America Is Burning: Notes on the George Floyd Riots
It took a pandemic to make us forget about President Trump’s impeachment circus and the depressing presidential campaign between two borderline-senile old men. It took the killing of an ordinary African American man named George Floyd by Minneapolis police to make us forget about the pandemic. And finally, it took a nationwide orgy of fire and destruction to make us nearly forget about poor George Floyd.
The killing was inexcusable. Police had pulled Floyd out of his car on suspicion of passing a counterfeit $20 bill. Floyd resisted, was handcuffed and dragged over to the waiting police car. Then, for an agonizing span of nearly nine minutes, officer Derek Chauvin pressed his knee over Floyd’s neck while the victim pleaded for air, moaned and died. The entire incident was captured on video and witnessed by distressed onlookers.
What possessed Chauvin to kneel on a handcuffed man’s neck, calmly and without evident emotion, while his victim couldn’t breathe? (One minute would have been excessive; nine is positively inhuman.) Why did Chauvin’s colleagues just stand by and watch with blank uncaring faces? There was no need to restrain Floyd once he was handcuffed and on the ground. Why didn’t they just yank him into the car, drive him to the precinct for questioning, and either release him or slap him on the wrist for passing a counterfeit bill?
Right-wing conspiracy theorists have surmised that the Deep State (or was it George Soros?) orchestrated the fatal encounter to stir up righteous anger among blacks and progressive whites – as if we needed to become even more politically polarized than we already are. And of course, the left cited George Floyd’s death as a prime example of white America’s genocidal campaign against people of color.
Without going as far as to accuse the white patriarchy of genocidal intent, all of us – leftists, moderates and conservatives – need to speak out against unwarranted police brutality. That much is clear: bad cops give all cops a bad name.
Then the protests began: first in Minneapolis, the scene of the crime – then in Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Boston, Atlanta, Seattle and even Omaha. All too predictably, the demonstrations turned unruly and destructive. Buildings and cars were set afire… rocks smashed store windows, and smartphone videos recorded dozens of looters scurrying out with bundles of free merchandise. This was worse than Ferguson or the Freddy Gray riots in Baltimore. Perhaps fittingly for a pandemic year, the violence went viral.
Chauvin, the offending cop, had already been charged with third-degree murder and his three silent colleagues had been fired. Justice was being served. So why the wanton destruction of property belonging to innocent people who had nothing to do with George Floyd’s death? The rage was understandable, but this was looking more and more like a national uprising. Many of the rioters were white far-left agitators brought in from outside to foment revolution, as they’re wont to do.
To their credit, the more reasonable black protesters decried the violence, claiming that it dishonored George Floyd’s memory. Less reasonable career leftists demanded that we ignore the fires and looting; after all, a human life is more valuable than mere property. I posted on Facebook that we should be appalled by both the killing of George Floyd and the indiscriminate vandalism – and my post triggered an avalanche of more than a hundred heated comments from across the political spectrum.
From the left: my white privilege was showing; we have no right to criticize black behavior unless we’ve walked a mile in their shoes. One longtime friend asked me to read an article entitled “In Defense of Looting.” (Wage labor is a demeaning way to acquire goods? Thanks but no thanks.) I asked another left-wing friend how she’d feel if rioters set fire to the preschool she’s lovingly nurtured for the past several decades. (No reply to that trick question.)
From the right: the police get sick of dealing with black miscreants on a daily basis, and the rioters were simply revealing their true nature as savages. The protests were just an excuse to steal free stuff. And why do we never hear about all the white victims of police killings? (Well, that last question is a valid one: why do we never hear about the white victims of police killings? Would they spoil the narrative?)
Do the police harbor some dark and unfathomable animosity toward black people? You’d almost think so, given all the national news coverage of black lives unceremoniously terminated after a bad encounter with the local cops. And yet our police kill roughly 2 ½ times as many whites as blacks.
Of course, we need to make a few adjustments: whites outnumber blacks nearly five to one, so a black person is about twice as likely to die at the hands of police. Another adjustment: white police victims are more likely than blacks to have been armed, so the percentage of unarmed black victims rises still higher in relation to white victims. And yet another: blacks more often resist arrest, triggering cops to overreact and resort to lethal force.
But here’s the statistic you probably knew was coming: according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, blacks commit some 52% of all homicides despite accounting for only 13% of the population. Whites are much more likely to be killed by blacks than vice versa, and 94% of black homicide victims are murdered by members of their own race. I can tell you that in Philadelphia, home of The New Moderate, nearly all the murders I read about take place in predominantly black neighborhoods.
The sad truth remains that black people continue to kill and be killed in disproportionate numbers, sometimes at the hands of police but much more often by their peers. Why? As someone who lives just a few blocks away from a ghetto neighborhood, I could point a finger at some of the probable causes I’ve observed. But I’m no authority, and my middle-class whiteness (or Middle Eastern-ness) probably invalidates my musings on the subject. Still, I try to understand.
Of course, black crime statistics are no excuse for police manhandling individual blacks, just as a few bad cops are no excuse for making war on all police. We need to stop viewing our fellow citizens as interchangeable representatives of this or that class — and start seeing them as individuals.
Meanwhile, American cities are burning. Small businesses, already crippled by the pandemic, are being looted and vandalized – including black-owned businesses. As the crowds grow rowdier, the police are responding with tear gas, rubber bullets and curfews. Miraculously, nobody has been killed so far, and we can only hope that the casualty count stays at zero on both sides.
Still, it’s painful to watch America’s social fabric unravel before our eyes. The sight of rogue rioters across the republic breaking windows, setting fires, demolishing cars and throwing any object within reach is the sight of a civilization on the brink of collapse.
The America of Norman Rockwell, Andy Hardy, the Cleavers, Mayberry and even “Friends” is now a distant memory, if it ever existed. The sentimentalist in me mourns the loss of that gentle world, just as my inner cynic always expected its demise. I’m not happy that I’ll be spending my declining years on a sinking ship, but I feel even sorrier for the young people who will be reaching their prime during an era of unimaginable discord.
It looks as if 2020 will be going down in history as a year the historians will remember and the rest of us will want to forget. And it’s not even half over.
The one bright spot during this most miserable week in an epically miserable year, aside from the glories of spring, was the launch of SpaceX’s Falcon 9 rocket – the first launch from American soil in nearly a decade. Watching that rocket climb skyward triggered a rush of youthful memories – memories of an America that led the world as (mostly) a force for good and a beacon of hope for a brilliant future.
Is it too late to recapture that spirit?
Rick Bayan is founder-editor of The New Moderate. His three collections of darkly humorous essays are available in e-book form on Amazon for just $2.99 each.
THE NEW MODERATE 
“Right-wing conspiracy theorists have surmised that the Deep State (or was it George Soros?) orchestrated the fatal encounter to stir up righteous anger among blacks and progressive whites – as if we needed to become even more politically polarized than we already are. And of course, the left cited George Floyd’s death as a prime example of white America’s genocidal campaign against people of color. ”
Source please! If Alex Jones or Limbaugh is spouting this – I have missed it entirely.
The claim I have heard is that Sorros is funding Antifa Outsiders to inflame the riots, and that Biden/Sorros groups are paying their bail.
I do not know the extent to which that is true, but at some scale it is True.
We know Antifa is involved, we do not know if its role is large or small.
Except that a large number of the arrests are not locals.
We also know that bail is being paid by Sorros/Biden funded groups.
Dave: I had seen a couple of my conservative friends post about the Deep State or Soros being behind the riots. Here’s a link from Forbes addressing the Soros conspiracy theory: https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2020/05/30/right-wing-conspiracists-pull-from-old-playbook-blame-george-soros-for-riots/#4aa1f6934100
Your article posits that the RW sees a conspiracy where Sorros or the DS orchestrated the fatal encounter. That is RADICALLY different from the RW attributing the shift from peaceful protests to violent riots to Antifa and Sorros.
I have not heard anything anywhere that claims Chauvin is part of some organized conspiracy to kill Floyd. Over the past several months so many RW conspiracy theories have proven true it is harder to say that such a claim is “batshit crazy”, regardless I have heard no evidence of that and no one claiming it. But I do not follow Alex Jines and he could be blaming it on martians or Pelosi and Schumer for all I know.
I have heard allegations that Antifa is involved and that Sorros has funded groups tied to the violence. Trump and others have made claims that the violence is almost entirely outside agitators. While others have claimed there are only a few Antifa and outside agitators.
I am pretty sure is it fairly solidly established at this point that Antifa has played a part in the violence. How big I do not know.
I did see alot of video from LA. BLM was very very very heavily involved in Quelching the violence. They openly said they would tackle people who attacked the police or engaged in violence. I do not 100% agree with all those in BLM in LA said, but I 100% support their right to say it, and all evidence I saw was they were protesting very responsibly.
At the same time there was real violence in LA, It seemed to divide into two groups,
The one I would call tailgaters or partiers.
These appeared to be ordinary people in their community with nothing better to do that were treating this like a party, getting drunk and throwing cups and bottles and things at police cars.
The 2nd group appeared to be looters. They were breaking into stores and stealing things.
There was also a group. Maybe BLM affilitated that was acting as police – they were trying to protect people from the looters – to keep people safe.
