you feel superior and if it assuages your white guilt, but you are simply falling for the narrative that nothing has changed for blacks since the Jim Crow days, and that is patently false, not to mention ridiculous.”

      >That is not an argument I made.

      Correct, it is an argument against you.

      Have things improved for minorities ? Yes, or No ?

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 4:10 pm

      “I am pretty sure that if you try to explain exactly how the democrats are going to “regain power through violence and racial strife” in a country that leans slightly to the right and has a black population of 12%, most of whom do NOT want their neighborhoods burned down, you will see how absurd your claim is. This country is not politically set up to reward the Dems for fomenting racial violence. That is a clear loser.”
      Correct. I expect that November is going to be a blood bath for Dems.
      Especially in state government.

      “We are still a country with a very pronounced white majority, and the GOP plays to their fears, which has been a successful tactic because of the numbers.”

      More leftist race baiting. Right, republicans are playing to the fears of white voters ?

      So deregulation and limited govenrment are about white fears of black power ?
      So getting out of endless foreign wars – something that republicans are returning to as a value – despite the messes of the Bushes. That is about fear of minorty power ?

      Every single racial group mas majority support for the wall, for limited immigration, for trade barriers ?

      I do not agree with some of those positions – but pretending they are about race fear is nonsense.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 4:18 pm

      “Good grief, are we really in first grade? That argument is worthy of a 6 year old. Is it possible that the bill was vetoed for reasons that the Dems actually thought it was very insufficient?”

      Bunk.

      First a lesson in federalism and the constitution that you should have grasped in the past year.

      There is no federal police power.

      Public health is the domain of the states.

      Next.

      The most important thing we need to reform with respect to policing is ending qualified immunity. Get rid of that and everything else will fix itself. Neither party stepped up to the plate on that.

      Beyond that – the federal government provides states with a small amount of money for policing. That has entirely bad results. Regardless, that money is the extent of federal control of policing.

      I really do not care much about the Scott bill or the democrat bill. They are both irrelevant and ineffective.

      But there is ZERO difference in them symbolicly – they both fail to do anything significant beyond say “we fell your pain”

      The reasons for tanking the Scott bill were political.
      The same reasons that democrats can not reach a deal on immigration.

      It is also why they did not solve the immigration problem when Obama was president.
      They do not want the problem solved. They want to preserve it as a political issue.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 4:19 pm

      “Priscilla, Rick made two posts with the 2nd following nearly immediately after the 1st by TNM standards. Both are on the same situation, race and the reaction to police killing blacks. Had I decided not to comment which I nearly did you all could have had a conservative love fest.”

      You have not offered any solutions to anything.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 4:31 pm

      “I don’t like Ricks views on race, I consider him oblivious to the reality of blacks in America and very white aggrieved. ”

      The vast majority of americans live in places where crime is low, education is better, families are the norm.

      Why exactly is it that the vast majority of this country should be fixated on the incestuous policing and race problems of a small bubble of the US ?

      Why shouldn’t Rick and the rest of us be pissed because YOU and your party has failed and made problems you promised to solve and have claimed for decades to be able to do so, worse ?

      This is the BS we get from the left all the time.

      You demand copious amounts of money to solve problems that have little to do with most of us. Instead of fixing things – you make them worse, and then you blame YOUR bad outcome on the rest of us.

      Go fix the problems you made.

      As I said before – absolutely BLM should be lining up democrats and making them prostrate themselves for their failures.

      But this is your problem. The Proud Boys did not create this problem. Limbaugh did not create this problem. the KKK did not create this problem.
      Democrats created this problem.
      FIX IT – YOURSELVES, and leave the rest of us out of it.

      You claim that the republicans are using race as a political strategy.
      I do not see that.

      But I do see that the majority of people in this country should see the mess democrats have made and say – NOT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD!!
      That is a pretty rational position.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 29, 2020 4:53 pm

        “But I do see that the majority of people in this country should see the mess democrats have made and say – NOT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD!!”

        According to 538 the generic composite polling data shows the democrats with a 48.6 to 40.7 congressional lead. The 538 composite generic house polling was dead on in 2018 mid terms, where the democrats if I remember won the nationwide popular vote for the House of Representatives by 8.6 percentage points and picked up 40 seats. Looks like most people have not followed your logic, in 2018 and are not set to follow it now.

        I seem to remember you saying that you yourself vote democratic in the local and state races. I guess even you don’t follow your own logic.

        Funny man.

        trump, the law and order guy, the open the economy back up and COVID is under control guy, has fallen quite a few points since the death of George Floyd, 538 has him at his highest disapproval level since 2017, and he is 15.5 net underwater. He is now losing to Biden by more than 9 points according to 538. Now I am not saying Biden has this in the bag, but trump is doing quite badly as of today, running with all the themes you believe are winners. Your philosophy is not doing well with the voters at present.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 6:24 pm

        538 was still giving Clinton a 90% chance of winning at 9pm election night.

        I have zero interest in 538.

        Biden’s polls are once again dropping.

        One of the few pollsters to get the swing states right in 2016, says that Trump is running atleast 1pt better than in 2016.

        He also says that in 2016 there was atleast a 2% “bradley effect” – voters who voted for Trump but would not tell pollsters they were going to.
        He says the toxic environment democrats have created in the past 4 years has doubled that.
        He said if the Election was today – Trump would win the swings states by margins larger than in 2016.

        We have seen 2 special elections in the past month with democrats facing republicans.
        One was 1 week ago in NY.

        In CA25 there was a 13pt swing to republicans since 2018, and even an 5pt gain from 2016 when republicans won CA25

        The NY district was even more lopsided. There was about a 25pt swing since 2018.

        Both were in the midst of C19 and the NY district was in the midst of the riots.

        I do not know what will happen in november – but I do not trust you or 538 – for good reason.

        Trump’s approval rate today is 2pts higher than Obama’s was at the end of June in 2012.

        I am still predicting a red wave.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 6:25 pm

        “I seem to remember you saying that you yourself vote democratic in the local and state races.”
        On occasion. I vote for the best candidate.

        “I guess even you don’t follow your own logic.”
        Does not follow.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 29, 2020 6:53 pm

        “trump, the law and order guy”
        He is being attacked on the right, now for NOT pushing law and order.

        “the open the economy back up and COVID is under control guy,”
        Thus far the best results have STILL been those places that DID NOT shutdown their economy.

        The US deaths/million is still lower than most of europe.
        As is the CFR

        “has fallen quite a few points since the death of George Floyd,”
        For the past 6 months Polls have been self contradictory – national Polls are way out of sync with state polls and even state polls are not tracking actual election results.

        “538”
        538 Really ?
        RCP has Trump at 42, his low was 37.
        RDT has Trump at 47, Obama was at 46 on this date in 2012.

        “15.5 net underwater.”
        Obama was underwater about the same.

        “Now I am not saying Biden has this in the bag”
        Biden is not winning.
        You can engage in wishful thinking. You can pray to the polling gods.
        But the polsters who got 2016 right are saying Trump would beat Biden by more than Clinton if the election was held today.

        The good news for D’s is that Biden is less hated than Clinton.
        The bad news is that his support is actually weaker.

        Trump can absolutely count on almost 90% of his support.
        Biden can not count on 50% of his.

        “but trump is doing quite badly as of today, running with all the themes you believe are winners. Your philosophy is not doing well with the voters at present.”

        Not my philosphy – it is theirs.

        Biden has not merely lost the law enforcement vote he has sold it almost in its entirety to Trump. There are 900K law enforcement in the US, Add their families and close friends, add other first responders. and consider the fact that most of these people live in the suburbs – the critical demographic.

        I suspect that some of the current weakness in Trump’s polls is anger among the law an order types that are going to vote and not going to vote for Biden.
        They will get over their anger at Trump when they hit the election booth – and they vote.

        Gun sales FOR THE YEAR are up 48%. 40% of buyers are NEW buyers. of those 40% are WOMEN.

        6.5M background checks in 2020.

        Do you think people buying guns are voting for Biden ?
        What about the women buying there first gun ?

        I noted the NY and CA25 special elections – are you saying those are flukes ?

        Worse for D’s is that in primaries left extremists are slaughtering moderate dems.

        We are going to have the most polarized congress ever.
        And Democrats are going to come to the election with that in November.

        The polls do not concern me.

        But you should be concerned.

  18. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    June 29, 2020 5:12 pm

    Without me wandering into this conservative gripe session there would just be, well, a conservative gripe session, using cherry picked conservative universe “facts” (like the ones Dave provided showing that the Swedes are doing well with their approach to COVID, when they are decidedly Not doing well, do not have anything close to herd immunity and have lost a lot of people who would otherwise be alive).

    I am about burned out on this. But I will leave TNM with this link. I don’t believe it tells a completely balanced or objective story, but it is factually correct and I agree with its basic idea.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-republican-choice/

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 7:25 pm

      “using cherry picked conservative universe “facts” (like the ones Dave provided showing that the Swedes are doing well with their approach to COVID when they are decidedly Not doing well,”
      Belgium. UK Spain, Italy all have higher death rates.
      That is not cherry picking. It is just sorting countries by death rate.

      “do not have anything close to herd immunity”
      “and have lost a lot of people who would otherwise be alive).”
      Not as a result of policy.
      Sweden had a higher death rate than other nordic countries because they have radically different elder care – fewer very large nursing homes – like the US.
      Other nordic countries have more and smaller elder care units.
      The swedes admit they screwed up early on and allowed C19 to get into their NH’s.
      They have solved that problem and since things are improving.

      I do not know if Sweden has reached Herd Immunity.

      It does not matter much. Infections will continue – there and here until that happens.
      At the moment the US has the largest percent of confirmed cases per million of population.
      Either the US is testing better than the rest of the world or we might be closest to immunity.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 7:27 pm

      I honestly do not understand why you wish to continue to argue about the election.

      You may be right, you may be wrong, regardless lost will change in the next 4 months.

  19. June 29, 2020 5:29 pm

    OK reading all the “he is racists”, “they are racist” and oin and on no one is getting anywhere.

    So someone please post a link to information that is not New York times, fox News, or any of the other alphabet news agencies or those with a political agenda, but something form a sociology study or something like that, explaining why all the problems in this country with race seems to be centered in northern and western democrat run cities.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 29, 2020 7:29 pm

      Studies might be nice – but you have made an observation that seems to be obviously correct.

      Today we are not seeing things come apart in Selma or montgomery or birmingham.

      we are seeing it in LA and Seattle and NYC and Chicago, and …

  20. dhlii permalink
    June 29, 2020 8:49 pm

    Excellent book review by Matt Taibbi – a liberal I love, exposing the recialist nonsense of the moment.

    https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility

    • June 29, 2020 11:01 pm

      I used to hate Taibbi. I don’t recall him being so insightful. But, lately, I’ve been really liking his articles. This one was very good. (Of course, the whole idea of white fragility is idiotic, lol)

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 3:00 am

        Matt Taibbi has become a pretty amazing voice of sanity coming from the left.

        I am not sure when this started – but it is not recent.

  21. June 30, 2020 1:13 pm

    I really don’t know how to reply to Roby’s accusations other than to insist that my columns on race issues are balanced between sympathy for black victims and skepticism about the distorted BLM narrative that blacks are somehow uniquely targeted for injustice and even murder. I can’t see anything immoderate about this:

    “We should acknowledge that black people have been victimized throughout much of our history, and that they still suffer from ugly vestiges of racism today, without demonizing white people and branding all of American history as an endless chronicle of oppression.

    “In an ideal world, the aim of black progress would be full equality, not special treatment based on skin color. And the conversation on race would be a two-way street – a conversation between equals.”

    That pretty much sums up my position. You can’t expect me to join the woke team and rail against historical personages like Washington and Grant for the few flaws in their otherwise admirable legacies. I’m aware that some of my observations are too blunt for current sensibilities; I cal

    • June 30, 2020 1:35 pm

      Premature post. (I hate that we can’t edit our comments.) Anyway, yes — some of my observations are too blunt for current sensibilities; I’m not afraid to call a thug a thug.

      As a resident of a mixed-race neighborhood in Philadelphia, I have a ringside seat as an observer. My immediate neighborhood ranges from working class to rich, and it’s probably one-third black (including wealthy blacks). Just a few blocks away, on the other side of Germantown Avenue, is a solidly black “inner city” neighborhood. I actually have a few friends on that side of the avenue. We like each other, and I’ve helped them out by giving them work (along with an occasional handout), but the prevailing culture there is a recipe for disaster.

      I remember Roby taking issue with my theory that blacks tend to be more right-brained than whites: more intuitive, expressive and impulsive; less concerned about strategy and consequences of actions. It’s a generalization, of course (I’m sure the wealthy blacks in my neighborhood are more left-brained), but I’ve found it to hold up under sustained observation.

      Western society rewards left-brain skills, and our schools are structured to prioritize left-brain learning. Any wonder that so many black kids drop out? I’d love to see schools develop new teaching methods based on their learning style. It won’t happen, of course, because we’re not allowed to admit any differences between races. So I suspect the status quo will prevail: more black poverty, more protests and mayhem, more polarization. That’s America in the 21st century.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 4:07 pm

        What ? You think you can explain your way out of being an oppressor ?

        Your White, your male – your a racist.

        You think the left will allow the existance of a moderate position ?

        You have black freinds – clearly you are racist.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 4:11 pm

        I do not know that I agree with your theory.

        I also do not care. We must be free to discuss propositions that might be unpleasant, or we are not free.

        You can accuse nature of racism all you want – it does not care.

        Can we explore the correlation of race with IQ, Violence, physical skills, ….
        Without being labeled racist ?

        Not today.

        There are problems we can not fix, because we are not allowed to explore all the possible causes.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 4:15 pm

        I do not think I agree with your left brain/right brain hypothesis.

        But I would note something related. The apogee of Human development has been in different places in the world at different times.

        Since the end of the middle ages it has been in the west.

        Our principles, and values and philosophy have developed successively in different parts of the world. But the last great advances occured in the west.

        Western law, philosophy, economics are the current apogee of humanity.

        Tearing that down makes us worse not better.

      • June 30, 2020 5:45 pm

        Studies have shown that women are more right brained than left brained men. That is why women learn differently than men.

        And I can attest to this difference. When I taught youth soccer, I could tell the girls what to do with a play or with a certain skill. They learned more from verbal commands. To teach the boys, they learned quicker if they were shown that same information and they see it in games. The boys learned from tapes of soccer games.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 30, 2020 3:53 pm

      Rick,

      Get used to it. If you are not the victim – then you must be the oppressor.

    • June 30, 2020 5:24 pm

      Rick taking a moderate position is not acceptable to many. I have said to others that I do not believe the answer to reducing racism can come from Washington D.C. Especially in divided times like this. If one wearing a mask makes them liberals while this not wearing a mask is a sign of conservatism, Washington will never solve the race issue.

      And when looking back to the 60’s, all the gains black Americans made was not because of Washington. It was because they had one fantastic leader that knew how to mobilize the black communities, especially in the south, getting church leaders, local leaders and others marching in peaceful demonstrations that finally resulted in the civil reights legislation. Looking at what is happening in America today, I have no proof and can not support this with and studies, but I believe that racism is more prevalent in the north today than in the south because of MLK. That is not to say that racism does not exist in the south, it does, but looking at the current situation, almost every instance of rioting and demonstrations have occurred in the north and west due to some racist action in those cities. Can the south really hide police brutality and citizen racism that much better than the north? I don’t think so.

      But my point is that the black community needs one voice as their leader. one voice of carrying a vast majority of blacks into peaceful demonstrations, ones where the blacks make sure anyone that wants to make trouble are stopped immediately, And that leader needs to mobalize the local communities to begin workling with local government to make changes needed in their communities, not some idiot from Washington making a law and forcing it down onto “Pea Creek, Montana” as well as Los Angeles. What works one place most likely will not work someplace else.

      We have civil rights laws. Each community needs to find ways of following those and enforcing them. It can not come from Washington.

      • dhlii permalink
        June 30, 2020 9:12 pm

        This is all the perfect example of the nonsense of progressive government.

        Racism is NOT a consequential problem, and aside from getting racism out of government it was never a government problem.

        We have this same nonsense every time there is a mass shooting and we wigg out over gun control.

        Guns too are not a consequential problem.

        The left always fixates on things that will make people feel good but not accomplish anything of consequence.

  22. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    June 30, 2020 8:37 pm

    “I remember Roby taking issue with my theory that blacks tend to be more right-brained than whites: more intuitive, expressive and impulsive; less concerned about strategy and consequences of actions.”

    I cannot positively deny that I took issue, but its not really the kind of statement I would take issue with. My Biology training had a very large genetic component. Blacks are 98% of the running backs in the NFL. As well they are almost as a high percentage of wide receivers and cornerbacks. The races are different, by definition. Charles Murrey has been severely treated for saying that in one small part of one of his books. Its absurd to deny that the races are different. But I totally understand why people are afraid of the that statement, although its true.

    Rick you and I both hate PC. But I think that maybe you hate it so much that you have lost track of the fact that PC is the wrong way of fighting a very real problem. If I am not mis-quoting you, there are instances on TNM where you have asked the question of why oh why blacks feel like African-Americans and not simply Americans. If I have that quote basically correct, in my universe I cannot understand why any intelligent good hearted soul would Not understand that black have such a history in America and such a present, that they feel like their own separate group very often. And Bitterly so.

    I am going post an article in another post about Tim Scott and his many, many traffic stops. I am utterly tired of the idea that everything is hunky dory for blacks in America and that they are mostly just imagining that they are treated worse, especially by the police. Well a good statistical analysis can debunk that myth right? They have been enslaved, lynched, and endured apartheid. They absolutely were strongly discriminated against in every way including professionally and economically in my life time. They are as a result still much poorer and less successful as a group and live very often in dystopian inner cities. The cops harass them even when they are successful and working within the system. Several times a year the cops go all Rambo on some black person or group and kill them without cause and then the cops nearly always get off.

    Meanwhile a notorious race baiter gets the medal of freedom at the SOTU from a race baiting POTUS.

    In my universe there is nothing Fun about someone like Limbaugh. Is there anything Fun about Al Sharpton? Maybe he should get a medal of freedom at some future SOTU? How would you feel about that?

    That ought to explain why blacks are angry and why “woke” whites are angry as well.

    Here is a gem from your latest that really amazed me:

    “Instead of fetishizing black people and granting them a blank check for every demand, “woke” whites should ask themselves whether their attitude is more patronizing than genuinely respectful. In an ideal world, the aim of black progress would be full equality, not special treatment based on skin color. And the conversation on race would be a two-way street – a conversation between equals.

    Yeah, Rick that would be great. I see this sentence as the tired white grievance, those demanding blacks want special treatment, its unfair!

    Oh, The War on White Statues. Now that is a real &^%$# tragedy, white statues are suffering. Excuse my sarcasm.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 30, 2020 11:43 pm

      “Rick you and I both hate PC. But I think that maybe you hate it so much that you have lost track of the fact that PC is the wrong way of fighting a very real problem. ”

      No PC is the wrong way of fighting a very fake problem.

      If there was a real problem, we would not need PC, you would just directly confront the actual problem.

      You used Murray as an example.

      If there are no differences between races – then Murray is a racist.
      If there are differences and Murray is reasonably accurately portraying them – then those attacking him are wrong.

    • dhlii permalink
      June 30, 2020 11:46 pm

      “If I have that quote basically correct, in my universe I cannot understand why any intelligent good hearted soul would Not understand that black have such a history in America and such a present, that they feel like their own separate group very often. And Bitterly so.”

      Are you black ?

      If not, then quit telling us what we must understand about Blacks, and how they feel.

      You do this all the time.

      I doubt you live in the world of facts and logic.

      You spend your time in the world of feelings – often other peoples feelings.

      It is arrogant and RACIST to pretend that you know what black people feel.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 1, 2020 12:37 am

      “I am going post an article in another post about Tim Scott and his many, many traffic stops.”

      I have not been stopped by police as frequently as Tim Scott. But I have likely been stopped far more than you. And more frequently than many blacks.

      I have had good encounters with police – especially since my hair went grey. And bad ones.

      I was once stopped by a police officer on a moped for not wearing a helmet.
      I normally do, but in my state helmets are not necescary for mopeds.

      I told the officer so, he got so angry he pulled me over, called in 2 other cars, and threatened to dismember my moped right there along the side of the road looking for drugs.

      “I am utterly tired of the idea that everything is hunky dory for blacks in America and that they are mostly just imagining that they are treated worse, especially by the police.”

      People who live in high crime neighborhoods have far more encounters with the police.

      “Well a good statistical analysis can debunk that myth right? ”
      Wrong. There are many many many statistical analysis that make it clear there are very few areas of policing where you can find an actual racial signal after regressing the data properly.

      We have a very good idea of the rates of certain crimes – like murder – because the number of hidden bodies are quite small. So we know that blacks are murdered far more frequently than whites – about 4 times as much. And that both blacks and whites are most often murdered by others of the same race. There is no statistical disparity between the number of blacks murdered and the number of blacks arrested, and convicted of murder, as compared to the same statistic for whites.

      I specifically used murders – because the error rate on the number of murders and the race of the victims and perpetrators is small.

      But we find the same for pretty much all other crimes. Crime reports in poor neighborhoods are about 4 times that as better neighborhoods, Arrests in poor neighborhoods are about 4 times that of better neighborhoods.

      There are more police encounters between blacks and police than between people in better neighborhoods and police – because the crime rate is higher and the crime reports are higher. The arrest rate is proportionate to the crime rate between better and worse neighborhoods.

      There is no statistically significant difference between any of the statistics regarding encounters between white police officers and black’s and between black police officers and blacks.

      If you work very very hard you can find a small number of statistics where there is unexplained racial disparity – blacks tend to get more severe sentences than whites.

      Part of that is because the black community leaders in the 80’s demanded greater sentences for Crack than for cocaine. That was a mistake and it is getting corrected.

      But all of it is not explained by that. Still sentencing is done by judges – not police.

      There is some evidence of racial bias in the judiciary.

      We also have a problem because many municiplaities – Fergesson as an example, engage in policing for profit. The police are encouraged to write large numbers of nusiance tickets to raise money for the municipality. This MIGHT be arguably racist. But it is not driven by the police, it is driven by city government – almost always democrat, and usually black.

      Policing for profit has a strong racial signal- but it is mostly black leaders preying on their own.

      If there was systemic racism in policing, it would not be hard to find. In fact it would be in just about everything. Because “systemic racism” MUST be present everywhere – otherwise it is not systemic.

      “They have been enslaved, lynched,”
      No black now alive was enslaved, few if any are the children of people who were enslaved or lynched. Typically you have to go back 4-8 generations to find a relative that was enslaved or lynched.

      According to the lynching museum – there were 8500 lynchings over about 100 years.
      That is bad. But Pol Pot murdered 2M cambodians in a few years. The Hutu in Rwanda murdered 800000 Tutsi in about 90days.

      About 1M Irish died during the great potato famine – which was caused and worsened by English maladministration of Ireland.

      Genghis Khan murdered 5% of the population of the earth

      The point is that bad things happen in the world. Blacks are not the only nor the most heinous of history’s victims.

      “and endured apartheid.”
      That would be South Africa in the 20th century NOT the US.

      “They absolutely were strongly discriminated against in every way including professionally and economically in my life time.”
      Possibly, but the data indicates that TODAY racism is not among the top ten reasons for the outcome of Blacks. That if people – black, white, hispanic do a few things – graduate from HS, Avoid becoming criminals. Get a job – even a crappy one, do not have children before you are capable of taking care of them. do not have children outside of marraige.

      Do these and regardless of your race you have a bright future in the US.
      Do not do these – and regardless of race your prospects are worse.

      “They are as a result still much poorer and less successful as a group and live very often in dystopian inner cities.”

      Historically the worst thing that happened to Blacks “economically” was “the great society”.
      Even liberal lion Daniel Patrick Moynihan based on the data came to the conclusion that the “great society” programs destroyed the black community. That starting slowly after WWI and increasing after WWII there was a building black middle class in the US. That Johnson’s programs devestated the black middle class and destroyed the incentives for blacks to become middle class.

      Prior to the Minimum Wage black unemployment was LOWER than white unemployment.
      Prior to the great society programs blacks had more intact families than whites.

      “The cops harass them even when they are successful and working within the system.”
      Because you say so ?

      “Several times a year the cops go all Rambo on some black person or group and kill them without cause and then the cops nearly always get off.”
      There were 9 unarmed blacks killed by police in 2019. Of those 4 officers were prosecuted.
      Of the rest the blacks were reaching for the officers gun, or phyically attacking the officer.

      Micheal Brown tried to take the Officers Gun.
      In the Rayshard Brooks case in Atlanta recently – everything went find until the officers attempted to Cuff Brooks who had been driving drunk, and Brooks started a fight with TWO officers and stole the taser from one. That could just as easily have been a gun.

      The FACTS Robby is that your systemically racist police today does not hold water.

      BUT one final fact. Since George Floyd the number of blacks killed by blacks in this country has DOUBLED – why ?

      Because the police are too busy controlling riots to prevent crime.
      Because in NYC Deblassio disbanded the Anti-Crime unit – you know the “racist” guys doing “stop and frisk” – resulting in a 358% increase in the murder rate in NYC – almost all blacks killing blacks.

      Atleast 3 innocent children have been killed in increased Drive buy shootings in Chicago.

      So what do you want Robby – the “Racist” police – or lots of dead black people.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 1, 2020 12:59 am

      “Meanwhile a notorious race baiter gets the medal of freedom at the SOTU from a race baiting POTUS.”

      If you accuse ANYONE of Racism again – I am demanding that you prove it.

      I will ask you to prove it, if you call Hilter racist – because you defame people at the drop of a hat.

      If you defame anyone over anything – you are obligated to PROVE it.

      Makinf false accusations of others is immoral – and the burden when you make an accusation is on you.

      You have continued to repeat these accusations that Limbaugh is a Racist, Trump is a racist.
      You have failed to prove them – or any of the defamatory statements you have made about others.

      This is precisely why PC is immorality.

      When you make false accusations you are engaged in the verbal equivalent of rioting.

      “In my universe there is nothing Fun about someone like Limbaugh.”
      Don’t care. You do not like Limbaugh – thats fine. I doubt I do either.
      But I care when you accuse ANYONE of racism.

      “Is there anything Fun about Al Sharpton?”
      If you make false accusations about Sharpton I will go after you too.
      So stick to what you can prove.
      Do not care if you like him – I don’t.

      “Maybe he should get a medal of freedom at some future SOTU? How would you feel about that?”
      Who Knows Biden will probably give him one.

      “That ought to explain why blacks are angry and why “woke” whites are angry as well.”
      There are more problems with “woke” whites like you right now than Blacks.

      If the 15 people that the Federal Government is seeking for tearing down statutes – 12 are white.

      These idiots have not just torn down confederate statues. They have actually torn down or defaced statues of Lincoln, Grant, abolitionists.

      “Woke” whites like you are by far the biggest problem.

      >“Instead of fetishizing black people and granting them a blank check for every demand, >“woke” whites should ask themselves whether their attitude is more patronizing than >genuinely respectful. In an ideal world, the aim of black progress would be full equality, not >special treatment based on skin color. And the conversation on race would be a two-way >street – a conversation between equals.

      Yup, Rick nails it – the big race problem today is racists like you.
      Black people do not need your help.

      “Yeah, Rick that would be great. I see this sentence as the tired white grievance, those demanding blacks want special treatment, its unfair!”
      Aparently you can not read. Rick did not claim blacks wanted special treatment, he asserted that woke whites like you are demanding special treatment for blacks.

      “Oh, The War on White Statues. Now that is a real &^%$# tragedy, white statues are suffering. Excuse my sarcasm.”

      It is not a war on white statues. It is a war on western culture – and as noted it is not blacks engaged in it, it is idiots like you.

      Western culture is far from perfect.
      But it has given us representative govenrment, individual liberty.
      Slavery was ended in the west FIRST.
      The philosophy and ideas of the enlightenment put into practice have given the world the greatest improvement of standard of living that has ever occured.

      Feel free to criticize – that’s fine. Washington owned Slaves. Martin Luther King was a Philanderer.

      We should recognize that our hero’s have clay feet. Nothing new. In fact it is very important.
      Their imperfections are reasons to beleive we can aspire to more.

      But what idiot “woke” whites such as yourself are seeking – hopefully in your case unwhittingly, is not to expose their faults but to destroy the ideas the philosophy they gave us.

      Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
      George Orwell, 1984

  23. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    June 30, 2020 8:42 pm

    Ironically this piece was written in 2016. But hey, Scott is alive right? So things are better than they once were and all this fuss by black americans and Woke whites is really very hard to understand, what on earth do these people want, when will they ever be satisfied?

    “Following last week’s deadly shootings, South Carolina Sen. Tim Scott gave a deeply personal speech on the Senate floor in Washington, D.C., on Wednesday about the “deep divide” between communities and law enforcement.

    While many law enforcement officers do good, he said, some do not. “I’ve experienced it myself.”

    Scott revealed that he has been stopped seven times in the course of one year as an elected official. “Was I speeding sometimes? Sure. But the vast majority of the time I was pulled over for driving a new car in the wrong neighborhood or something else just as trivial.”

    Obama Walks Fine Line On Race And Policing
    POLITICS
    Obama Walks Fine Line On Race And Policing
    Scott is one of two current African-American senators, and he’s the only black Republican in the body.

    LISTEN: Funeral After Funeral, Obama Calls For Healing And Action On Guns
    POLITICS
    LISTEN: Funeral After Funeral, Obama Calls For Healing And Action On Guns
    He described several encounters with police, including one where he was stopped because the officer suspected his car was stolen. He described a similar incident that happened to his brother, a command sergeant major in the U.S. Army. And he told the story of a staffer who was “pulled over so many times here in D.C. for absolutely no reason other than driving a nice car.” The staffer eventually traded in his Chrysler for a “more obscure form of transportation” because “he was tired of being targeted.”

    “I do not know many African-American men who do not have a very similar story to tell no matter their profession. No matter their income, no matter their disposition in life,” he said.

    He asked his Senate colleagues to “imagine the frustration, the irritation, the sense of a loss of dignity that accompanies each of those stops.”

    Scott also described walking into an office building on Capitol Hill and having an officer ask him to show his ID even though he wore a Senate pin.

    While he is thankful he has not faced bodily harm, he said, “there is absolutely nothing more frustrating, more damaging to your soul than when you know you’re following the rules and being treated like you are not.”

    “We must find a way to fill these cracks in the very foundation of our country,” he said.

    The senator ended with a plea to his colleagues to “recognize that just because you do not feel the pain, the anguish of another, does not mean it does not exist.””

    https://www.npr.org/2016/07/14/485995136/watch-black-gop-senator-says-hes-been-stopped-7-times-by-police-in-a-year

    • dhlii permalink
      July 1, 2020 1:06 am

      Metro DC Police:

      As of 2017, about 52% of sworn personnel were black, 36% were white, 9% were Hispanic, and 4% were Asian.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 1, 2020 1:07 am

      And yet democrats filibustered Scott.

  24. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    June 30, 2020 8:53 pm

    My parting comment. I was born on third base in many ways. The wind has been at my back all my life as long as I make an effort. Call me a “guilty liberal” for recognizing that. But I do actually feel for the people in this world who were born in a shithole with the wind constantly blowing against them. That certainly includes African Americans as a group. Am I personally guilty of causing harm? No. But when I read for example Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee as a child it hurt my soul. It was my culture that did this not so long ago. Yes, it is hard to believe that I have it so good when others have had it and still have it so much worse. Yes, I do think there is such a thing as Noblesse Oblige. Yes, I think it would be a much better world if people who belong to me basic culture acted with some degree of empathy and understanding to the descendents of the people our ancestors slaughtered and abused. No, I do not just like feeling superior.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 1, 2020 1:30 am

      “But I do actually feel for the people in this world who were born in a shithole with the wind constantly blowing against them. ”

      My daughter was born in China, abandoned – probably to die, and spent 2 years in an orphange in China that makes the worst conditons of Blacks in the US look like heaven.

      If you wish to “feel” for people who did not have the advantages you did – there are about 7B of them.

      “But when I read for example Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee as a child it hurt my soul.”
      So, no one is pissing on you for having feelings.

      If you are inspired to do something for native americans, of for blacks, or for starving kids in Haiti – go for it no one is stopping you.
      We will be praising you and wishing you well.

      But you are not free to force the rest of us to chase the causes that matter to you.

      I am personally active in alot of charitable activities, and contribute to others.

      I have given thousands to orphans in china and other parts of the world.
      I have given time and effort and money to the homeless in the US.

      I do not demand that you do as I do, or that you support the causes I support.

      Why do you demand that I must support yours ?

      In the end – real freedom, has lifted the world. The global population has doubled since I was a kid, so has the standard of living – starvation does not exist anywhere in the world today but for politics. There is no nation that could not feed its own people – without outside help, if it could end civil wars and warlords.

      All the charity every done all added together has done only a tiny fraction of the good that a small increase in individual liberty throughout the world has done in the past 50 years.

      But still – give to whatever charity you want – give your time, give your money.
      Persuade me if you can, and I will try to persuade you.

      But if you try to FORCE me to support your charity – you do evil, not good.
      No possible amount of charity can significantly improve the world.
      But forced charity will make it worse.