I would note all of the above was LA, not Atlanta or Minesota. There appers to be alot more violence in Minesota.
Sorros and Sorros affiliates funds assorted protest groups arround the world.
Many of whom are not “good people” by most of our judgement.
I would be shocked if there is not Sorros money involved.
I would be surprised if there is not lots of Sorros money in BLM.
But so far as I can tell atleast in the video from LA I saw BLM is behaving extremely responsibly and is to be commended.
Whether Sorros money is funding the violence is an open question. That may or may not prove true.
I want to be clear about one thing. It is not some RW conspiracy to say Sorros is involved in some shady things.
Groups he funds are even involved in the Hunter Biden Ukraine mess.
Sorros has money flowing all over the world, and it is often going to some radical groups.
I would be shocked if Sorros is not funding groups involved in this. Claiming that is not some RW conspiracy.
The question is which groups is he funding and are THOSE groups involved in violence.
We could discover that Sorros is funding BLM and that his funding is conditional on their taking a non-violent stance. If that is true – that is a good thing.
We could also discover that Sorros is funding Antifa. that would not surprise me at all.
That would be a bad thing.
But I think it is near certain that Sorros money is flowing to some groups involved in this.
One of the problems here is that there is a VERY LEGITIMATE reason to protest.
At the same time there is no reason to RIOT.
And we have to grasp that BOTH are happening at the same time – sometimes in the same places.
Trying to separate the legitimate protestors from the rioters is difficult in some cases.
I 100% support those engaged in non-violent protests.
I 100% oppose those engaged in violence and looting and destruction.
“Without going as far as to accuse the white patriarchy of genocidal intent, all of us – leftists, moderates and conservatives – need to speak out against unwarranted police brutality. That much is clear: bad cops give all cops a bad name. ”
I know that lots of the country is jumping there – but do we have to posit White Patriarchy and genocidal intents ?
I see two conflicting but both true issues.
First, like it or not the data shows a long term trend of declining police brutality.
What happened to Floyd is increasingly rare.
At the same time – a small body of bad apples absolutely exists within our police.
That is a problem, but I am going to take odds with you – that is NOT the big problem.
The big problem is that the bad apples would not have our cities burning, but for the fact that our entire criminal justice system and particularly the rank and file police and their unions protect these bad apples.
“All that is required for evil to flourish is good men to do nothing”
That is the crime.
Though less significant we have the same problem with teachers and with other government employees. It is easier to convict a teacher of a crime than to fire them.
I was arguing that we *shouldn’t* accuse the white patriarchy of genocidal intent, but that’s what several of my left-wing friends were saying or implying.
Right in the midst of this there was an editorial in the NYT that I could not beleive, though I have only heard excerpts. That was literally saying that white women today have the blood of blacks who were lynched 75 years ago on them.
Currently George Floyd has overwhelmed the Dueling “Karens” in Central Park.
Flyod’s story is more clear – there is no possible unknowns that could change the fact that Chauvin is responsible for Flyod’s death. Even if as is being claimed Flyod had a heart attack, he was in police custody. He had no way to care for himself in handcuffs, the police are responsible for his care and treatment.
The Central Park mess is much more complicated and less clear cut.
And Amy Cooper behaved badly.
But many on the left – much of new york is essentially saying that White women are never entitled to be concerned about their safety – especially when it is black males that are the potential threat. The left – and not just fringes are really saying that. And they are really blaming all white women even today for the lynching of blacks 75 years ago.
This is dangerous and very wrong.
The unfair and irrational nature of all collective guilt arguments has always angered me.
Amen.
We have statues of limitations for reasons.
We do not hold the children accountable for the sins of the father.
I am not responsible for the sins of my great, great, great, great grandfather – who was a recent Irish and fought for the north in the Civil war.
I am not responsible for the sins of my father
nor those imputed to my class or race today.
I am responsible only for my own conduct.
As is everyone else.
If you call me a racist – you had better have proof, if you do not, the sin is yours.
False accusations come at the expense of your integrity.
A few days ago:
We saw protests.
We saw people with semi automatic weapons in their state capitals,
demanding. begging pleading with their governors, courts, legislators to let them go back to work.
No buildings were burned, no police cars smashed, no one was killed, I do nto think anyone was injured, no property was damaged.
THAT is protesting.
What we see now is RIOTING.
We have listened for years as those on the left ranted about the danger of right wing violence. That Trump was baiting White Supremecists to engage in violence.
We have heard every disturbed gunmen reframed as political violence.
Look at outside.
This is real violence. It is not from the right.
There are no crosses burning.
There are no alt-right militias raging out of control.
Nor is this happening in Red states and cities.
Is this left wing antifa instituted violence – I do nto know.
Antifa is certainly involved.
Is it the rage of black people over the killing of a black man in a democrat controlled city ?
I do not know what it is, but I know what it is not.
It has nothing to do with Trump, or republicans or conservatives.
“The rage was understandable, but this was looking more and more like a national uprising. ”
I absolutely totally completely agree.
But the violence is ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I would be joining the protesters if the protests were actually peaceful.
“From the right: the police get sick of dealing with black miscreants on a daily basis, and the rioters were simply revealing their true nature as savages. The protests were just an excuse to steal free stuff. And why do we never hear about all the white victims of police killings? (Well, that last question is a valid one: why do we never hear about the white victims of police killings? Would they spoil the narrative?)”
Honestly Rick ? These are actually responses you are getting ?
I follow lots of people accross the political spectrum on Twitter,
And I am not seeing any defense of Chauvin. The most I am seeing is that Floyd might not have been suffocated. He STILL died in police custody while they ignored has calls for help.
When you put handcuffs on someone you take from them the ability to care for themselves, and you take on the duty to do so yourself.
At the very least Chauvin AND the other cops that looked on are guilty of criminally negligent homocide.
Regardless, I am not seeing the right defending Chauvin. I am not hearing the right engaged in racism.
The current theme on the right – the conspiracy theory that MIGHT be true, is that the violence is all WHITE outside agitators from Antifa.
Trump is blaming Antifa – atleast partly correctly, and democratic mayors – atleast partly correctly.
I am seeing those on the right blaming the lockdown – essentially saying that shutting down the economy was hardest on minorities and that with no money no job and nothing to do and no hope of that changing soon the Floyd murder was the spark that lit the gasoline that democrats had spread all over.
I do think that the lockdown was a significant factor in this. At the very least making it far worse. And that blacks and minorities are correct in concluding that however quickly the economy recovers and however fast jobs return – and we all hope that will be quick, that THEY will be last.
I also hope this should end the nonsense that the lockdown made things better, that it saved lives that there economic costs must be paid.
Look out your window at cities that are burning. That is the cost that must be paid.
Yep, those were actual responses. To be fair, they didn’t exactly excuse Chauvin’s actions. One conservative friend, though, sympathized with police who have to deal with chronic violence and lawlessness in black neighborhoods — and I see his point. Then he referred to the criminals as “savages” — an unfortunate turn of phrase (even though I’ve seen several videos of attacks by blacks on innocent people, black as well as white, that could easily be described as “savage.”) Needless to say, my conservative friend got a thorough tongue-lashing from some of my left-leaning friends. I stayed out of it.
I think your criticism of conservatives is overbroad. And I am not reading your email, but when you further explain it, what is being did does nto match what I read you saying.
The fact that no one is Defending Chauvin is a big deal.
I see a TINY faction on the right noting Floyd likely had a heart attack rather than chocked.
That does not change much. Chauvin is still responsible and most people even on the right get that.
I am not happy with the overall behavior of the police. But conservatives defending cops generally is not some gigantic disconnect from reality.
You noted many statistics that support the police. I have noted that police violence generally has been trending down for a long time. Those are good things and we should celebrate.
I think that many conservatives do not grasp that there is still a serious problem with our police. I do not personally think it is mostly racial. I think it stems from the fact that police have become too much an occupying army in the poor communities. Those communities think of the police that way. The police think of themselves that way. And that is bad.
And conservatives do not understand that.
But I do not see conservives selling grand false naratives here.
Those on the left are.
There are absolutely clearly looters and violent actors in this.
It is always true that those who resort to violence take the focus off of legitimate peaceful protestors.
I am far less disturbed by the fact that conservatives can not see the legitimate protest hiding behind the violence than that those on the left are excusing the violence because there is a basis for legitimate protest.
Even Trump has said that Chauvin’s actions appear to be very bad.
Rick, I appreciate that you have taken the time to write,. I am appalled by the Floyd’s death and have empathy for the many protests. I have always wondered why riots so often destroy the neighborhoods the rioters inhabit. Relative to much of the current destruction, that is not the case. Either rioters have become more savvy or something is being directed from afar. Given the governments vast ability to decipher social media I suspect we will learn more. That won’t bring back Mr. Floyd. What a sad state of affairs.
Thanks, KP. I didn’t name Antifa specifically, although I’d be surprised if they weren’t involved in instigating some of the more destructive activity. You’d think they’d know, though, that burning and looting would make the black protesters look bad.