      If something tugs are your heartstrings – I have no qualms with that.
      But my heartstrings are spoken for, and you can not force me to drown in your emotions, when I have a sea of my own to swim in.

      “It was my culture that did this not so long ago. Yes, it is hard to believe that I have it so good when others have had it and still have it so much worse.”
      About 95% of the world have it worse that you.

      “Yes, I do think there is such a thing as Noblesse Oblige.”
      No one is stopping you from charity.

      Only forcing your views on what is important on everyone else.

      “Yes, I think it would be a much better world if people who belong to me basic culture acted with some degree of empathy and understanding to the descendents of the people our ancestors slaughtered and abused. No, I do not just like feeling superior.”
      Again – go for it.
      But do not riot or loot or engage in arson, and do not try to FORCE the rest of us to care about what you think is important rather than whit we think is important.

      Until 1965 Asian americans were barred from living outside of specific enclaves in most of the US.

      Black american are the 1% of the rest of the world.

      Not so long ago you were bleeding for central american immigrants.
      Most of those have far shittier lives than US blacks.

      Those of us who are US citizens – regardless of race have won the lottery of life.
      If you were born black in Baltimore – thank god you were not born in Sudan, or Burundi or the congo.
      Or Venezuela or Cuba.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 1, 2020 9:18 am

        “If you were born black in Baltimore – thank god you were not born in Sudan, or Burundi or the congo.
        Or Venezuela or Cuba.”

        Yes, you think you are very clever and have found a rationale for not giving a damn about american blacks. Honestly, you were born to be pretty much heartless and to find voluminous ways to justify it.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 3:35 pm

        “Yes, you think you are very clever and have found a rationale for not giving a damn about american blacks. Honestly, you were born to be pretty much heartless and to find voluminous ways to justify it.”

        Back to slander and false moral accusations.

        How many meals have you bought, cooked, provided to the homeless ?
        How much have you given to do something about people who are really in shitty circumstances – whether in the US or here ?

        Facts do not care about your feelings.

        But you even lose the empathy contest.
        It is not obvious you have ever done a damn thing for anyone else.
        You take credit for what government has done – which is evil.
        You deserve nothing but blame for stealing, and screwing the very people you sought to help.

        Please tell me what destructive force impacting black lives in the past 50 years did not come from you ?

        US minorities a better off today SOLELY because of the economic growth that has more than doubled standards of living.
        All the left wing nut programs have impacted minorities NEGATIVELY.

        Are minority schools better today ? No they are worse. You have spent 4 times as much per student as 50 years ago – and in most every measurable way minority education is WORSE.
        Minority educational outcomes are WORSE.

        Black families were more intact than white ones in the 50’s. Now they have mostly been destroyed. You did that.

        Absolutely Blacks should demand that “woke” whites kneel and beg forgiveness.

        I expect exactly the same things from the blacks that I know as everyone else.
        I expect that if they work hard and act morally they will succeed, and if they do not they will fail. I expect that of blacks. whites, asians, …..

        You have lower expectations – YOU think that blacks are inferior, that the can not succeed without your help.

        You are the racist.

  25. June 30, 2020 9:02 pm

    I don’t know that Roby will be back any time soon, which is unfortunate, since he basically made some unfair and untrue accusations about Rick, and then bailed on the discussion.

    My view of this is that race is really not the issue at hand here. As I pointed out earlier, BLM is not an organization that represents the average black American…it’s a Marxist organization that is connected with ActBlue, a Democrat fundraising organization, which also helps several progressive and leftist groups to raise money. Essentially, donations to BLM are processed by ActBlue, which takes a cut of the money donated. https://justthenews.com/accountability/donations-black-lives-matter-are-funnelled-through-democratic-fundraising-group

    And, there have been tens of millions donated to BLM since the George Floyd riots. Corporations have made some very major donations, along with sending emails to their mailing lists and posting notices on their websites announcing that they “support the black community” through BLM. So the Democrat Party has pulled in quite a nice cut, while positioning itself to benefit politically from its connection, not only to BLM, but other leftist groups such as Antifa.

    Meanwhile, if you’re looking for articles on this in the mainstream press, you won’t find them.

    • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
      June 30, 2020 10:13 pm

      Bullshit. A right-wing conspiracy theory.

      https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/donations-to-black-lives-matter-group-dont-go-to-dnc/

      But nothing will stop you from believing it and Dave will jump in and swear its the truth.

      “So the Democrat Party has pulled in quite a nice cut, while positioning itself to benefit politically from its connection, not only to BLM, but other leftist groups such as Antifa.”

      Just put it into words how the Dem party is going to benefits from its connection to the violent thugs of antifa. Can you do it? Can you make a coherent explanation of how Antifa helps the chances of the dem party? I say you cannot. Its bullshit.

      Try to grasp the idea that BLM is actually about exactly what it seems to be about, and is not some commie organization just pretending to be working to improve the same things Tim Scott was describing in the article I posted above. Its a lot simpler than your convoluted conspiracy theories. Try to grasp the idea that there really is some actual thing that touched a majority of Americans when they watched Floyd get murdered and connected with the shit that black Americans live with. Is that so damn hard?

      Or you can believe that a majority of Americans have been duped by commies and that Antifa will get the dem party into the oval office.

      And you think I have lost it.

      • June 30, 2020 10:56 pm

        Roby, you did not even read the source that I posted. You posted a “fact check” of something that the article did not allege.

        ActBlue is a fundraising organization that raises money for Democrat-aligned progressive organizations Your factcheck.org link (I won’t even get into that site’s egregious political bias) says that “donations to BLM don’t go to the DNC”

        So your “fact check” may be correct. But it does not refute anything alleged in the article that I posted.

        You find evidence that ActBlue does not take a 3.5% fee for processing BLM donations, and I will read and seriously consider it. In fact, you find evidence that the Democrat Party has condemned Antifa’s violence in any way, and I will consider that too.

        But don’t come back at me with your subjective (and very biased) belief that I don’t understand how horrified and angered people were at the George Floyd murder. Because that’s actually bullshit. And it’s off-topic to boot.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 2:13 am

        It is not the 3.5% fee that is the serious issue.

        It is that BLM itself is not a charity and contributions to it are not tax deductible.

        So very little of the money going to ActBlue in the name of BLM is likely to go to BLM – so far it is small potatoes to pay a very small number of salaries.

        Under certain circumstances ActBlue can unilaterally redirect the money contributed to ActBlue, more broadly they can do so with BLM’s permission.

        And ultimately they MUST do one or the other – because BLM is not tax exempt and can not take much of the money without creating a huge IRS problem.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 30, 2020 11:31 pm

        No, I posted a fact check of something You alleged: “So the Democrat Party has pulled in quite a nice cut.”

        This, which you claimed, is rebutted. No, I did not bother reading your conspiracy theory article, I just read your characterization (or it seems mischaracterization) of it. How much time do you think I have for right wing conspiracy theories? No cut went to the DNC. You are wrong.

        And I repeat: Just put it into words how the Dem party is going to benefits from its connection to the violent thugs of antifa. Can you do it? Can you make a coherent explanation of how Antifa helps the chances of the dem party? I say you cannot. Its bullshit.

        “But don’t come back at me with your subjective (and very biased) belief that I don’t understand how horrified and angered people were at the George Floyd murder. Because that’s actually bullshit. And it’s off-topic to boot.”

        You perhaps think they were horrified at one particular murder. It goes much much deeper. You have been waxing hysterical that so many people are actually sympathizing with BLM. The Floyd murder triggered something more than anger at one single murder, that is what seems to have escaped you. BLM stands for the whole problem and a very large and terrifying to the GOP number of people are sympathetic. Your commie angle on BLM is pathetic and misses the whole point of what people are angry about.

        “In fact, you find evidence that the Democrat Party has condemned Antifa’s violence in any way, and I will consider that too.”

        Done, easily by pasting in a fragement the words of the thing you wanted me to find: “Democrat Party has condemned Antifa’s violence.” I found a number of examples but I can only paste in one here. Next time don’t be so damned lazy, paste your own key words in if you want to know something.

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/30/pelosi-condemns-violent-actions-of-antifa-protesters/

        Now, your turn, you find me evidence that your trump has condemned the White Power video he tweeted and then deleted. Not some flunky, trump himself, the POTUS. Distanced himself with his own words from his white power tweet.

        Your ActBlue and antifa profiting the dems post is complete nonsense. No, I do not think you understand much of what is going on.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 2:18 am

        We have no idea at this time what the “cut” of democrats will be.

        ActBlue is as is pretty obvious an umbrella organization for Democratic causes, most of which are political.

        Priscilla did not allege that the money is literally going to the DNC.

        But it is likely to expect that alot of it will end up in Political action directly favoring democrats in 2020.

        Just to be clear – I do not care. I want anybody to be able to give as much as they want to anybody else for political purposes.

        So long as no one is decieved – and that appears not to be the case – I do not care.

        But claims that this will prove a political financial windfall for democrats is true.

        But I think it comes at a high price.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 2:19 am

        “Just put it into words how the Dem party is going to benefits from its connection to the violent thugs of antifa.”

        Their not. It is going to hurt them.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 2:41 am

        “You perhaps think they were horrified at one particular murder. ”
        The current nationwide spike in BLM popularity is tied to this ONE murder, as well as general public misperceptions about the scale of actual killings of unarmed blacks by police.

        “It goes much much deeper. You have been waxing hysterical that so many people are actually sympathizing with BLM.”

        They do not sympathize with BLM – they sympathize with what they think BLM stands for.

        “The Floyd murder triggered something more than anger at one single murder, that is what seems to have escaped you.”

        There are lots of factors – a major one being the very high unemployment among young people as a whole and black young people right now.

        Those out in the streets are mostly young – and mostly VERY left.

        But so long as the media papers over the violence and hides the actual ideology,
        you are correct a very large number of people are “sympathetic”.

        “BLM stands for the whole problem”
        There is no consequential “whole problem”.

        “and a very large and terrifying to the GOP number of people are sympathetic.”

        While there are numerous facets to this.

        I would expect your hopes to be dashed.

        Mass shootings also drive people to a frenzy for a while – it fades.

        These seems to have more leggs, but it also have numerous large downsides.

        While CHAZ could have gone worse for the left – it is not going well.

        Almost no one is looking at what is happening in Seattle and wants it.
        CHAZ is undermining all this “sympathy” you are ranting about.
        It is also pulling the blinders off and showing the core ideology of the protestors as far left communist, and anarchists. The Seattle mayor did not get her “summer of love”.

        Further we are seeing violent Crime rise across the country, that is unlikely to return to normal anytime soon.

        The press has papered over the violence – which fortunately did not rise to the level of the LA riots, but is still worse than the MSM has painted.

        Regardless, the longer this goes on the bigger the backlash will be.

        Trump has problems now – with the Right, because he is coming across weak.
        He is in a difficult bind – he needs to act forcefully to solidify his base, but he can not afford to come across too authoritarian or he will alienate the middle.

        But time is on his side, not democrats.

        “Your commie angle on BLM is pathetic and misses the whole point of what people are angry about.”
        People are angry about alot of things. George Floyd and BLM will not only not get you to election day, it will ultimately make election day worse for democrats.

        Just as Trump is having a problem with his own base – democrats are having problems too.
        This is all happening in democratic cities. You already have a brewing war between the protestors and the Democratic political leaders.

        Just as republicans are not happy because Trump is not “keeping them safe”.
        People in Chicago, NYC, Seattle, etc and not happy with their own democratic leaders.

        This does not end well for democrats. It does not matter whether the protestors or the establishment win. There are no real winners in a civil war.
        It does not even matter if this turns into open conflict – though it already has at low levels.

        Democrats must give these protestors something big – or they are not voting.
        And if they do – they will alienate the middle.

        Worse still they MUST bring crime under control – and that is probably now impossible.
        The police may not get the Blu Flu, but you have destroyed their morale.
        You will not get the policing needed to bring crime back under control without boosting police morale.

        Basically you have a big mess coming.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        June 30, 2020 11:52 pm

        In fact even Dave has tried to tell you that while there may be Marxists in BLM it is not a marxist or even an ideological movement. Use key words, look it up.

        If you are going to continually swallow these kinds of right wing conspiracy theories from now till election day you will have a collapse. Why don’t you try to understand that this time around a majority of people actually are understanding the shit that African Americans have to try to survive? And no, that is not good for the GOP or trump. But it is good for the country.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 2:54 am

        Please read what I have said. This is not a “look it up” thing.

        The BLM organization is marxist. It is deliberately “crypto-marxist”.
        Even the not strictly affliated leaders are marxists or just plain lunatics.

        The actual protestors are young whites and blacks – mostly unemployed, or students home from college. They lean STONGLY very far left.

        But massive numbers of people from all political walks have responding with shock to the killing of George Floyd.

        This is little different from what happens with every mass shooting.

        While it appears this has more leggs than a mass shooting – the odds of this sustaining to the election are near zero.

        WORSE, is this creates numerous losing problems for democrats.

        The rising crime is problematic for Trump – he looks weak to his base, and he can not afford that, and he also has to be careful about strong action as the press is going to highlight every mistake and it is not possible to act without making mistakes, and that will hurt him with moderates. But Trump can navigate that.

        The problem on the left is more severe.

        Not just BLM but the protestors or the street ARE pretty far left.
        They must be given satisfaction before the election or they are not voting.
        And there is nothing that they can be given that will not harm democrats with the center.

        And regardless, you have created a crime problem that is not going away anytime soon, Which Trump is going to hang arround the neck of democrats like a millstone.
        And frankly Trump needs to do nothing. Voters will do this for him.

        Next: A bunch of statues is not a big deal. Except they are symbols.
        There is a plurality of people who do not want Confederate statues torn down.

        Defacing Lincoln and Washington is really really really stupid.

        But ultimately the statues are symbols – and everyone knows it.

        They are symbols of very many things.

        One of the things destroying them symbolizes is “America was never great”
        Do you really think that the Democratic party wants to own that symbolism ?

        The other is anarchy – that is not working for you either.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 3:01 am

        Robby
        “If you are going to continually swallow these kinds of right wing conspiracy theories”

        The only right wing conspiracy theory is this fictitious one in the mind of the left.

        You and your link have misrepresented Owens tweet, misrepresented Priscilla.

        While I am not concerned about what is occuring with donations to BLM through Act Blue.

        Everyone should be able to contribute politically as they please – without limits.

        That does not mean that Priscilla’s characterization of the BLM contributions as ultimately serving democrats politically is false.
        It is correct.

        There is no right wing conspiracy theory.
        I have so far found NO ONE on the right saying this money is going directly to Biden or the DNC. They are all saying the Money going to BLM is going to/being used to politically benefit democrats – which it is.

        And later in the election when you rant about wherever it is that Trump gets money from – remember this.

        Anyone should be free to contribute whatever they want to whoever they want, or whatever issues they want.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 3:11 am

        I would note two things.

        1). If Trump said this you would be ranting racism.
        2). This Biden was far more coherent than the one running today.

        https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/07/politics/biden-1993-speech-predators/index.html

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 3:14 am
      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 1:44 am

        “Bullshit. A right-wing conspiracy theory.”

        Do you read your own links ?

        You can not contribute to BLM directly – they are not a 501(c)3.
        Contributions to BLM are routed through “ActBlue”

        Your own link confirms that.
        Further though ActBlue works are a clearing house for a number of charities, contributions to ActBlue can potentially end up going to any ActBlue affiliate – not necessarily the one you chose to find – and that includes numerous democratic political causes.

        Currently only a tiny portions of Contributions to BLM through ActBlue are going to BLM.
        And those pretty much exclusively pay salaries for a small number of key BLM people.

        None of this is “secret”.

        Because it is done openly, I do not have a problem with it.

        That said the “right wing conspiracy theory” is TRUE.

        In fact the only FALSE thing is the claim that Owens said the money went to the DNC

        Here is Owens actual tweet

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 1:47 am

        “Just put it into words how the Dem party is going to benefits from its connection to the violent thugs of antifa. Can you do it? Can you make a coherent explanation of how Antifa helps the chances of the dem party? I say you cannot. Its bullshit.”

        I agree – though democratic campaigns will likely benefit financially from the money going purportedly to BLM – that can not really go to BLM as they are not a charity.

        Ultimately this whole thing will prove a political disaster for democrats.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 2:02 am

        “Try to grasp the idea that BLM is actually about exactly what it seems to be about, and is not some commie organization”

        Not either/or.

        There are myriads of people some black some not protesting. Most of those are genuinely engaged in peaceful protests – even if it is misguided.

        At the same time the actual BLM corporate entity – as independent of the myriads of protesters identifying themselves with BLM, actually is a “commie organization”.

        The three principles in BLM are avowed communists. They are wise enough, they do not give interviews and they do not speak publicly. They and BLM function as organizers.

        But many BLM leaders – who are not formally affiliated with BLM – but are inextricably identified with BLM, have said all kinds of very stupid, sometimes communistic things.

        I would further note – as you can tell from watching most of this. Almost all of this is young whites and blacks. And the vast majority of those are on the FAR LEFT relative to this country.

        And this poses a major problem for the democratic party.

        To some extent what we are seeing right now is NOT some big Black thing – even thought there is an element of that present. It is actually a tear in the democratic party.

        These are the Bernie Bro’s or the Warren Supporters, these are the far left of the democratic party that did not win the democratic primary telling the democratic moderates – the Biden supporters that there is a high price to be paid for their support.

        And democrats have a serious problem. They can not hope to win in november if their far left flank stays home. If younger democrats do not vote in large numbers.

        At the same time, paying the price the far left demands to MAYBE vote – young voters have a horrible track record – it is far easier to get them to riot than vote, that will alienate moderates and moderate dems.

        Robby, it does not matter how high Biden polls – assuming the polls are even accurate.

        If he can not get both young democratic voters who really are socialists, to vote, AND moderate dems and the majority of moderates to vote – Biden is going to be slaughtered.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 2:09 am

        “Or you can believe that a majority of Americans have been duped by commies and that Antifa will get the dem party into the oval office.

        And you think I have lost it.”

        Few have been duped.

        To the extent BLM has large public support right now – it is because it is an aspiration – NOT that strongly identified with the formal BLM organization.

        If people are being duped into contributing to Democratic political causes – they are being openly duped.

        If you are contribution to BLM and do not realize you are actually contributing to ActBlue
        Then you are as stupid as those people influenced by Russian memes in 2016.

        Regardless, I do not care who you contribute to.
        So long as you do not care who I contribute to.

        Get rid of the last vestiges of campaign finance laws and this is solely about political points and nothing else.

        The democrats problem is not BLM money.

        It is trying to get two blocks of voters that are not compatible with each other to the polls on election day.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 1, 2020 9:02 am

        “I agree – though democratic campaigns will likely benefit financially from the money going purportedly to BLM – that can not really go to BLM as they are not a charity.”

        You have based this on a string of hypotheticals. I highly doubt you are correct. If you are correct something is wrong, yes.

        So prove it, don’t hand wave the money from BLM into the Dem party through ActBlu. Prove it. If you do I Will care.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 2:27 pm

        “You have based this on a string of hypotheticals. I highly doubt you are correct. If you are correct something is wrong, yes.”

        Hypothetical no – mildly speculative – it must be, it is about the future.

        FACTS:

        BLM is not at this time tax exempt. Any donations that are actually paid to BLM will be taxed.
        This is why BLM is getting money through ActBlue.

        When you donate through ActBlue – your donations can be redirected to different ActBlue participants. That is AcBlue’s formal terms. If you contrinuted – you accepted that.

        The money can be redirected with BLM’s permission.
        It can be redirected should BLM not draw the money within a short perscribed time at ActBlue’s discretion.

        ActBlue’s mission is to advance BLUE – Democratic causes – all are political, some are specifically for the benefit of the democratic party.

        These things are not hypothetical. They are all facts or terms and conditions.

        As I have said – I have no problem with this.
        I do not care if money donated the BLM goes to Biden’s campaign.
        I do not expect that, but it is possible.

        Regardless, if you donated to BLM through ActBlue – you knew this or should have.

        “Prove it” – Why ? It is part of the terms and conditions when you contributed through ActBlue.

        That is not my problem – I do not care.

        Your the one who Cares.

        What I care about is that you have no problem with this. But you will wig out over Sheldon Adelson or the Koch’s, or the NRA – all of which are inconsequential.

        I do not care who gives money to who.

        You are the one who thinks you are entitled to control everything.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 1, 2020 9:12 am

        “This does not end well for democrats. ”

        The generic congressional vote spread has now risen to +9 for the Dems.

        Biden now leads trump by just shy of 10 points in the 538 composite, which is almost the same number as the congressional spread. Its hard to deny that there is a strong preference for democrats right now, well into the protests you believe will save the GOP.

        trump is now 16 underwater in 538 and at his highest disapproval level since 2017.

        Meanwhile you are expected a red wave. You are expecting everything to go trumps way for the next 4 months, the economy, COVID, the police issue.

        I think you are delusional.

        Someone’s hopes are going to be dashed, we will see whose.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 3:02 pm

        “The generic congressional vote spread has now risen to +9 for the Dems.”

        I can provide long analysis, but it does not matter. You will ignore it.

        I am not worried.

        If you want to celebrate now – have fun.
        November is coming. If you think that is going to be good for you – fine.
        But November is coming.

        My guess is that if the election was held TODAY – Trump would win about the same as in 2016. That Republicans would either retake the house or come close. They have dominated the few special elections we have had, and they have done so – not in Trump country, but in bell weather districts that are must wins for democrats in 2020.

        If you think that C19 is favoring Biden – good for you.
        If you think these protests favor Biden – good for you.
        If you think that rising crime favors Biden – good for you.
        If you think the V shaped recovery that is already underway favors Biden – good for you.

        Even Obama thinks Biden needs to stay locked in the basement. That has worked so far, maybe it will work for another 4 months – or not.

        If you think Biden is going to survive debates with Trump – good for you.

        Who knows – maybe you are right.

        but I would not bet on it.

        I think this election is already over. That the pendulum is out as far as it possibly can go for Biden, and even that required massive amounts of luck and massive and dangerous political machinations from the left.

        What do you expect Democrats to do over the next 4 months as the pendulum inevitably swings back ?

        Are you going to stage more riots ?
        Try Impeachment II ?

        The future is unpredicatable – we have seen that this spring.

        But what we can predict all favors Trump.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 3:23 pm

        I have ignored 538 since they blew 2016.

        “Meanwhile you are expected a red wave.?”
        Yes,

        “You are expecting everything to go trumps way for the next 4 months”
        No.
        But all the things that we can predict are already near certain to.

        “the economy”
        Absolutely. The only “economic problem Trump faces is that low skilled workers will see the benefits last.
        Further the economic damage from C19 was more than 3 times greater in Blue states than Red.

        Regardless the economy does not need to recover by Nov.
        All that is necescary is that people need to see the future as brighter than the past or present.
        That is pretty much baked in.

        “COVID”
        The odds of C19 being a negative for Trump in November are small.

        We have already seen C19 burn out in many countries – so we already know that it has a natural limit. You seem to loath calling that herd immunity. It does not matter.
        If we are not close to C19 burning out in the US now – we will be.

        You disagree – fine, then why is it that some states, some countries have had huge numbers of infections and then tappered off to nothing.

        C19 in NY was disasterous. Cuomo’s measures did nothing. But it has tappered down to almost nothing in NY now. Either New York has reached the limits of C19, or it will rush back as restrictions are lifted. Those are the only choices.

        If the former – the same will happen everywhere else in the country and soon.
        If the latter – then the whole world will continue to have massive numbers of infections and deaths.

        What is certainly false – is that something that any country or state has done accomplished anything beyond delay.

        “the police issue.”
        Will ultimately go very badly for Dem’s.
        Trump has a problem with his own base – they wanted him to be stronger.
        But dems are fracturing their party.

        When Biden speaks – he spray’s platitudes, but does not really disagree with Trump.

        It does not matter if there police are actually racist. In demonizing the police, Democrats have made a huge mistake. There is not a good outcome.
        While Biden has tried to stay away from Radical proposals – as things go south, he gets the blame no matter what. This is not a Trump/Biden issue. The entire democratic party has bought in to radically changing policing. That is going to terrify people.

        As noted – gun sales are way up – and large numbers of new gun owners are women.

        Further democrats are stupidly demonizing Gun owners. Most on the left see the video of he couple defending themselves and their home as dangerous right wingers. Most on the right see it was a couple defending their home and their lives against a mob.

        The good news is nothing happened. But A democratic AG is threatening to prosecute the couple – this couple is democratic trial lawyers who have mostly represented poor blacks and even filed police brutality claims. Who do you think they are voting for in Nov ?
        Who do you think everyone worried about crime, and worried about the left taking away their right to defend themselves is voting for ?

        Chaos and anarchy ALWAYS leads to strong men stepping in.

        Trump is being criticized by the right for not being that strong man.
        But there is no chance on the planet that Biden will be the “strong man” in november.

        “Someone’s hopes are going to be dashed, we will see whose.”

  26. July 1, 2020 9:34 am

    Roby, it has become impossible to have a rational discussion with you.

    The article I posted is not an opinion piece ~ it’s a piece of investigative journalism, and you would not even read it because I posted it, and beccause you cannot believe that your precious Democrat Party has become a party increasingly controlled by the radical left.

    (And it’s interesting that you had to go back to 2017 to find a case in which one Democrat was willing to condemn them. Nice googling.)

    I get it. The news media has, for the most part, been MIA on this. And the Republican Party
    has been as well, with the exception of a few. Lifelong Democrats still want to believe that theirs is the Party of JFK, despite overwhelming evidence that it is now the party of AOC.
    Only a few honest journalists have been willing to brave the freakout that occurs everytime they find evidence that the violent and destructive riots that are destroying our cities have been instigated and managed by groups that are using the shell of the Democrat Party to raise money and operate under the protection of a compliant news media.

    Are they also aligning strategically with these groups? Probably, although, that is not quite so clear. Since the traditional, establishment Democrats like Nancy Pelosi, don’t seem to have any sort of agenda, my impression is that they are attempting to hold the a tiger by the tail. That tiger is the violent left, and the establishment Dems believe that, after they wiin in November, they will be able to shut down the young, disaffected communists, both black and white, that have been pumped out of our colleges, believing that America is the cause of all the evil and suffering in the world.

    Listen, I hope that Pelosi, Schumer, Hoyer, Clyburn and the rest can stamp out the far left cancer that is taking over their Party. But, I don’t think that they can or even that they care that much, as long as they can stay in power. When you believe in nothing, you’ll fall for anythng, and they have fallen for the idea that they are in total control of future events.

    AOC and her crowd are snickering.

    • July 1, 2020 10:53 am

      Priscilla, you mention the party of JFK. What we wont find today is anyone in the democrat party that could come anywhere close to JFK. To try to say anyone was 1/2 as good would ge jo better than spitting on his grave.

      And the left will never report anything about why most all of the issues that set off riots and demonstrations are in northern and western democrat run cities, and mostly democrat run states. They will blame Trump and Washington.

      The problems are local. Washington has no involvement in Minneapolis allowing the police union to run the department. Washington has no control on the Minneapolis city council allowing cops with multiple complaints to stay on the job. And the same goes for L.A., NYC, Boston and others.

      The blacks have no leader, so these northern politicians can take advantage of them since they lack any power other than violent demonstrations to make any change. And the riots result in negative change. A community dependent on Colin Kaeperneck and kneeling has no leadership.

  27. July 1, 2020 10:09 am

    On another, related topic: why has no one been arrested for the 2 murders and multiple casualties in the Seattle “autonomous zone” (CHAZ, CHOP, whatever)?

    One of the dead was a 16 year old black boy. A 14 year old was critically injured in the same incident. Earlier a 19 year old was killed.

    First responders were not permitted to help.

    This is what Democrats want??! I doubt it, but Jenny Durkan, Mayor of Seattle has called CHOP “the summer of love” and told the feds to stay away.

    Oh well,, after the second murder in cold blood, she finally ordered the police to clear the area.

    No arrests, though.

    • July 1, 2020 11:03 am

      Like I just commented, another politician taking advantage of them.

      And now LA is proposing to de-arm police and make them some kind of security consultant for first responders.

      What person is going to be dumb enough to respond to a domestic disturbance? That is one of the most dangerous calls a cop can respond to as the person under attack can turn on the cop in a heart beat.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 3:43 pm

        I actually support alot of police reform.

        But there are complexities.

        If the police actually were systemically racist – what the left is doing would still be disasterous – for blacks.

        There are lots of improvements that we need with police.

        But if we destroy police morale in the process – the results will be more violent crime and death.

        Regardless, democrats appear to be committing suicide.

        And Robby thinks November is going to go well ?

      • July 1, 2020 5:27 pm

        Well, I’m with Roby. Trump is the Clinton in this upcoming election. Joe just needs to stay out of the limelight, use campaign ads, dont debate and go on favorable network programs that will throw him softball questions and he will carry the states he needs plus a couple to get elected, and bring a senate with him.

        Remember, where the riots and defunding the police movement exist is in solid blue states. The red states will stay red. And purple is the new blue.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 8:09 pm

        “Well, I’m with Roby. Trump is the Clinton in this upcoming election. ”
        Maybe you will prove correct, but in my view absent some other cataclysmic event not only is Trump locked But the GOP is.

        I keep noting I think it is NY16 and CA25. These are big swings since 2018.

        Everything that is going on is polarizing the electorate – and it is driving the left farther left.
        Though Democrats held on in some races being challenged by serious progressives – they also lost several of them.

        Look arround you at BLM and “the protests” – be sympathetic if you want – the push is hard LEFT for democrats.

        Enthusiasm for Biden is poor.

        Trump has made a number of campaign mistakes recently, he has not found his message yet. But he is back in an “underdog” postition – while I do not think that is correct, that is where he is politically most effective.

        Maybe C19 will not fade – but that is highly unlikely. Maybe there will be a big second wave – also unlikely.

        Maybe an asteroid will strike, maybe the economy will mysteriously tank.

        But if you are going to bet on 2020 based on what is probable rather than the odds of an asteroid strike – Trump wins.

        The odds are C19 will not be an issue by the election.
        The odds are the BLM will not be an issue by the election.
        The odds are increase crime WILL be an issue.
        The debates are going to be an issue.

        The Economy is recovering much faster than expected and we are not even close to fully opened. Employment is coming back faster than expected.
        This is going to be a rising curve until the election.

        Yes the press is being nice to Biden – but not completely nice.
        And Biden can not hunker down until the election.
        It works now, it will not work for the whole next 4 months.

        I do not think most people will be paying attention – but more is coming out about Biden Ukraine. Mire about ObamaGate – and Biden is involved.
        I think Durham/Barr will be conservative about charges – but some people are getting indicted. Regardless more information will out.
        We are told Durham is focused on the period before July 2016 – ANYTHING in that period is really dangerous to the left and good for Trump.

        I would tend to agree that if democrats can get 100% of their voters out they will win.
        But they can’t, and they are increasingly fighting among themselves.

        It is very odd but young adults will protest. They will not vote – that was true in the 60’s too.
        and without them Biden is toast.

        “Remember, where the riots and defunding the police movement exist is in solid blue states. The red states will stay red. And purple is the new blue.”
        Many of these states are not true blue – they are purple. People are going to be voting against their current governor.

        I would also note that two republicans won NYC running on law and order platforms.

        Regardless it is a big deal that the democrats are fighting among themselves.

      • July 1, 2020 7:04 pm

        Ron, I agree that the Biden campaign is using the lockdown very effectively, to keep Joe out of sight and out of mind, and make all of the trouble and chaos in the country Trump’s fault.

        And, right now, Trump is in a lose/lose situation ~ he has already said that he wants the governors to lead their own states out of the covid crisis and re-establish their states’ economies. He clearly thought that there would be more progress on this, based on the belief that even blue state governors would not exploit the economic pain and suffering for political gain. But that’s where he was wrong, and, about the time he was realizing it, the George Floyd riots started, putting him into another lose/lose, if he called out the National Guard to put down riots when blue city mayors made it very clear that they wanted the riots and not the National Guard.

        It’s been a very bad couple of months for him, but I predict that he has figured out that 1) Democrats are planning to use the covid crisis to keep Biden off of the campaign trail and out of sight, and, come September, Biden will not be participating in any live debates, despite his announcement that he will. He is doing WAY better out of sight, out of mind and 2) they have decided to go all in with BLM, and use its misleading name to convince good hearted Americans that it is a civil rights/ anti police brutality organization, rather than a violent Marxist one, dedicated to promoting racial hatred and violence.

        He needs to start running against the lockdowns and against the Marxists and anarchists that are doing the Dems’ work for them. If he can discipline himself not to go off message or be distracted by stupid crap, he can turn this around. You and Roby are correct in saying that, right now, he is the issue, and he’s got to turn that around.

        That said, of course, he may not be able to discipline himself, and he will dig a deeper hole. But, Biden has nothing to run on, can’t string two sentences together and has a lot of political and personal baggage, as well. I just know from my own experience with my Jersey liberal friends, that they want to vote for Biden, but they don’t know if they can vote for a guy in obvious cognitive decline.