Of course, I’d also bet that much of the burning and looting was done without instigation from outside the communities. I remember being appalled by the sight of black rioters in Baltimore (during the Freddie Gray riots) torching their own neighborhoods and businesses. I called it “urban suicide.”
Why hasn’t the possibility of Russian manipulation been discussed? It is election year, and they have been known to mess with us before.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/06/putin-american-democracy/610570/
Because most of us are not bat shit crazy.
Does Russia try to sew discord ? Absolutely, all over.
Guess what ? It is free speech.
How many people do you know that have been “influenced” by Russia ?
Do you honestly beleive that any voters changed their votes in 2016 as a consequence of the stupid FB adds featuring Clinton, Trump, Sanders – most of which happened AFTER the election ?
Can you find me a single voter that will say that But for some Russian FB add, they would have voted for Clinton ?
How is it we are going to stop Russia from “influence” – aka free speech ?
If you call this an act of war – you are going to war with the country with the most nukes in the world.
And what of that Russian influence – turns out the head of Crowdstrike testified in congress,
he could not ti the DNC hacks to the Russians, Nor did he have any evidence that the DNC emails were released as a result of those hacks.
So there is another nutjob Russian narative down the drain.
And what of the ICA report that Putin favored Trump ?
Turns out the primary evidence for the ICA was the steel Dossier which is now throughly debunked as mostly Russian disinformation. So the most dramatic proven instance of Russia meddling in our election was the GRU feeding HFA fake opo research on Trump.
Regardless, we now also have declassified memo’s and emails and testimony, turns out that below the “7th floor” or the CIA, NSA, DNI, FBI actual intelligence analysts had concluded that Putin favored Clinton, he could work with her, and her policies were much more favorable to Russia.
So there is another nutjob Russian narative down the drain.
And if foreign persuasion in US campaigns is intolerable – why is John Oliver allowed to lampoon US politics ? Why can the Guardian print editorials on US presidential campaigns ?
What of VOA ? Or Radio Free Europe ? If the Russia attempting to influence the US is a war crime, then what of the US doing the same ? The US has sponsored Coups – as recently as the Coup in Ukraine. But there is a long list. We have blessed political assassinations.
There is nothing that Russia does that we do not do – often on a far larger scale.
I read about the current protests and riots.
Antifa and anarchists symbols are all over. And purportedly the violence and looting are all driving by antifa – or false flag white supremecists ?
Does it matter ? If someone is looting, or shooting or burning – arrest them.
Sort the politics out later.
Regardless, is there someone who thinks that Richard Spensor or any other white supremecist is capable of conceiving to infiltrate BLM and foment violence as False Flag AntiFa ? If you want to go looking for that, fine by me. But have you ever met a white supremecist ? These are not sophisticated planners, and these are definitely not people who can successfully go under cover with their political opponents.
Can we return to sanity ? Everything is not Russia’s fault.
Do you understand that the average congressional race spend more money that Russia purportedly spent on the 2016 election ? If 3:1 spending advantage of tens of millions of dollars resulted in a double digit loss in CA25 – why do you think a pitance from Russia is going to tip a presidential election ?
I responded to you post, but I want you to know that whether I agree or not, you are welcome here.
“Another adjustment: white police victims are more likely than blacks to have been armed, so the percentage of unarmed black victims rises still higher in relation to white victims.”
Source please. I have never heard this before. All the data I have says that the rates of violence with guns are RADICALLY higher among hispanics and blacks.
I would expect that it blacks commit more crimes of violence with guns that would also be more likely to be killed by cops more frequently and be more likely to have guns when they do.
The gun ownership in this country is radically disproportionately white,
but the gun violence in this country is radically disproportionately black.
Dave: The Guardian did a 2015 study breaking down US police killings and arrests by race, based on police reports. Apparently minorities (they didn’t separate blacks from Latinos or other minorities) represented 47% of all people killed by police but 63% of unarmed people killed by police. That would imply that relatively more whites than minorities were armed when killed by police. I had seen a similar stat before, a few years ago and was as surprised as you, since gun violence is more prevalent among blacks. Here’s the link to the article from Vox quoting and graphing the data: https://www.vox.com/identities
Thank you for the information. I am surprised at that result.
It seems counter intuitive to me.
But the data is what it is.
Rick, MOST of the statistics you cited are the same as I have seen.
I do think there is a very important story here, though the racial component is weaker than the left makes it.
While we should celebrate the actual fact that police violence has been declining for decades. At the very same time. We have a cultural problem with our policing.
Specifically the police culture.
Read Radley Balko’s “The rise of the Warrior Cop”
Increasingly policing through out the country is done by people who see themselves as soldiers in a foreign country. not members of the community they serve.
It is likely this attitude shows far more in Compton than in Malibu
Making it look racial – and maybe to some extent it is.
But when SWAT raids with battering rams, flash bang grenades and m16’s are everyday occurances – and Balko will document for you how incredibly common they are in the country.
Not your community or mine, But definitely the communities of these “protestors”.
We will not solve the problems of crime in poor communities until we make the police part of those communities – not storm troopers coming from outside.
I think of all the beautiful and powerful words like “violence begets violence and hate begets hate” by MLK, but knowing these truths does not ease the pain nor does it shed much light on what specific actions to take in countering hate with love. I did not watch the video but what I read was that police officer kept his knee on the neck for three minutes after Mr. Floyd stopped responding. Makes me sick thinking about that. In other news, Scotus emboldens those who want to erode more of our freedom, and promoting more of a police state, by ruling in favor of a California law limiting the amount of people that can attend a church at one time. Mike Hatcher
Roberts opinion – like most roberts opinions was utter nonsense.
He completely disregarded the precident and the constitution.
The argument – when he can not have failed to mis but that he ignored was that this is NOT about emergencies. It was about disparate treatment.
CA can prevent church services – but only if they prevent ALL similar gatherings.
They did not, and therefore they were treating church differently, which they can not constitutionally do.
Roberts could give a F about the constitution. He is like every.other politician. Screw the constitution, I am more concerned with my legacy and that of the ROBERTS COURT!
The looting and burning of our cities has nothing to do with George Floyd. There was mass agreement among Americans that his death was a travesty, caused by a bad cop. He is forgotten in the midst of an insurrection.
The Biden campaign is funding the bail money for the rioters.
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/elections/multiple-biden-campaign-staffers-reportedly-donate-organization-pays
I chose the above source, rather than the NYT or other mainstream outlets, which are reporting the same thing, because 1) it’s not behind a paywall and 2) it is more straighforward and not weasel-worded.
How do we explain that the presumptive Democrat candidate’s “staff ” is supporting violence and insurrection?
“A Biden spokesman told Reuters that the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee stands against cash bail as a “modern day debtors prison,” though the spokesman did not answer inquires about if the campaign coordinated the donations, Reuters reported.”
Why is the Democrat Party’s candidate for president, funding bail for violent rioters?”
Call me a conspiracy theorist.
It’s called naked pandering, Priscilla — one of Biden’s foremost skills, unfortunately. (Trump’s, too.) If Biden isn’t careful, his misplaced sympathies will alienate moderate voters like me.
Perhaps, pandering is the life-blood of politicians, that’s for sure.. Although, frankly, I don’t know if Biden, himself, is fully aware of what’s going on. His ‘campaign,’ as it were, is a sort of zombie sham, which trots him out periodically, to try and convince us all that we have not, in fact entered into a post-democratic, revolutionary phase of anti-Trump.
Recall that, only a few weeks ago, Biden claimed that Trump would try to “delay” the election. https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/24/politics/joe-biden-trump-delay-presidential-election/index.html
It seemed like something of a non-sequitur at the time, shrugged off by most as the usual anti-Trump hysteria of the left. Since then, we have heard the constant refrain that we must have mail-in voting, or, as Pelosi calls it, “voting from home.”
It was going to be too dangerous to stand in line to vote during the pandemic (not too dangerous to stand in line at the grocery store, or the liquor store, however).
But voting, the way Americans have done it for over two centuries? Much too dangerous.
I am reading that many on the right are calling on Trump to bring the military into this, to stop the burning of America’s cities. And, what would likely result from that?
And by saying “anti-Trump,” I know I sound like some fan-girl naif, Rick.
But, I don’t believe that this is so much about Trump himself, as it is about what he represents, and about the endgame of these riots.
My usual optimism is being sorely tried.
This is going to be a factor in the election.
It is going to polarize us further on racial lines.
If the police arrest someone during a riot – why would ANYONE want to generally expidite the return to the streets while the rights are going on of those already involved in looting and violence ?
Aren’t they exactly the people we want off the streets ?
Atleast wait until after the violence subsides before bailing them out
Rick, first there has been one death, a security guard at a business in Oakkand. He, and others were inside the business while demonstrations were happening, someone in an SUV came along and began firing into the store. He was hit in the chest and died.
As for first steps to begin improving, police need to be held responsible for actions. Some, like Chauvin, are shielded from discipline. He had 3 shootings and 18 complaints, none resulting in discipline. Time bomb waiting to go off. Unions should not have so much power.
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/05/minneapolis-police-union-president-kroll-george-floyd-racism/?fbclid=IwAR22BOXNoF4qOLSZLhLqOcXCa2kF3HgMqxjAZvzaFlEo2HRS6cWzsbbMKDE
Only 5% of cops ever get brutality complaints and most are handled. Those not handled are the ones ending like tgis and gives all cops a black eye.
Ron: I figured there would be fatalities at some point. Police really do need to be trained and disciplined more effectively than in the past. Maybe that’s the one good thing that will emerge from this awful week.
Anyone wonder how this will turn out?
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-mayor-daughter-protest-arrest-20200601-ao3yphgrprfoth5r2aiqzcumtq-story.html
I did not realize that the Biden campaign is paying the bail money for the rioters. That is extremely disturbing. I just want to say that I appreciate all that you have said in this article. It does seem that civilization is about to collapse. Tragically, mnay people (most are good-intentioned) accept the premise that police brutality is focused upon the Black community when in reality the statistics prove that the situation is quite different. Heather MacDonald has written a couple of books on this subject and has the statistics to prove that the police tend to avoid confrontations with Blacks because every confrontation goes viral. Whenever I have presented these statistics to these people, they refuse to accept them. In so doing, the violence which is present in all Black communities throughout the world will never be overcomed.
The above anonymous is Savannah Jordan.
There are serious problems with policing in our country.
I think the problem is not so much brutality, but that increasingly the Police are completely divorced from the communities they serve. This is not so much driven by individual officers, but increasingly by policy.
I recomended Balko’s book on the militarization of the police.
McDonald’s information is excellent, but all it does is refute the claim of systemic racism.
It does not address the fact that policing itself has become disconnected from the communities served.
Right now in some sommunities we may need to send in the national guard – because the people in those communities hate their police, and because the police hate the people in their communities.
Dave: The mutual animosity between police and their communities is a major obstacle to solving our law enforcement problems. I don’t know how we solve it, though. I think urban police become hardened when they have to deal with criminals on a daily basis. I’d hate to think that we need to use only black officers to police black communities, but it might come to that. Of course, then we have more segregation… more “us. vs. them.”
More Minority police officers have demonstrated some positive benefits in the past, but they are not the cure.
I would note the problems are much worse in urban areas.
Suburban and rural cops are often assholes – particularly to outsiders,
But the view themselves as members of the communities they protect,
In urban areas the police see themselves as a group, and the communities they server as others, outsiders.
In suburban and rural areas the insider outsider line is drawn to include the community.
I think the differences between urban and suburban police is like changes we see within many companies. As companies, including healthcare, merge, grow, get bigger, the environment changes. The leadership becomes removed, the structure becomes infected by fiefdoms, the workers look to third parties for power in job security and reward for work.
The suburban police officer has greater access to the Chief. The power of the unions are less. The working conditions are better. In many instances, community policing is much greater. And in the past 10 years, use of community review boards has grown. When something questionable occurs, that board made up of selected members of the community by the community, review details of cases along with the police leadership. People trust to determinations of these boards.
Little of this is found in urban forces where the officers look at captain’s in precincts and not the Chief or commissioners as “their leader” because those individuals dont change with political leadership changes. Blue Bloods Commissioner Reagan is fiction. Community policing is difficult. Community review boards looked at as another city agency because investigators are paid employees, not volunteers, that protect police.
Suburban police are not perfect.
But they either live in the communities the serve or ones like them
They think of themselves as members of that community and of the members of the community as like them. When they pull someone over or get a call to deal with a teen,
they do not know for certain if the person they are dealing with – or their parents are trouble for them.
These and many similar issues have nothing to do with unions or oversight boards – not that those have no value.
At the institutional lever, the Fed’s have been foisting military weapons on the Police – Biden is quite litterally part of this for a long long time.
It is not just that police have SWAT teams and APC’s and flash bangs and M16’s – though the police will find a way to use the equipment they have – hence the vast increase in no knock swat raids. But these weapons change the attitude of the officers toward the people. They change attitudes even for officers not on SWAT teams.
So SWAT. You have a nut case that enters a business, shoots a couple people, security traps him inside protecting others, he has multiple guns, threatens 15 hostages, locks down the doors to the area he is in. What does Dave do. Does he want SWAT, does he want a psychiatrist negotiator, does he want patrol officers trying to take him prisioner, other?
I could be very wrong, but I dont think SWAT units are the problem. They did not cause Watts, Rodney King, Ferguson, NY City choke hold, George Floyd. Yes, there have been mistakes with raids, but those same mistakes would have been made if 20 patrol officers broke down doors of mistaken residents. And deaths may be greater given the training being less or none existent in situations like that. SWAT officers train constantly on when to shoot and not shoot. Even the U.K. has SWAT type teams when police dont carry weapons.
“So SWAT. You have a nut case that enters a business, shoots a couple people, security traps him inside protecting others, he has multiple guns, threatens 15 hostages, locks down the doors to the area he is in.”
How many times in a year does that happen in any given city ?
In the scenario you have described – which I do not think has ever happened, conflicts resembling this are rare and end quickly. Heavily armed active shooters – even with hostages typically last a few minutes, and they know that will be the case going in. There goal is to kill as many people as possible before law enforcement arrives – not before SWAT arrives, but before someone else with a gun. It is damn near impossible to continue once there is someone hunting you. You either have to stop killing and take a defensive posture, or you will be dead very shortly.
Now if you take a defensive posture – that means you are not a mass killer, which means if anyone was killed so far it was mostly not deliberate – because your goal is not killing it is money or drugs or something like that. And then you goal is to get out – alive preferably without getting arrested – so criminals try to flee before the police arrive.
But lets say you are a robber who has fracked up – you got 15 hostages, and you can not get out. This is already over. It is merely a question of time. If you kill one hostage – SWAT team or not the police are coming in, and this ends immediately. And if you do not kill anyone – the police have more than enough time to fly the FBI HRT in. So we need a single SWAT team to cover the entire US.
Finally – outside the movies I am not aware of a single instance ever where a SWAT team has dealt with any permutation of the scenario you posited.
The scenario or somethings close to it happen – rarely, but they are ended by ordinary cops within minutes, because no one is waiting for SWAT to deal with an active shooter.
“I could be very wrong, but I dont think SWAT units are the problem.”
The problem is not SWAT literally – it is the attitude change that has occured as Police increasingly see themselves as soldiers – as invaders on hostile ground and not protectors of their community. SWAT is the tip of that sphere.
This also plays both ways. SWAT raids occur all the time. They not only terrify the shit out of their targets but almost anyone nearby. When you hear doors busted down and flash banhs and M16’s three rooms down the corridor or accross the street – you are terrified.
Next you will probably never get video of a SWAT raid – the police will not let anyone close enough and they happen too fast.
That does not mean they do not have a terrifying effect on the community.
Choke holds start riots because they are something an already terrified community can get video of.
Serving a drug warrant is going to be stressful and dangerous no matter what.
But a day time knock and anounce raid is far safer and far less scarry for everyone.
Drug dealers and criminals do not get into gun fights with the police.
They are not stupid. It is unlikely you live through pulling a gun on a cop.
If your gun is 10 times as capable as his – the copes are still killing you. It is not a video game, you do not get a do over if you kill 10 cops before you die. Merely shoot at a police officer – and you are dead.
Police officers get shot one of two times:
The first is a late night no knock raid what the people being raided have no idea they are being hit by a cop. You pull a gun on a cop and shoot – when you think they are a burglar not a cop. And often you do that when you are an innocent person defending your home.
Lots of people are in jail for shooting cops in no knock raids where the police hit the wrong location and nothing was found. More are dead.
“SWAT officers train constantly on when to shoot and not shoot.”
Only in the movies.
In the real world the ordinary gun owner has many many hours more gun training than the police. The exceptions are those who moved from military combat to police. Even cops that are ex-military but not combat are as a rule poorly trained with guns.
Worse SWAT teams are self selecting for exactly the type of officers you do not want.
Please read Radley Balko’s book on this
It covers all aspects of this starting in the 60’s to the present.
It is damning to republicans. It is damning to democrats.
I think the only democrat who comes out a hero is Sam Irvin – if you remember him.
It is damning to the police. It is stories backed up by data, it is myths thoroughly debunked.
Prior to SWAT teams serving warrants was far less dangerous for all.
True, Savannah — people will believe what they want to believe. That’s how narratives (like the genocide of black people) gain popularity. People choose their news sources based on their existing biases, so of course they choose biased sources.
Every bad act is not systemic racism.
Every poorly designed system is not systemic racism.
I have my own long list of complaints regarding policing,
those complaints overlap on those of minorities.
But I see little racism in the causes
What a terrible year, its nearest competitor is 1968. Race riots in 68 killed dozens, and that was only one of the horrific events of 1968, the tet offensive, the assassinations, Nixon, the Chicago riots. Some said Apollo 8 “saved” 1968. Much as I love the Apollo program nothing could save 1968 or bring back its dead.
We have evolved a lot since then, we are a better place in many ways. I just read the incendiary words of Stokely Carmichael after King was assassinated and I can compare them to the words of BLM today. Two different worlds.
My personal theme is continually that vast non-living impersonal forces that are not intelligent or deliberate and are apolitical and amoral direct the trajectory of human events. In this case the vast force is the ability of people to do things they would not easily do if they are part of a group. A person’s group affiliation is an incredibly powerful force. One innocent example is Jehovah’s witnesses coming in pairs to irritate people on Saturday. Few would have the nerve to do it alone.