        So it could turn out that Trump loses in a landslide, or ends up winning pretty easily. I’m assuming if will be close.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 8:18 pm

        while there is small amounts of vascillation – generally people are tired of C19.

        are we done with infections – no. Are we done making every waking moment about C19 – yes.

        Biden can hunker down, but he can not do it forever, and he flubs softballs.
        Further Biden has the same problem with Sanders/Warren … voters that hillary had.
        Many of them are not voting for biden.

        I think this is also part of what is wrong with Polls right now – they are under estimating Trump voters – party because of methodological errors, but also because there is about 2-4% hidden Trump voters who will not tell a polster how they are voting.
        But I suspect there is a bigger Biden bump – people who say they are voting for Biden, but are not voting.

        Biden has a 30+pt enthusiasm gap with Trump, That is huge. If 1 in 3 of the weak Biden voters does not Vote – Democrats lose – and that is highly likely.

        Further Robby is counting on Trump hatred rather than Biden love.
        That is always a problem in an election. It is easier to use negative adds to depress your opponents votes. They do not work to energize reluctant voters.

        And as C19 fades and the economy heats up – Trump hatred becomes a much weaker force

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 8:22 pm

        I do not beleive the past several months have been as bad for him as they appear.

        Everything that has happened has both long term and short term impacts.

        They have had large short term anti-Trump impacts – some irrationally.

        But I think the long term impacts are pro Trump. That is both of C19 and these protests.

        No one in the streets was voting for Trump before.

        It is the people not in the streets that matter – the samem people who are swayed by Floyd and protestors will shift the other way the more they percieve crime and chaos.

        The press may be biased, but they are not going to pretend everything is honky dory for the next 4 months.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 8:24 pm

        i think it is possible Republicans lose badly. I think it is possible they win strongly.

        I do not think this will be close.

        One reason is that from the start of Trump;s presidency the left has been playing uproar.

        If they do not sustain the anger at Trump all the way to election day – they lose, and they lose big.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 2, 2020 7:48 am

        “He clearly thought that there would be more progress on this, based on the belief that even blue state governors would not exploit the economic pain and suffering for political gain.”

        That is a disgustingly ugly right wing propaganda statement. You can no more back up this statement than you can back up the idea that Antifa is going to get the Dems back into power. You have retreated to a world of complete delusion, the worst part of the partisan GOP bubble. Yes, the complete mishandling of COVID by trump has hurt him and naturally helped the Dem party.

        COVID is reality. It just is. It is going to help one party and hurt another if one party has a sensible take on it and the other does not. Large parts of the GOP party are in full retreat from reality on COVID, led from the beginning by trump. The Tulsa rally was an incredibly and disgracefully stupid thing to hold, utterly unsafe. trump now owns the second wave, which is upon us. That is not someone else’s fault. Hold trump accountable and the like minded people in the GOP accountable is not exploitation. Many people will get COVID in Tulsa who would not have, some will die. All to make trump feel better.

        Actually there are sane politicians and governors and in general people in the GOP who are taking COVID seriously. The delusional incompetence of trump stands in contrast. GOP Governors in places like Florida and Texas made a huge mistake by following the trump line and their citizens are now paying with their health and lives. But even those Governors have managed to recognize reality now and respond. They really have no choice but I will still give them some credit for reentering reality.

        You have lost it completely. Seriously, get help.

      • July 2, 2020 2:17 pm

        roby, this came back as a response to Ron P.. Did I say this ““He clearly thought that there would be more progress on this, based on the belief that even blue state governors would not exploit the economic pain and suffering for political gain.”

        If I did I apologize. I must have had more to drink than I thought.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 2, 2020 6:05 pm

        “That is a disgustingly ugly”
        It is. The question is whether it is true or not.
        Calling it right wing or propaganda does not change whether it is true.
        Why are we to trust the assorted democrats who have been selling the collusion delusion for years ?
        Why are we to trust the democrats who are running the blue states and cities who are rioting, and trying to blame republicans for THEIR clear failures.

        The claim of systemic racism – is rot. But if it is true – it is systemic racism in the deepest blue parts of the country. And yet democrats are trying to blame Trump ? Republicans ?
        We had rioting for similiar reasons with Clinton and Obama.

        It is not hard to beleive that democrats are abdicating responsibility and blaming republicans for their own failures – because they do it all the time.

        Why should we not beleive that the party that said “never let a crisis go to waste” would not exploit a crisis ?

        Yes, that is disgustingly ugly.

        Worse it is not clearly false.

        “You can no more back up this statement”
        Its is plausible. Democrats took political advantage of the financial crisis. Why not this ?
        Blue states are begging for government bailouts.

        “than you can back up the idea that Antifa is going to get the Dems back into power.”
        No one is staying they will the opposite it true. But antifa is trying to get the left into power.
        They are just failing.

        “You have retreated to a world of complete delusion, the worst part of the partisan GOP bubble.”

        We live in a strange world – one in which Alex Jones is more accurate than Anderson Cooper.
        Where the collusion delusion was false,
        but there was a conspiracy going all the way to Biden and Obama to use the power of government to sabotage political opponents

        The FBI and IRS and CIA said NO! when Nixon asked.
        They said YES! to Obama.

        Why should I beleive that democrats would not take political advantage of C19 ?
        Of Race riots ?

        It is not unusual behavior of democrats.

        I have asked you repeatedly for foundational principles. what I get from you is situational ethics. The ends justifies the means.

        Well if the ends justifies the means, all you need to persuade yourself to do heinous things is to believe there will be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

        The left – yourself included has already demonstrated you have no moral compass, No core principles. no integrity. That you think it is OK to call people racists.

        Why should we beleive that exploiting C19 is outside what you are capable of ?

      • dhlii permalink
        July 2, 2020 6:16 pm

        “Yes, the complete mishandling of COVID by trump ”

        Again – what is your evidence ? You demanded proof of Ron’s allegation – where is yours ?

        The US is doing better than most of the world, though frankly there is little evidence that anywhere is doing anything that works.

        What has Trump done that you can prove was wrong ?

        Your the ends justifies the means crowd.

        How is Trump’s outcome different from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, the UK, ?

        And If Trump “mishandled C19” – what of newsome, Whitmer, Cuomo ?

        Texas would have to almost triple the number of cases to match NY, It would have to have almost 20 times the number of deaths to match NY

        The top 8 states in Deaths are Blue. With NY having more than the remaining 7 combined.

        Texas has 50% more people than NY.

        Eliminate all the blue states and the US did far better than the rest of the world.

        So did Trump F’up Blue states ? Did he F’up NY ?
        And somehow get the rest of the country right ?

        Or are you just making more false allegations ?

      • July 2, 2020 6:59 pm

        Dave “How is Trump’s outcome different from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, the UK, ?

        I would like to see people stop comparing the United States to European countries. We can not compare us to them because the European Union does not have the strong centralized federal government like USA.

        All of these countries in Europe are not much bigger than Texas, and some are even smaller. When their leader makes a decision, it is like the Governor of one of our states making a decision. They should be compared to a state, like Germany to Texas or Belgium to Virginia.

        And if and when we ever get a federal government that takes the states rights away without an amended constitution and makes face mask a federal crime, this country will be in for hell, much like Venezuela.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 2, 2020 9:02 pm

        Dave “How is Trump’s outcome different from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, the UK, ?

        “I would like to see people stop comparing the United States to European countries. We can not compare us to them because the European Union does not have the strong centralized federal government like USA.”

        So what ? The government of each country combines the powers of a US state and the US federal govenrment.

        The population of Germany is 83M, France 67M, UK 63M, Italy 67M Spain 43M
        The largest US state CA has a population of 40M. TX 29M FL 22M NY 20M
        Total US population 330M EU 540M

        There is no problem comparing European countries to the US.

        Germany is 3 times the population of TX.

        If anything as individual countries they have STRONGER “central” governments than the US.

        Germany has done well. The rest of Europe – big and small has done worse than the US.

        Further we can compare to the rest of the world too.

        As I said before – there is no government action that correlates to an effective response based on global data.

        C19 does not care about your government or its strength.

        The only factors that have shown statistical significance are
        Latitude
        Demographics
        Diet.

        No government action has had a statistically significant effect.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 2, 2020 6:52 pm

        “COVID is reality. It just is. It is going to help one party and hurt another”

        That is correct, but the long term impact is not likely the same as the short term.

        “one party has a sensible take on it and the other does not.”
        They did ? I saw lots of blue ranting. But I did not see any good blue results.

        Governors have near total control of public health in their states.
        If Democrats were sensible and republicans were not – why was NY practically a holocaust ?

        I do not disagree that democrats have benefited. But not because they knew what they were doing. Nor because they were successfull.

        There will be an economic recovery – it is going to be strong and it is going to be fast.

        Trump will get the credit – whether he is responsible or not.
        Trump is going to be heading into november with incredible economic numbers every month from here out.

        There is nothing you can do about that.

        C19 is going to fade – probably fast. But certainly by the end of summer.
        There is nothing you can do about that.

        BLM and protests will fade slowly, and our view of them will change slowly.

        While the left got away with rioting. looting and arson immediately after Floyd’s death – americans are increasingly upset about this attack on statutes.

        56% of the country wants the confederate statues to remain. They are even more upset about the attacks on Lincoln.

        This is a small thing in reality – but it is proving disasterous for the left politically.
        It is also undermining the moral perception of BLM

        Durham is near certain to start indicting people soon.
        I suspect it will only be a few. But that is happening.
        And you can not stop it.
        We will learn more and more about Obama gate
        and you can not stop it.

        Even left sites like “The Rising” were not fooled by the latest Russia nonsense.
        The country wants out of afghanistan NOW !
        They accept that we are making a deal with the devil and that the Taliban are evil and will do bad things when they return to power.
        And they grasp that this “russian bounties” story – even if true is just a deep state effort to keep us in Afghanistan forever.
        And worse the story appears to be false. Trump was not briefed and the IC does not agree that the story is true, or that it is not deliberate disinformation.

        “Large parts of the GOP party are in full retreat from reality on COVID”

        What is “the reality of Covid” ? You say there are two views – what is the other ?

        What would proveably have worked ?

        How can republicans be delusional, when no one has an answer ?

        “”The Tulsa rally was an incredibly and disgracefully stupid thing to hold, utterly unsafe. trump now owns the second wave, which is upon us. ”
        How so ? There are 395 deaths in the entire state of OK only 7 after the rally. Regardless the time from infection to death is typically atleast 14 days – so there are 0 known deaths from Tulsa yet. If there is a huge death spike in Tulsa next week – maybe.

        But so far – you have nothing.

        Further how is trump’s purportedly small rally killing people – but millions of rioters are not ?

        “That is not someone else’s fault. Hold trump accountable and the like minded people in the GOP accountable is not exploitation”

        We should hold people accountable for what we can actually attribute to them.
        Trump’s rally was in Tulsa – not Tampa, not LA. There is no unique OK pattern. In fact OK C19 is pretty tame.

        OK has 1/5 the population of NY. it has 1/100th the deaths of NY, it has 1/30 the cases of NY.

        Lets hold people accountable – how about the democrats who let this get into nursing homes murdering people.

        If we think large gatherings are dangerous – then Condem Trump – and BLM.

        “Many people will get COVID in Tulsa who would not have, some will die. All to make trump feel better.”

        That would be plausible of OK was unique – btw the OK death rate is going DOWN.
        But CA is spiking

        Highest daily deaths per capita today are
        NJ, RI, AZ, IL, MA, MS, NH, LA, DC, MD

        OK does not make the top ten.
        In fact no state near OK is in the top ten.
        In fact OK is 47th in the per capita deaths.
        and according to Wapo has had a 0% increase in deaths.

        “Actually there are sane politicians and governors and in general people in the GOP who are taking COVID seriously. The delusional incompetence of trump stands in contrast. GOP Governors in places like Florida and Texas made a huge mistake by following the trump line and their citizens are now paying with their health and lives. But even those Governors have managed to recognize reality now and respond.”

        Have you looked at the actual responses ?
        TX is making it harder to get elective surgery to maintain atleast 50% excess hospital capacity. Otherwise they have done nothing.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 2, 2020 10:15 pm

        “roby, this came back as a response to Ron P.. Did I say this ““He clearly thought that there would be more progress on this, based on the belief that even blue state governors would not exploit the economic pain and suffering for political gain.”

        If I did I apologize. I must have had more to drink than I thought.”

        Ron I was replying to Priscilla. I mostly just start a fresh post these days so that you will not accidentally get mixed up when I reply to Dave or Priscilla. In this case I did reply to a thread you started.

      • July 2, 2020 11:06 pm

        Roby, I got messed up with WordPress incompetent programming, so no matter who I respond to and how, I always enter their name at the beginning. Only those general comments have no names. I got tired of people asking me that same question I asked you. It solved the problem.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 1, 2020 3:38 pm

      Another example that this progressive nonsense fails.

      Either our cities are about to turn red, or the last sane people are leaving.

      • July 1, 2020 7:22 pm

        Or, we’re about to go back to the urban wastelands of the 70’s, when the cities were cesspools of crime and filth, and businesses were falling over each other to get out of them.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 1, 2020 8:25 pm

        No matter what violent cities result in red votes.

  28. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 2, 2020 7:30 am

    Dave the fantasy world you normally live in is nothing compared to the full and total retreat from reality you are in now.

    COVID is not fading.

    Like any sane person I wish it were and I wish the economy really was to about to make a huge recovery. The likelihood of the that happening while COVID is doing the absolute opposite of fading is very low. The second wave has started. You have tuned out reality completely.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 2, 2020 5:46 pm

      “COVID is not fading.”

      Robby, I find it hard to believe you have any involvement in science.
      You are completely unable to examine the facts.

      I have addressed this innumerable times.

      If you wish to beleive that everything is going to hell – I can not stop you.
      It is impossible to overcome faith and feelings with facts.

      “Like any sane person I wish it were and I wish the economy really was to about to make a huge recovery. The likelihood of the that happening while COVID is doing the absolute opposite of fading is very low.”

      The economy is recovering PERIOD. It is recovering regardless of what you believe about a 2nd wave. No one is shutting down again. Probably ever for anything. That was a huge mistake.

      “The second wave has started. You have tuned out reality completely.”
      I can explain why you are wrong. But it does not matter.
      The real world does not care about your beliefs.

      You purportedly have advanced degrees in biology – you should be able to look at the data yourself.

      I am tired of explaining the obvious to you.

      You say there is a spike ? Why ?

      People were protesting massively in NY, Illinois, Michigan, Washington State and DC, Massachusets, none of those states are showing spikes or 2nd waves.

      But the average age of “new cases’ is 20. There is no spike in hospitalizations, there is no spike in deaths.

      While there is an obvious explanation. even if you do not accept that, WHY are some states spiking and others not ? Why are the states that were hardest hit NOT spiking ?

      The obvious answer is the virus can only find few people that can still be infected.

      But if you do not like that answer – figure out another – one actually consistent with the facts.
      I can think of several.

      But there is no explanation except “magic” in which the states that were hard hit has steadily declining, while those that were not are rising.

      If a 2nd wave were possible – why not in NYC right now ? Why not in Italy ? Spain ?

      Do you think the virus has mutated and all spring it attack Blue states and now in the summer it is targeting red ones ?

      You claim to have a STEM education – you should be able to find obvious patterns in data.
      But in the event you have not, if you look hard enough, there are others who can explain this to you.

  29. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 2, 2020 8:07 am

    As to your idea that people want a strong man, that may be true to some extent for some people. But the nation as a whole does not want a Strongman, that is something different.

    The Tulsa rally was not not strong leadership, it was an irresponsible and insane action by a delusional out of control narcissist. A majority of Americans can tell that and that is not what they want. trump is not Churchill, he is not the man who has sized up a problem correctly and responded with clarity. He is a man who has made the problem worse at every stage. A strong man who can lead in America today is not some kind of demagogic lunatic.

    Now, in your world COVID is fading, and many republicans share that opinion, so perhaps in your world and theirs the Tulsa rally was a good and safe and sensible and proper thing to do and its health consequences are just the overactive left wing nut imagination of people like me. History is not going to be kind to that idea.

    No Priscilla, I am not exploiting COVID for political gain by saying this. I am describing reality.

    • July 2, 2020 2:13 pm

      Roby, I am going to respond to this also.

      Yes, Tulsa was stupid. If he does not want to be seen with a mask, then he should stay in the white house and make presentations in the press room were social distancing can take place.

      To add, this is not a political virus, even though some try to make it one were wearing a masks makes you a liberal and not wearing one makes you a conservative. I have been out every day since N.C. Gov Cooper made his “pretty please, be good boys and girls, wear a mask” mandate (no enforcement teeth in mandate) and most everyone wearing a mask is white, mosts blacks and hispanics are not in the stores I went to. So wearing a masks is not political! All of our blacks and hispanics are not conservatives.

      Last, it is also not a democrat or republican action problem. Florida, led by a republican left the state much more open, but insured those most at risk were protected. California, led by a democrat, closed the state up tighter than Dicks hat ban. Both states now have the highest number of new cases and closing again is not going to be an answer. Many who supported that to begin with will not in the future.

      And then you have the dim wit New Jersey governor that is trying to reclose and just screwed over hundreds of restaurant owners saying they could reopen, they restock food and two days later he closes them again because bars are over crowded. So they agreed to limit seating as the law required, but he still closes them. If they were not bankrupt to begin with, buying food to restock restaurants might put them over the edge when they cant sell it. And fresh meat and veggies don’t last.

      As for mask, that needs to be a local issue with enforcement teeth. Up to $1000 fine for first offense. Goes up each time after. They are doing that in Boone N.C. But it can not be a national mandate like Biden wants to do because many states do not need it. many counties within states do not need it. Even in California, I suspect there are many counties with few cases. Its a local issue that local leaders need to take by the B—s and enforce!

      • dhlii permalink
        July 2, 2020 7:37 pm

        “Yes, Tulsa was stupid. If he does not want to be seen with a mask, then he should stay in the white house and make presentations in the press room were social distancing can take place.”

        Why ? Do you think anyone who has not been tested is allowed within 6ft of Trump ?

        If you are Robby and Jay shouldn;t you want Trump to get C19 ?

        Contra Robby, there is no evidence of a Tulsa specific spike.
        There has been a rise in the number of new cases through many parts of the country,
        correlating to two things – a factor of 6 increase in testing and more people – particularly young people returning to normal lives.

        But who cares if there are more cases – whether it is behaviorial or an artifact of testing, if it is not increasing deaths and hospitalizations.

        And it is not.

        If Trump’s rally was dangerous – then the BLM protests were far worse.
        But we are not seeing actual evidence that either had any effect.

      • July 2, 2020 9:02 pm

        Tulsa stupid because.
        1. Moderate/independent voters
        2. Any increase in cases in Tulsa area within 14-18 days will be blamed on Trump rally.
        3. Can no longer blame riots and demonstrations for any spread in other areas.

        The only way Biden loses is if he dies before election.
        Trump does not need to energize his base.
        He need swing voters.
        He is alienating swing, suburban voters. Watch his approval numbers. He stays out of public view, his approval numbers begin to rise. He comes out in public, opens his mouth, his approval numbers decline to previous low number. Happens every time he is out of contact other than twitter.

        Just keep Biden locked up. Blame the pandemic. Dont debate. Use t.v. campaign ads. The moderate independent voter that does not like Trump will accept Biden staying out of public due to pandemic.

        Now all this changes if the pandemic is gone by October. You say it is fading. I doubt it. We will see in October.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 2, 2020 11:57 pm

        “Tulsa stupid because.
        1. Moderate/independent voters”
        Will not remember in a few weeks when Covid goes away.

        “2. Any increase in cases in Tulsa area within 14-18 days will be blamed on Trump rally.”
        Death’s and hostpitalizations are down.

        “3. Can no longer blame riots and demonstrations for any spread in other areas.”
        There is no appreciable riot effect either.

        The only way rioters impact C19 is pointing out the hypocracy of the left.

        “The only way Biden loses is if he dies before election.”
        Or few on the far left or center show up to vote.
        Biden has something like a 30pt enthusiasm gap.
        You can pretty much count on 80% of Trump supporters voting.
        You can’t count on 50% of Biden supporters.

        The entire Democratic bet is on the ANTI-trump vote.
        We already know that many of the bernie bros are sitting this out.

        Of those who were out protesting – only a tiny portion of them are voting.

        “Trump does not need to energize his base.”
        Actually he does – there is alot of anger among many republicans.
        Right now Tucker Carlson could beat Trump.
        Carlson is beating up the GOP for kowtowing to the mob.
        And his ratings are skyrocketting.

        The most successful thing democrats have done with this Floyd mess, is get republicans politicians to not defend their base.

        “He need swing voters.”
        To stay home.

        “He is alienating swing, suburban voters. Watch his approval numbers.”
        His approval numbers are identical to Obama’s at this time.

        “He stays out of public view, his approval numbers begin to rise. He comes out in public, opens his mouth, his approval numbers decline to previous low number. Happens every time he is out of contact other than twitter.”

        Tulsa was not a slam dunk for him – but it was a good start.
        Expect to see more – alot more. It is what Trump does, and it works.

        “Just keep Biden locked up. Blame the pandemic.”
        Only works for a while.
        Only works when Trump is NOT out campaigning.

        The more Trump does in public the weaker Biden looks.

        “Dont debate.”
        That would be wise for Biden – but he already agreed to 3 debates.
        The odds of Biden surviving a Debate with Trump are nil.

        “Use t.v. campaign ads.”
        Who watches them ?
        Who watches TV ?

        In every media that i get hit with a political add today – I change channels or shut it down.

        “The moderate independent voter that does not like Trump will accept Biden staying out of public due to pandemic.”

        The pandemic is nearly over.

        Regardless so long as Trump is out and campaigning the pressure on Biden will rise.

        “Now all this changes if the pandemic is gone by October.”
        By early august. Look at other countries.

        If it was just starting in TX and FL it would be over by early Sept.
        According to Wapo US deaths peaked mid april.
        We have had a very long tail, deaths are 1/4 of the peak.

        There are only two possibilities
        this is nearly burned out and the lockdowns are slowing the burnout.
        This is not even close to over and the lockdowns are dramatically slowing the spread.

        The later is not consistent with the fact that NY appears to be done, that spain and italy are near done.

        We will get brief increases in cases – because our rate of testing is 6 times higher, and because there will be small increases as we come out of lockdown.

        Mostly it appears we are seeing much more of the former than the latter.

        We are seeing increases in places where we have higher testing.
        In a few places we have seen VERY small increases in hospitalizations.
        Deaths continue to drop slowly.

        This is over. Most people either know that – or they do not care because they have learned that nearly all the deaths are old people. That is bad and we should have done better.

        But people are not going to lock themselves up for another month to accomplish nothing.
        Their not old. They are going to stay away from those who are, and they are going back to normal.

        And that is incredibly bad news for Democrats.

        I am not only predicting a Trump victory – I am predicting large republican gains in the areas Democrats have failed.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 2, 2020 8:45 pm

        As for masks – and everything else.

        It needs to be a personal choice – and should have been from the start.

        I have no problem with stores requiring masks.
        I have no problem with stores taking peoples temps and turning them away if they have a fever or symptoms.

        I have no problem with government quarantining people who are actually sick.
        I have no problem with govenrment fining people who are out in public with symptoms.

        Those are all legitimate.

        I think it is wise for people to wear masks when they are near others.

        Btu even there – the risks are different for different people.

        I am in a higher risk group. I wear a mask when I am around people who I am not with every day.

        My daughter is 23, If she gets this – it will not be nearly as bad as the flue and 1:5 as likely to kill her.
        It is reasonable for her to make radically different choices than I.
        This is significantly less dangerous to her than the Flu.

      • July 2, 2020 9:13 pm

        Dave “I am in a higher risk group. I wear a mask when I am around people who I am not with every day.”

        Thank you, you are protecting others should you have it and be asymptomatic.

        But please be careful. You are not protected from a maskless person who is asymptomatic and you come in contact with them.

        They are still trying to figure out why the increase is happening in warm states and trying to decide if air conditioning is playing a role spreading the virus. Wearing a mask does not protect you from that either. Surgeons do not wear mask to not get infected by patients, they wear a mask to not infect patients with any germ they may have.

        So when you see someone without a mask, consider them positive and avoid at all possible any contact regardless of 6ft. If your high risk, everyone is a risk if not wearing a mask.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 3, 2020 12:27 am

        “Thank you, you are protecting others should you have it and be asymptomatic.”
        I do not have it.
        We are nearly certain that asymptomatic people wither can;t spread it or can not spread it easily.
        One has to be careful with C19 – lots of excellent generalizations are NOT absolutely true.

        But we should rarely make decisions based on the exception rather than the norm.

        I wear a mask in public to

        Protect myself. I would not if I was 10 years younger. If I get C19 it will be 5 times as bad as if I was 10 years younger.

        Protect my wife. She recently had a bout with cancer. It was minor, and the prognosis is excellent, but she is still recovering from minor surgery – at 60, what took days to recover at 40 takes weeks.

        “But please be careful.”
        I make my own choices.
        You make yours.
        my daughter makes hers.

        “You are not protected from a maskless person who is asymptomatic and you come in contact with them.”
        Perfectly – no.

        We know as an example that even the best PPE will not protect you if you are around highly infectuous patients for many hours at a time.

        At the same time we know that if you are within 6ft of an infected person for 10m I beleive you have about a 10% chance of infection.

        And again asymptomatic people are poor transmitters.

        I am taking far more care to distance myself from others than to wear a mask.
        I wear the mask WHEN I am close to someone else for a protracted period.

        When I have to sit down and talk to someone. When I am in a checkout line.
        I take the mask off when there is no one arround. Most everyone does.

        “They are still trying to figure out why the increase is happening in warm states and trying to decide if air conditioning is playing a role spreading the virus.”
        No they are not.
        There are several factors and they know them.
        1) a six fold increase in testing.
        2). more young people are going out – even in crowds, without protection.

        The average age of new infections is 22. That implicates BOTH 1 + 2.
        We are testing more people that are asymptomatic – we are not finding the people we were not finding before.

        We have known for a long time that the actual cases are 10-20 times higher than reported.

        Increased testing means even though C19 is burning out – we are identifying a larger percent of new infections than before.

        “Wearing a mask does not protect you from that either. Surgeons do not wear mask to not get infected by patients, they wear a mask to not infect patients with any germ they may have.”
        Do we have to go through the mask nonsense.
        Masks are more effective in reducing spread from an infected person.
        But they still work BOTH ways.

        Surgeons are different – they are working over people they have cut open.
        They do not want to introduce even a few germs to the inside of a persons body.
        The most important protection humans have from disease is our SKIN.
        Even C19 does not penetrate Skin. To get it, you have to get it into your eyes, your nose, your mouth.

        “So when you see someone without a mask, consider them positive and avoid at all possible any contact regardless of 6ft. If your high risk, everyone is a risk if not wearing a mask.”

        Ron – I have been here the past several months. I am as well informed as you.

        I considered ANYONE that I am not arround regularly a threat. I keep my distance with EVERYONE.

        I am also dosing up on Vitamin D and trying to spend time in the sun.

        I am not “high risk” – I am moderate risk. I am 62 and I have mild asthma and reduced lung capacity because I had a right lower lobectomy on my Lungs in my 20’s because of a congenital problem with that lobe of my lungs.

        I have been religious about respiratory infections for decades.
        Even if I just get a mild case of C19 – I will likely get follow on bacterial and other infections.

        I religiously get the flu vaccine. If I catch the flu – it is always much worse than most people.
        Even though the Flu usually passes in 7 days, I have picked something else up in the mean time.

        I do not need C19 to kill me to have a really bad experience. If I get it I could be laid up for 2 months with one respiratory infection following another.

        I am careful about the flu – why would I be incautious abotu something 5 times worse for the average person my age ?

        At the same time if My daughter gets it – the worse problem is that she might infect her parents or her boyfreind (he has health problems)

        We all live in the same house, but we eat at opposite ends of the table, and we socialize from a distance – as my daughter goes to target to work every day.

        She wears a mask 100% of the time at work and engages in excessive hygene – not because she is a risk to herself, but because she is near certain regularly exposed, and does not want to bring in home.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 2, 2020 8:51 pm

        “As for mask, that needs to be a local issue with enforcement teeth. Up to $1000 fine for first offense. Goes up each time after. They are doing that in Boone N.C. But it can not be a national mandate like Biden wants to do because many states do not need it. many counties within states do not need it. Even in California, I suspect there are many counties with few cases. Its a local issue that local leaders need to take by the B—s and enforce!”

        So the next black man killed by police is going to be because he refused to wear a mask ?

        If you make law as you note, you must enforce it. Enforce means men with guns. It ultimately means killing people.

        Look at the video of Rayshard Brooks.

        You can talk about “descaliting” and all kinds of things the officers MIGHT have done differently. But nearly all fall into NOT enforcing the law.
        Nothing is different when it is masks.

        When you say enforce mask laws – does that mean the cops should chase someone down ?

        What if they resist ?

        The tiniest law will end up with people dead if they refuse to comply.

      • July 2, 2020 9:15 pm

        How are seat belt laws enforced? And that only protects the person, not anyone else in the car with them.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 3, 2020 12:29 am

        “How are seat belt laws enforced? And that only protects the person, not anyone else in the car with them.”

        They aren’t. In my state the police can not pull you over for a seat belt violation, and can not cite you unless you admit not wearing a seat belt.

      • July 3, 2020 3:36 pm

        Well in N.C. they can. So we get a $75.00 fine for not protecting ourselves, but we can run all over town with C-19 without a mask and possibly harm everyone we come in contact with.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 3, 2020 4:00 pm

        If you have symptoms or have been exposed to someone with C19 – you should be tested, and if you test positive you should be quarantined.

        Regardless is you have symptoms, you should self quarantine.

        Those are real obligations. If you have reason to know that you are a danger to others – then you have a duty to protect others.

        If you do not have symptoms – wearing a mask is about protecting yourself from others, that is a choice you get to make for yourself.

        I would absolutely provide services – financial support, food and other delivery for those who are infected.
        I would also quarantine them, and I would punish them – including jailing them if they refused quarantine.

        Masks fall entirely into the domain of choice – if you are not infected – masked or not you are no risk to others.

        The evidence of asymptomic infection is very poor.
        If you have C19 but do not know it because you have very weak or no symptoms, it appears that someone must be in your presence for hours to get infected.

        Regardless, we can not impose a duty on people at random.

        The duty to protect others from yourself requires that you either know you are a danger, or have reason to know.

        I would highly encourage people to wear masks when they are going to be in close proximity to others.

        But i have no right to do so by force.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 3, 2020 4:05 pm

        I have not seen the entire video – only clips. But an elderly gentleman is being prosecuted for agrevated assault against another elderly gentleman for refusing to allow him onto a small elevator with him.

        Absent something more forceful in the actual video than the clips – I see nothing wrong with this persons conduct.

        He stood at the door of the elevator held his arm out bent at the elbow and used it like a car bumper to push others trying to get into the elevator with him back from the door.

        The elevator was very small. And I suspect current rules would have limited it to a single occupant.

        Legitimately barring others access is not assault.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 2, 2020 6:54 pm

      “As to your idea that people want a strong man, that may be true to some extent for some people. But the nation as a whole does not want a Strongman, that is something different.”
      It is not an idea. It is a historical pattern. The higher the levels of chaos in a country the more willing people are to tolerate even demand a authoritarian leader.
      This is how Musollini and hitler and stalin and mao gained power.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 2, 2020 7:32 pm

      “The Tulsa rally was not not strong leadership, it was an irresponsible and insane action by a delusional out of control narcissist. A majority of Americans can tell that and that is not what they want. trump is not Churchill, he is not the man who has sized up a problem correctly and responded with clarity. He is a man who has made the problem worse at every stage. A strong man who can lead in America today is not some kind of demagogic lunatic.”

      Robby – no one cares what you say.

      Is Trump a “strong leader” – he is not Churchill or FDR. He is certainly a stronger leader than Carter or Obama.
      And Biden compared to Biden, Trump is a very strong leader.

      Regardless, you keep nit picking.
      No one expects that Tulsa will impact left wing nuts positively.

      Trump got fewer than expected live on site participants – but he got 12.5M viewers.
      Is anyone paying any attention to Basement Bunker Biden ?

      “Now, in your world COVID is fading”
      No in the real world.
      Wapo has nationwide Deaths declining
      They had one recent spike and that was due to NJ dumping 1800 previously unreported deaths.

      While C19 is ACTUALLY fading – as it has everywhere eventually.
      More importantly it is fading from our concern.

      The majority of people are returning to their normal lives.
      We are each making slightly different accomodations.
      Some of us are taking baby steps, some are jumping in to the pool in the deep end.

      And that is not unreasonable. If you are under 30 – C19 is about 500% LESS serious than the flu. If you are between 55 and 65 it is about 500% MORE serious.

      Each of us has different risk levels. If you are young and healthy – you should be doing whatever you want. In fact you NEVER should have been restricted.

      Regardless, whether you like it or not people are choosing to go on with their lives.
      Many are choosing to ignore even the minimal dictats of their states.

      And short a spike in deaths – which has not happened, they are not going back.

      Maybe there is a blue/red pattern to this – maybe not – it does not matter.

      People are fed up with the C19 nonsense and they are returning to their lives.
      And you can not stop them.

      “Tulsa rally”
      Thus far the real world data – not your feelings. Shows no changes as a result of rallies or protests. The death rate is low and declining. the hospitalization rate is low.
      New cases are in younger people and are asymptomatic, and most likely an artifact of 6 times greater testing. There is probably a small increase in cases – do to younger people going out more, but that is not causing a problem.

      “was a good and safe and sensible and proper thing to do and its health consequences are just the overactive left wing nut imagination of people like me. History is not going to be kind to that idea.”

      History is already being written by real world data – and it is not kind to you.

      “No Priscilla, I am not exploiting COVID for political gain by saying this.”
      I have no idea if what you are saying is politically motivated – but it is wrong.

      “I am describing reality.”
      Nope.

  30. dhlii permalink
    July 2, 2020 9:21 pm

    Lots of data on rising violence.

    Though i noted another point.

    You can get fired for tweeting “all lives matter”

    But threaten to murder cops, extradite Trump to Iran, or any of myriads of forms of left wing hate speech and …. nothing.

    All this left wing nut snowflake nonsense is incredibly lopsided.

    Kids who need a safe space with a companion rabbit to endure the fact that Heather MacDonald is speaking on their campus, have no problem screaching the most violent and loathsome epitaphs at those they disagree with

    If it were not for hypocracy the left would have no values at all.

    https://www.city-journal.org/ferguson-effect-inner-cities

  31. dhlii permalink
    July 2, 2020 9:36 pm

  32. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 2, 2020 10:11 pm

    The tulsa rally was idiotic for many reasons. The largest is that it will get innocent people sick or dead who did not go to the rally but encountered some infected person who got their infection there. Yes, COVID is going up sharply in Tulsa since the rally (and was going up prior to it too). This from David Frum:

    “A Washington Post report on June 27 captures Trump’s culpability with horrible aptness. The city of Tulsa, Oklahoma, has been enforcing social-distancing rules, and for good reason. From June 1 to June 15, new COVID-19 cases in the state jumped from 67 in a day to 186. In advance of Trump’s rally in Tulsa on June 20, city employees affixed do not sit here please stickers to every other seat in the stadium venue. Trump campaign workers were captured on video removing the stickers so that Trump could cram attendees closer together. On June 26, Oklahoma reported 396 new infections in a single day.

    Trump’s rally may not directly account for all those new cases. But Trump’s elevation of the needs of his own ego over the well-being of even his strongest supporters is profoundly implicated in the virus’s powerful June comeback.”

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/this-is-trumps-plague-now/613633/

    • dhlii permalink
      July 3, 2020 12:38 am

      “The tulsa rally was idiotic for many reasons.”
      Mistly because you say so.

      “The largest is that it will get innocent people sick or dead who did not go to the rally but encountered some infected person who got their infection there. Yes, COVID is going up sharply in Tulsa since the rally (and was going up prior to it too).”
      There is no increase in deaths or hospitalizations.
      There is no unique increase in OK compared to the increases in other states where C19 did not burn out yet. OK still has a tiny fraction of the deaths per capita or infections per capita of the rest of the country.

      “This from David Frum:”
      David Frum – the epidemiologist ? The Doctor ? No that would be David Frum the never Trumper.

      “Trump’s rally may not directly account for all those new cases. But Trump’s elevation of the needs of his own ego over the well-being of even his strongest supporters is profoundly implicated in the virus’s powerful June comeback.”

      https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/this-is-trumps-plague-now/613633/

      So a few thousand Trump voters gather politically – and you wig out and call Trump a murderer.

      But millions riot and protest – and that is OK with you.

      Sorry Robby – your hypocrisy is showing.

      If Trump has done something bad in Tulsa – then BLM is Hitler.

      There have been no significant increases in most of the places where there were riots – because in most of those places C19 is nearly burned out and even higher testing rates is not going to show much in new cases.

      In states like OK where population densities are lower and C19 spreads more slowly and takes longer to burn out higher testing rates will show more cases.

      Oh My 389 cases in OK, NJ added 1800 DEATHS in one day – Trump wasn’t anywhere near.

  33. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 2, 2020 10:22 pm

    Ron, I most likely miss many of your comments addressed to me. They get buried in Dave’s anal hemorrhage of denialist graffiti on every sentence I write. Which I just skim if I even bother to read his stuff at all, but your posts get buried as well.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 3, 2020 1:05 am

      Sorry Robby, but if there were not so many false and fallacious statements in every one of your posts it would not take so many words to disprove them.

      So far I have made one mistake on C19 – I predicted that we would be able to stop it at our borders. But we now know it was in CA in early Jan (and probably much early), and in NY before Trump banned travel from China.

      Other than that I have been pretty accurate.

      We will see more cases as we open up.
      We will see more cases as we test more.

      Btu we are seeing very small increases in hospitalizations in some places,
      and no increases in deaths.

      You claim to have an advanced Stem degree. Do the math.

      In Mid April we peaked at about 40K new cases/day.
      But we know the actual new cases was 10-20 times greater – so 400K to 800K/day.
      nearly all mild or asymptomatic.

      Today we have 41K new cases – but we are doing 6 times as much testing So the actual number of new cases per day is between 68K and 132K
      Or 1/5 that of the april Peak.

      How can you tell this is correct ? The proportion of cases they are getting now is far more asymptomatic.

      Hospitalization rates have ticked up SLIGHTLY in a FEW places.
      That is a consequence of a SMALL increase as we release from lockdown in places that are farther from herd immunity.

      Your a smart person Robby – you know that there is only one permanent way to end an epidemic – herd immunity. That can be acheived by infections or by a vaccine.

      So long as there is one infected person and enough people who are not immune – the epidemic will continue.

      Lockdowns MIGHT slow it. Social distancing MIGHT slow it. But nothing stops it until the few who are infected can not get to anyone they can infect.

      There is no credible health expert who claimed otherwise.

      Even hospital grade PPE used religiously will not prevent medical staff from getting infected – if they are involved in treating infectuous patients long enough.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 3, 2020 1:07 am

      “Which I just skim if I even bother to read his stuff at all”
      If I only allow information from inside my bubble I will never have to face the self contradictions within.

  34. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 2, 2020 10:32 pm

    Dave, you really do not know how to argue effectively. So much effort, so little of value. You mostly make laughably bad arguments that persuade no one. You dispute nearly every molecule I write, but your stuff is so ridiculous 90+ percent of the time that if you actually say anything sensible while in argument mode, it gets lost in the pile of your low value crap.

    You and trump believe that DOVID is fading in spite of a mountain of evidence that it is accelerating again. Me saying it isn’t fading, which is clearly an accurate statement, we just had the highest number of news cases ever in a single day, gets a fact free mocking of my science doctorate as your response. Its not as clever as you seem to believe. Noisy hyperactive denialism and delusional nonsense, your life’s work. Silly man.

    Write many fewer but much better conceived words if you want to persuade anyone.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 3, 2020 1:32 am

      Robby.

      A long critique of how I argue by someone who so rarely makes an actual argument, much less a valid one, is laughable.

      I am not interested in advice on posting, arguing, writing by someone who bought and sold the collusion delusion.

      You are correct – I will never persuade you.
      It is impossible to persuade people who operate on faith and feelings, rather than facts logic reason.

      “You dispute nearly every molecule I write”
      Because it is so factually and logically poor.

      You and trump believe that COVID is fading in spite of a mountain of evidence that it is accelerating again.”
      But it is not – and it is obvious that it is not. And someone who earned the degree you claim to have would know that.

      You claim that neither you nor democrats are seeking to make political hay out of C19.

      But it is clear you are. If you do 6 times as much testing on something that you know you WERE missing 90-95% of the cases – are you surprised to see a rise.

      There is a real SMALL increase recently – the natural result of opening up.

      We are far enough from the start of the increase that we should be seeing a dramatic increase in hospitalizations if there really was a Tsunami of new infections.
      We are only seeing SMALL increases in hispitalizations in some places.
      We are barely far enough to start seeing deaths increase. They are not.

      The most reasonable explanation is what I gave – better testing combined with a small increase to be expected from reopening.

      Other possible explanations:

      The virus has mutated and it is far less harmful – we would know that if it were true.

      Much improved treatment – that Might explain no increase in deaths, but it does not increase the very small increase in hospitalizations.

      We do have better in hospital treatments. We do not have better treatments to prevent hospitalization – unless you have ceded that HCQ works.

      Put simply – you are clearly trying to use bogus information to cause hysteria.

      It is not working. Minor adjustments have been made to protect hospitial capacity and aside from that the states you claim are spiking – are continuing to reopen.

      I would also note that the largest spike in the country by far was in CA – not TX, not OK.

      CA has had C19 longer than any state. It has been locked down longer than anywhere.
      Trump has not been anywhere near CA.

      Why is CA spiking ? Why have new cases in CA nearly doubled ?

      You say Republicans are in denial – please explain CA ?

      Theory A – increased testing
      explains ALL the rise in new cases.

      Theiry B – It is all Trump’s fault, or Red states reopened too soon
      Does not explain the dramatic rise in CA.

      You say my arguments are bogus.

      A hypothesis that does not explain the results is falsified – you should recall that from HS science.

      “Me saying it isn’t fading, which is clearly an accurate statement,”
      Because you say so ?
      “we just had the highest number of news cases ever in a single day,”
      with 6 times as much testing on a disease that is missed 90-95% of the time.

      MATH – that means the actual number of new cases is 1/5 the peak.

      This is barely 5th grade math.

      “gets a fact free mocking of my science doctorate as your response.”
      Please return it wherever you got it. As well as your HS degree.

      “Its not as clever as you seem to believe. Noisy hyperactive denialism and delusional nonsense, your life’s work. Silly man.”
      A strong of insults is not an argument.

      “Write many fewer but much better conceived words if you want to persuade anyone.”

      Sieg Heil!

    • dhlii permalink
      July 3, 2020 2:11 am

      Robby,

      Will you agree that if there is a real increase in C19, if we have ACTUALLY returned to higher levels than the peak over 2 months ago, that WILL result in a return to the same level of hospitalizations – within 4-10 days from the start of the increase ? And a return to the same level of deaths within 14 days of the start of the increase ?

      Or the virus has mutated and become less deadly ?

      If you have another explanation that is consistent with the data, please provide it.

      You are sensitive when I expect that someone with a STEM degree can understand math.

      Either find an error in my logic or math, or find an alternative explanation that better fits the facts.

      To be clear – I beleive there has been an increase in infections.

      I do not beleive the current 40K+/day number is correct – I beleive the real number is closer to 70-80K/day – maybe higher.

      But the number in mid April was not correct at 40K/day either – it was closer to 400K-800K/day.

      We have had a massive and well known problem from the start in Wuhan.

      We have known we are undercounting actual cases by a large margin.
      And atleast in the US we are overcounting deaths – probably by a factor of 2.
      Or more accurately we are not counting C19 deaths using the same criteria we use for the Flu or other diseases.

      One of the reasons that western countries have tended to see such long tails – an epidemic should follow a logistical curve and that is not what we are seeing.
      Is because testing has improved by and order of magnitude over time.

      More positive tests with higher rates of testing does NOT mean more actual cases.

      You only need 5th grade math to work that out.

      The govenors in most of the states with increases are not panicing, they are not reversing course.

      Either they understand 5th grade math – or more likely they have an advisor they trust who does, Or they are making the most catastrophic political blunder EVER.

      I will agree with you on one thing:

      If we are REALLY seeing a 2nd wave, if we suddenly jump to 250K deaths,
      no republican will get elected dog catcher.

      That part of your analysis is correct.

      In fact on many of the claims you make – if your assertions are all true – your predictions are correct – but your assertions are not – and there is enough evidence to know that.

      There is no C19 second wave.

      People do not like to see statues being torn down.

      We are seeing a growing increase in violent crime – and the victims will be black.

      People are sympathetic to blacks and to BLM as a concept. They are turned off by the BLM organization agenda.

      Somehow a civil war analogy seems appropriate.

      This moment is Gettysburg – and the Democrats are still on the losing side.
      This moment is the high water mark. Pickets charge has ended.
      Democrats did not breach at Cemetery ridge.

      You and I can fight over C19. but soon enough there will be no hiding from facts.
      One of us is eating crow. Hospitalizations and death rates will rise proportionate to the increase in cases – and I will be wrong. Or they will not – and you will be.

      Increased violent crime will swing the pendulum from the police as evil to the police as critical. That will have political consequences.
      Many republicans – including Trump are behind the curve on that. But democrats are so far on the wrong side it is not funny.

      A spike in violent crime will discredit the entire democratic agenda.
      If defund the police is insantiy – why is M4A sane ? Free college ?
      Why is anything that democrats propose ?

      If the economy does not recover – Trump will lose in a landslide. We agree on that.
      If it does he will win in a landslide – I would hope you grasp that.
      And it is already self evident the economy is coming back.

      The media, Democrats and the deep state have bet once again on Russia nonsense – now with the bounty garbage,

      Even the leftists of the rising got that the purpose of this – besides wounding Trump was to keep us in Afghanistan.
      Even if the story is entirely true – which it is obviously not, most of us do not want stupidity from Russia, to derail getting out of Afghanistan. US deaths in Afghanistan since the February deal have been incredibly low.

      There will be more bad news for the collusion delusion before the election.

      Biden has agreed to 3 debates with Trump. If they happen Biden will do badly.
      If they do not Biden will do badly.

      Trump will be out campaigning in public for the next 4 months.
      if Biden does not come out of his bunker – you will need Trump to catch C19 and die, or Biden will look like a coward.

      Absent a plaugue of bloody froggs raining from the sky – the election is over.
      You just have not figured it out.

    • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
      July 3, 2020 8:09 am

      Like I said. You could save yourself a lot of time but simply posting: “I, Dave, am a delusional nut living in my own alternate reality.”

      How many of your words do you think I bothered reading? If you guessed more than ten you are as narciss as your hero trump.

      If you want to be heard by someone, go downtown with a sign like one of those street preachers with some literature and stand on a corner and do your thing.

      Outta here, will catch up with you sometime before November. If trump should happen to lose I will be amused to see your song and dance of denial.

      I wonder what the COVID death toll will be by that date and how you will manage to deny it.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 3, 2020 2:13 pm

        “Like I said. You could save yourself a lot of time but simply posting: “I, Dave, am a delusional nut living in my own alternate reality.””
        When you can not argue the facts or logic – insult your opponent.

        “How many of your words do you think I bothered reading?”
        Why do I care ?

        “If you guessed more than ten you are as narciss as your hero trump.”
        Read, what you are writing. You seem to think That I am obligated to write for you ?
        And you think I am the narcisist ?

        “If you want to be heard by someone, go downtown with a sign like one of those street preachers with some literature and stand on a corner and do your thing.”
        Did I ask for your advice ?

        “Outta here, will catch up with you sometime before November. If trump should happen to lose I will be amused to see your song and dance of denial.”
        And when he does not ?

        Have you learned anything from the “collusion delusion” ?

        Robby, we see repeatedly – when reality conflicts with your world view – you bend reality.

        “I wonder what the COVID death toll will be by that date and how you will manage to deny it.”

        Why does that matter ? 2.8M people die in the US every year. We do not burn the economy to the ground over that.

        I will be happy to discus with you effective means to reduce C19 deaths that
        Actually work.
        Do not do more harm than good.

        That should be trivial for us to agree on.

        But apparently it is not.

  35. dhlii permalink
    July 3, 2020 2:17 am

  36. dhlii permalink
    July 3, 2020 2:20 am

  37. dhlii permalink
    July 3, 2020 2:22 am

  38. dhlii permalink
    July 3, 2020 2:25 am

  39. dhlii permalink
    July 3, 2020 2:26 am

  40. dhlii permalink
    July 3, 2020 2:34 am

  41. dhlii permalink
    July 3, 2020 2:35 am

  42. July 3, 2020 10:51 am

    So, I had to catch up on all of the comments from the past couple of days:

    “Tulsa stupid because.
    1. Moderate/independent voters
    2. Any increase in cases in Tulsa area within 14-18 days will be blamed on Trump rally.
    3. Can no longer blame riots and demonstrations for any spread in other areas.”

    ~ Agreed.
    I think that the Trump campaign has vastly underestimated the panic and fear that exists in the country.. Even now, as the reopening and expanded testing has contributed to more people becoming infected (Didn’t we know this would happen? Wasn’t the lockdown meant to “slow the spread” and keep the death rate down? Of course it was, but the narrative changed), the death rate continues to plummet, a major new study has indicated that HCQ is highly effective against the virus, and remdisivir is as well. Deaths are going DOWN, even as infections are going UP. Right now, stats on covid death rates are evolving in a way that may eventually show that covid is far less lethal than we feared. This is a very good article on what we know and don’t know, at least as far as the Texas spike is concerned. https://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=53858

    The reporting on this has made it it very difficult for the average person to judge how much risk they are incurring, if they go to something like an indoor rally. So, a prudent person would decide to wait until more information is available.

    “Either masks work or they don’t. If you’re going to compel mask use, then open everything up. Otherwise this isn’t public health but tyranny. If the mask is the antidote here, then give us our life back.”

    ~ Also agreed. I wear a mask everywhere, although i take it off when I’m outside and easily able to maintain social distance. I don’t do it to avoid catching covid, since I have been tested positive for antibodies, but in order to make others comfortable in my presence, and to take seriously their concerns. My doctor, who is an infectious disease specialist says masks are of limited value, but, if everyone wears them in high risk situations, it may help reduce transmission. Good enough for me.

    Anyway, this comment is long enough.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 3, 2020 2:31 pm

      I would bet that the panic and anxiety over C19 tends to split along political lines.

      Tucker Carlson is skyrocketting at the moment.

      He is using the riots, arson, vandalism, … in the same way the left is using C19.
      He is tapping into and amplifying the fears of ordinary people of anarchy and chaos.

      And it is working.

      The left has tried innumerable times to “cancel” Carlson – and failed.
      I beleive he is the single most viewed Political talking head today.

      Further Carlson is attacking Republicans for under reacting to the lawlessness of the left.

      While I beleive that Carlson is over reacting, he is still reflecting the perception of enormous numbers of people.

      An enormous number of people are very uneasy. The left is terrifying and dangerous.
      People are losing the jobs, being publicly humiliated, subject to death threats,
      merely for saying all live matter. Or saying anything that conflicts with the left mantra.

      This is one of many reasons I beleive the polls are wrong right now.
      We are learning that speaking at all – much less honestly, is dangerous.
      And it is dangerous for all of us.

      We are not seeing a conflict between Der Sturmer and Antifa.
      Those being silenced are often on the left.
      There is a cottage industry right now of black men making videos that purport to portray terrified leftist white women as racist.

      I can not think of a faster way for democrats to lose the election than to alienate leftist white women.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 3, 2020 2:55 pm

      It is increasingly evident – and we knew some of this from Wuhan before this got here,

      That C19 is much less severe than the Flu for people under 30.

      We should have understood from the start that we need to take extraordinary measures to protect the small group that is actually at serious risk, and let the rest especially younger people go about their ordinary lives.

      There has never been a respiratory infection that was defeated by any other means than herd immunity.

      the lockdown has likely made things worse rather than better, by slowing the rate at which we develop immunity.

  43. dhlii permalink
    July 3, 2020 3:48 pm

    Tucker Carlson is the prime voice of a political point of view that I disagree with.

    But he is a vocal advocate of free speech and amazingly dominates punditry despite repeated efforts to “cancel” him.

    One of the things this article notes is that not only is Carlson – and Fox dominating the over 60 demographic – they also own the key 25-59 demographic

    https://outkick.com/tucker-carlson-record-fox-news/

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 12:15 am

      And how do you think they will feel in November is the rate of violent crime rate remains doubled or more which is highly likely ?

      And separately – how does this not reflect badly on these people ?

      There have been more blacks killed by rioters, than unarmed blacks killed by police in 2020.
      And that does not count the hundreds of millions of dollars in damages and the rush of people leaving these cities.

      I will credit these “protests” for being less violent than expected – but that in itest is pretty damning.

      We saw only a few weeks earlier that it was possible to protest government – infact engage in armed protest of government, without looting, arson, violence, and destruction.

      So we know it can be done.

      We were told by the left wing media how “scary” these protests were, Yet, nothing bad happened.
      Now we are told by the same media how peaceful these protests are – and yet there is 1/2B of damage, hundreds of stores – mostly in black communities destroyed – and many not coming back ever – it typically takes decades for the poor neighborhoods in a city to recover from riots.

      So I guess you are saying that we only care when blacks are killed by police ?
      Not when kids are killed in driveby’s ? Nit when black communties are damaged for years ?

      I presume because you posted this story that you share that view ?

      Honestly – I think the wisest thing we could do would be to allow minorities communities to determine their own government, their own policing.
      OOPS – to a large part they already do, and what they do not is done by their saviours – democrats.

      While the data does not support the “systemic racism” nonsense. Honestly I do not care.
      Whatever changes these communities wish to make to their governance, to their policing,
      that is up to them. They are the ones who will have to live with the results.

      As to your article/poll more broadly:

      Biden can not figure out where the h#!! he stands.
      Democrats seem perfectly content to give BLM the cities they claim they want.
      And Trump appears to be moving toward running as the law and order candidate in 2020.

      I guess we will find out in November whether that strategy works.

      Personally, i am glad that no matter who wins in 2020, that defund the police is not coming to my community.

      I bet the same is true for every other poster here.
      I think it is pretty hypocritical of all of us to experiment with policing of minority communities without any thought of changing our own.

      So how about it Robby, Jay, Rick, Ron, Priscilla – should we defund our own police too ?

      Do not get me wrong – I have lots to complain about policing – and a multi-decade record of advocating for changes to policing.

      But there is not one reform on my long list that I would move forward on if it meant doubling the violent crime rate – how about the rest of you ?

  44. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 3, 2020 7:01 pm

    I was wondering what had happened to old David Brooks so I googled him. This is a very thoughtful piece on why some police wind up committing violent responses to citizens. Something here that should resonate with both liberal and conservative viewpoints. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/how-police-brutality-gets-made/613030/

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 1:08 am

      There are interesting things in the Brooks article.

      But I grow very tired of the media jumping the shark on systemic racism.

      There are absolutely some cultural problems in our policing – but despite decades of efforts, no one has actually found a credible signal that demonstrates “systemic racism”.

      Policing as a whole is authoritarian and if you challenge the authority of police they are prone to escalate – they are TAUGHT to escalate. Policing is “systemically authoritarian” it is “systemically confrontational”.

      We can – but likely will not, discuss reforming that.

      But change is not going to happen overnight, and there are only two problems with policing that should be blamed on the officers themselves.

      The first is that there ARE a few bad apples,
      The second is that those bad apples would not remain but for the silence of other officers.

      All other problems with policing
      ARE institutional and systemic.
      They ARE NOT racist.

      And though policing can be improved it is NEVER going to be warm and fuzzy.

      If you pass a law, ultimately men with guns will enforce it, and when someone resists sufficiently – they will be killed.

      That MUST be true of EVERY LAW, and EVERY REGULATION.

      It is not and should not be up to the police when to enforce the law or not.

      The responsibility rests with US not to make laws we are not prepared to kill those who resist strongly enough.

      Which is my last point – aside from the two problems with police officers I pointed out the systemic problems of policing rest with US.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 1:18 am

      “It’s interesting that states with the highest numbers of police shootings per capita are in the West, where the gun ethos is more common: New Mexico, Alaska, Oklahoma, Arizona, Colorado, and Nevada. The states with the lowest rates are in the East: Rhode Island, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Jersey.”

      And yet the heinous racist police actions are NOT for the most part taking place “where the gun ethos is more common”.

      They nearly all occur in democrat, minority majority cities. Mineapolis, Atlanta, Chicago, LA, Seattle, New York, Baltimore.

      In many instances they occur in places with the strictest gun control in the country.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 1:21 am

      “The pressure brought by Black Lives Matter, and the reforms that police departments are instituting in response, is having an effect.”

      FALSE, police shootings (and brutality complaints) and crime rates have ALL been declining since the mid 80’s. BLM had absolutely nothing to do with that.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 1:33 am

      Robby,

      There is lots of excellent information in Brooks article – things I have been pointing out for decades.

      There are a few errors what mar weaken the article – if you thread a false narrative of racism through and otherwise excellent article you diminish trust in the rest of the article.
      The same is true of the brief false digression about western states and gun culture and about the nonsense that BLM has had an influence.

      Frankly, I do not think Brooks stressed enough the negative impacts of the militarization of policing. Nearly every police force in this country has a SWAT team – yet there are maybe half a dozen instances in the entire country each year where a SWAT team is warranted.

      A police force that has a SWAT team finds a way to use them.
      SWAT teams are “SHOCK and AWE”
      Maybe that is acceptable – if the only victims are criminals.
      But SWAT raid subjects the entire community in the vicinity to a military SHOCK and AWE raid – it is traumatizing and alienating. It does NOT bond the police and communities.

      The other think Brooks did not stress enough is “policing for profit”
      This was a huge deal in Fergusson, it is a big deal in NYC, I am told it is a big deal in Mineapolis. Again the police do not bond with the communities they serve when they are wringing cash from them to fund government.

      BOTH of these problems are not problems cause by law enforcement – they are problems caused by GOVERNMENT.

      What I find incredibly facile at the moment is that we have protestors ranting about “Defunding the police” – often it is the very city counsels who implimented the policies – like policing for profit, that are the cause of the problems.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 1:46 am

      Again – despite my criticism’s I think Brook’s article is overall excellent.

      One area he addresses which is of great importance is that we know that policing works best when the police are considered part of the communities they serve.

      Every policy that sets them up as outsiders, that encourages the us/them mentality is a problem.

      The fact is that the number of bad police killings per year is NOT the problem. The numbers are minuscule. More minority toddlers are killed in drive buys in Chicago in a year than bad police shootings in the entire country.

      But in many many instances the police are not considered by the communities they serve to be part of that community, and the police do not consider themselves part of that community.
      That is a big part of the problem right now. It is also likely the most fundamental next step to reducing crime.

      The last thing I want to address is the dangers of policing.
      While Brooks fixates on the lesson that policing is dangerous that is drilled into police officers. And it is true that Policing is not as dangerous as High seas fishing or cell phone antenna repair. It is one of the most dangerous professions that employs 1M people.

      Police have good reason to be scared – there is good reason to train them in the use of weapons, there is good reason to train them in self defense.

      You can hold whatever opinion you wish of the Rayshard Brooks shooting. But you can not watch the video without grasping that the outcome could easily have gone horribly wrong for the two cops. Brooks was big and strong and went for their weapons and managed to get one of their Tasers. He could have taken one of their guns, or their Billy Clubs.
      Regardless, most of us do not have jobs that could require us to wrestle with a big man, or someone crazy, or someone high at any moment.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 4, 2020 11:29 am

        Well, you took that pretty well.

        No institutional racism in policing? First of all, there is no clear definition of this term and people can mean a lot of things by it. To make myself clear I do not see institutional racism in America in any deliberate manner outside of policing. In fact, our legal system got rid of almost anything like that in the 50s 60s and 70s. The system very often does not work in the favor of black citizens, but that is mostly because the system often does not work well for the poor, which blacks disproportionately are.

        The basic thing is very well illustrated by what Sen Tim Scott talked about in an NPR piece I posted above. Constant pull overs and harassment. And he is an upper class and conservative representative of African Americans. How exactly can you so what what he said away? It just does not matter in your world. The poverty and perpetually decaying inner cities add to the perception that blacks and their white friends have that things are by far not right in America regarding race.

        My light brown (highly intellectual, well dressed, polite, conservative leaning) friend in Vermont has been stopped and interrogated by cops who would not even identify themselves on country roads several times for no reason at all, for walking while black. You will say, so what. It is not so what to him.

        When the cops do clearly go overboard and kill someone, black or white, they get off most often or are not even charged.

        I am disgusted by rioters. I hate mobs. Left wing nut radicals like in the CHOP zone make me puke. And yes, now its also a COVID spreading disaster.

        It does not change the fact that policing is the one area of society where it is very, very possible to see a race related pattern. Apparently so many people in the country have seen that in the Floyd case that they are more upset with the cops than they are with the rioters. That is a fact, by 2 to 1 Americans are more upset about the racial meaning of the Floyd murder than the reaction to it. Dismiss that all you want. You believe that will reverse itself by Nov. We will see.

      • July 4, 2020 12:39 pm

        Roby, I agree that DWB, WWB and all the other “activities while hlack” and being stopped and questioned has to stop.

        But I also believe the black community has failed to create any movement that will make a difference or a lasting one.

        How can meaningful change occur when you have people like Colin Kaeperneck, a communist sympathizer, as a face of your human rights movement. ALCU is a patchwork of multiple offices with little national movement. Liberal politicians doing nothing but using minorities to get reelected, all while supporting another group, corrupt police unions, to further their reelection efforts.

        Change comes from positive actions. MLK used.nonviolent actions, not the current methods. MLK was a national leader. Blacks had a unified voice that today they lack. How can they rally behind a BLM movement, create an autonomous zone and then block police and EMT’s from responding to Horrace Anderson when he was shot and lay dying in the street? Was his black life not important?

        The movement needs a strong national voice to organize local movements to work with local leaders to be effective.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 3:13 pm

        “No institutional racism in policing?”
        Not what I have said.

        I have said there is no “Systemic racism” in policing.

        Systemic and institutional are different.
        Systemic racism is the pervasive racism of the majority of police.

        Institutional racism is racism designed into the institution – it is not the racism of the police officers, but the racism of the system.

        Minimum wage laws are a very real example of institutional racism.
        They were imposed with the deliberate intent of making it harder for blacks to get jobs.
        And from the 30’s when the first MW laws came about through to today, MW laws are racist by design and racist in effect.

        Licensing laws are also examples of institutional racism. I am not familiar enough with their history – though I strongly suspect their origins are racist, regardless their effect is racist.

        Most progressive programs are institutionally racist. The disastrous impact of great society programs on minorities being on example. Zoning is another example.

        Large portions of the regulation that you celebrate was intentionally racist, more of it is in effect racist.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 3:27 pm

        “No institutional racism in policing? First of all, there is no clear definition of this term and people can mean a lot of things by it. To make myself clear I do not see institutional racism in America in any deliberate manner outside of policing. In fact, our legal system got rid of almost anything like that in the 50s 60s and 70s. The system very often does not work in the favor of black citizens, but that is mostly because the system often does not work well for the poor, which blacks disproportionately are.”

        Pretty much wrong from start to finish.

        First “if people can mean alot of things by it” – there is no means of meaningful public discourse.

        I have criticized you – and the left for the deliberate destruction of language – this is an example. If words have the same meaning for all of us – then we are all discussing the same thing, we are all deciding the same thing.

        And the likelyhood is we can not get anywhere near a majority to agree.

        PPACA is an example – though the overwhelming majority of people favored reform to healthcare, there was majority support for few if any components of PPACA.

        If we can not agree on what this or that form of racism is – how do we have a proper public debate ?

        The lefts deconstruction of meaning in words is specifically because it is possible to get majority even support majority support for each individuals personal definition, but no even majority support for anything held in common.

        A perfect example of this is BLM support.

        There are few people who would not agree that “Black Lives Matter”.
        Though many of us oppose the violence and looting and arson. There is near universal support for “Black Lives Matter”.

        I do not think there is one of us who if we had a magic want and could wave it and provide black communities with decent schools, good job opportunities, communities free of drugs and crime – we would gladly do so.

        But there are no magic wands and wanting an outcome does not make it possible, nor justify what is done to acheive that outcome.

        But only a tiny portion of us support the values of BLM the organization.

        If you are arguing to use force to change something and you can not even clearly define what you seek to change – your actions are not moral.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 3:39 pm

        I would agree that from the 50’s through the present we have purged systemic racism from our police forces.

        We have NOT purged racism from our legal system.
        There is no evidence of systemic racism in policing that is not the consequence of poor/shallow statistical analysis of the type that can always be used to prove anything you want.
        There is evidence that criminal sentencing is systemically racist.
        Further many of our laws are either facially racists – MW laws were created to keep blacks down, or racist in effect – such as occupational licensing laws.

        I would completely agree that things do not work for the poor – and that minorities are disproportionately poor – and that is the root of most of the statistical error in claiming systemic racism. Nearly every statistic that claims poor blacks are very badly treated – poor whites are treated equally badly.

        But I would also be very careful – because while crime correlates very highly to poverty.
        We actually know that poverty does NOT cause crime.

        The fundimental driving factor for crime is not how poor you are, but your perception of a disparity of opportunities between yourself and others.

        Massive poverty does not result in high crime.
        Crime is most rampant where those who have less live in reasonable proximity to those who have more, but see no opportunity for improvement.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 3:53 pm

        I have been constantly pulled over and harassed by police.
        Maybe not so much as Tim Scott. But quite alot.

        I have had police officers threaten to impound my car, to jail me for the night.
        This occurs pretty universally when I am pulled over – legitimately or otherwise, by an officer and things go off script.

        I am not saying “so what” to what he says.

        First, though being pulled over by a police officer is never pleasant, and it is always a bit dangerous – for everyone, and I have noted one or two particularly heinous police stops,
        most of them actually go well – and they go well whether I am personally happy about the outcome. Whether they go badly depends on whether the officer is polite and professional and sticks to his job, or whether he is domineering and demanding and views everything as a challenge. and that has nothing to do with race. Mire unarmed whites are killed by police each year than blacks.