In this situation first it was the cops, they have their own brotherhood and 3 cops really Could watch quietly and apparently dispassionately while this happened. Telling their fellow cop he was in the wrong and should stop was unthinkable. I am totally unsurprised they did not stop him. Did anyone stop Machine Gun Calley or the many like him?
Then the rioters (a different group than the peaceful protesters). They had a group mission to perform and they performed it, to sow chaos and smash things. These are sick people, but their sickness becomes quite a lot more powerful when they find their fellows and band together.
Finally, as I read the comments of Americans about this, partisan, politically active people generally see that this set of events just goes to prove their ideology and discredit the ideology of the other side. More group think.
Well, I just did that myself above, I saw this as an example that my point of view is yet again correct. This is an example, as I said, of my belief that vast impersonal forces direct human events. See, it fits my model. We all have our models. I am not claiming to be different, although as far as I know I am not part of a group who believe this philosophy of the vast impersonal forces, its just me.
I know we naturally fall into groups, packs, we have been doing it since before we were primates. But, I do very much fear ideological groups. Groups based on ideology are by definition at war. In war, the enemy is inhuman scum who you feel no pity for. This was explained to our Company by Sargent Kayzie (Crazie Kayzie) on the first day of boot camp at Fort Benning ( It was, I think, 1983). He had served two tours in Nam and was here to tell us that we had no reason to fear having any doubts about being able to kill the enemy. When the time would come we would see an inhuman MF who didn’t even look like us and easily pull the trigger. I still remember his words clearly. What he said is not always true but its true often enough to be one of my vast impersonal forces, the pack mentality, and is behind many unthinkable tragedies.
I cannot remember the last time I personally encountered a hateful and crazy person in my daily life. They come out of the woodwork when an event like this fits their purposes.
I am reading very little of the news about this. I just don’t want to be an expert on the latest moment of American grief. I am waiting to see what the story about it will be about it in 3 months or 6 or 12. Perhaps some good will somehow come out of it in the long run, common sense and common decency will get the upper hand perhaps.
I am trying to live my life rationally and enjoyably throughout all this miserable year (or several years). I can say it feels strange to sit down with my classical guitar and work out Clair De Lune as the country is in the throes of yet another time of pain. What else can I do? Can I change it by participating in the political war? I have some cliches to offer, lets all get along, why don’t we? etc. Its the best I can do, be sane and take the long view. I am not about to join one of the political activist armies who see this as the latest proof of their righteousness and the evils of the opposing army.
I am trying to get an honest picture of what is happening.
I go to CNN and MSNBC and I am told the violence is all white supremist infiltrators.
And in video of a reported standing in front of burning buildings and police cars being shredded in front of our eyes I am told this is a peacefull protest.
Elsewhere I am told this is all antifa. I find some videos in various places online.
Some have BLM organizing protests in LA, with the leaders saying do not engage in violence do not confront the police, do not loot. if you do I will tackle you to the ground,
A few streets over a disorganized groups of blacks throwing bottles at police cars and laughing. Further on I see a female college student trying to protect people from looters.
In a different city is video of a young black woman videoing a couple of masked white women panting BLM graffitti on starbucks. She is yelling at them that they are NOT BLM and to stop destroying things because black people will get blamed. In another clip, a bunch of young blacks mostly men have taken a knee infront of a phalanx of police officers in riot gear and they are pleading for them to just get along, that no one is looking for violence, that this is just a protest. This goes on for a while and two officers charger forward and grab, handcuff and slam the speaker into the ground and the rest push forward to break up the protestors,
On to innumerable examples of looters beating the crap our of store owners. Then an assortment of blacks including the Floyd family pleading for people to refrain from Violence.
I see National guardsmenmoving in and comminities welcoming them – they do not trust their own police.
Whatever you want to beleive about this – there is video that will prove what you beleive to be true is true.
If you want to beleive this is about manacing blacks destroying their own communities – you can find evidence to support that. If you want to beleive that the police are storm troopers and are triggering everything – you can find evidence to support that. If you want to beleive the violence is white antifa member infiltrating – there is plenty of evidence to support that. If you want to beleive that this is mostly peaceful protests – you can find evidence to beleive that.
In truth it is everything.
There are many things going on.
Though police violence has been slowly declining over time and the is no evidence of systemic racism, we have spent decades militarizing the police and they are seen justifiably in many communities as invading armies. The police themselve ddo not beleive they are members of the communities they serve. They are outsides, and they see the communities they police as made of exclusively criminals. Those in those communities can not help but be angry at the police. I think the left is entirely wrong in diagnosing the problem. but they are not wrong that there is a problem.
Most police are not bad apples – though the bad apples could not flourish without the silence of the rest.
Mist protestors do not appear to be looters. They too are decent people justifiably angry. But it is also true that many are blind to the bad actions of some of their own.
A surprisingly large portion – but not all of the violence and destruction is being carried out by white people – just the help that minorities need.
I would further note that it appears this is worse because we have trapped working class people in their homes for 2 months. We are seeing signs of light at the end of the tunnel, lockdowns are ending, the economy is showing strong signs of recovery. At the same time – these people out protesting know that the jobs will not all come back, and their jobs will come back last.
Probably the best post you have ever made here, very, very wise.
Thank you.
But none of it should surprise anyone.
Far too often my positions are painted as some far right or trump toadying.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
My views are my own, they strongly track libertarian minarchism, and even more strongly 18th/19th century classical liberalism which is coming in vogue again.
I have absolutely supported the right of anyone to protest – the KKK, BLM, even Antifa.
I actually accept that there is even a point at which violence is actually justified.
We are not anywhere near their yet.
Actual violence by the right or the left today is WRONG.
Regardless, justifiable political violence should we ever get there MUST be targeted at GOVERNMENT. The destruction of private property is NEVER justifiable.
I have universally come out against the militarization of our police – political blame for that is complex as Both sides have fallen over each other pretending to be strongly for law and order. And today we forget that even minority leaders wanted crime and drugs in their communities stopped. We have longer sentences for crack than for powered cocaine because the leaders of the black community were watching crack obliterate a generation.
But generally alot of the mistakes we have made with law enforcement over decades have been driven more by the right than the left. Ir possibly more importantly both parties were complicit, but until recently the right has been unable to see anything wrong.
I am deeply concerned because I expect this is going to result in lots of changes – some of which will be good. But most will not.
Biden has called for an end to Choke holds – Amen. Biden has called for the demilitarization of the police. Amen. Where was he when the police were being militarized ? Leading the charge. I do not want to portray Trump as some hero of justice reform. He is not.
But he actually has a better real world track record – ACTIONS, than Biden. But Trump also has a long history of stupid even bad remarks. Trump took a full page add in the NYT attacking the Central Park 5 long ago. We now know – and really knew at the time, they were innocent. But Trump passed the first positive criminal justice reform – possibly in my lifetime.
Only baby steps but still steps in the right direction. Some of Trump’s pardon’s and commutations have been controversial. But many have been long overdue. Minorities – usually women guilty of minor drug crimes who got incredibly long sentences.
I beleive there are places in this country that the national guard needs brought in.
Not all places. But places where the police have lost the support of their communities.
Places where the current level of violence is too high and the meaningful protest too deficient.
Regardless we must do everything we can to permit protests – even ones we do not agree with. And everything we can to stop the violence – regardless of who is doing it.
I would further note that not only have many of us lost trust in our police – again a theme I have expounded on long before Trump, but we have also lost trust in the MSM.
Those on the left can criticize fox – go ahead. But please do not tell me that MSNBC, CNN, NYT, WaPo are trust worthy, or even close. They are not just lying about Trump and Russia, they are lying about everything. If MSNBC said the sun will rise tomorrow – I would assume it will not. They are so wrong so often.
I am well aware of the problems of Race in this country. Do those effect our policing ?
Probably. But we have problems in policing that have nothing to do with race.
Further we can not be stupid. Just as there is no doubt we have policing problems.
There is also no doubt that violence generally, and police violence specifically are WAY down over the long term.
The most fundamental test of our policing is do the children in the community a police force serves think of the police as their friend or their enemy.
Well, you two coming to a meeting of minds gives me hope for the immediate future.
In all seriousness, both posts, as well as Rick’s original post, are as meaningful and wise as anything I have read.
What is going on is so very dispiriting. 1968 seems like a piker.
If my post did not make it clear, I am confused. Yes, depressed, but also hopeful at the same time.
This is NOT 1968.
This is NOT Rodney King
This is NOT Fergesson.
I am seeing MANY positive examples by many protestors. ‘
I have my ideological disagreements with BLM – but absolutely they should protests, and quite often I agree with them that there is a problem, I do not agree with their diagnosis or their solutions.
But there are people who are driving this to violence.
I do not know if the naratives on who is driving the violence are true. I suspect they are half truths. I am guessing but I think the violence is coming from two groups. One essentially of minority criminals – who were criminals before this, before the lockdown and are just looking at this as an opportunity to go wild. The other is progressive elites who once again as in the 60’s felt political violence was justified. These are the people our BEST colleges are producing. Are the Antifa ? Maybe not, but they are clueless about political violence.