        Finally – Tim Scott’s story is touching. Though clearly it did not touch any democrats. But what matters is the reform’s he proposed.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 3:56 pm

        “The poverty and perpetually decaying inner cities add to the perception that blacks and their white friends have that things are by far not right in America regarding race.”

        I would completely agree.
        Just about every major city in this country has been managed by democrats for my entire lifetime. Many of them by black democrats.

        Give me a good reason to beleive that those of us who do NOT live in poverty in cities should once again fund some program that ultimately makes things worse not better ?

        Sorry, Robby – if poverty in the cities is the problem that needs fixed – it is YOUR problem.
        Go Fix it.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:00 pm

        “When the cops do clearly go overboard and kill someone, black or white, they get off most often or are not even charged.”

        There were 9 unarmed blacks killed by police in 2019.
        4 of those instances resulted in charges.
        Of the remainer – the officer clearly had done their job – as an example if an unarmed person was shot while struggling to take an officers gun.

        We all tend to forget that Micheal Jackson initially confronted the officer that killed him. That he reached through the window of the police car and tried to take the officers gun from him.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:01 pm

        Sorry – Micheal Brown.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:02 pm

        “It does not change the fact that policing is the one area of society where it is very, very possible to see a race related pattern”
        False.

        If you do not know that you are very poorly informed.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 4, 2020 1:10 pm

        Ron, I understand your point, but I can also understand why it is rare that one wise charismatic leader becomes the voice of a disparate group of people.

        During the civil rights movement in the 60s blacks had much more reason to be active as a united group. As Dave says, things today are better. They do not compare with segregation, they do not compare with the conditions in the 60s (and prior to that of course). That does not mean that there is nothing much further to change, but it does mean that one united black response is not as natural.

        There were many black Civil Rights leaders, Malcolm X, Jesse Jackson, Abernathy, as well as King. Now it has all faded in our cultural memory, much like Reagan’s presidency has, into a good memory of a needed positive changes.

        People were by no means so thrilled at the time.

        When MLK was shot my parents informed me in the morning and asked what I thought about it. I was in 6th grade. My teacher was a conservative woman who had been painting King and the whole Civil Rights movement in dark light, rioters, crazy people. (Reminds me of something more modern). I told my parents that I guess it must be a good thing he was killed since King was making so much trouble. That was the impression I got from my teacher. I guess my parents went off to the school and had a talk with someone.

        King is dead, he was martyred. I wonder how he would be remembered if he had lived. Perhaps much differently.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 6:20 pm

        Alot that I would agree with.

        The worse things are the easier it is to get people to come together and agree on what the problems are and what to do to solve them.

        There are no leaders arrising – in pretty much anything today – because the problems are not overall that severe.

        The exception to this is Trump. As I have said before – Trump is a reaction to the PC tactics of the left. There is a single leader because there is a single clear large problem and one person who has taken it on themselves to confront that.

        This should also make it clear that americans as a whole think that this PC intolerance is a more serious problem than policing – or some clear leader would arrise.

        But ultimately problems are not solved by leaders or government.
        Racism has diminished over time not because of government – but inspite it.

        You can claim whatever you want, but ultimately crime is a far greater problem for minority communities than issues with policing.

        What we have seen through the entire Trump presidency is the left with the aide of the media trying to amplify small things into big things.

        That can be done for brief periods. It can not be done permanently.

        Even if everything you claim about C19 is true – people as slowly losing patience.
        Even the Floyd protests are atleast partly an explosion of lockdown anger.

        C19 is fading slowly – both in reality and from peoples minds.
        There are few people who will be voting based on C19.

        This Policing bruhaha will fade even faster.

        This is little different from the ranting that occurs after every mass shooting.
        For a few weeks On one side – gun sales skyrocket, on the other there is a cry for draconian legislation. And with time the issue fades.

        Policing will take longer.

        C19 will take longer still.

        But they will fade – until the next epidemic, or heinous video of a police killing.

    • July 4, 2020 11:12 am

      It’s an interesting article, Roby, and I agree with a lot of it. I do think that Brooks is a bit cavalier in his attitude toward the very real dangers that police face (for example, I think that a murderous person with a knife can, in fact, kill an officer with a gun, if that officer is reluctant to draw his weapon or is approached from behind. Especially if the officer is alone.) On the other hand, I agree with Brooks that police officers often begin their careers as idealists and become corrupted by the violence and danger that they face, sometimes on a daily basis.

      Police reform is clearly something that would help to prevent some of the more egregious instances of brutality.

      I’m wondering if you read the summary of the police reform bill proposed by Senator Tim Scott, and blocked by the Democrats (Joe Manchin and 2 others sided with Republicans). Nancy Pelosi called Scott’s bill the GOP’s attempt to “get away with George Floyd’s murder,” before putting forward a House bill, which had many of the identical reforms, and then refused allow any GOP amandments, essentially insuring that the Senate would refuse to consider it. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/politics/senate-police-reform-bill/index.html

      It seems to me that, if there is a bipartisan desire to pass a police reform bill, yet one side refuses to debate or to compromise on any bill, whether it be their own or the other party’s, that they are simply playing politics with this issue, and they don’t really want anything to change.

      So, that last paragraph is my opinion, which is open to debate. I’m fairly certain that you disagree with my take on this, and I am open to your argument. Was Scott wrong in being angered that Democrats would not debate or offer amendments to his bill? Were Democrats wrong in blocking it, then propsing a very similar bill? Isn’t the whole point of having two parties in Congress, that they will attempt to reach consensus on legislation which both sides believe is in the best interest of the public?

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 4, 2020 11:42 am

        Priscilla, Scott has one reaction to things that happen to him because he is black. He has another reaction to the political events that affect him as a conservative. So, he is a member of two groups and behaves in the context of his group in different situations. Pelosi was wrong in her rhetoric, yes. Not helpful, even nasty.

        But… are the Democrats really supposed to support a minimal police reform bill that does not go, in their opinion, far enough because Tim Scott is black?

        It makes great theater to put Scott as the front man for the GOP. It will play well with both bases to either believe that if he supports the bill he must be honored by passing it or that if he supports the bill, well he is a conservative and deliberately did not join the black caucus and so is a sort of Uncle Tom. He has receive death threats and abuse nuts from both ideological sides.

        Tim Scott is in the limelight and he is doing his best to be true to both his own racial experiences and his conservative beliefs. I empathize with his situation.

        The rest of this police bill debate is politics in their usual form. I would love it if our politicians of both parties could work together productively. I am not going to blame one party and claim the other is just fine and sincere. They both could do better. The American public as of the moment truly wants something substantive done.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:08 pm

        “But… are the Democrats really supposed to support a minimal police reform bill that does not go, in their opinion, far enough?”

        They do not need to support it, All they need to do is not use a fillibuster.

        The Senate and house bills would then be reconciled in a joint committee, and the result would get an up down vote.

        And yes. I would support a reform bill that did not go far enough.

        As a practical matter NO federal bill can “go far enough” there is no federal power over policing.

        Further, the first rule of government should be the same as that of physicians – “first do no harm”.

        The single most important thing that needs done federally – is to end qualified immunity.
        That is dead with both parties.

        The Next, would be ending the militarization of the police.

        The last would be to end federal asset forfeiture.

        There is little beyond those that is actually the domain of the federal government.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:10 pm

        “It makes great theater to put Scott as the front man for the GOP. It will play well with both bases to either believe that if he supports the bill he must be honored by passing it or that if he supports the bill, well he is a conservative and deliberately did not join the black caucus and so is a sort of Uncle Tom. He has receive death threats and abuse nuts from both ideological sides.”

        If course it is great political theater. And frankly it is wrong.
        Neither democrats nor republicans should be passing laws based on appeals to emotions.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:18 pm

        “I am not going to blame one party and claim the other is just fine and sincere.”

        Why not ? You do so all the time. You are happy to blame Trump in a conflict, You are happy to blame the GOP.

        If you are unwilling to do the same when it is democrats obstructing – then YOU are the problem.

        We are still fighting over immigration – yet immigration reform was trivial nearly a decade ago.

        It remains so today.

        Dreamers get amnesty,
        The Wall gets built
        The rules get changed to make mass illegal immigration harder.

        You could get republicans to agree to that in a heart beat.
        You could get 80% of americans to agree to it.

        A part of the reason you will not get a police reform bill through congress is that Democrats do not want to give Trump and Republicans an opportunity to claim they have accomplished anything.

        They do not what even bi-partisan accomplishments.

        That is OK – they are free to act that way, but they should be judged accordingly in Nov.

        If you are a voter and you would have accepted the Scott Bill – even less than perfect,
        They you should be voting for the Republican in your senate race.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 2:47 pm

        The rejection of Scotts bill is much more insidious.

        Had it passed – the bills are similar enough they would have gone to a joint house/senate conference to be reconciled. The Conference would have made one bill out of both that would have gone before the house and senate and would have had an up down vote.

        Reconciled bills from a conference can not be filibustered or amended.
        Congress must take them or leave them, and they must be brought to the floor for a vote.

        Scotts bill was rejected by democrats – because they do not want ANY bill to pass – not even a version of their own.

        This is also why Immigration reform is not possible, why democrats do not actually solve the problems of minorities.

        Democrats need these as campaign issues to get elected.

  45. July 4, 2020 11:17 am

    • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
      July 4, 2020 12:06 pm

      I’ll note the irony of the treatment that Goldberg has received from many conservatives in the trump era. and the effect it has had on his career. I have read the vitriol thrown at him in comments on the National review site by the true believers. Man is he despised.

      That said, my two youngest kids live in Boston and have been to protests. As far as I know that did not break anything or set anything on fire. They just used their free speech rights. I wish that they were the one and only form of this protest and that various looters, anarchists, and assorted angry nut jobs were not also part of it.

      I mentioned before the situation in Russia, China, and even Japan where people are very patriotic and do not do much, if any, public soul searching of their countries’ past. I am hopeful that when the dust has settled the founders and the early Americans will have been strongly but mostly fairly examined and their good and bad will have been revisited. This is healthy. I do not think that the future holds an America where every public person who lived before 1960 has been disgraced and their ideas repudiated and driven out. If it were only conservatives defending the past then yes, that future could happen. Most people are not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater, even including liberals like myself. Conservatives may over reach and have it backfire if they take the line that trump took yesterday in his speech. Bad evil people overthrowing America. trump in his own way throws bombs that are every bit as destructive, if not more so, to the meaning of America than those of the rioters and anarchists.

      That WSJ poll I posted had a question about ideology. Only 12% rated themselves very liberal. Moderates were by far the largest group. Conservatives in the strong and mild forms outnumbered liberals in the strong and mild forms by 10% if I remember. This is the group of Americans that was more upset with the police than the protesters, I think it was more or less by 60% to 30%.

      These events cannot be attributed to a raging left-wing revolution. Hard lefties, CHOP zone type radicals, anarchists, etc. number in the tens of thousand I would estimate. My estimate is based from my time on various campuses in Vermont. At UVM the hard left was not one student in a thousand. There were 3 or 4 radical professors out of hundreds. But they make a lot of noise. In general I loath them, most of all because they disgrace the ideas that the majority of sane liberals hold.

      • July 4, 2020 2:22 pm

        Roby, I am convnced that you are correct that many of the protesters were genuinely peaceful, and supportive of the rallying cry that “black lives matter” I believe that there was some poll that showed that 78% of Americans (presumably many Republicans and Trump supporters) were included in that group. I certainly believe that black lives matter ~ all black lives, not to mention all lives (yes I know, that makes me not “woke”).

        But, capital letter Black Lives Matter is an avowedly left-wing, neo-Marxist organization, and along with Antifa, a loosely organized group of radical and violent left-wing anarchists, they hijacked the legitimate George Floyd protests.

        Really, I think it’s as simple as that. And it was up to the mayors of the cities that were set aflame, and saw homes and businesses vandalized, looted and destroyed, to stop the riots, or ask the federal government for help.

        But they didn’t. Why they didn’t is another discussion.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 6:32 pm

        It is inarguable that the mayors and governors in these states have failed.

        First responsibility is with the protestors themselves.

        The lockdown protestors showed that you can peacfully THREATEN government.

        But these mayors and governors failed.
        We can have protests without violence, looting and rioting.
        If the protestors can not manage themselves – then it is governments job.

        The police and possibly national guard should have forceibly if necescary moved protestors from business and residential areas to court houses and state houses, and there adjoining parks.

        The right to protest government does not mean in large crowds with molatov cocktails in the middle of central business districts.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:28 pm

        I like Goldberg – alot. He is one of the more libertarain conservatives.
        I also like Will – even more.

        But Both are wrong about Trump.

        Or more accurately they are wrong that Trump’s flaws make him uniquely unqualified as president.

        Further the opposition of Goldberg and Will is quite Odd.

        As Jeffrey Tucker – an “anarcho-capitalist” and never Trumper before the election, noted regarding Trump – While Trump is FAR from any libertarian ideal, Trump has accomplished more of what libertarians want than possibly any other president.

        He has dis-empowered neocons.
        He has been the most deregulatory president since Carter – possibly ever.
        He has made judicial appointments that are as close to libertarain as we could have any hope of.

        Had Johnson/Weld been elected in 2016 – they would not have been able to get through a congress of democrats and republicans the libertarain things Trump has succeeded at.

        Will and Goldberg have cast their lot with the neocons and statists of both parties that they despise.

        I have no problem with Will and Goldberg criticising Trump.
        I do not expect their full throated support – Trump does not have mine.

        I expect them to criticise him where he deserves criticism and credit him where he has done well.

        And by the metrics that Goldberg and Will claimed were their values – there is plenty that Trump has done well.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:35 pm

        That right to protest, the right to assemble, the right to free speech, the right to petition the government.

        Every one of those is one of the western values that these protestors are trying to destroy,

        You ask for a fair assessment of our founders.

        They have already gotten that.
        Were you not aware that Madison, Jefferson, and Washington owned slaves ?

        Almost the entirety fo the american history I was taught was about the conflicts over slavery in the first 100 years of this country.

        All our hero’s have clay feet, MLK was a philanderer. Even Eisenhower was cheating on his wife.

        We do not need the left to rewrite our history to eliminate the good and portray the country as entirely evil.

        There are lots of warts – some pretty bad ones in US history. No one is hiding that.
        It does not alter the fact that this country has been the world’s beacon of freedom – warts and all for centuries.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:47 pm

        Robby,

        So what is the distance between what BLM’s actual leaders want, What those in CHOP want, what AOC and the squad wants, what Democrats in their debates claimed they want, What Pelosi claims to want ?

        If this is the spectrum of democrats – and it pretty much is, then we are at best talking about a democratic party that is going to follow the same ruinous policies that have destroyed and impoverished people all over the world.

        So we do not get the most radical elements(today) – we do not get “defunding the police”

        We get M4A or some further step towards botched socialized medicine that even most of europe does not actually have.
        We get some expanded federal college education subsidy that ultimately accomplishes nothing except making college even more expensive and dysfunctional.
        We get restrictions on fracking that drive prices in everything up and empower our enemies accross the globe.
        We get more government money wasted on energy policies that have not worked anywhere they have been tried.

        We get a return to mass illegal immigration.

        I can go on and on.

        The most moderate wing of the democratic party is pretty radical.

        Democrats offer us a choice between socialism lite and marxism.
        Neither of which work.

        You bitched when Democrats were called Socialist under Obama.
        Democrats today embrace socialism.

        It does not work.

        Why is the US striving to make the same mess of itself that Europe is struggling to get out of.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:47 pm

        The academy today is not the academy that you or I attended.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 3:02 pm

      The people burning down the house, do not want free speech, they do not want free assembly, they do not want due process.

      Even if we ignore the violence, what we are seeing is a mass effort to silence, to disenfranchise, to condemn and execute without trial.

      Those caught tearing down the statues will get their day in court, will get due process, the government will have to prove their case, the accused will get to make their own arguments.
      What of those who are being “canceled” ?
      What of those who have lost their jobs for remarks like “all lives matter” ?
      What of those banned by youtube, twitter, facebook ? Often for statements whose offense is impossible to find.

      “The tyranny of a multitude is a multiplied tyranny.”
      Edmund Burke

      “tolerance is extended to policies, conditions, and modes of behavior which should not be tolerated because they are impeding, if not destroying, the chances of creating an existence without fear and misery” “this sort of tolerance strengthens the tyranny of the majority against which authentic liberals protested”
      Herbert Marcuse’s “Repressive Tolerance”

      “When society is itself the tyrant — society collectively over the separate individuals who compose it — its means of tyrannising are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself.”
      John Stuart Mill “On Liberty”

  46. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 4, 2020 12:35 pm

    Apparently the Rushmore event included no serious attempt to prevent COVID transmission. Masks and social distancing were in short supply.

    No I do not think it is OK when protesters do it either.

    But this is the POTUS, trump, his people, his administration staged an even where the number one crisis of our time was treated as a non event. If those people want to infect themselves, fine their families, not so fine, all the people they and their families will contact, apparently with low regard for masks or social distancing, just ludicrous.

    The POTUS makes decisions that lead to the deaths of American soldiers, that is inevitable. Bad decisions that lead to the deaths of non military Americans? Not inevitable and disgusting.

    Believing that COVID will just go away seems to be the trump reelection strategy. That and his bad evil people rhetoric, which clearly is meant to be aimed at his opponents in the minds of his true believers.

    He is down 10 against biden, underwater by 15. The Dem party is up by 9 in the generic preferences. Its not an accident. Its not likely to just reverse itself.

    • July 4, 2020 1:52 pm

      Roby, I don’t believe that South Dakota ever shut down. Its schools remained open, no one lost their jobs, and people do not wear masks. Kristi Noem said that there was no reason to do so, since SD’s poulation is so small that they are naturally socially distant.

      At some point, after that, there was a very bad outbreak at a Smithfield pork processing plant, and that plant was temporarily shut down and many family members of the workers also got sick. Ron has commented before about the fact that workers in meat processing plants tend to be recent immigrants, poor, and living in crowded, often multi-family or multi-generational housing. I believe there were one or two deaths associated with the outbreak. The outbreak was handled as an isolated incident and other parts of the state were not put under quarantine.

      Noem had previously announced that masks would not be required, but would be provided at the event. Right or wrong, this was handled at the state level, just as it has been all over the country,

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 4:50 pm

      “Apparently the Rushmore event included no serious attempt to prevent COVID transmission. Masks and social distancing were in short supply.”

      And if death rates spike as a result – Trump will not get re-elected.
      It is that simple.

      If they do not – the scolds such as yourself have a huge amount of Crow to eat.

      You do not seem to grasp that just because I and many others choose to err on the side of caution, does not mean that YOU are entitled to impose that on all by force.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 4:55 pm

      “Bad decisions that lead to the deaths of non military Americans?”

      And your evidence of that ?
      Belgium, UK, Italy, Spain, France,
      all have death rates higher than the US.
      Most of Europe has death rates near identical to the US.

      So far the evidence is that no world leader has done much of anything that made this better or worse.

      What we are seeing thus far is about twice as bad as a bad flu year.
      It is NOT the number 1 crisis of our time.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 5:09 pm

      “Believing that COVID will just go away seems to be the trump reelection strategy. ”

      And if he is correct he will be re-elected.
      I suspect that is what actually has you so angry.

      I think Cuomo and NY have handled C19 badly – but it appears that it has burned out in NY.

      If that is not correct – if there is not already something close to Herd immunity in NY, NY will not be able to come out of lockdown without C19 flaring up again.

      NY has low numbers of new infections, death, hospitalizations, but it still has thousands of active cases and many many more undetected. ‘

      As I noted either NY is near herd immunity – or they too will see this giant 2nd wave that you are claiming is on us.

      Only a few people from europe are the cause for the tens of thousands of deaths in NY.
      Absent immunity the orders of magnitude more currently infected new yorkers will cause an explosion of new cases if NY EVER reopens.

      If I am wrong – if Trump is wrong – we will have to keep the economy completely locked down until there is a vaccine, and in the meantime millions will get infected and die – just more slowly.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 5:35 pm

      Lets assume that you are right and we are in the midst of a 2nd wave.

      How are you planning on stopping that ?
      Go back to lockdowns.

      Assuming as you are claiming 100% susceptability to C19, everyone who has not gotten it yet is vulnerable and will remain vulnerable until:
      They get it.
      They get a working vaccine.
      Sufficient people have gotten it that we have heard immunity.

      So far the best studies I have seen are that over the long run masks and social distancing are about 55% effective. just to be clear that in NOT single exposure effectiveness, it is longer term. We know from hospital data that even 95% effective PPE will be completely ineffective over a long enough period.

      Basically PPE and Social distancing make it take longer to infect the entire vulnerable population – but ultimately masks or not, social distancing or not, nearly everyone who is not resistant will get this (or any other respiratory virus)

      So all you actually have to offer is a protracted economic recession/depression in the hope that a vaccine is developed soon. Because if that takes too long – the results will be the same.

      Nearly everyone gets infected.

      I do not think this hypothetical is true.
      But if true – it is your reality.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 5:37 pm

      “He is down 10 against biden”

      He is currently down 8.7 with the trend in Trump’s favor.
      Trump’s approval is currently 47 That is 1pt higher than Obama on this date in 2012.

      • July 4, 2020 5:48 pm

        He might be within of Obama, but Obama was never dislike personally as bad as Trump. He is down 20 in surburban polls, the exact people he needs in all the swing states.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 6:57 pm

        “He might be within of Obama, but Obama was never dislike personally as bad as Trump.”
        You are correct – republicans disliked Obama, and democrats liked him.
        Republicans love Trump, and democrats hate him.

        But in the end the results are likely the same.

        Obama when into 2012 with a weak economy little in the way of accomplishments, but against a weak opponent.

        Trump will go into 2020 riding a wave of positive economic news, increasing employment, having defeated C19, having the collusion delusion exposed. Having gotten out of Afghanistan, and facing an even weaker opponents.

        “He is down 20 in surburban polls, the exact people he needs in all the swing states.”
        CA25 and NY16 were suburban, and in blue states.

        I am actually expecting Trump to do well in suburbs.

        First the biggest target for the Floyd protests was cluelessly woke women being targeted by those even further left.

        This was not just saying police are racist, there was a strong undercurrent of hatred directed at liberal white women.

        Next increases in crime are a big driver of suburban voting.

        I understand it does not seem that way now,

        And who knows – we could get a plague of bloody frogs raining from the sky before the election. But absent another lunatic catastrophe all tides are running the republican direction.

  47. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 4, 2020 12:57 pm

    This to me is unbelievable. No wonder the GOP is down 9 in the generic congressional preference.

    “South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem said despite health experts’ concerns about a large gathering amid the coronavirus pandemic people would “not be social distancing” during a July 3 celebration at Mount Rushmore that will be attended by President Donald Trump.
    In an interview with the Republican governor on Monday, Fox News host Laura Ingraham decried the cancellation of other Independence Day celebrations and asked Noem for her response to those citing health concerns “as the reason to cancel all of these patriotic displays?”
    “You know Laura, in South Dakota, we’ve told people to focus on personal responsibility. Every one of them has the opportunity to make a decision that they’re comfortable with. So, we will be having celebrations of American independence,” Noem said. “We told those folks that have concerns that they can stay home. But those who want to come and join us, we’ll be giving out free face masks, if they choose to wear one. But we won’t be social distancing.”
    Noem encouraged to people to “be ready to celebrate, to enjoy the freedoms and the liberties that we have in this county.” She also said it was a chance to “talk about our history, what it brought us today, with the opportunity to raise our kids in the greatest country in the world.”
    “Yeah the media is just freaking out about the COVID problem,” Ingraham said of the news coverage of the COVID-19 outbreak that has killed more than 127,000 people in the U.S. and is infecting an increasing number of people in many states.
    Noem has been reluctant to issue lockdowns and other restrictive measures in response to the pandemic and Ingraham praised her decision, pointing to the fact there have been only 6,764 confirmed coronavirus cases and 91 related deaths in South Dakota – low figures even for a state with a population of fewer than 900,000 residents. ”

    https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/01/kristi-noem-social-distancing-mount-rushmore-trump/5354257002/

    • July 4, 2020 2:11 pm

      Whoops, I was commenting and missd your comment on this. Should have posted my response under this one, but I hadn’t seen it yet.

      Listen, I could go on and on about the 30,000 deaths in NY, 5000 of them in nursing homes that were forced, by Andrew Cuomo’s order, to accept positive covid patients, who had been determined not sick enough to be hospitalized, or whose conditions had stablilized. Phil Murphy in NJ and Tom Wolf in PA did the same thing. It literally caused thousands of deaths, shutdown or no shutdown, masks or no masks. These people were the most vulnerable of all, and the governors did nothing to protect them.

      Cuomo also refused to shut down the subways , or have them cleaned and sanitized, until reports indicated that it was the sardine-can-packed subway cars, with unmasked riders (masks were not initially required), that were contributng to the massive outbreak in NYC.

      Do I think Cuomo tried to kill these people? No. But he has been on TV, almost daily, patting himself on the back for the fact that NY’s infection rate is now lower than some other states.
      Many of the vulnerable people are already recovered, or dead. As Biden would say, “Come on, Man!”

      I think that it’s reasonable to assume that NY and SD would have very different situations in an epidemic, and that Kristi Noem would issue different orders than Cuomo, Wolf and Murphy.

      Easy to armchair quarterback, but we shouldn’t do it until we have the facts.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 4, 2020 4:33 pm

        How many more facts do we need before we can say that the POTUS should not be hosting huge mask optional events at this time?

        This is absurd and destructive and, perhaps I sound like a broken record, but history will remember and trump and the GOP now own the future progression of COVID and any deaths of innocents that can be traced to his activities.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 6:39 pm

        “How many more facts do we need before we can say that the POTUS should not be hosting huge mask optional events at this time?”

        None. There is no facts that would alter that as you say this is optional and voluntary.

        People are choosing on their own.

        It is not POTUS;s job to choose for them.
        It is not yours.

        “This is absurd and destructive and, perhaps I sound like a broken record, but history will remember and trump and the GOP now own the future progression of COVID and any deaths of innocents that can be traced to his activities.”

        Should your predictions prove true – you are likely correct.

        But that is highly unlikely and we both know that.

        BTW if you chose to go out and party without a mask – you are not innocent.

        I would suggest that you think more about the high probability you are wrong.

        There will not be spikes in deaths.
        People will enjoy the celebration.
        Trump’s popularity is on the rise again. Biden’s is falling.
        C19 is fading.
        The economy is recovering.
        The protests are fading.

        All trends lead towards Trump being re-elected.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 6:27 pm

        C19 has near certainly just about burned out in NY.

        It has done so with absolutely no regard for Cuomo’s actions.

        Aside from the stupid policies that you mentioned. The fundimental reasons that NY spiked so high are:

        Highest population density in the world
        Relatively northern
        not especially good diet,
        not especially good demographics.
        C19 arrived in NY very early.

        All these produce an early and high spike with a rapid collapse.

        States with different demographics and population density will automatically get longer flatter curves.

        I expect by the time we are done total infections in FL and TX will come close to those of NY,
        Though deaths will likely be much lower.

        There will be data scaling issues – because much more testing is being done in FL and TX right now, which means TX anf FL will show higher numbers of cases but much lower mortality. But that is just an artifact of testing.

      • July 4, 2020 9:41 pm

        “This is absurd and destructive and, perhaps I sound like a broken record, but history will remember and trump and the GOP now own the future progression of COVID and any deaths of innocents that can be traced to his activities.”

        Come on, Roby, that is about as fact-free as you can get.

        The idea that all future covid deaths will be Trump’s fault is absurd. How about the governors who literally banned doctors in their states from using hydroxychloroquine, even though the FDA had already granted emergency approval for its off-label use to treat covid? Then a now debunked study in the leftwing Lancet claimed that HCQ was useless in treating covid.
        In March, Andrew Cuomo, Gretchen Witmer, and Steve Sisolak (NV) ordered doctors not to prescribe HCQ for covid patients, unless they were in a clinical trial or were in critical condition (we know that HCQ works best in moderate early stage disease)

        Now, just this week, after tens of thousands have died of the disease, we find that a major large-scale study by the Henry Ford Health System has found that HCQ cuts deaths from covid by almost half. This, of course, is after many smaller studies found the same result, and dozens of anecdotal testimonials claimed that HCQ had saved patients who otherwise would have died. https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

        And NY and Michigan together account for a whopping 38,000 deaths. Not less than 100, like South Dakota. Not to mention, we have no idea how many, if any, attendees at the Mount Rushmore event could have been exposed to a disease which has been virtually gone from South Dakota, since April.

        So, I’ll say that these Democrat governors, who ordered doctors NOT to treat their patients with a potentially livesaving drug with a long and established safety record….well, then, I’ll say that THEY already “own” the deaths of thousands of innocents, many of who begged to be given the drug that they had heard described in the President’s briefings.

        Everyone can play at this blame game. But it’d more prudent to wait for facts ~ that’s my point.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 4, 2020 11:55 pm

        If History remembers Covid19 at all – it will remember what idiots we were.
        That for a disease that is not much beyond a bad flu that we shutdown the economy and panicked.

        The revolutionary war was fought in the middle of a pandemic – small pox, about 10 times as contagious as C19 and fatal 1/3 of the time. Yet, the colonists did not call the revolution off.

        https://www.aier.org/article/they-could-have-sheltered-in-place-instead-they-fought-a-revolution/

      • July 5, 2020 12:50 am

        This is what you get when medical treatment is politicized. Trump mentions the drug and immediately actions are taken to discredit by the opposition.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 5, 2020 3:21 am

        Why is it that the significance of that is not understood ?

        Nothing more clearly demonstrates that the objective of the media is to portray Trump as a dimwit and a failure – NO MATTER WHAT, That the left is actually hoping for failure, than HCQ.

        HCQ was first tried in China – based on decades of research in France.

        There were some indications that it was effective.

        At the Time Trump mentioned it – it had been used in China and South Korea and there were Tests going on in France.

        There was nothing wrong With Trump mentioning HCQ in the C19 breifing. There was nothing wrong with suggesting it might be a “game changer”.

        Isn’t our president supposed to give us hope ?

        Instead the media vultures attacked.
        There could be no valid purpose for the media attacks on Trump’s HCQ remarks except to destroy hope.

        I am still not sure whether HCQ is an important tool in fighting C19. There have been so many contradictory studies.

        But what is absolutely true is that the attacks on Trump about HCQ were vicious and unwarranted.

        And there is no way to read them beyond “hoping for failure”

        Something similar happened with the “injecting bleach” story.

        Trump was told of a potentially significant treatment that Brix explained to him was similar to bleaching your blood to kill the virus.

        Trump repeated the analogy. The press took the analogy in the worst possible literal sense.
        In fact the treatment was not similar to bleaching your blood – it was nearly littlerally bleaching your blood. But “bleaching” has a broader meaning that clorox.
        There are numerous “bleaches” including oxidizers, and many forms of disinfection are called bleaching.

        So Trump was correct in describing the process is bleaching.
        But that is not the same as injecting clorox.

        We are seeing the same thing with the numbers now.

        The press and the left WANTS a 2nd wave.

        Several people have tweeting that they would sacrifice millions to C19 to get rid of Trump.
        But funding a nut job to say something like that is not surprising there is always one nutjob.

        But infact it is evident that the press WANTS failure and death.

    • July 4, 2020 2:23 pm

      By the way, Roby, I believe that we are actually disagreeing in a civil manner.

      It must be the spirit of the 4th of July!! 😉

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 5:41 pm

      “No wonder the GOP is down 9 in the generic congressional preference.”
      And yet the GOP picked up two districts they lost in 2018 in the past month and they did so by 20pt+ swings

      Are CA25 and NY16 anomalies ?

    • dhlii permalink
      July 4, 2020 5:44 pm

      Are the people celebrating without masks and without social distancing
      being forced to do so ?

      Isn’t everyone who does not wish to participlate free to stay home and watch ?

      Aren’t you once again demanding that the entire nation follow YOUR demands ?

  48. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 3:30 am

    I read a recent article that Twitter is purging purportedly offensive language.

    After reviewing this further. it turns out that Twitter is actually trying to police language use in its internal software development documenation.

    The PC police are purging technical terms.

    As one example in software there are many types of software where the interations between modules or the modules themselves are labeled “master” and “slave”.

    This is a term of art in programming. Nor is the “master” “slave” language unique to computer software, it is common throughout engineering. Cars have master cylinders in their brake systems and slaves.

    Outside the domain of human interactions “master/slave” is an accurate way of describing a control relationship between inanimate components.

    There is no “free will” involved, so there are no moral issues.

    But Twitter is purging these triggering terms from their software documentation.

    The end result being that the documentation is less clear.

  49. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 5, 2020 9:02 am

    Two different universes. Unfortunately, regarding things that are life and death important.

    I would rather than the universe I am living in were wrong.

    There is no point in arguing. We will wait and we will see.

    • July 5, 2020 9:42 am

      “We will wait and we will see.”

      Exactly. And, no matter what happens, we will probably disagree on much of it. For example, I have taken, and still do take, the statistics on c19 very seriously. And, so do you.

      I think that we have been, and are being. subjected to a massive bait-and-switch. More than one, in fact.. We were originally told that we had to “flatten the curve” in order to save our medical and hospital system from being overwhelmed, the way Italy’s was. So it was 15 days, then 30 days, then indefinitely, based on what your governor said, but maybe until a vaccine is discovered. And we know that that may be never. At the very least, it would be long enough to permanently crash our economy.

      Another one is this : For weeks , all we heard was “This virus is much worse than any other that we ever experienced because it’s so much more deadly than the the others and so easy to catch that you could get it from not washing down your groceries.” The death rate from covid is going to be 10 times that of the flu.” Well, now that testing has been ramped up, and, as a result of more testings/more positves, the death rate is turning out to be….about the same as the flu.

      Since we are in separate universes, I’m curious as to how you see these things, Roby. I know you must disagree, and I genuinely want to understand this through your prism. How long should states remain shut down? Should we be tederally mandated to wear masks in public, regardless of where we live? Why and for how long? (I’m not one of those people who refuses to wear a mask, but I understand that ,while masks may help,, but don’t prevent).

      Anyway, hope everyone had a happy 4th!

      • July 5, 2020 12:22 pm

        Priscilla, one thing I would like to see is a federal requirement that any state /county receiving federal covid funds of any kind are required to report recovered cases. Right jow, in many, if not most, sites reporting cases, we have 2.6M , or whatever the last count was, active cases. If you get this virus, you are permantly ill unless you die.

        In my county, they report recovered cases. We have had 3,000+cases since this pandemic started. Of those, 2000+ have recovered, meaning in a county of 380,000, less than 1% have had a known case and less that 3/10th percent has an active case.

        Looking at any site that does report active cases, they report over 50 days of cases as being active while the actual recovery time is somewhere around 17. Instead of 1.5M active cases spreading germs, it is closer to 700K.

        The importance of this is fear and public policy. If you have 10,000 cases in a county, it is easier to restrict businesses and personal activities using 10,000 instead of 3,000 active cases.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 5, 2020 4:46 pm

        Ron,

        Everyone who does not die ultimately recovers.
        Getting recovery data correct is just a statistical excercise.

        We already know that between 90% and 95% of all cases are never reported.
        All of those recover too.

        One of the problems with dealing with Robby and the media and the left, is that their objective is to foment panic.

        The virus is going to follow a logistical curve PERIOD. That is the nature of epidemics.

        If the data does not show a logistical curve – that is either an artifact of policy changes that have actual effect, or of data collection.

        Those countries that went through this earliest – show a logistical curve.
        Those that had uniform testing start to finish show a logistical curve.
        Those who ramped up testing over time show a long tail.

        But the behavior of the virus is not different in italy than the US.

        There was be some curve distortions in the US as a result of the size of the country and the widely varied population density.

        Highly dense places like NYC will have sharp rising and falling curves.
        While less dense places will have flatter curves.

        Places where policy was consistent from the start will have clear logistical curves.
        Places that locked down and then opened up may show small spikes shortly after opening up.

        But pretty much everywhere the virus will spread until it can spread no more – until it has reached about 80% of the people who are not immune.

        All the precautions we take, mask wearing, self isolation are all just efforts to get ourselves into that 20% that is not immune and does not get infected.

        If we were going to go with an actual “greatest good” policy – we would isolate the most likely to die and require the rest to NOT isolate and NOT mask to burn this out as fast as possible among the people least vulnerable.

        The optimaly “herd immunity” pattern is the people who are not going to die get infected, to protect those who might die.

        The WORST pattern is to infect the most vulnerable while protecting children and others who are least effected.

      • July 5, 2020 5:49 pm

        Dave, Good Grief, I am not that stupid. I know you either die or recover.

        But what is more scary to report? What is more detrimental to a Trump administration.
        1. Today we have 2.6M confirmed cases of Covid 19
        or,
        2. Today we have 700,000 active cases if Covid 19, and 1.7M individuals have recovered.

        I relate this to the easily brainwashed voters that you keep defending. You believe everyone can see through media manipulation. I have much less confidence and that is based on how easily people are manipulated around the world by many different governments.

        America is not immune to studidity. The only cure for stupidity is death. You can educate ignorance.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 5, 2020 9:07 pm

        “But what is more scary to report?”
        Don’t care. I care about what is more accurate.
        Death rates are the most accurate information we have.
        Hospitalizations are nearly as accurate.

        Neither of these are perfect, but they are far better than testing data which is only useful as a measure if it is done consistently using the same standards at the same rates over long periods.

        Testing is obviously useful to identify infected people, But that is NOT a metric, It tells us that specific people are infected. It does not tell us the proportion of the population infected.

        Regardless I do not care whether Data is scary, or negatively impacts Trump.

        I care if it is meaningful.

        To make test results meaningful you would have to scale them.

        “What is more detrimental to a Trump administration.”
        Don’t care.

        1. Today we have 2.6M confirmed cases of Covid 19
        We probably have 24-54M cases

        I prefer a number with a high margin of error, but a high probability of accuracy,
        To a number that is precise but totally inaccurate.

        “2. Today we have 700,000 active cases if Covid 19, and 1.7M individuals have recovered.”
        Neither number is meaningfully accurate.
        It is likely at the moment that we have maybe 2M active cases and possible 52M people who have recovered.

        “I relate this to the easily brainwashed voters that you keep defending.”
        Oddly as fixated as most of us are on the numbers, at the same time we somewhat understand their lack of meaning.

        Even if governments were not backing down on the lockdown – people are.
        People are wiser than government.

        I have said this is close to burning out.
        I think that is demonstrable even with the higher numbers that are coming with higher testing.

        But another things is also happening – and that is more important politically.

        PEOPLE INCREASINGLY DON”T CARE.

        Even if C19 does not burn out by Nov (or Aug). If voters have moved on, it will not effect the election.

        The same will be true of the Floyd protests. All these “crisises” will pass.

        If however the increase in crime is sustained which is likely THAT will be a factor in the election.

        “You believe everyone can see through media manipulation. I have much less confidence and that is based on how easily people are manipulated around the world by many different governments.”

        No, I beleive that given enough time people get past it.

        Absolutely the media can hype people up for a while, But they can not sustain outrage over one thing very long – expecially a small thing.

        I would also note that constant outrage from the media burns people out.

        The recent sequence of events has actually been BAD for democrats.

        Carter was obliterated by Reagan because the Iran Embassy hostages were a millstone for the entire election. He could not escape them.

        C19 will die on its own, or people will adjust – or both. Regardless it will not drive outrage forever.

        BLM and these protests have more leggs than a mass shooting – but not MUCH more leggs.
        In a month or two what people will remember is how scared they were of the rioting.

        If as appears true crime rates increase and stay high – that will last to the election.

        Some things are less easy for me to predict.

        It appears that toppling and defacing monuments pissed alot of people off.
        More than I would have expected.

        “America is not immune to studidity. The only cure for stupidity is death. You can educate ignorance.”

        You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
        Abraham Lincoln,

        The left and the media have burned their credibility.

        Part of the way you can tell is the attacks on trump are increasingly ridiculous.

      • July 5, 2020 9:19 pm

        Dave “Don’t care. I care about what is more accurate.”

        Yes I know, its all about you. What you want, what you think.

        But guess what. I was not addressing what you wanted or what you thought. And Individual dont care that you want accurate information because most voters dont care. They listen and believe the brainwashing bull crap that you ignore. If I am right Biden is a shoe in. If your right, Trump wins.

        I was addressing the way news and agencies report facts that are manipulated to create a unfavorable atmosphere and try to scare people.

        When Abe Lincoln said what he said, those that voted were not as gullible as our social media sniqflake today.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 6, 2020 2:47 am

        Dave “Don’t care. I care about what is more accurate.”

        “Yes I know, its all about you. What you want, what you think.”
        How is that about me ? You can not make either cases or recoveries accurate.
        That has nothing to do with me.

        “But guess what. I was not addressing what you wanted or what you thought.”
        Again not about me.
        We can not make wise decisions with meaningless information.

        “And Individual dont care that you want accurate information because most voters dont care. They listen and believe the brainwashing bull crap that you ignore. If I am right Biden is a shoe in. If your right, Trump wins.”

        I think voters are sharper than you do.
        Further I think that is already self evident.
        We are opening up. With our without governments permission.
        It is happening because more and more people do not beleive the very things you are concerned that they do.

        “I was addressing the way news and agencies report facts that are manipulated to create a unfavorable atmosphere and try to scare people.”

        They have been doing that for some time. They get worse and worse over time.
        They have also burned their credibility with large portions of the people.

        Credibility and integrity are nearly impossible to get back.

        You already clearly do not trust the media. Why do you think you are alone ?

        “When Abe Lincoln said what he said, those that voted were not as gullible as our social media sniqflake today.”

        If anything they were more gullible then.

        What I find the most interesting is that to a large extent it is the better educated whites who are the most gullible.

        I have said that I expect Trump to win. In fact I expect it to be a landslide.
        I particularly expect it because of the ratcheting up levels of desperation of the left.

        I am not perfect at predicting. In fact I am not good at reading other people at all.
        I would have expected that with the whoppers that have been told by the left and the media in the past year, that more people would have seen the lies by now.

        But I think the numbers are sufficient – and growing.
        Because the more disparate the left gets the less appealing they become.

        But win or lose, there will be someone following Trump.

        The pendulum is swinging away from the left – it is not the polls that tell you that – it is the desperation.

        I am not worried about the media – the people who still buy what they are selling are going to vote for wing nuts if they vote at all.

        Sometimes I worry about the censorship of social media – but honestly I think it is self defeating. Every time they shut somebody down, every time they tag a trump video, they make themselves look more stupid and partisan.

        My big concern is how does the left react when Trump wins.
        The under 30 crowd may not vote, but they burn things down.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 5, 2020 9:26 pm

        I know that you do not agree – but I am expecting that barring another major unpredicatable disaster – something like a SWAT team raids a black kindergarten and kills 20 black kids,
        That Trump is not only winning in Nov. but winning big.

        Current polling in Swing states is in some instance about the same as the day before the election in 2016.

        It is irrelevant if the entirety of NYC votes for Biden. If the national numbers are correct, and I do not think they are, they only have meaning in a popular vote election.

        Tucker Carlson is the highest rated Cable news show EVER – and has been for almost a year. I think Fox has 7 of the top 10 slots.

        That candice owens video got 98M views.

        The GOP has won two special elections COMMANDINGLY in districts they lost in 2018.

        The most accurate polster for 2016 is saying Trump’s swing state polling right now is better than election day 2016.
        He also says he thinks the number of “secret” trump voters – people who will not tell pollsters or their friends is DOUBLE that of 2016.

        The very same people we saw out rioting – are not going to vote in 2020.
        This age group riots, they do not vote.

        The enthusiasm of Trump voters is incredibly high.
        Trump can absolutely count on his base.

        More than 50% of Biden voters want someone else.
        Do you think Biden can count on those votes ?

        You note correctly that white suburban women are a key group.

        They are the biggest target for BLM and the left. The leftist backlash against white liberal women is huge.

        Destroying monuments was a mistake.
        making people kneel was also a mistake.

        Pissing off police was a mistake – that is millions of guaranteed votes for Trump.

        If crime rises – that will hurt BLM and democrats.
        The police reforms that suburban women will want watching rising crime is MORE cops.

        Regardless, you can not demand gun control and demand defunding the police at the same time. People grasp that crime, anarchy and chaos are that way.

        All the predictable trends between now an the election run Trump;s way.

        I am more concerned about AFTER the election.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 5, 2020 9:40 pm

      • dhlii permalink
        July 5, 2020 5:34 pm

        At this time there are only two metrics that are reliable over time.

        Deaths, and hospitalizations.

        It is probable that the deaths are inflated – but the inflation is likely constant over time.
        So data about deaths over time shows trends accurately.

        The next critical data we need is not recoveries, it is antibody tests.
        What portion of the population has been infected already.

        But finally I would note to all of us – myself and Robby included.

        All the data in the world is just to measure what the virus is doing.

        It is still doing what it is doing – regardless of our measures.

        Testing does not increase or decrease C19 cases,
        The cases will increase or decrease based on the frequency with which infected people contact people who are not immune or resistant.
        Not based on the testing.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 5, 2020 4:26 pm

        “Exactly. And, no matter what happens, we will probably disagree on much of it.”

        This is possibly the most disturbing aspect – not merely of C19 – but of most every disagreement.

        Even when everything is over and the results should be painfully obvious, it is so often impossible to see what is self evident.

        There should be zero doubt that there is no “systemic racism” – not in policing, not in US society. The statistics have shown declines in all negative race related problems and improvements in all positives for my entire lifetime.

        It is not hyperbole when I say we live in the least racist moment in the least racist country in the world. it is an absolute fact.

        And yet we are in the midst or a race riot and efforts to eradicate the past.

        It could be months before we see the last C19 case. But only the willfully blind refuse to see that we are well past the peak. Deaths have dropped dramatically from the peak, as have hospitalizations.

        In most every country in the world that C19 has burned out – it has taken about 3 months.
        The US will likely take longer – because it is larger, and because of the lockdown.
        but within each state the duration will still be about 3 months.

        In any place that C19 has diminished – there are only two possibilities.

        That place has acheived herd immunity and will not see a significant increase until that immunity recedes,

        OR some magical intervention has driven C19 away and that nation will remain vulnerable to a “2nd wave” so long as C19 exists in the world.

        There is not a 3rd choice.

        For those places that have acheived “herd immunity” there will be no signicant “2nd wave” until that immunity diminishes. We do not know how long immunity lasts – but there are no indications of it weakening anywhere yet.

        These things are facts.

        But we can accept that even after this is over – somehow the media will paint Cuomo who has had the worst track record as a hero and Trump as a villian.

        When the fact is nothing government has done has had any positive effect.

        That is ALREADY self evident.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 5, 2020 4:31 pm

        It appears that C19 is about as fatal as the Flu in 1967.
        It is a tiny fraction as bad as the 1918 Flu.

        It is maybe twice as bad as the normal yearly Flu

        And all that presumes that we do not go back and normalize C19 deaths to the same medical standards used for the Flu.

        Currently we are counting all deaths that occur in people who are C19 positive as C19 deaths. We do NOT do that with the Flu or pneumonia, or colds, when there is an underlying fatal condition.

        I can no longer get the CDC overal mortality to date data, but as of the begining of June US deaths were only about 20K higher than same time in 2019.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 5, 2020 3:38 pm

      “Two different universes. ”

      You constantly engage in these word games. This is at the core of my attack on you STEM background.

      The core assumption of all science is that reality is not completely random. That if Gravity pulls things to the earth today that tomorow it will not toss them into space.
      That if we can establish that some patterns are immutable, that we can trust them tomorrow.

      The second core assumption is that reality is logically consistent.
      That the laws of the universe do not contradict each other.

      Yet, you constantly reject this. You pretend there are multiple realities, or that your fear overrides logic.

      “Unfortunately, regarding things that are life and death important.”
      All the more reason to fullow the actual laws of mathematics and science, rather than making up new ones for the moment.

      “I would rather than the universe I am living in were wrong.”
      I do not care what mental universe you live in. There is only one actual universe that we live in.

      “There is no point in arguing. We will wait and we will see.”
      We already have.

      And this is another critical point of disagreement.

      Even where we do not have absolutes – we do have patterns of behavior and probabilities.
      That are based on centuries of past experience and data.

      One of the issues from start to finish with C19 is that we have reacted, we have followed policies that make assumptions that C19 is radically different – without real evidence that it is.

      The actual science known from the start is that lockdowns etc. will not alter the total number of infections – it will not alter the “area under the curve”, that lockdowns are a simple tradeoff – stretch the duration out while lowering the peak “flatten the curve” on the assumption that if the healthcare system is not over taxed fewer people will die.
      There is no reduction in total infections, there is also no reduction in people who will die without treatment. There is just the hope that more people will be treated successfully and not die.

      Well thus far we have little in the way of effective treatment – and what little we have has not been used broadly. HCQ Might reduce deaths by 20%, certain steriods MIGHT reduce death by 20%, Remedsivir might reduce deaths by 50%. But none of these are being widely used.

      It is highly unlikely that many people are living who would have died otherwise.

      This inherently means that with rare exceptions – such as returning recovering C19 patients into nursing homes, that any claims that some policy would save lives or has cost lives is garbage.

      There are not two different legitimate points of view – there is what we can predict based on know probabilities and historic behavior – and there is magic.

      If we make predictions and choose policies based on the know behavior or respiratory viruses, we will make a few mistakes. C19 is not EXACTLY like every other respiratory virus.
      But it is also not radically different.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 5, 2020 3:50 pm

      I see the same thing from you with most everything – and that reaction is what makes me question your STEM education.

      It is nearly always true in the real world with issues that involve humans that we have lots and lots of data, and that things are complicated enough and that there are enough variables that there are not perfectly clear 100% consistent patterns.

      That is ALWAYS true when there are multiple independent variables, and we can not do controlled experiments.

      That is precisely the reason that we have statistics – to sort out the noise and the false signals from the valid data.

      Put more simply there will nearly always be some pattern in data to support any claim that you wish to make if your examination of the data is shallow.

      Men are arrested 10 times more than women.
      Should we conclude that the police discriminate against men ?

      But that is exactly what you and those on the left do all the time – and this is part of my critique of Ron’s “common sense” – because we can always find shallow patterns to prove anything.

      There are very few properly regressed statistics on policing that show evidence of actual racial bias on the part of police.

      Systemic racism requires not merely a few signals of racism, but very few signals that do NOT show racism.

      Any logical person would expect that greater testing for a disease that we miss 19 times out of 20 will produce more hits.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 5, 2020 3:53 pm

      If this is about life and death as you say – then the only metric that matters is death.

      Frankly, that has always been true.

      All of us would love to eradicate C19 (or the flu), but if neither were ever fatal, we would direct few resources to doing so.

      We would not spend $5T to stop a disease that cost us a few billion in lost time.

  50. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 5:29 pm

    I was watching a Tim Pool video where he noted that the Candace Owen’s “I do not support George Floyd” Video received 98M views.

    I can not substantiate that – though Pool is generally reliable.

    I have found the video in various places – it keeps getting taken down so it gets reposted on other accounts.

    The largest number of views i have seen in a single location is 7.7M, But I have seen several different places in Youtube where it was 2m plus views.

    How is it we are not hearing about a back women speaking intelligently on Floyd that 1/3 of america has viewed ?

    Why is she not on every single media outlet ?

  51. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 9:47 pm

    There are 10M people in Hong Kong I would welcome today.

    Can we send New Yorkers to HK and bring them here ?

  52. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 9:50 pm

  53. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 9:50 pm

  54. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 9:51 pm

  55. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 10:06 pm

  56. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 10:29 pm

  57. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 10:39 pm

  58. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 10:41 pm

  59. dhlii permalink
    July 5, 2020 10:47 pm

  60. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 3:19 am

    Some statistics on what Blacks think of the police.

    Some are older, but some are right AFTER the floyd killing.

    https://www.city-journal.org/hearing-what-black-voices-really-say-about-police

  61. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 3:31 am

    Why Trump will win.

  62. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 3:36 am

  63. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 3:46 am

  64. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 3:52 am

  65. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 3:56 am

  66. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 4:05 am

  67. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 4:07 am

    Brutal but true

  68. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 4:09 am

    New study indicates that vituous victim signaling correlates to sociopathy

    https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2020-46166-001

  69. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 4:12 am

    Many people believe that global population growth leads to greater poverty and more famines, but evidence suggests otherwise. Between 1960 and 2016, the world’s population increased by 145 percent. Over the same time period, real average annual per capita income in the world rose by 183 percent.

    https://humanprogress.org/article.php?p=1147

  70. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 4:20 am

  71. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 4:29 am

  72. July 6, 2020 8:55 am

    77 more Black People shot in Chicago this weekend. 14 killed including a 7 year old & a 14 year old. NewYork, which disbanded anti-crime police units, saw 56 shootings, 9 dead. Cleveland- 20 shot, 3 dead. DC- 11 year old shot. An 8 year old shot in Atlanta. BLM and Antifa ruling the streets, as police are told to stand down.

    How can anyone support this? Yet, the Democrat Party does. It’s just collateral damage in their current power quest.

    Has nothing to do with George Floyd, whose memory has been tossed aside by the mob.

    • July 6, 2020 9:17 am

      Meanwhile, covid deaths down 93% from the peak. Deaths have dropped steadlily for over 2 months.

    • July 6, 2020 10:26 am

      Be careful! The left will blame the guns, not criminals or reduced policing.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 6, 2020 11:54 am

        They already are.

        I know you do not get this – but voters are not that stupid.

        They know what has changed.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 6, 2020 11:52 am

      According to a poll I linked AFTER the Floyd killing, 56% of blacks want MORE police.

      Even more surprising blacks want MORE police in squad cars diconnected from and flying in from outside of the community rather than cops on the beat in their neighborhoods if it means a faster response when they call 911.

      They want MORE arrests of drug dealers.
      They want MORE arrests of law breakers in their neighborhoods.

  73. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 12:01 pm

    The american revolution did NOT involve rioting, arson and looting

    https://jonathanturley.org/2020/07/06/the-myth-of-the-boston-tea-party/

  74. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 12:27 pm

    There has been lots of controversy brewing over Trump’s 4th of July speech.
    As there is over everything Trump says.

    My suggestion is read/listen to it and then decide if you beleive the criticism is truthful.

    I did. I thought it was a good speech. But not a great one.

    The most disturbing part for me was that Trump made alot of promises, that he can not keep.
    That he can not keep if re-elected, and certainly not if he loses.

    He made promises that should not be necescary – that this country would never be socialist, that it would always be free, that we would not lose our history.

    Some painted the speech as “divisive” – to an extent it was.
    If you beleive you are entitled to transform the US into a marxist dystopia – Trump made it clear you are NOT. Trump drew a line and alienated those on the left of that line.
    But if you were alienated by Trump’s speech – you are no american – and you do not want to be, so why are you disturbed ?

    It is divisive to say this country will never be socialist.
    It is divisive to say this country will always have free speech.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/senator-duckworth-and-most-of-the-press-are-lying-about-trumps-speech/

  75. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 12:44 pm

    While the author of this is correct – he misses the most important point which likely will be pounded in to voters over the next 4 months.

    Democrats rejected Sanders. They chose the moderate centrist democrat. They voted to move the democratic party the right of Obama.

    But what they got was Sanders is Biden cloths.

    We have a version of Nixon/McGovern or Reagan/Mondale.

    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/07/the-radical-joe-biden.php

  76. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 1:14 pm

    The real message is that actual racist incidents are so rare today that we need hoaxes to gin up claims of racism

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/07/06/bubba-wallace-and-the-wave-of-dubious-hate/

  77. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 11:29 pm

    Just incase you are unclear, she made video’s in which she said that people who say “all lives matter” should be stabbed, and as a result her employer fired her, and now she is upset ?

  78. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 11:39 pm

  79. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 11:47 pm

    I listened to it – mostly because it was so thoroughly panned.
    I do not think it was a great speech.
    But it was a good speech.

    It was only dark and divisive if you are a communist, socialist or beleive the US is irredeemable evil.

  80. dhlii permalink
    July 6, 2020 11:48 pm

  81. dhlii permalink
    July 7, 2020 12:34 am

    Van Jones – not even slightly conservative also purportedly worked with Trump to craft the Police reform bill that Democrats tanked.

  82. dhlii permalink
    July 7, 2020 12:49 am

    The problem with college educated leftists today

    • July 7, 2020 2:04 am

      So someone on the Twit says it and you agree so much that you share it. I say it and you go out of your way to defend the stupidity of voters that just believe what they hear and never question. And yes, I relate learning something from the media and social media the same as college and schools. You learn constantly.

      Guess I will start commenting on twitter..

      • dhlii permalink
        July 7, 2020 5:42 am

        No just “Someone on the Twit”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman

        Are some voters stupid ? Certainly.
        In any group some members are stupid.

        The quote is an explanation for the disparity in stupidity between college educated voters and those who are not, with the magnitude of stupidity going counter intuitively.

        This parallel’s Naseem Talib’s IYI – Intellectual Yet Idiot.

        I strongly suspect it has something to do with another premise of Talib.

        That the trustworthyness of an oppinion is proportionate to the amount of “Skin in the game”.

        The more educated we get the more many of us are divorced from the consequences of our actions, and the worse decisions we make.
        Just to be clear – that is not universally true – those in STEM – particularly those who are accountable in STEM are likely to make better decsions.

  83. July 7, 2020 9:01 am

    Funny, how Senator Tim Scott is saying and doing things that make so much sense, but the Democrats just ignore him.

    I can’t imaginge why….

    “I also think the country is better off trying to create the future than reframe the past,” Scott said. “We spend almost too much time in the rearview mirror and not enough time in the windshield. It’s hard not to get in an accident when all your focus is on yesterday. For us to reframe the past doesn’t benefit almost anyone. So, if we want to reframe the past, however, put up more statues. Put up a statue not just Martin Luther King Jr. What about Rosa Parks? Or Booker T. Washington? Washington Carver? There’s a lot of folks that we can celebrate. But, tearing something down does not necessarily build you up,

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/senator-scott-the-country-is-better-off-trying-to-create-the-future-than-reframe-the-past

    • dhlii permalink
      July 7, 2020 2:28 pm

      Even French Pres. Marcon got it better.

      He told people This is our past. Good, evil, Both, it is what it is. We are not tearing it down.

      Removing the confederate flag from State flag’s is more than reasonable – that never should have happened. Whatever you think about the confederacy – they were still a rebellion – actual treason, the state should not be celebrating that.

      As to monuments and statues: They are not inherently forever. But they are also not subject to removal at the whim of vandals.

      That is actually important. It is a reflection of how “the protestors” think.

      There have been comments about the fact that BLM organizers are NOT reflective of the BLM marchers (who are 60% white).

      But those tearing down the statues ARE reflective of those protesting.

      And this demonstrates they are anarchists – lawless. They are not petitioning government to remove statues, they are tearing them down themselves.

      One of the things I found most evident of their cluelessness was that they tore down the statue of Fredrick Douglas erected in the city where he gave his famous 4th of july from the eyes of a slave speech

  84. July 8, 2020 10:40 am

    This is a very interesting take on the coronavirus. Not particularly new, since we have all at some point, commented on the fact that it’s the immune system response, not the virus that kills.

    But this article is by a doctor who analyzes the data and the treatment modalities, and reaches the conclusion that antivirals, such as the very expensive remdesivir are less effective at preventing deaths as antiinflammatories such as HCQ, dexamethasone, and a new treatment, budesonide, a steroid that is inhaled into the lungs.
    https://noqreport.com/2020/07/07/covid-19-never-killed-anybody/

    One wonders why there has been such a resistance to accepting HCQ’s effectiveness, and a push to crown remdesivir as the treatment of choice…

    • July 8, 2020 1:19 pm

      First, this is the problem when a medical issue has become politicalized. Everyone wants to make comments in the media, instead of limiting those comments within the edical publications like 99% of all illness. And anyone who has read reliable information on protection knows facemask other than N95’s dont protect the wearer, they limit the wearers spit, snot and vapors to a very small space because the cloth restricts the force behind the volume of particles in exhaled air. It helps protect those around the wearer.

      As for the drug question, as a former healthcare finace professional, the reason HCQ, steroids and other drugs like those are being discounted by “experts” is due to stockholders. Remdesvir cost government $2,200 (+-) and self pay and commercial insurance $3,200(+-).for a drug that cost $9.32 to manufacture a 10 day treatment. HCQ has had an average cost of $10.00 for the total treatment, and it is made by multiple companies. For stockholders return, $3200 for one company is much better than $10 spread over multiple companies.

      And no, not all doctors are like the one that wrote this article. He is retired, trained when docs made their own decisions. Today, docs use the latest and greatest and if insurance pays, the hospitals have that on their clinical treatment protocols doctors have to follow without justifing varying from protocols.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 8, 2020 3:26 pm

        All facemasks are better at protecting others from you, than you from others.

        All facemasks protect you from others.

        All facemasks are NOT equal.

        Even n95 masks have too large a filter to be completely effective against C19.

        Even a bandana will trap some viruses from reaching you.

        Further masks do not need to be 100% effective.

        All they need to do is diminish the viral load you get.

        We already know that if you are exposed to a lower load, that you are less likely to get C19 and more likely to get a weaker case if you do get it.

        But there is a different problem with ALL PPE.

        C19 is not stopping until herd immunity is reached. PERIOD.

        The spread will slow as we approach herd immunity.
        The percent of people necescary to reach herd immunity may be lower based on population density – and maybe even social distancing measures,

        Regardless all PPE serves a single purpose – to increase your personal odds of being part of the small percentage of people who are not naturally immune, and do not get C19 before herd immunity is achieved.

        This means all our polices have been WRONG.
        We should have sent children to school from day one.
        We should have had everyone under 45 who has no other serious health complications at work from day one.
        We NEVER should have locked down.

        We should have focused on protecting those at the greatest risk.

        Covid19 is likely to be viewed as an example of how to do everything totally wrong in the future.

      • July 8, 2020 3:38 pm

        Please note the doctors comment in the article Priscilla shared about masks. That is what I was addressing.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 8, 2020 4:00 pm

        HCQ was suspected to be of value from near the start. It should have been used by Millions.

        Not because it was KNOWN effective, but merely because it MIGHT work, and it was dirt cheap and readily available.

        Trump was correct to tout its possible benefits, and those attacking him for doing so are evil.

        Trump would have been correct EVEN if it turned out that HCQ did not work so long as it passed the “first do no harm” principle.

        The desire to attack Trump is so great that the left and the media completely lose their grip on sanity.

        Absolutely Trump occasionally says some things I wish he did not.
        Though there is a game being played here as he rarely says the things we are told he says.

        Trump is a racist, homophibic, transphobic, bigot – because he says things that the far left has decided are racist, homophobic, ….

        Listen to the Mt. Rushmore speech. It is easy to see why the left considers it divisive.

        Trump attacked those who want to destroy our history.
        He attacked those who reject the proposition that this country is exceptional.
        He attacked those who want a revolution, who want to bun and loot, and destory.
        He attacked those who think we can do without police.
        He attacked socialism.
        He attacked the enemies of individual liberty.

        That is the part of his speech that is “dark and divisive”

        He did not defend dead confederate generals.

        He did defend Washinton, Jefferson. Lincoln, and Theodore Roosevelt.
        The presidents on Mt. Rushmore.

        Absolutely that speech is “dark and divisive” – if you are on the far left.

        I do not think the speech was a great speech.
        It was not the gettysburg address,

        But it was a good speech appropriate for the occasions.

        But it was not the speech that spoke to me – it was the response to the speech.

        I am told that Trump is “desparate” – and yet, he continues to appear calm and continuing much as he has in the past.

        But the left, the media, democrats become increasingly unhinged.

        I expect lunatic remarks by Rep. Omar. I did not from Sen. Duckworth.

        What I see and hear in the press everyday makes me more certain all the time that it is democrats who are increasingly desperate.

        Regardless, back to your point.

        EVERYTHING today is politicized.

        If Trump says it – it must be wrong. It must be attacked, It must be racist.

        I do not agree with everything Trump says and does.

        But he is the best of the last 3 presidents. Possibly the best since Reagan.

        I have repeatedly addressed trust, and integrity here.

        All of us right, left, …. can TRUST that Trump will keep or try to keep his campaign promises.

        I do not agree with all of those – but I can live with his campaign promises.

        I know where we have common ground and where I can work to thwart him.

        I know if he is elected what I will get in foreign and domestic policy,

        Conversely if Biden is elected – I have to pray that he will NOT try to do what he promises.

        That is a somewhat easy prayer – as Trump is the first president in my lifetime, possibly ever to take campaign promises seriously.

        I think Bolton nailed it when he said all Trump decisions were about getting re-elected.

        Absolutely – by doing what he promised to do.

        Why is that wrong ?

        While I might agree that no president should treat campaign promises as biblical.
        At the same time – absent a compelling reason to do otherwise – he should do what he promised.

        Trump’s judicial appointments are as promised.
        His foriegn policy – accross the board is “as promised” – we have reveresed our position on Iran. While Trump has returned Iran to its pariah status, he has NOT gone to war with Iran.

        He has reversed the Obama nonsense in asia.

        Obama and Clinton fawned over TPP as the means to counter China.

        At the start of Trump’s term China was surrounded by vasal states kow towing to her.
        Today China is surrounded by enemies.

        Almost the entirety of Asia is united with the US in confronting China.

        TPP did not accomplish that. Obama did not. Trump did.

        China under Xi has gone in the wrong direction.
        There is a very real possibility that will fail, and China will return to its slow march to freedom sooner rather than later.

        Trump has deregulated like no president ever. Far more than I expected.

        He has also continued to increase employment – far past levels that were thought impossible.
        C19 has harmed both employment and the economy – but less that predicted, and the recovery appears to be dramatic.

        Worse for democrats – the harms of C19 have been far worse in blue states than red.

        The average Red State UI is 5.2%, that in blue states is 15+%.

        That alone explains the riots and unrest.

      • July 8, 2020 6:19 pm

        “Trump was correct to tout its possible benefits, and those attacking him for doing so are evil.”

        WRONG!