I would note that before George Floyd these are the same people who birned down berkeley when Milo came to speak. They have come out for this, and they are behind lots of the violence. I think Antifa is a factor – again they have been violent throughout the country for years. Why would they not take this as an oportunity for more violence ?
Yes, it says something about the discord in our society that I have to come here for a “Kumbaya” moment. Facebook is a firestorm of angry posts and memes. Cable news stations are fanning the flames, of course (always good for ratings — hey, I’m watching). But few of us, present company excepted, seem to grasp the ambiguities, uncertainties and misinformation circulating in the air. I think you nailed it, Dave. And Priscilla, I agree that 2020 has already surpassed 1968 on the national misery scale. (And we still have to face the upcoming presidential election!)
The mistakes, the violence the media pandering, the assorted groups whether it is MSM, or Trump or Biden or Antifa all obscure that there are serious issues that these protests are seeking to raise.
I do not agree with some of what they say.
I do not agree with most of their solutions.
I do not agree with their diagnosis of the problem.
But the protests are completely legitimate if the violence is not,
and they point to problems we need to address.
Ah, Roby — I didn’t even see your original post until now. (I was working my way up from the bottom.) Yes, you nailed it, too — group behavior has been responsible for far too many outrages in human history. I think it’s the echo chamber effect: the extremists have the loudest and most convincing voices; if we listen to them, they stir up our animal instincts and we shed our civilized veneer. We can see it happening now.
Rick;
Alot of what we are hearing people say is very wrong – and we should say so.
But speech is not violence, not looting, not burning.
If you are not offended by what CNN says – keep watching.
If you are not offended by Biden’s deep hypocrisy – vote for him.
If Trump offends you so badly – vote for Biden.
but those looting and burning are responsible for themselves.
There are way too many of them, while at the same time – this is NOT LA after Rodney King or 1968
“Far too often my positions are painted as some far right or trump toadying.”
Yes, you have consistently stood up for the positions you claim to have stood up for. I have seen and noted that. You are quite a study in contradictions.
Unfortunately Dave you yourself are to blame for giving the impression of far right or trump toadying positions, you have that aspect as well. While you have constantly excoriated the left in every form from Stalin to my old liberal mother and repeatedly claimed that they are barely different you have also continually defended and minimized right wing violence and right wing actions.
I loath the loony left. I loath PC. If any one here doubts that, well, that is blindness. The loony left exist in large and growing numbers and are very destructive. No argument from me.
But, how many right wing inspired nuts have shot up or burned down black churches, shot up synagogues, even blown up a federal building full of children? Going a little further back How many lynching have their been in America, how many murders of civil rights workers in the south? That actual right wing racist violence and terroristic behavior is part of our history and it still has its adherents today, who make their bloody statements fairly regularly, much more regularly than left wingers actually killing anyone. I am not defending the lefties but they very rarely kill. They intimidate, they can be violent, form an out of control mob, they love to break shit. Its vile, they should be in jail.
The racist right wingers do not define America, but they are American and it still seems a far off dream that they will vanish into history completely.
If you are interested, look up Max Misch, a Vermont white nationalist who publicly stalked, harassed and threatened a black woman in the Vermont Legislature in progressive Vermont itself until she simply had enough and resigned having received no protection or help from Vermont police or legal system. Finally the outrage of protesters got the authorities to go after him but only he had been brazenly and outrageously destructive for a long period up till that happened. That is a side of America that you have very consistently downplayed.
Now, I grant you have been very clear about condemning Arizona sheriff Arpaio, so Bravo for that. But that has been the exception.
I very much liked your post above because it was objective and honest. I would like many more of your posts if they were similarly objective and saw the evils of both sides objectively. That has not been your pattern.
There is a constant ongoing feedback between two sets of ugly tendencies in the US one racist group on the right whose members occasionally commit atrocities in recent history and one left group who, in reaction to the disgusting raciel history in America have gone far beyond the limits of sanity in their opposition. You see only one of these groups as dangerous.
Quite a few of your positions are the same as those held by the far right and their support often comes from sources I would call right wing conspiracy sites.
I would love to see more of your objective side. I suspect you will now go after the loony left and minimize the harms and actions of the racist right, the actual bloody deaths and terror they cause.
Please, prove me wrong in the future.
Robby, my positions do not contradict each other.
There is no consequential contradiction in my values, or principles.
What you see as contradictions is that I am not left or right. I am libertarian or classical liberal.
My positions are not driven by Trump or Biden, but by principles not people. By principles, not feelings.
There is no contradiction.
“Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.”
Ayn Rand
When I find contradictions in my posistions – something is wrong. I have made an error, and I will find and correct it.
You think I am an enigma. I do not understand at all. My positions on matters involving government are easily predicted. That you are unable to do so, that I am a “study in contradictions” to you, to me means that you can not be using facts logic, reason to arrive at YOUR decisions.
I can often predict your positions – but I do not use logic to do so, I use emotions.
that is perfectly acceptable in your own life. But you may not make choices that involve the use of force against others based on emotions. It is a violation of their free will, their rights, the social contract.
You constantly loop back to Trump.
Do you expect our presidents or politicians to be perfect people ?
If you do, then no president or politician will ever satisfy you.
Neither Trump, nor anyone elected to public office will ever meet my criteria.
Most of the first 10 US presidents owned other human beings.
No president will ever be what I want. But I can and must live with each and some I can do so easier than others.
I can live with Trump easier than Obama or Bush. I can live with Trump easier than Biden, or Clinton,
I do not even think that is a close question.
Does Trump yank the chains of emotional people – absolutely.
But I am not looking for a president that “feels my pain”. I am looking for one that is the least likely to use force to infringe on my rights and those of others.
Are that myriads of people I would pick over Trump by those criteria ? Absolutely.
But of the people who have any chance of winning an election – Trump is the least likely to use the power of government to infringe on my or others rights.
He might stomp on your emotional buttons. I would prefer a president that did not do that.
But that is far lower in importance than infringing on rights.
Can we do better ? Absolutely – but no one is discussing a better choice.
“While you have constantly excoriated the left in every form from Stalin to my old liberal mother”
Absolutely. The modern left is immoral. Further the history of the left is a river of blood, from the french revolution through Pol Pot.
The very best the left can do it the benign big government types that produced Britian in the 70’s and Sweden in the 80’s, both of which were disasterous if not bloody. Britian very nearly drove itself into the 2nd world.
There are no examples of good outcomes when the left gains power.
Actual liberals – absolutely. I have no qualms with the champions of liberty.
But they are abandoning the left.
equality and liberty are irreconcilable. We are equal only in the obligation of government to protect our liberty. Any other effort to make us equal MUST make us less that we are. Take any atribute in which we are not equal – we can not raise those with less, we can only take from those with more. We can not make musicians of the tone deaf, athletes of the uncordinated, geniuses of the intellectually challenged.
But we can make the smart stupid, we can hobble the talented. And that is exactly what the left seeks to do.
Right now we have white people kneeling and confessing their priviledge to minorities.
That is not an effort to raise up minorities it is the same nonsense we saw with the USSR and Mao except race rather than class based.
Regardless, we know as fact that leftism – in whatever form you wish does not work. It does not work historically, it does not work in theory, it does not work logically, it does not work morally.
So Yes, I am going to condemn it.
“I loath the loony left. I loath PC.”
But you are OK if they are not looney or PC ?
Numerous studies have found that for every 10% increase int he size of government the rate of increase in standard of living declines by 1%. While there is substantial data supporting that – over decades and centuries and myriads of countries, it is also demonstrable as a matter of economics and of logic. Government is less efficient than free markets.
Forget left right – does not follow from that that is you favor increasing government, you favor making all people less well off than they would be otherwise ?
In what world is that moral ? Is the right quite often advocates for big government ? Absolutely and when it is, I oppose it. But the left is ALWAYS advocates of big government.
Entirely independent of ideology that is immoral, that is theft – not just directly from those who must pay for it, but from all of us whose lives are improved by rising standards of living.
If you are for big government – you are immoral, you are on the wrong side of history, and facts, and economics, and logic and reason. I do not care whether you think you are on the right side of your emotions.
My total distaste for the left is fully consistent with both my principles, and history, and logic, and facts.
“Now, I grant you have been very clear about condemning Arizona sheriff Arpaio, so Bravo for that. But that has been the exception.”
No Robby, it has not been.
I have condemened Trump when he has sought to make government bigger and more powerful. I have repeatedly condemned the response to C19 – by both left and right.
I have condemned this stimulus.
In some areas I want to condemn Trump but it is hard to do.
Trumps immigration positions are bad – but those of democrats are worse.
Give me a better choice. And please do not say Biden (or any of the 12 dwarves running in the primaries).
I have fought Ron over trade polices – but for all that is wrong with Trump’s – please provide a democratic position that is better.
I am not happy that we are still throwing our weight arround in the mideast.
But give me a democrat that would do better ?
I think we have to go all the way back to Carter to find a president besides Trump that did not invade something. Even Reagan invaded Grenada.