        Anyone in politics should keep their f’in mouth shut when it comes to possible treatments for any medical issue. If Obama had said anything about something going around in his first term as president, the Hannities, Breitbarts, Fox News and every other right wing news outlet would have gone after the “cure” because they wanted to make him a one term president also.

        Presidents should stick to politics and shut up about mefical treatment. His physician advisors with knowledge of medicine should answer the question.

        But then, we all know Trump knows 100% of everything from rocket science to sex.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 9, 2020 12:40 am

        “WRONG!

        Anyone in politics should keep their f’in mouth shut when it comes to possible treatments for any medical issue. If Obama had said anything about something going around in his first term as president, the Hannities, Breitbarts, Fox News and every other right wing news outlet would have gone after the “cure” because they wanted to make him a one term president also.

        Presidents should stick to politics and shut up about mefical treatment. His physician advisors with knowledge of medicine should answer the question.

        But then, we all know Trump knows 100% of everything from rocket science to sex.”

        WRONG!

        This is precisely what we expect out of our presidents.

        Trump did NOT tell people to inject bleach or to drink aquarium Cleaner.

        He did not offer medical advice.

        What he did was tell the people that progress was being made that there was hope.

        He did pretty much the same things that FDR and Churchill did during WWII

        And it is what we expect of the president.

        In fact it is their job to be upbeat and encouraging even in the darkest hours.

        The problem as always is not with what Trump said, but how the left and the media portrayed it.

        Worse still the media and the left likely have blood on their hands.

        The fight over HCQ left even doctors confused.
        Ultimately what never should have become political became Political.

        Trump did NOT say – see here is this miracle drug that I and republicans have wrought.

        He said that health experts had briefed him about HCQ and it might be a “game changer”.

        Churchill took Dunkirk which was a disasterous defeat for the British
        More than 100K men and all of their weapons heavy and light were left to be captured
        at a moment when neither the men nor the weapons were replaceable.

        And still he made the british proud of themselves even in defeat.

        So please tell me why the president is not allowed to offer hope during a pandemic ?

        I honestly do not know at this point whether HCQ in any combination with anything else is actually beneficial.

        But I do know that it is cheap and safe and that but for the 1:1000 people for whom there is a risk it should have been doled out like candy.

        A propholactic dose coast almost nothing.
        A treatment does cost pocket change.

        Absent real evidence that it was harmful we should have been doling this out like Candy.

        Why not ? If the risk is low and there is even a small possibility of a 20% reduction in ANYTHING – in risk of getting C19, in length of the disease, in severity, in mortality ?

        Sorry, Ron, the problem here is not Trump – it is the left and the media.

        And absolutely I would have expected the same of Obama under similar circumstances.

        I do not know if Hannity and Fox would have attacked him over HCQ.
        But they should not have.

        And BTW just about every Governor in the country was on TV doing the same thing.

        I am critical of some of their decisions.
        But not of their efforts to reassure people.

        For a while we had governors saying “we need ventalators” and Trump saying – “we have ventalators for you” – both Trump and many governors democrat and republican were patting each other on the back.

        For some reason this fell apart as it became clear – we had more ventalators than we needed and they did not do much good anyway.

        And if I were to be critical it would be that neither Trump nor the govenors gave credit where credit was due.

        It was not Government that made the pandemic better. It was not government that solve our problems – it was the free market.

        If we have a vaccine – by September, by January, by Ever – that will be the free market at work.

        I have N95 masks and filters out the whazzoo – Free markets.
        I can bath in hand sanitizer – Free markets.
        I have antiseptic wipes out the yingyang – Free markets.
        Whatever I want – right to my door – Free markets.

        Trump did not do that, Cuomo did not do that. Faucci did not do that.

        The markets did.

        Regardless, you have overly bought into this nonsensical Left wing nut position that Trump is uniquely different, that unlike any prior president he is not allowed to speak on subjects he is not blessedly expert.

        This is nonsense.

        Look, Trump does not speak to me. He speaks in the language of blue collar workers – and that is not me. I find his language inelegant.
        But he is not speaking to me. And frankly he should not be speaking to me.
        I am not the one who needs to hear him.

        When Trump was saying HCQ could be a “game changer” he was telling millions of people that had lost their jobs – that MAYBE they might get them back soon.

        He is doing similar cheerleading about the economy.

        But he is not an economist. He is no more qualified to speak about the future economy than about possible medical treatments.

        But he needs to say “we will get through this – we see the light at the end of the tunnel”

        It is important.

        The good news is that we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

        And If I am going to attack Trump it is not because of his C19 briefings, but because he was in some ways complicit in shutting down the economy. That was a mistake and I think he new better. This $2T stimulus was also a huge mistake and he was part of that.

        That is what I will be critical of.

        Not his encouraging musings over HCQ.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 9, 2020 12:42 am

        If we allowed “the experts” to guide the country and answer the questions through this – we would all be dying of starvation right now.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 8, 2020 3:14 pm

      No one will make money of any consequence from HCQ (or the steroids).

      Widespread use of HCQ would politically benefit Trump and we can not have that.

    • July 9, 2020 10:33 am

      Ron I agree that, in general, politicians shouldn’t be commenting on treatments, vaccines, etc.

      In the context of the Coronavirus Task Force briefing, however, I don’t think it was out of line for Trump to mention HCQ. There were doctors present that could have answered any questions about it, and it was already being used off-label as a treatment, and had been for come time in other countries, such as France. So, Dave’s point that Trump was attempting to inject something hopeful into the briefing seems about right to me.

      The Fear Machine that anti-Trump politicians and media have been driving since the beginning of this pandemic, has made it very difficult for anyone to get accurate information on anything. In a perfect world, a situation like this would transcend politics, and states would get important facts from the professionals in the president’s cabinet and task force, and we would get this information largely from the governors tasked with carrying out the response, according to federal guidelines.

      But, we are not living in a perfect world. Obviously.

  85. July 11, 2020 9:39 am

    A serious question:

    About half (65k of 136k) of all deaths so far have come from 5 states: NY, NJ, IL, MI and CT.

    What, in good faith, do you think Trump could’ve done to persuade those blue-state Govs to act sooner?

    • dhlii permalink
      July 11, 2020 8:19 pm

      I would love to attack those governors.
      But beyond the stupidity of sending recovering patients to Nursing homes – which was total idiocy, and arguably premeditated murder, the evidence and my argument has been that there is no government policy that has mattered.

      Blue state Governors are responsible for the negative effects of lockdowns, NOT C19.
      Trump and republicans and democrats are responsible for the multiple Trillions blown on stimulus.

      There is nothing that government could have done – beyond protect nursing homes that would have made a difference in the long run.

      • July 12, 2020 8:06 am

        How do you figure? Governors were given guidelines by the federal government, and, under the emergency powers acts of each state , they had broad authorities to act in the interests of the public health.

        Sure, it’s easy to say that Trump should have declared
        his own authority over the situation, and usurped the powers of the governors. Then what? Activated the national guard to pull people off the streets? Had federal agents dispatched to arrest people for going to a park with thir kids?

        There would have been widespread condemnation and declarations of Hitlerian behavior.

        And those declarations would have been largely correct. It’s the governors who are charged with the responsibility of acting in the interests of their states. The federal government is charged with providing guidelines, equipment from emergency supplies (which, unfortunately , was emptied by previous administrations), federal funds, if necessary, and ongoing communication.

        Of course it’s possible ~ easy, even ~ to blame Trump in retrospect for not declaring the entire country shut down, long before there was a single death, and with only a few infections. That’s Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest. Half of the people accusing him of acting too slowly, had previously demanded that he act even slower!

        And I’m not defending the totality of Trump’s response ~ in fact I think he was catfished into overreacting in some ways. But, I do think that, on the whole, his administration responded, and continues to respond, in a controlled and constitutional way. But nothing that this admin did or will do will ever be given credit.

        And protecting the nursing homes was a very clear responsiblity of the governors. And, blue state governors largely failed in that responsibilty, and have “blood on their hands”.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 12:17 am

        I have uniformly attack governors for action on that authority to lock things down.
        They cause lots of damage in doing so – but they did not make C19 any worse – or better.

        I can blame governors for tanking the economy – and all the harm that caused.

        I can not blame them for making C19 worse – they did not. They also did not make it better.

        I would love to be able to say – Red governors good, blue governors bad – and with respect to the economy and handling riots that is absolutely true. but with respect to C19 demographics and latititude, not government policies are the difference.

    • July 11, 2020 9:08 pm

      Priscilla, If one leans right or further, there is little a president could do.

      If you lean left or further, the federal government should have shut down all business nationwide, restricted all movement, quarenteened anyone that had been outside their city for 14 days, face mask required with large fines for uncovered face, closed all beaches, parks and trails, restricted access to nursing homes and hospitals, martial law to restrict access to any roads by car and created a new federal agency that controlled all access, movement and distribution of testing supplies and lab access.

      And if your in the middle you could care less one way or the other.

      What I would like to see is a study of NY and their results. They represent 13-14% of the total cases, while representing 23% of total deaths. And of these deaths, NY City represents 53% of the states cases, but 74% of the states deaths.

      One would not expect to find that significant a difference in percentages. Is it age, nursing homes, race, income level, etc that caused this 20% difference in deaths. Access to health care, physician treatment patterns, hospitalization or non hospitalized patients?

      The death percentages now can not be compared to earlier results state to state due to new meds, new treatments and the age of those getting ill. But the state of NY and NY City all happened at the same time and that is the study needed.

      But I dont think the virus is why Trump will lose, nor the reason Shumer will be majority leader. There are way too many that are totally turned off to Trump, the man. “Anything has to ge better that Trump” voters. He has a good day, then destroys the good with multiple self distruction bombs, no matter what the subject. If it were not the fact I have tuned out all news and just get tidbits, I would have Trump fatigue like so many others that just think Biden will disappear to the White House to be seen only during SOTU.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 12, 2020 1:27 am

        There are multiple issues and they are not left/right not unless the law and the facts do not matter

        What can the president do – very little. There is no general police power for the federal government. Pretty much everything the federal government does in health is at the borders, research, and recomendations. Drug approval falls under bad SCOTUS decisions on interstate commerce. Finally only borders is the domain of the president. Everything else the president can do is limited to what congress has authorized.

        It is highly unlikely that there would be much difference between Obama, Trump and Biden on C19. Trump reacted faster than Obama shutting down the boarders – but not fast enough.
        Biden claims he would have acted faster, but at the time he complained Trump was overreacting. Biden, Obama, Trump would have all SAID much the same things – though not in the same words. I have little doubt that Obama and Trump would have talked up HCQ,
        That is a no brainer. It would give people hope – just as Churchill managed to portray Dunkirk – a huge defeat as somehow a heroic victory. Some of the conservative press would have attacked Obama – though probably not in nearly the same way.

        The differences between them would not be so much what they did and said but HOW they said it. Trump is speaking to Blue Collar America. Obama and Biden the educated elite.
        On C19 this is the only consequential difference.

        Congress has very limited power to pass additional laws. Mostly they can just give the state money. Action still must be done by the states.

        I expect there would have been differences in what congress would have done with Obama/Biden as president. The unemployment money would have been the same. But unemployment would not have been expanded to GIG workers, and most aide to bussiness would have been replaced by aide to state governments.

        Obama/Biden would have spent less – if republicans had the ability to stop it.
        Because republicans do not like deficits – when democrats are in charge.

        The behavior of the states would have been much the same under Obama/Biden as Trump
        The constitution leaves public health issues in the hands of the states.

        There are differences between states – mostly as a matter of state law.

        In general – whether at the federal or state level the emergency powers of the executive SHOULD be seriously time limited. A president or governor can act unilaterally – based on legislation allowing them to do so – in an emergency. But they should ALWAYS be required to go back to state legislatures for approvals as soon as that is possible.
        But that is not uniformly the law.
        Existing federal legislation allowed Trump to fund the Wall, but Congress had the ability to override – but they had to ACT to do so. That is the wrong default. It does not matter whether we are talking the state or federal government.

        But the evidence – then and more so now, is that the government should have done very little. It could RECOMEND that people social distance and wear maskes but it should never have forced the issue.

        And we should not have killed the economy – or blown trillions to pretend to save it.

        As stimulus programs go. Trump’s stimulus is about the last bad possible. To a very large extent he has allowed people to figure out how to best spend the stimulus at the level of the individual – and not micromanaged it from the top.

        Everyone’s needs are different.

      • July 14, 2020 11:29 pm

        Ron, I agree with you on the that those on the left believe that a president should be an authoritarian ruler (as long as he’s imposing leftist policies). But it still infuriates me that we have a major political party that is well on its way to going completely in the tank with socialists and Marxists. I don’t give a rip how anyone feels about Trump personally ~ speaking for myself, I don’t presume to know him, or any other national politico, so I don’t judge him on his personal qualities. I agree with 80% of his policies, and that’s good enough for me.

        That said, I think that someone in his inner circle needs to get him focused on his campaign message. His Rose Garden speech today (I guess it was a speech) was pretty rambling and repetitive. He did a great job listing all of the extreme left policies that Biden now supports, but he also seemed less energetic and optimistic than usual. and I found myself getting a little bored.

        Of course, if Trump listened to anyone in his inner circle, he’d probably do a lot of things differently. My gut feeling is that he has lost some ground to Biden during the pandemic and the riots, but he’ll bounce back. On the other hand, Biden, who is supposedly likeable (I find him phony and creepy most of the time) is a weak candidate. Maybe not as weak as Hillary, but he does not inspire anyone, and he definitely comes off as cognitively challenged. If he’s not senile, he is putting on a great act.

        On another note, I was in NC this weekend, checking on house things. My first real summer visit. Oh, my lord, you are not kidding about the humidity!

      • July 15, 2020 1:16 am

        No one tells the emperor he wears no cloths. Anyone crosses Trump, they are fired. Happens to anyone that questions anything he does.

        July 15 to Aug 15 is the worst. Was at Ocean Isle last year, on the beach 90+ with 70% humidity. I stayed inside most of the days except morning and late afternoons. Hopefully this year will be more bearable.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 15, 2020 2:55 am

        Trump punches back twice as hard at those who attack him.

        But I do not have the sense that he fires people for holding different views.

        He has brought in a surprising variety of capable people – many of whom are not in full agreement with him.

        From what I see in the Trump administration you get fired for PUBLICLY disagreeing – or for leaking. Not for privately disagreeing.

        It is my understanding that there was a holy war between Mattis, McMasters and Trump over Afghanistan and Trump was angry as hell. But ultimately he capitulated and gave “the generals” a full year to turn afghanistan arround despite his personal instincts.

        They failed to do so, and now almost 4 years later we are leaving.

        That does not sound like Fires anyone who disagrees.

        McMasters and Mattis FAILED. Trump is famous for firing those of fail.
        I have no problem with that.

        I remain Disturbed about the firing of Sec. State Tillerson. I though he WAS doing as Trump expected – he was seriously streamlining State. I had no sense there was conflict.

        Trump appears to be getting allong much better with Pompeo. But he has bloated State again.

        Most of the rest of the firings make sense.
        Further we hired a person whose impramatur was “Your Fired”.

        Did you expect that people would not get fired ?

        Many people have left Trump amicably – Niki Haley, Rick Perry.
        Many like Devos and Carson have served a long time effectively.

  86. dhlii permalink
    July 12, 2020 1:45 am

    German and Swedish studies find higer levels of C19 immunity than from antibodies alone.

    The Swedes found that about 20% of the population has antibodies to C19, and another 20% has Tcell immunity – likely from prior Corona Virus Colds.

    The german study found that 81% of people who have NOT been infected by C19 appear to be immune. Probably as a result of prior Corona Virus Colds.

    This means between 40 and 80% of us may be naturally immune

    This correlates with modeling studies that concluded that 50% of us are immune and 30% of us are highly resistant to C19

    It is likely that none of us are 100% immune. But that about 80% of us are to some degree resistant and the degree of resistance varies.

    It is likely that some people wil get C19 from minor exposure and others require being exposed for hours to someone with a high viral load, while others are completely immune.

    https://reason.com/2020/07/01/covid-19-herd-immunity-is-much-closer-than-antibody-tests-suggest-say-2-new-studies/?itm_source=parsely-api

    • July 12, 2020 11:33 am

      Corona Virus theories and data studies are all like butt holes, and we all know what is said about them.!

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 12:22 am

        If you are are about to do something that is going to cause a vast assortment of societal harms. You had damn well better be sure that the benefits outweigh the harms.

        You say there are lots of Corona Virus theories – fine, you do not get to destroy society on the unproven hope your theory might work.

        Worse still we knew ahead of time that all this rot would atmost slow the virus down.

        Killing the same number of people over a longer time frame is NOT an improvement.

        And after the fact we have proven what we knew at the start.

  87. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 12, 2020 9:17 pm

    https://www.npr.org/2020/07/12/890030168/fresh-scrutiny-for-foxs-tucker-carlson-as-top-writer-quits-over-bigoted-posts

    Yep. This is the conservative universe of trump and his movement. Birds of a feather. Carlson is no better. Perhaps trump can make him surgeon general in his next term based on his medical expertise.

    Drain the swamp, ha, the conservative universe IS the swamp.

    • July 12, 2020 9:27 pm

      Hang in there Robby, only 193 more days of your agony, then we on the right of the spectrum can begin feeling your pain.

    • July 12, 2020 9:31 pm

      Only 193 more days of this pain Roby and then we on the right of the spectrum can begin feeling your pain you have felt since 2017.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 12, 2020 10:22 pm

        Well, 193 days plus vote counting, which will take what, a week? A month? and may well be as controversial as 2000.

        The pain will not have the flavor of trump and his personality cult followers, it will be general liberal hubris flavored, much like the pendulum swings back and forth between right and left that have gone on all my life.

        I do sympathize with you in advance, I am sure I will be shaking my head at a lot of the actions of the Dems. First of all, they will interpret their victory as huge voter love for their party rather than a victory based on rejection of the trump GOP disaster by the middle. Hubris will follow. The question will be whether the GOP will be too radioactive to make a comeback in 2022.

      • July 12, 2020 11:10 pm

        YES, and the win the I think is coming will be big enough that the democrats will make the Obama years look like a weak sibling. If Shumer does not get his super majority I have beliefs that he will go the way of Reid and change senate rules to eliminate any need for compromise just as Reid did with judges. This, in itself, will have major damaging impacts on this country in the future as just seeing the marginalization of opposing parties in California should warn us of things to come. Had it not been for Reids actions, Trump would never have been able to fill almost every open federal judge seat and by Dec 2020 most will be filled. His appointments averaging 49 years old and representing almost 30% of the total judgeships would never have occurred had a 60 vote majority senate vote been required. He has shaped the courts for years to come and democrats need to look at that when the look to change other legislative action to 51 votes. They might be happy until the next GOP senate becomes real, then paybacks are hell.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 1:23 am

        Ron,
        take some anti-depressants.

        Look arround you.

        Democrats are not ebulent – they are depressed. They are not celebrating, they are rioting, the loonatics are in control and even many sane democrats are behaving nuts.
        Democrats are busy purging each other.

        If as you claim there was actually a big blue wave in 2020 – which I highly doubt, you are correct – what comes will be worse than Obama – and as a result incredibly short lived.

        Obama’s election birthed the Tea Party. What do you think will happen if Biden moves left of Obama ?

        The pendulum is not swinging left – it is swinging right. What we are seeing is the panic and frenzy on the left as they are facing the prospect of even more loss of power.

      • July 13, 2020 11:06 am

        Dave, dont need meds. But your optomism that a Biden agenda will be short lived is Disneyland mentality. Fantasy.

        What people dislike about Trump is short lived.

        But Bidens healthcare, free college, environmental policy, taxes, unfair trade, immigration and military will not be short lived. Do you REALLY think once they create M4A under a democrat agenda that will offer things like transgender reassignment will be repealed the year the GOP takes control? Will free college be repealed? When has the GOP repealed any social program?

        You are constantly complaining about Medicare. Has the GOP ever changed anything with that to reduce coverage? Seems I remember changes in the early 00’s that they almost immediately repealed!

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 11:36 pm

        “But Bidens healthcare, free college, environmental policy, taxes, unfair trade, immigration and military will not be short lived. Do you REALLY think once they create M4A under a democrat agenda that will offer things like transgender reassignment will be repealed the year the GOP takes control? Will free college be repealed? When has the GOP repealed any social program?”

        Who is actually talking about those things ? If Biden talks about the things that Dems talked about during the primary – he is going down in flames.

        Trump just accused Biden of plagerizing his “buy american” plan – and he is right.

        Biden does appear to be tacking towards Trump policies. He has to. To win the election he must win the rust belt. But he is no longer trusted there.

        “You are constantly complaining about Medicare. Has the GOP ever changed anything with that to reduce coverage? Seems I remember changes in the early 00’s that they almost immediately repealed!”

        Did I say I was a republican ?

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 12:56 am

        Robby – whatever the outcome it will not be close.

        My biggest concern is this mail in voting craze.

        Even MIT noted that vote by mail is the easiest to corrupt,
        and a recent NJ election has 20% mail in ballot fraud.

        That is what will cause a mess in 2020.

        But if we have a real election done the normal way – this will not be a repeat of 2000.

        But if you beleive that is the cause – then you should join me in fixing what is broke in out elections. We failed to do that in 2000.

        No mail in voting. Absentee ballots must be done in person with ID before a notary.
        In person voting must be with ID.

        If the margin of victory in any election is smaller than the margin of counting error – have an automatic runnoff 2 weeks later.

        No recounts, no court battles.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 1:11 am

        The outcome you seem to think is likely is the worst possible for Dems.

        Until you end this PC nonsense. Until you cease accusing everyone you disagree with of being a racist and a hatefull hating hater – this country is going to be extremely bitterly divided.

        But those divisions are not even simple red/Blue – the left is as vigorously persecuting its own heretics as anything else.

        There is a holy war going on in the NYC School district right now – and there is not a republican in site.

        Liberal pundits who spoke out against cancel culture – are being excoriated as racists.

        Actually go read JK Rowlings remarks that got her branded a Transphobe.

        You can not blame Trump or republicans for the internal purges within the left.

        If you win this election – that will only get worse.
        I honestly do not think you have a chance of winning this election – I think there is a large under the surface backlash brewing – and there is lots of evidence of that.

        But say I am wrong – that only speaks to WHEN the backlash occurs.

        And I am worried – because the left is so incredibly destructive. they will destroy themselves – or they will provoke real violence.

        You do not understand that you can only infringe on peoples rights so far.

        The left has been driving gun sales in the US up for well over a decade.
        People are getting guns because they beleive they will need them – either the live in the lawless society you bring about, or to retake the government.

        Todate the real political violence has been exclusively from the left.

        But if this continues – political violence from the right will come. But it will not be lone schitzophrenics, nor white supremacists.

        You saw peaceful armed protestors in statehouses accross the country.

        What happens when they “peacefully” take over those statehouses ?

        You have alienated the police – do you think they are going to help ?

        Do you think that a President Biden or Harris can get the national guard to take on armed americans shutting down state governments ?

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 13, 2020 8:33 am

        Ron, I see no path to a Dem Senate super majority. They will be lucky to get a slim majority. The House will be more or less as it is now, a few seats either way. Trump will lose by 8-10 in the general as of today. Too much for the EC to save him and the GOP.

        If things go really really badly with COVID, and thus the economy, in the next three months it may be a worse GOP defeat than that.

        It will be an enormous mistake for the Dems to change the Senate rules, Who knows they could make that mistake, yes. There will be plenty of swing state dems in the Senate who are not by any means progressives, they will push back against the Sanders agenda. In any case, there will be no money to do anything big anyway after COVID, we will simply be trying to rebuild. The Biden years will consist of putting the country back on its feet after trump and COVID.

      • July 13, 2020 1:01 pm

        Roby, you have more faith in the parties doing what right for the country than I have. You know I have never supported Trump, the person, but had anyone else done what he has accomplished with trade, judicial appts, regulations, paris accords and other issues, he would be considered right up there with Reagan by the right. Even his brain dead tax reforms that should have only addressed the differences in taxes in each country to make ours more equitable and helped keep business here, but ended up expanding the deficit much more, is considered a positive by conservatives. I dont agrre with that part.

        I do not see anyone in either party willing to tackle the disasterious impact on the economy, debt and deficit. The democrats are full throttle free healthcare, free college, open borders, more presidential powers through regulation ( because congress does not want their prints on controversial agenda items), a national minimum wage instead of a national regional adjusted MW, Paris Accords and environment controls.

        The cost will be horrific. I am in the middle spectrum on most of these, but the dems position I foresee is scary. Hope your right and I am wrong. I see a definite 53-47 “D” senate, with a good possibility of 58-42, and I am giving 3 tossup states to the GOP.

        And yes, we have a “lifetime” between jow and the election. Just look what has happened since March 22.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 12:21 am

        “Trump’s brain dead tax reform”
        You solution is far WORSE than Trump’s.

        Corporate taxes are just plain stupid. Corporations can do two things with profits.
        They can invest them in the company, or they can return them to shareholders.
        The worst thing you can do with corporate profits is tax them.

        The corporate tax on foreign earnings should be zero. The corporate tax on US earnings should be zero.

        The tax on corporate investment should be zero.

        Dividends to shareholders should be taxed as ordinary income.

        Trump brought us closer to exactly that.

        Trump has spent more than he should have and more than he promised. But there is no connection between the tax reforms and deficits. Even the much derided and badly structured Bush tax cut did actually pay for itself

        The Trump tax cut was passed in 2017. Its first effect would have been 2018 – revenues were slightly up from 2017, In 2019 they were significantly up. In 2020 they are projected to be up even more significantly, and in 2021, further still.

        We do not have a tax problem – we have a spending problem.
        The deficit increases because spending is out of control.
        Trump has done little so far to address that.
        But democrats propose to make that far worse.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 7:41 pm

        According to WaPo there is still no red state with a death rate that is higher than 1/4 that of the top 4 blue states.
        CA currently has the highest death rate in the country. And it is still 1/4 the peak death rate in NY which is 1/2 the size of CA.

        There is some evidence that there is a small increase in C19 deaths as the economy opens up, and people start resuming their lives. but that increase is proportionate to the end of the lockdowns, NOT the increase in testing

        Regardless, there is no 2nd lockdown coming.

        Red states are continuing to move forward.
        While blue ones are stalling.

        You are likely to have a very large number of disgruntled people in blue states in November,
        I think they will be angrier at their governors. than at Trump.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 7:42 pm

        “It will be an enormous mistake for the Dems to change the Senate rules, ”

        But they are going to the first chance they get.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 9:19 pm

        “There will be plenty of swing state dems in the Senate who are not by any means progressives,”

        How well did that work when Dems took the house in 2018 – nearly all the new seats were won by D’s who were not progressive. These are the ones losing their seats now – because the house swung way to the left despite them.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 9:21 pm

        “In any case, there will be no money to do anything big anyway after COVID, we will simply be trying to rebuild. The Biden years will consist of putting the country back on its feet after trump and COVID.”

        Wishful thinking. R’s only oppose spending when out of power. D’s never oppose spending.
        If you think that Covid will have any effect on federal spending your nuts.

  88. vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
    July 12, 2020 9:26 pm

    I was so strongly hoping that trump would avert justice for Roger Stone. I knew I could count on trump to act in his uniquely principle-free manner. I also knew that that trump GOP, his voters and the politicians and media figures are so bound to their cult figure that they cannot ever get free and will have to support this.

    I am loving this.

    Joe does not have to do much other than keep breathing and let trump destroy himself.

    • July 12, 2020 9:36 pm

      Sorry for the double post. on the earlier comment. Did not show as posted from wordpress until I posted the second one, then they both posted.

      Anyway, if the democrats lets Joe Biden out of the basement to campaign, they are nuts! The only way Joe loses is if he dies or opens his mouth. And he is bringing the senate and House with him.

      I am just glad I do not have a whole lifetime left like my kids and grandkids have with the prospects of the government I see coming down the road.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 12:46 am

        Ron, I am not all that worried that Biden will win.

        It is unlikely, but should it happen – democratic victories are self punishing acts.

        Regardless, there is nothing Biden can do. The election is outside his control.

        If C19 deaths actually skyrocket – Trump will lose.

        If the economy stays in the crapper – Trump will lose.

        If a meteor strikes the rust belt – Trump will lose.

        I would not bet on any of those.

    • dhlii permalink
      July 13, 2020 12:37 am

      Justice for Roger Stone would be never to have been grilled by Mueller, and never to have been subject to these bogus politically motivated charges, Vertainly never to have had to face a jury as biased as he did with a judge who is no better.

      While Stone is no hero – he is just an ordinary political hack. He has also committed no crime – beyond offending the left by picking a winner.

      Justice for Roger Stone would be getting to celebrate his LEGITIMATE victory over his political equivalents on the left.

      YOU and your ilk are busy criminalizing politics while mobilizing govenrment agencies as political weapons.

      YOU should be ashamed of yourself.

      If Trump had the same morals as Obama, in 2024 when he leaves office – if he is succeeded by a democrat, he should mine the federal government just as Obama did on his way out.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 13, 2020 8:18 am

        Your right-wing view of crime and punishment is great entertainment. Again, you have not let me down, Splendid!

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 7:21 pm

        “Your right-wing view of crime and punishment is great entertainment. Again, you have not let me down, Splendid!”

        Name an actual crime involving Stone that was being legitimately investigated by Mueller

        If you want to claim Stone was engaged in obstruction – what legitimate criminal inquiry was he thwarting ?

    • dhlii permalink
      July 13, 2020 12:42 am

      What is it you are loving ? Recent poll has the election at a dead heat 47/47, but predicts Trump will win the EC by 40 votes.

      Same poll indicates that undecideds lean Trump by 60/40.
      That Trump is ahead in all swing states.

      This is only one poll – an it is an outlier from other national polls.
      But it tracks strongly many state polls.

      I doubt Trump is actually tie with Biden right now – just as I doubt that Trump is 10pts down.
      But I also suspect that Trump would win if the election was held today.

      And the next could of months are not likely to be democrat freindly.

      We now have reports that Antifa has plans to keep the rioting up all the way to the election.

      Do you think that is going to serve democrats well ?

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 13, 2020 8:22 am

        “What is it you are loving ? Recent poll has the election at a dead heat 47/47, but predicts Trump will win the EC by 40 votes.”

        Wonderful! Your course is clear! Bet all you have! Mortgage the house and bet that too! You can get great odds on a trump comeback!

        (Want to name the taker of the recent poll?)

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 7:30 pm

        The poll I cited can be found on RCP,
        It was commissioned by a news paper, and conducted by a Washington polling firm.

        I have no idea about its bonafides.

        But I know that all the national polls were wrong in 2016.
        And I know that the local polls that were right in 2016 are in agreement with this poll.
        And I know that actual elections recently such as CA25 and NY16 agree with this poll and conflict with the national polls.

        This poll could be wrong, the state polls could be wrong. the people who were right in 2016 could be wrong in 2020. The people who were wrong in 2016 could be right in 2020.

        Those kind of things have happened.

        But right now there as much reason to trust the guy with his finger in the air as any of the polls.

        The closet thing we have to a real clue – is CA25 and NY16.
        Those were real elections – not polls. Real people had to vote.

        BTW – I am not betting on a Trump “Comeback”

        While I think that Trump’s chances will improve in the next few months.

        What I am betting on is that he has already Won.

        You say this poll may be wrong – maybe you are right. Maybe the national polls are right.

        But they were not in 2016.

        So that I am perfectly clear – Trump is not making a comeback. He would win if the election was today.

      • July 13, 2020 11:22 am

        Roby, dont drink Dave’s cool-aide. Biden is also even with Trump in Texas. That is what happens in conservative states when idiot legislators recruit liberal business bringing in liberal voters and expect their state to benefit.

        I will be suprised if Trump gets to 260 electoral votes, more like 240-250.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 11:55 pm

        Ron,

        This is not about coolaid.

        What is correct will ultimately be determined in November.

        And I am not expert at reading the country – but neither are the polls.

        Right now we have alot of information to sense what is likely to happen in the election.

        There is no doubt that the national polls are running in Bidens favor.
        I have read some critiques of the methodology of those polls and the fact that there will be a significant shift in August when the way the polls are done changes – this is normal and happens every election.
        Regardless, Biden appears to be ahead in most national polls.

        But all data does not point to a Biden victory. I noted CA25 and NY16 many times.
        Those districts are much like districts Biden and democrats must win to keep the house and to pick up the presidency. And yet not only did the democrat lose – but lost by double digits.
        Nor were these races where democrats ran poor candidates, and republicans ran great ones. There were not red districts. These were swing districts – and democrats lost by 10pts.

        I wish we had more of that kind of information – real elections are quite different from polls. They tell us more than polls.

        But CA25 and NY16 are all we have right now.

        There are polls that contradict the major national polls. But they are not major polls.

        There are also conflicting state polls – the poll that got the rust belt right in 2016, is polling the same right now as in 2016. Further the polster says there are MORE “shy trump voters” in 2020 than in 2016. He is saying that Trump will beat Biden by slightly more than Clinton in 2020.

        The national poll that put Trump and Biden at 47/47 also asked questions of undecideds to try to guess where they were leaning, and they beleive the undecideds were going to break for Trump by almost 2:1.