I would note that while I have consistently opposed the BLM and leftist nonsense about systemic racism – whether the police or elsewhere in govenrment in institutions, and I am willing to give police credit for a long term trend of improvement, at the same time LONG BEFORE today I have been critical of police brutality, or police violence, of militarizing the police of allowing the police to violate our rights.
Sherriff Joe is merely one of few examples of republicans engaged in brutal, militarized policing.
We are burning our cities as we speak – not over Sherriff Joe, as despicable as he is, but over the misconduct of police in the bluest and often leftists parts of the country.
The police are not at war with blacks in montgemery or Selma (to my knowledge), this war is in Berkeley and SF and LA and Chicago, and Atlanta, and NYC
Please name a place that has race riots or protests right now that is not entirely run by the left, and mostly run by minorities ?
Leftism – not liberalism, not even conservatism fails ALWAYS, and it does so usually bloodily.
“I very much liked your post above because it was objective and honest.”
The vast majority of my posts are as objective as humans can be and they are all honest.
What you liked was that it was an appeal to emotion.
Guess what ? We all experience strong emotions.
We may only make decisions that involve the use of force against others based on facts.
“There is a constant ongoing feedback between two sets of ugly tendencies in the US one racist group on the right whose members occasionally commit atrocities in recent history”
BUNK!
We live in the lease racist country in the least racist moment in history (except for tomorow).
Are we perfect ? No! and we will never be.
Frankly I see far more racism on the left than the right.
TNM did not go into a spitball battle over “the Two Karen’s in central park”.
Regardless, the left’s evidence of “racism” today is:
A white (and Asian) officer in a very blue city run by blacks.
A progressive white woman in one of the most left leaning cities in the country.
Myriads of other instances of bad conduct by police in cities that lean way left, with left governments, and usually minority governments.
If we catalog all the purported racist incidents in the past 4, 8, 20 years – hardly a conservative will be in site.
“There is a constant ongoing feedback between two sets of ugly tendencies in the US one racist group on the right whose members occasionally commit atrocities in recent history and one left group who, in reaction to the disgusting raciel history in America have gone far beyond the limits of sanity in their opposition. You see only one of these groups as dangerous.”
Identify every individual instance of a right wing group or individual engaged in clearly racist violence. And for each one I can identify 3 instances in which Antifa beat up Andrew Ngo.
Assuming that we even accept that these purportedly right wing groups are actually on the right – they are all very socialist, whatever problem they constitute is dwarfed by antifa.
And Antifa is just the extreme tip of the spear.
Charles Murray can not speak at a college without being beaten up.
Either the membership of Antifa is 2/3 of us college students or a large portion of the left has no problems with violence.
Robby, there is no parity here.
Even in Charlotte, a bunch of right wing groups stages a march to preserve confederate statues. During that march they stayed in their designated corridor, were pelted with rocks had urine thrown at them, were fire bombed, had no police protection, and then were not permitted to speak when they arrived and told they had to march back through the same gauntlet, and in your world the fact that one disturbed kid lost it an made a wrong turn into a crowd that beat his car with baseball bats and some morbidly obese protestor had a heart attack is somehow equivalent ?
You think there is some problem with my perception ?
The very people you fear most marched on capitals accross the country – with guns.
No one was killed, no one was shot. nothing was burned. no police cars were destroyed, no one was arrested.
They are not the problem. Get a grip on reality.
No one – absolutely no one is defending the Damon Roof’s, Adam Lanza’s James fieldings.
No One. There are no marches to support them.
Most of these people are nuts not right, but even if they were political, they have no support.
You go apeshit over the way Trump talks – guess what that is how the left has been talking to everyone for decades. I do not like how Trump speaks but I have zero sympathy for the race baiters and liars that he is attacking.
Regardless this is only about Trump in your head.
“Quite a few of your positions are the same as those held by the far right and their support often comes from sources I would call right wing conspiracy sites.”
The facts do not care about your feelings. The facts have no “left/right” to them.
Regardless, Identify the positions I hold that are WRONG!.
That is all that matters.
If I am right about something – it does not matter if Hitler shares that view.
I do not follow these “right wing conspiracy sites” – unless that means RCP, or the rising, or John Solomon, of CNN or MSNBC, or Slate or Medium or Quillette,
Are those the sites you mean ?
What should truly disturb you is that the positions of Alex Jones, and Limbaugh, and Hannity, and Bannon and whatever these right wing conspiracists that you talk about are right disturbingly often. It certainly disturbs me.
At this moment in time the largest government conspiracy I can ever recall being claimed sits infront of us all as an established fact. The tinfoil hat crowd turns out to have been right.
In the real world those who should be condemned are those who have been selling the actual lies for the past 4 years.
And your greatest fear is that my positions according to you track some right wing conspiracy sites ?
All I care is that my positions track the truth – shouldn’t that be what you care about ?
I look at those who have proven to be accurate as credible and those who have not to be untrustworthy. I look at those whose accusations have proven true to have integrity, and those who have made false accusations to lack integrity.
I make those judgements based on FACTS, not labels, not emotions.
What about you ?
“minimize the harms and actions of the racist right, the actual bloody deaths and terror they cause.”
Show me the “racist right” and I will condemn it.
Show me the bloody deaths they have caused ?
When was the last “lynching” in this country ?
What is it that you call “right wing racial violence” in this country ? Would that be Amy Cooper calling the police in Christian Cooper in Central Park
It really is the role of government to step in and punish violence – right or left.
Racist or not.
But shouldn’t we direct our resources where the facts show a problem ?
Look arround you right now. The good news is this is NOT the riots of 1968 or even close.
But the bad news is we are looking at real violence accross the country.
That violence is occuring in the midst of legitimate protests. I support the rights of those protestors just as much as those protesting the lockdowns a week ago.
I support AnyiFa protesting.
But I do not support violence. There are some claims of white nationalist infiltrators trying to embarrass BLM. Find them and I will condemn them.
I think that is also alot of pent up rage – because of the lockdowns. That does not excuse the violence – but that is not some right wing problem.
There is also anger over bad policing. Again this is not in Selma or Montgomery. This is in the left wing bastions of the world. Are the police officers who killed George Floyd Racist ?
I suspect they are most assholes than racist, regardless, wasn’t it the black democrat mayors and city councils jobs to get police forces that were neither assholes not racists ?
Bull Conner was an example of Government racism – ofc. Chauvin ? is an individual asshole, if there is systemic responsibility for him – and I think there is, it is because his brothers in blue turned a blind eye, because his unions protected him, because usually black Police Chiefs with black mayors and black city counsels in black cities with 70% democrats tolerate this. Is there a repoublican in site ? Is there a Neo-Nazi ? a KKK member ? a Far Right conservative ?
Reality Robby.
To paraphrase Obama – “the 60’s is calling and they want their systemic racism tropes back”.
Objective requires seeing things as they are.
Roby, there are four issues I think contributed to whole mess. Tacle these first in the future and some positive change can come.
1. Do away with much of police immunity laws
2. Eliminate most all power of police unions to squelch misconduct complaints. I shared a Mother Earth News article concerning the power the Minneapolis police union has.
3. Never again lock down and force people into restricted living for weeks. Basically putting young men under house arrest builds resentment and resistence, just ready to explode with the right match, this one being a few malcontents hell bent to start something.
4. Politicians have to begin sending consistent messenging. No longer can we have them tell law abiding people it is illegal to gather in public places and churches banned from exercising their right to assemble and pray, but then turn around and say they defend the rights of demonstrators to assemble and demonstrate (not riot).
Ron: I agree with points 1, 2, and 4. As for 3… if the lockdown prevented another 50-100,000 deaths, it will have been worth it. But (of course) moderation should prevail: I seen no reason that parks, golf courses and other spacious public areas should have been off limits. As for churches… they’re asking for trouble if they start packing the pews. I just object to the double standard: defending public political demonstrations while outlawing other types of gatherings.
Rick, we were closed up for weeks in N.C. A week before Gov. Ding Dong started relaxing stay at home and opened some businesses, cases began to spike in N.C. Almost doubling and now a week-10days later over double. So what he was doing did not work because Nursing Homes, residential living and meat packing plants were not addressed until too late. Much of the increase has come from 3-4 meat processing plants, Latinos that live in multi-family residences who have spread it widely in their community. But now Ding Dong says the increase in cases is not really an increase, it is due to more testing because it fits his narrative. First dont go out, now what I did worked.
I have been VERY CONSISTENT in my comments about rights! You can not pick and choose the ones you want to follow. Assembly in a church to pray illegal, then assembly to protest illegal! Why cant people accept that, most being those in blue states.
“if the lockdown prevented another 50-100,000 deaths, it will have been worth”
That is true. The problem is that it did not.
You can not look at the data and conclude that lockdowns were effective.
I will also note that even BEFORE all the lockdowns – the “experts” actually knew the positive effect of lockdowns would be small. Fundimentally they buy time by stretching out the pain
They do not reduce the pain.
it appears increasingly likely that the lockdowns did not even have the effect they were hoped to. The time progression fo C19 seems almost the same everywhere.
Make recomendations to people and let them decide for themselves.
1). Yes, this is a bigger issues than police. The entire judicially constructed construct of qualified immunity must be obliterated.