        One of the questions they asked of undecideds is whether they new other voters that were likely voting for Trump/Biden but not admitting it. The point of this question is NOT the actual question, but to try to determine whether the undecided voter was actually a Trump voter or a Biden voter that was not ready to admit it 2:1 undecides claimed to know “shy trump voters”

        But most important to me is that democrats are not celebrating. They are behaving bat $h!t crazy. They are behaving like they are losing. They are behaving as if they must continue to make absolutely crazy claims or they are toast.

        Conversely Trump is not panicking. He is playing his game his way. He is continuing to follow his strategy.

        I do not know whether the polls are accurate – but I suspect that Trump and Democrats do.
        And Trump is not desparate, and democrats are.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 13, 2020 12:14 pm

        Roby, dont drink Dave’s cool-aide.”

        Moi? Never! trump won in 2016 with a slim but existing chance. If the vote were today he would have no chance. He is far underwater in the swing states, dave’s wild theories notwithstanding.

        But … events and 3 months time. I won’t be remortgaging my house to bet the Biden could not possibly lose. Right now, trump is losing badly, how many electoral votes is not of that much importance, though I would love to see him smashed.

        Again the Senate is not headed for a dem supermajority unless things go fantastically bad by election day. I don’t want the dems to have more than a slim majority and I will get my wish.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 12:10 am

        Trump is ahead in the swings states according to the polster who got 2016 right.

        Maybe he is wrong this time. We will see.

        I can not force an actual election tomorow, so we do not get to test this.
        But I am not concerned.

        I do not think the poll that says the popular vote is a 47/47 dead heat is correct, I also do not think the polls saying Biden has an 8pt lead are correct either.

        I do beleive if the election were held tomorow the result would be very similar to 2016.

        But you are sort of right about one thing – all of this is going to change over the next couple of months.

        If your pessimism about C19 proves correct – if there is an actual doubling of deaths – especially in red states – Trump is toast. If the recovery collapses – Trump is toast.

        But there is no real science behind your C19 pessimism, it is based on the magical idea that somehow the US is different from the rest of the world.

        And Barring a large spike in C19 deaths and a draconian return to lockdowns – the economy will surge in the next couple of months – it already has. Pretty much everything that is likely to happen favors Trump.

        I am also seeing incredibly stupid Biden attack adds. Biden recently went after Trump on China. Claiming Trump was duped by China. Maybe so – but who beleives that Biden who was fawning all over China and whose son is in bed with China is going to do better on China than Trump. That add was stupid and desparate. You do not attack your oppoenents strengths and your own weaknesses.

  89. dhlii permalink
    July 13, 2020 12:30 am

    Lets see a Carlson writer gets fired for replying to a post of someone else that appears to be racist, and your conclusion is Carlson is a racist ?

    I have replied to the posts of people who are racists, and you have interacted with me – does that make YOU a racist ?

    Carlson has some flaws – But the left is the swamp.

    As we have learned today it is now racist for white men to play with the children of their black friends.

    I am near certain that large portions of the left think I am racist – because I have adopted asian children. I just should have left my daughter to die in a chinese orphanage, and my son to grow up without a family ?

    Robby – it is YOU and your friends on the left how are tearing the country apart.

    That is what happens when you call everyone who disagrees with you a hateful, hating hater.

    • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
      July 13, 2020 8:12 am

      Splendid! You did not let me down! First class deflection! In fact, Fox News ITSELF called Neff a hateful hating hater. “”Neff’s abhorrent conduct on this forum was never divulged to the show or the network until Friday, at which point we swiftly accepted his resignation,” the network said in an internal memo.”

      “Make no mistake, actions such as his cannot and will not be tolerated at any time in any part of our work force.” “Horrendous and deeply offensive.”

      But your standards are far lower than their’s and your bullshit denial factory always has a distracting answer that you think is clever.

      As I have said, the further left one goes the more racism is everywhere and the further right one is the more racism is nowhere, just doesn’t exist. You are way out there on the right and to you almost no words are bad enough to qualify as racism. Yes, I think you are a racist, and not a small mild one, based on your bullshit deflections and defenses of indefensible people and actions. You have proved it. You and your right wing friends make a stink you cannot disguise. The far left is stupid, naive, often totally obnoxious, and IS definitely harmful. But the far right is vile, destructive and slowly on the way towards history’s garbage can. You can go there with with them, dinosaur.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 6:41 pm

        “Splendid! You did not let me down! First class deflection! In fact, Fox News ITSELF called Neff a hateful hating hater.Neff’s abhorrent conduct on this forum was never divulged to the show or the network until Friday, at which point we swiftly accepted his resignation,” the network said in an internal memo.”

        An I am happy to judge you by the same standards you apply to Carlson.

        I have replied to posts by others that are racist.
        You have replied to my posts.,

        By the transitive laws of racism – you are therefore a racist.

        Go flagellate yourself.

        Neff is not obligated to share his social media life with Fox,
        Though they are free to fire him.

        I have not thoroughly researched Neff’s posts – but the few I have seen so far that were purportedly problematic – were not. The posts that were racist – were the ones by others that he replied to, He ignored the racism and addressed their actual argument.

        Just as sometimes I ignore your Trump delusion and address your core argument.

        Whether Fox Fires Neff or not is their business. From what I see it is a mistake.

        “First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a socialist.

        Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a trade unionist.

        Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Jew.

        Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”

        If you are not prepared to defend offensive speech, no one will be there when they come for you.

        You have made it clear that you are an intolerant and hateful person.

        I am as inclined to defend your speech as that of actual nazi’s.
        I am as disinclined to defend your hatred and intolerance as that of actual nazi’s.

        If you do not want compared to nazi’s – do not behave like one.
        And quit claiming that everything you disagree with is hate.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 6:46 pm

        Robby – I have no position on Neff. As I said, I saw no problem with the few of HIS posts that I saw. But maybe there are others.

        I also have no problem with Fox firing him.

        But YOU have created this transitive property of racism – and have played this idiot game that because Neff replied to a post by someone else that was racist – that his boss – Carlson is therefore a racist.

        AS I noted – by that standard YOU are a racist.

        There is much about Carlson to criticise. There is much about any of us to criticise.

        But if you are going to call Carlson a racist – you had better come up with better proof.

        Frankly, you have not even made the case about Neff.

        But you are happy to lob racism hand grenades thoughtlessly – without any consideration for the fact that you have a grenade in your own hand with the pin pulled.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 6:48 pm

        If you want me to conclude that Neff is a Racist – Cite Neff’s posts that are racist.
        If you want me to conclude that Carlson is a Racist – cite racist remarks or acts by Carlson.

        This third cousin to a racist twice removed nonsense is tedious and damn’s you.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 6:51 pm

        I am sure I can find plenty of examples of your personal racism – using the carlson racism transitivity property you have just owned.

        Regardless, it is obvious from your own posts that you are hatefilled.

        You do not get to escape by vague declarations about the far left.

        You make false moral accusations about others.

        That is immoral. that is hateful.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 7:07 pm

        “You are way out there on the right and to you almost no words are bad enough to qualify as racism. Yes, I think you are a racist, and not a small mild one, based on your bullshit deflections and defenses of indefensible people and actions. You have proved it. You and your right wing friends make a stink you cannot disguise. ”

        Robby – I really do not care what your opinion is of anyone.

        My critique of you is primarily targeting your own immorality.

        I do not give a $h!t whether you think you are on the left, the right, …

        Your moral conduct, your intolerance and your hatred of people who disagree with you,
        is not distibguishable from that of the far left, or from that of actual nazi’s.

        You have just ranted about me above.

        So what is this “racism” of mine ?

        I defend free speech – absolutely, all the time – even your hate speech.

        I also attack those like you who lob claims of racism casually.
        I have seen no evidence that Carlson is more racist than normal – but you have already excoriated him as a racist, merely because Neff works for him.
        I do not know that Neff is a racist based on the evidence I have seen – but you bypassed establishing that Neff is racist and have blindly accepted and repeated the charge – based on what evidence ?

        Maybe there is evidence out there – but I do not tolerate accusations of things like racism without evidence. You have made such accusations and provided no evidence.

        You continue to claim I am “far right” – based on what ?

        Am I a neocon ?
        You are making this idiot “racist adjacent” argument.
        What is your evidence ?

        If you are going to accuse me or anyone else of moral failures – what is your evidence ?

        I HAVE accuse you of moral failure – and my evidence is self evident – you are constantly accusing others of moral failure without proving it. You have jumped from Neff, to Carlson to me – without proving anything at all – in Robby World accusation is proof – except when you are accused.

        Regardless, I have made my case. You self evidently make false or unproven moral accusations against others constantly. You are not moral.

        Your problem with me is not that I am on the far right – I am inarguably to the left or Ron and Priscilla. Your problem is that I do not let your constant false moral accusations slide.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 7:11 pm

        My far right wing friends ?
        Who would that be ?
        I have attacked you for making false moral accusations about a large number of people.

        That does not mean I like or agree with those people.
        It merely means that if you are going to accuse others of lying or racism, that you are obligated to prove it – whether the person you accuse is someone I like or not.

        Attacking you for making false allegations merely means I am intolerant of immorality.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 13, 2020 7:18 pm

        “The far left is stupid, naive, often totally obnoxious, and IS definitely harmful. But the far right is vile, destructive and slowly on the way towards history’s garbage can. You can go there with with them, dinosaur.”

        Please – describe the far right – name them, tell us what they beleive ?

        Sanders, Warren, AOC, Omar, Ilbran, Preseley, those are clear political leaders on the far left today. there is little dispute over what they beleive.

        What are there equivalents on the right,

        Are you saying Trump is “far right” ? Most of his policies have the support of the majority of americans – many supermajorities. Even those I disagree with have huge popular support.

        Where is this far right you are ranting about ?

        If you want to affiliate me with the far right, if you want the country to be terrified by them, you need more than some purple monster under the bed.

        Is Limbaugh extorting people to tear down the government ?
        Carlson ?

        Who is this dangerous far right you demand that we should fear ?

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 13, 2020 7:46 pm

        I have not thoroughly researched Neff’s posts – but the few I have seen so far that were purportedly problematic – were not. The posts that were racist – were the ones by others that he replied to, He ignored the racism and addressed their actual argument.”

        If you have not researched Neffs posts, then perhaps you ought to before spouting off.

        Perhaps this is what you mean by addressing the actual argument:

        “As CharlesXII, Neff displayed a remarkable range of bigotries. Just last week, he participated in a forum entitled, “Would u let a JET BLACK congo n****er do lasik eye surgery on u for 50% off?” (The original title spelled out the offensive word.) Neff responded in the forum, “I wouldn’t get LASIK from an Asian for free, so no.”

        And no Dave you are not defending freedom of speech, you are denying the clear meaning of someones words.

        There is an uncomplicated reason why you always jump into passionate action to defend your friends on the far right. Its not defence of freedom of speech. It is your way of participating in the work of your right wing nut friends.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 2:23 am

        “If you have not researched Neffs posts, then perhaps you ought to before spouting off.”

        If you call someone a racist – the burden of proof is on you.
        It is not my job to research Neff – I am not defaming him.

        “And no Dave you are not defending freedom of speech, you are denying the clear meaning of someones words.”

        I would not have said what Neff said – nor would I have said almost anything you have said.
        I have defended the free speach rights of actual nazi’s as well as the KKK in the past.
        The clear meaning of the words is irrelevant to the right of free speech.

        “There is an uncomplicated reason why you always jump into passionate action to defend your friends on the far right. Its not defence of freedom of speech. It is your way of participating in the work of your right wing nut friends.”

        back to mind reading. So when I fought for the right of Nazi’s and the KKK to march through my town – that was actually because I am a Nazi/KKK member ?

        If So why was I at their march protesting against them ?

        You are extremely poor at mind reading.

        There is a very uncomplicated reasons I pasionately defend free speech rights – because when we lose the right to free speech – the next right we excercise is the right to bear arms in order to alter and abolish government hat has been destructive of out rights.

        BTW I have passionately defended the free speech rights of those on the left – when they are actually threatened. Trump has said lots of very stupid things about the free speech rights of others. But he has never ACTED to impair someone else’s actual free speech rights.

        The fact that many of those whose free speech rights I am defending today are those on the right – is because they are the ones having their rights threatened.

        I have zero doubt that if that effort is successful – it will be your and my rights that are threatened next.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 2:31 am

        You keep refering to this mythical far right.

        What is the far right and what do they beleive ?

        Supermajorities within this country support:
        limits to immigration
        oppose socialism
        support ending the endless wars.
        Support confronting China agressively
        Support US energy independence.
        Oppose tearing down statues – even confederate ones.

        So how is it that you can identify someone on the “far right” ?

        You keep saying that I am secretly aligned with the “far right”.

        What principles, policies, etc, identify the “far right” ?

        I think we all have a pretty good idea what the far left is.

        But I am hard pressed to think of what you mean by Far right – that does not include 60+ % of americans.

        That is pretty much NOT the “FAR RIGHT” – it is arguably not even the right.

        There are what maybe 12 people on the “far right” in this country – David Dukes and Richard Spensor are the only ones I can think of – and frankly most of the neo-nazi types are both racists and socialists.

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 14, 2020 9:46 am

        ““If you have not researched Neffs posts, then perhaps you ought to before spouting off.”

        If you call someone a racist – the burden of proof is on you.
        It is not my job to research Neff – I am not defaming him.

        “And no Dave you are not defending freedom of speech, you are denying the clear meaning of someones words.”

        I would not have said what Neff said – nor would I have said almost anything you have said.”

        Splendid Evasion. Fail.

        I said Neff is a racist and his words prove it. I did not “defame” him, he defamed himself. You are not about to confront that obvious fact so, you evade. Not really clever, but expected.

        The right wing nuts I speak of are the Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham, Tucker Carlson, Hannitty, and all the people who swallow their poison with pleasure, internalize it, and then regurgitate it. Yes, its tens of millions of people. The conservative movement has been deeply infected by this far right ideology. It has not swallowed every conservative by any means, but it has swallowed a majority of them.

        Carlson actually defended his apprentice Neff last night and attacked the people who exposed Neff as “Ghouls.” The ghouls in my universe are the people who listen to Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham, Tuck Carlson, Hannity, Neff and the like and and believe it. That is the ugly and yes, shameful, right wing I am talking about. Its no small group.

        There you have it, Dave, in your universe Me , my old mother, the democratic party in general, we are all marxists and left wing nuts who according to you are destroying America. Me and my left wing friends, as you call us.

        So, right back at ya, In my universe, you are your right wing nut friends are destroying America, as a last gasp before history’s garbage can receives you.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 4:24 pm

        It appears I do not need to respond to you

        Barri Weis has resigned from the New York Times and her resignation letter is damning – to NYT, to the Left, and to YOU.

        https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

        Read Weis and take note that YOU are her oppressor.

      • July 14, 2020 5:38 pm

        Dave, who is Bari Weiss. Not much info other than NYT crap when searching. And I dont thinkWIKI is creditable.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 5:54 pm

        I only skimmed the start of the Wikipedia article on her.
        But that was accurate. Regardless, she describes herself well in her resignation.

        She came to NYT from WSJ after 2016.

        She was hired by NYT because the Times realized after Clinton’s defeat that they were out of touch with 50% of the country. Her job was to bring a diversity of viewpoints to the NYT editorial page. Basically to make sure the NYT editorial page was not solely the official propoganda organ of the left. In her resignation she notes the significant voices that she was able to bring to the NYT editorial page

        People like

        Venezuelan dissident Wuilly Arteaga; the Iranian chess champion Dorsa Derakhshani; and the Hong Kong Christian democrat Derek Lam. Also: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Masih Alinejad, Zaina Arafat, Elna Baker, Rachael Denhollander, Matti Friedman, Nick Gillespie, Heather Heying, Randall Kennedy, Julius Krein, Monica Lewinsky, Glenn Loury, Jesse Singal, Ali Soufan, Chloe Valdary, Thomas Chatterton Williams, Wesley Yang,

        She was also responsible for the excellent Tom Cotton editorial that got several others at the NYT fired and likely was the driving factor in her resignation.

        But the point is not WHO was Barri Weis – aside from that she was the staff editor for the Editorial page – i.e. she was supposed to be responsible for the voice of the editorial page.
        If it leaned one direction – that was on her, if it was diverse – that was on her. And it was her job to fix the fact that NYT had become the propoganda organ of the left.

        She failed – and her resignation documents why she failed.

        She failed for the same reasons that Robby is morally bankrupt.
        Because no one at NYT has any interest in viewpoints other than their own, and because they will not listen to people who disagree, they will jump straight to vile defamation.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 4:37 pm

        “The right wing nuts I speak of are the Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham, Tucker Carlson, Hannitty,”

        So precisely why are they “right wing nuts ?”

        Carlson is near a ringer for Ron – his policies and values are near identical to Ron’s.
        There is also tremendous overlap between Carlson and Democratic presidential candidate Andrew Yang. Is Yang a “right wing nut” ?

        Specifically why is Carlson a “right wingnut” ?
        I would be shocked if you had the slightest clue about the policy positions of any one of these people.

        I beleive you told me that Limbaugh was a racist earlier – you have yet to prove that.

        I will note – and this applies to Neff and to you that someone is not a bigot or a racist or a homophobe for some remark they have made at some past point in their lives.
        Otherwise everyone in the democratic party is a racist and homophobe.

        Regardless, you have claimed that each of these people is a “right wing nut” – WHY ?

        “all the people who swallow their poison with pleasure, internalize it, and then regurgitate it.”
        Completely meaningless and subjective statement. By this definition – Hillary Clinton is a “right wing nut” – You are a “Right wing nut”.

        You clearly “swallow poison with pleasure, internalize it, and then regurgitate it”.

        Until you are prepared to actually address real issues and evidence – all you are doing is libel, slander, defamation, and absent evidence to support you defamation – your words are immoral.

        “Yes, its tens of millions of people. The conservative movement has been deeply infected by this far right ideology. It has not swallowed every conservative by any means, but it has swallowed a majority of them.”

        And still you have never once described what this “far right ideology” is ?

        Ron & Priscilla – possibly even Rick are closer full support of Trump’s policies than I am.

        Are they far right wingnuts ? Are they bigots ? Racists ? Homophobes ?

        What is it besides you “guts” that allows you to identify a “far right wingnut” ?

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 5:07 pm

        “Carlson actually defended his apprentice Neff last night”
        So ?

        I am not happy that Neff would not get Lasik from an asian.

        It is not a basis for erasing him from existence.

        You do not hold Democrats to the same standards.
        Go listen to some of Biden’s recent remarks – they are positively creepy.
        Is it acceptable to you to call someone who asks you a good question – a dog faced pony soldier ? Or to fat shame questioners ? Is it acceptable to comment on the breast size of 14yr olds ? Have you listened to Biden’s CornPop stories ? In the unlikely event they are true – why would he be talking about them now ?

        The point is that you are a hypocrit – Biden is no more defensible than Neff.
        Actually that is false – Biden is a public figure making icky remarks in front of a camera.

        Neff was not a public figure, he was exactly like you – a private person, posting under a pseudonym.

        We properly do not hold people to the same standards for what they post anonymously.
        We properly do not hold people to the same standards for what the say privately.

        Carlson, Ingram, Hannity and Limbaugh should be judged by what they say publicly.

        They have plenty of time to choose their words, and they know they may be permanently held accountable for their words.

        Limbaugh has been attacked for things he said in the 70’s as a shock jock. He has apologized for those. Regardless it was 50 years ago and it was part of the expectations of the job.

        So what is it these “right wingnuts” have said that damn’s them to the far right ?

        What are the policies they advocate for ?

        What is their conduct ?

        I do not think that Carlson or Ingram or Limbaugh or Hanity have been accused of sexual assault ? If harrassing Women – but the man you are voting for as president has.

        Is there video of any of these people inappropriately fondling under age girls or adult women they are not in a relationship with ?

        You are a hypocrite. who spews hate.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 5:12 pm

        I know nothing of your mother – beyond what you say. And you are not a trustworthy source.

        I doubt I have ever accused her of anything, but if I have without knowing her – I apologize.

        I can not judge a person I know nothing about – but I can judge you – and I can judge conduct.

        You make moral accusations without proof. You do it always. You do it merely because you disagree with someone – though even that is not true – it is likely you agree with those “right wingnuts” on many issues, should you ever bother to listen to any of them.
        Regardless you condem and defame people based on your uninformed judgement of them.

        You condemned Neff before you had any idea what he had said, and then pretended that being unwilling to get lasik from an asian made him the worst sort of racist.
        As well as condemning everyone even associated with him.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 5:27 pm

        I do not recall accusing you of being a marxist.

        What I have said is that you – and those you claim I have defamed are blind to the rise of cultural marxism on the left, while at the same time being heavily influenced by it, and lastly that not only are you blind to the rise of marxism on the extreme left – but you are ignorant of to bloody history – of not just marxism – but all forms of socialism.

        The democratic party may not at this moment be marxist – though it sure is floating with cultural marxism, but it is knee deep in socialism.

        You can claim to oppose that – fine. Do exactly that – actually oppose the rising socialism in the democratic party.

        Read the Weis resignation – you will be drummed out of the left in 10seconds, you will be labeled a racist and bigot.

        You can defame as racists – Limbaugh and others – that is easy for you to do – no one but me will make you pay any price for defaming Limbaugh. No one will expect you to prove you vile accusations before making them.

        But criticise the left from within – and you will find yourself being labeled the next Limbaugh.

        I doubt you are blind to this – but you have no courage. You are afraid of being attacked in the same way you attack others. So you will not dare really stand up. You will wag your fingers at nameless far lefties – caricatures but you will not merely do nothing to stop the socialist creep of the democratic party – you will enable it.

        What is it that Trump as DONE in the past 4 years that is a tiny portion of the threat to this country as the left ? As marxism, as socialism ?

        Will the wall bring this country to its knees ?
        Will getting the US out of pointless mideast wars ?
        Will standing up to China ?
        Will Trumps forceful trade negotiations ?
        Will Trump’s deregulation ?

        I am not asking whether you agree with all Trump’s policies – I do not.

        But which of these will do a tiny fraction of the harm of socialism.

        Trump braggs constantly about what he has accomplished – and he has not done nearly as well as he claims. He is not near as good economically as Clinton or Reagan. But he is much better than either Bush or Obama.

        Regardless he is no existential threat.

        Yet you rant as if he is.

        If Biden is merely a return to Obama – that would be much worse than Trump.
        If Biden does half of what he says – that would be disasterous.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 5:34 pm

        “So, right back at ya, In my universe, you are your right wing nut friends are destroying America, as a last gasp before history’s garbage can receives you.”

        How So ? We know from history the end results of socialism and marxism.

        How are those on the right “destroying america” ?

        Pick Trump, Pick Carlson, Pick Limbaugh …?

        What is it that they are doing or arguing should be done, what policies are they selling that would “destroy america”.

        I am not aware of a single person on the right that is seeking to end gay marraige, return to the racism of the 60’s or otherwise return wholesale to the 60’s.

        But even if they did advocate for that – while a bad choice it still would not “destroy america”.

        Socialism destroys whatever it touches, marxism even more so.

        I will be happy to debate issues with you – but you are never going to do so – because the absolute worst that anyone of even the smallest consequence on the right is advocating would not “destroy america” – but what the left is pushing is destroying america.

        Just your approach of defaming those you disagree with is destroying america.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 8:46 pm

        I tripped over this on RCP – and since you have called Hannity a venomous right wingnut,
        I though I should actually listen to a bit of Hannity to assess your claim.

        Here is Hannity interviewing Roger Stone and his lawyer after the commutation.

        We can debate the merits of the facts presented – obviously this is only one side, though I do not recall anything said by Stone, or his lawyer or Hannity that is in error.

        But how is it that any of these people come up as “Far Right” ?
        Because they do not buy into the discredited “collision delusion” ?

        Please Robby – you have told me that these are all evil right wingers – what is wrong with this interview ?

        I do not like Hannity and Stone – but there is nothing said in this that sounds unreasonable.
        I can not tell if it is all accurate – you need to hear both sides to be more certain of that.

        But it is certainly not hateful poisonous venom as you claim.

        Regardless there are several claims that Stone makes that are indisputable.

        Stone was perscribed by Judge Jackson from presenting his defense.

        He was precluded from offering expert witness to demonstrate that the Wikileaks emails were the result of a leak not a hack.

        While Stone can easily be found innocent regardless, there is no possibility at all that Stone can be quitly of anything if the emails were leaked. In fact the entire russia collusion nonsense explodes in the lefts face.

        Leaking from a private entity like the DNC is a firing offense, it is not a crime. It is possible that the leaker might be subject to civil damages – but those would be civil and limited to the leaker.

        As we now know from the House Testimony that has been declassified – CrowdStrike testified that while the DNC was hacked (twice) they could not state that the Hack was by the Russians, or that the DNC emails were transfered by the hackers. VIPS – a groupd of former NSA cyber forensic experts have published and were prepared to testify as expert witness that the DNC emails were more probably leaked to wikileaks than hacked.

        While the collision delusion went down the tubes long ago, That would obliterate even the remote possibility of truth.

        If the DNC emails were leaked – the entire farce of Stones failed contacts with Asange become irrelevant. You can not conspire before or after the fact to commit a non-crime.

        So why was Stone prohibited from putting on that defense ?

        Is that reasonable ?

        Who cares whether the Defendant is Angela Davis or Roger Stone – doesn’t justice require allowing the defendant to make the arguments that demonstrate their innocence ?

        You can claim that Stone may not be able to prove that the DNC emails came from a leak.
        That is correct, just as it is not possible to prove they were hacked. So why is the prosecutor allowed to claim something that is not provable, but the defendant not allowed to challenge it ?

        As Stone also notes – while there are serious questions about Judge Sulivan – Flynn who plead guilty was nonetheless provided with more opportunity to challenge the prosecution than Stone was. And Stone proceed to trial with the presumption of innocence.
        All of the information that Sydney Powell ultimately got from DOJ regarding Flynn should have similarly been provided to Flynn and his attorney’s – and yet Jackson barred it.

        That is improper. A defendant and his lawyers are always entitled to any exculpatory information from the prosecutor. Judge Jackson thwarted that.

        Shouldn’t we give Stone a fair trial before we hang him ?

      • vermontadowhatiwanta permalink
        July 14, 2020 5:43 pm

        “You are a hypocrite. who spews hate.”

        Oh, we are all hypocrites when seen by our adversaries, and anyone who is anyone and stands for anything hates something.

        So yeah, I hate the loony right. Cry me a river, loon.

        You will solemnly tell me that you are Not a hypocrite and that you hate nothing and no one. Bzzzt. Wrong. You bow to no one in the hypocrite department (given your COVID herd immunity and non susceptibility statements and theories you ought to be going around maskless and trying your best to expose yourself to COVID for the public and your own good. But you are not doing what you recommend the nation do as the national laissez-faire best answer to COVID asare you, hypocrite). You also bow to no one in the hate spewing department, your blanket hatred and rage against anyone or anything one nanometer left of center has consumed literally millions of words here and endless numbers are yet to spew from you.

        No, I am not going to “prove” this to you. I can’t. I can prove nothing to you. Not because its not true but because you are not intellectually or morally honest and I could not prove to you that you breath oxygen and exhale CO2 if you found an ideological angle to disbelieve it.

        How bout this dave, you are a delusional dishonest denialist phony internet lawyer for the world of right-wing jackasses and you spew nonsense by the metric shit load, making everyone beyond weary of your windy cool-aid baths.

        Ah, the miracle of the internet, we can all find some jackass to be sick to death of here.

        Your turn, spew away.

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 6:01 pm

        Again read Barri Weis, she does a far better job of showing what is wrong with you and those like you than I can.

        I doubt you will. You are not interested in any view beyond your own.

        Regardless, Is Weis – the former staff editor of the editorial page of the NYT some far right wing extremist ? Is she a racist ? Homophobe ?

        And how are you different from the army of lunatics at NYT that made it impossible to restore the NYT editorial page to the forum for the best expression of the diverse oppinions of the world, from its state as the leftist propoganda organ.

        You keep attacking nameless left wing nuts – but you do not make actual arguments.
        You do not ever address actual issues. Anyone who disagree’s with you is an extreme right winger, and a racist and a homophobe, and a hateful, hating hater – and therefore you have no need to read what they actually say – or address any argument or position they hold.

        https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

      • dhlii permalink
        July 14, 2020 7:46 pm

        “You will solemnly tell me that you are Not a hypocrite and that you hate nothing and no one. ”

        Hypocracy is the unforgivable sin.

        “given your COVID herd immunity”

        Herd immunity is epidemiology 101. Any “expert” that is scoffing at it, does not deserve their degrees.

        There is no “hypocrisy” here – I am not sure how their could be. It is basic science known to work.

        “non susceptibility statements and theories”
        You should hope I am right – I think there is alot of evidence to support that – 100% of people do not get the flu or colds – even where there are no vaccinations. We know empirically that nearly all diseases have some large portion of people who are naturally immune of highly resistant – even if we do not know why.

        Further we are now seeing data to support that. We are finding people who have not had C19 but have T Cells that indicate atleast some degree of resistance to it.

        Regardless, this is a claim that can be argued and tested with facts logic, reason.

        You disagree with my claim – fine – make your case and I will make mine.
        But that is not what you do. You attack it as some right wing propoganda – despite the fact that the data is coming mostly from europe. Or you otherwise defame my argument or me.

        You do not respond with a counter argument.

        I hope I am right – you should hope I am right – hundreds of thousands of lives will be lost if I am wrong. Regardless I welcome you actual criticism – rather than your childish rants and defamation. It there are weaknesses in my C19 arguments – lets identify them. If any of those arguments are wrong – lets determine that.

        You seem completely uninterested in establishing the truth about C19 – to you the truth about C19 is whatever the specificc expert you decided to beleive said – because it “felt right” to you. You claim to be about science, – but you are only interested in SOME expert views.
        You will even reject your own experts – when they change their mind.

        “you ought to be going around maskless and trying your best to expose yourself to COVID for the public and your own good.”

        Nope, those people who are least vulnerable should do so.
        Herd immunity is reached at approximately 80% immunity – the actual percent may be higher or lower. That means approximately 20% of the population that IS susceptable will not get infected.

        Absent a vaccine or a cure, Herd immunity is the only way we beat a virus like C19.

        If you have evidence that there is another way – we would all love to hear it.

        Regardless, It that 20% of the population that ends up being protected by “the herd” is mostly young people – that means that we will have sacrificed the vulnerable for the sake of the healthy.

        It you want “the greatest good” outcome – your goal should be to get the most vulnerable into that 20%, and accept that everyone else must either get C19 or be naturally immune.

        None of this is political. It is basic science and math – and regardless of whether you hear is much – it is epidemeology 101. It is not heterodox.

        Social Distancing and flattening the curve are actually the heterodox ideas. And we know that they do not reduce total infections – they just delay them.

        “But you are not doing what you recommend the nation do as the national laissez-faire best answer to COVID asare you, hypocrite).”
        This is not a Laissez-fair arguement. In fact YOUR position is more laissez-faire than mine.

        Abesent a vaccine or a cure C19 does not go away until herd immunity is acheived.

        YOUR approach is to force everyone to protect themselves – draw this out as long as possible, and let random chance, survivial of the fittest or survivial of the most germophobic determine who lives and who dies.

        That is the result of your approach – as I have noted before – even if masks are 97% effective, if C19 is arround long enough you will still get it. We know that Doctors and nurses will get C19 even wearing the best PPE if they work with C19 patients long enough.

        Masks do not prevent infection they delay it. The goal should be to delay infection ONLY for the vulnerable. Otherwise it is YOU who are engaged in the Darwinian laissez-faire contest.

        “You also bow to no one in the hate spewing department, your blanket hatred and rage against anyone or anything one nanometer left of center has consumed literally millions of words here and endless numbers are yet to spew from you.”

        Again – how so ? I have criticised Biden – I do not hate him.

        Your conduct is immoral – I do not hate you.

        Marxism is self evidently murderous – I am not sure whether you characterize that as hate or not, and I am not sure I care. I am OK with being accused of hating a vile and murderous ideology.

        I have characterized the left as hateful hating haters – because they are – it is self evident.
        The hate the right – purportedly because of racism, homophobia, … claims that might be partly true of a small number of individuals – but are certainly false as blanket statements.
        The right conversely does not hate the left – though the left is rapidly teaching them to.

        There are more words in the bible than I have written here – is that blanket hatred and rage ? Why do you equate volume with anything but volume ?

        “No, I am not going to “prove” this to you. I can’t.”
        That is correct – because it is not true.
        Regardless if you make a moral accusation, you are OBLIGATED to prove it.
        There is no free ride for defamation. Even our law recognizes defamation as a tort.
        You are not permitted to slander, libel or defame others without consequence.
        The only defense for defamation is truth – and the burden legal and otherwise is on you.

        This is a necessity for society. If we can lie constantly about the character of those we disagree with – we can not have society. It is not possible. That is what we are seeing today.
        And the root – which you fail to grasp is on the left. This argument by defamation started on the left some time ago. You loath Trump – not because of his policies – but because he is doing to you what you have done to those you disagree with for decades. Because he is using your tools against you – very effectively.

        “I can prove nothing to you.”
        Because there is noth