But there is small chance of this happening.
2). Not just police unions – but all public unions.
Ultimately I do not think government service and unions are compatible.
This area is a problem no matter what. Government has historically been a poor employer, badly behaved. A justification for unions, at the same time politicians do not have the backbone to stand up to powerful interests groups that represent people who vote.
Many elections are decided by a few percent. Teachers unions, police unions AFSME and similar groups have the power to change the outcome of elections. That power CAN NOT be used to negotiate employment terms.
3). I am not prepared to say never. Only that:
It was not justified this time, and it is probably rarely justified.
And that the recent SCOTUS decision by roberts is horrible – not merely for its implication on religious liberty, but on liberty generally.
To the extent that we tolerate “emergency” edicts of government:
They must be shortlived.
It is OK for courts to essentially turn a blind eye to messy public safety edicts for a week or two and then when they expire decide that the issue is moot.
It is absolutely not OK for SCOTUS to decide 2 months after a clearly infringing edict has been issued, on that is not enacted by legislatures, to let that stand because … emergency.
At this time – actually a month ago, Govenors authority to act should have required Legislatures to bless each and every edict.
That does not prevent abuse but is makes it harder.
I think the evidence is damning – the swedish approach was much better.
I hope we have learned from that.
I also beleive that even in an emergency we must err on the side of individual liberty. Even if more people die.
I beleive that liberty will ultimately prevail.
4). absolutely.
Just catching some news while eating lunch. Showed a clip and interview with an LA ( maybe Santa Monica) liquor store ownner(s) after they stopped lootering of their store with long guns (one looked like AR) and 9mm. Rioters moved across street to break into Gold Store and those guys went over and told looters that they would be shot if they started breaking into that store. They left that store alone also.
So where are the gun control liberals bitching about guns now in L.A.? Yes, I know, shoot one of these assholes and the one defending their property would be charged for murder by D.A.’s while the rioters are being let outv after 24 hours.
I would further note that the armed lockdown protestors of a week ago did not loot, destroy property or become violent.
I just read that, in the past 3 months, 6 million guns have been sold.
No question that the lockdown, now followed by riots, has signalled to many Americans that the fabric of our society is breaking down. Coincidentally enough, it is exactly what Marxists and anarchists want. Their position is that America is an evil, racist nation, which must be either fundamentally transformed or completely destroyed.
Just a couple of weeks ago, police were arresting people for opening their “non-essential” businesses and going to closed beaches. Now, they’re being told to stand down while cities are burned and looted.
I hope this is a hoax
I would pretty much bet you that the suburban liberals that live around me, who are cheering on the looters, the rioters, and the anarchists, would change their tune in a heartbeat, if it were their neighborhoods being burned and looted, and if they felt that their lives and the lives of their families. were in danger.
The massive elitism and hypocrisy that drives modern liberalism (do as I say, not as I do) is why I’m opposed to it.
I thought that yesterday’s social media “blackout” was such a perfect example ~ a purely symbolic protest, that made liberals feel good about themselves, without changing a damn thing.
“I would pretty much bet you that the suburban liberals that live around me, who are cheering on the looters, the rioters, and the anarchists”
Not very long ago you made the statement that your idea of political discussion involves a sort of “Do you really believe that?” kind of questioning.
So, I will try. Do you really believe what you wrote? Liberals as a pretty general group cheering on looters, rioters, and anarchists? I am sure you can find some examples of such people, especially reading online commentary, which is a haven for the mentally ill frankly, but I have encountered not a single example of what you are describing in my region and quite the opposite, liberals do not support violence and see that it is wrong and counter productive according to their statements in progressive Vermont. I would be shocked if many liberals exist who are doing what you describe. Finding the worst examples and then saying that they are representative of a broad group is a frequent error that is made in the political war. Do you you want to live in a world where what you said is true? If you looked deeper do you think you might find that your statement is a caricature with some small grain of truth behind it? Yes, Liberals and progs sympathize with urban blacks and the shit they do often actually put up with, and they might go so far as to say that they understand the anger and the frustration. But cheering on looters? Really? Do you really believe that? What percentage of liberals do you think are actually cheering on looters, give me a number.
That would be like me believing that all UVM professors were left wing nut communists back in my time there, when actually it was two young feminist ISO propaganda spouting English faculty and one diehard old marxist who had been opposed in everything he did buy the administration for decades. But those three and their 30 ISO student followers did manage to make so much noise that it seemed like UVM was a haven of the far left. It wasn’t so.
“So, I will try. Do you really believe what you wrote? Liberals as a pretty general group cheering on looters, rioters, and anarchists? ”
Honestly we do not know what to beleive.
When we listen to the leading lights of the press very nearly doing exactly what Priscilla says, then it is not so hard to beleive that it is not hyperbole’
I do not need to read Alex Jones to go to youtube and play clips of CNN and MSNBC reporters and talking heads. And not obscure ones from some local station in podunk,
but the leading lights of the media. The Tappers and Lemon’s and Scarborogh’s and Cuomo’s.
I have consistently refused to use the term “liberal” except in quotes by others.
I am a liberal, Dave Rubin is a liberal, Alan Dershowitz is a liberal.
There are not that many liberals in the world today and they are not really who Priscilla was speaking of.
I beleive she means the left 25% of this country – the majority of the democratic party.
The leading lights of the media.
The pullitzer prize winners.
NYT’s Nikole Hannah-Jones is the pultizer winning creator of the 1619 project.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/06/02/nyts_nikole_hannah-jones_destroying_property_which_can_be_replaced_is_not_violence.html
Is this your liberalism Robby ?
https://www.courant.com/opinion/op-ed/hc-op-glanton-white-america-mirror-george-floyd-0603-20200603-3c6zzlqtajfplmfak5ro7ulzxm-story.html
“Finding the worst examples and then saying that they are representative of a broad group is a frequent error that is made in the political war.”
Brilliant and correct. Too bad you do not stick to it.
You cited without identifying people the number of violent right win indidivuals.
In truth, nearly all these are disturbed young men. Not “right wing”.
Regardless they are the 0.0001% they are not representative of the right, the left anything.
Antifa has 10’s of thousands of followers on twitter.
The pulitzer prize winning 1619 project has millions of supporters.
You’re right, Roby. I used a generalization that does not apply to every liberal. I was wrong to do that, and it is not helpful.
However, I spent yesterday, reading social media posts from many of my friends, extolling the “peaceful” protests in NYC and other cities, blaming the violence on white supremacists and cops who were supposedly instigating the peaceful protestors. And, of course, blaming Trump, because none of this would ever have happened if Obama were still president. According to them, he was a unifier.
It’s hard for me to express how much I disdain this kind of virtue-signalling. by white liberals (and, in the case of my social media, they were all liberals) who were, presumably, watching the fires and looting of urban neighborhoods, and cavalierly blaming it on the boogey men that they always invoke – white supremacists, racist cops, etc. These are people whom I know, who would be screaming bloody murder for those racist cops to come and save them, if, God forbid, a band of violent looters, black or white, were coming down their peaceful, tree lined streets.
This is not true of all liberals – not by a long shot. Some of my liberal friends are horrified by what is happening, and understand that the violence they see is not about the killing of George Floyd. But, they mostly stay silent on social media, fearing the backlash of making that observation. I stay silent as well.
Maybe we’re all the Silent Majority.
As you have commented, on many occasions, liberals and conservatives today tend to live in different universes, different realities. We talk past each other, and parse each other’s words to find the contradictions and falsehoods, rather than accepting the fact that, if we really do have separate realities, it’s going to take a focused effort, on both sides, to hear the other out, and try to find some kind of understanding.
On the other hand, I wonder how we will ever be able to see past our different realities, when it has become next to impossible to have a reasonable and honest discussion, because certain “realities” cannot be challenged and others cannot be asserted. Most people are either dug in or checked out at this point.
Yes, this would not happen if Obama was president, because Robby’s “extreme right wingers” can come together by the thousands in armed protest, and not loot or burn or hurt anyone.
Robby speaks of racist right wingers. I am repeatedly told by the left that is 49% of the country, that i am a racist, that you are a racist, that anyone who voted for Trump is a racist, that anyone that did not vote for hillary is a racist.
That is one hell of a lot of racists.
And yet where is the looting, and burning and rioting and lynching ?
Robby’s own logic fails. Just as you can not judge the left by outliers, You can determine that very few racist right wingers are actually racist.
If everyone is a racist – no one is a racist.
Robby wants me to condemn the right for the few at the extreme.
The same error he accuses you of.
Yet even if so – where are they ?
We have seen the protests of angry conservatives – no violence, no looting, no racism.
Absolutely, we live in divided perceptions of reality.
No doubt there is some error on the right. I am not on the right. I have no problems criticising the right when it is wrong.
But the left lives in fantasy land. Unreality.
This is just another aspect of my attack on compromise.
If one sides percetion is 90% accurate and the others is 90% wrong.
How do you make things better by compromise ?
My son lives in Boston and three days ago he went out to protest himself. It turned violent and he was appalled, took some video, posted it on youtube. As he put it he “got his lily white ass safely home.” He is a progressive Sanders kind of guy (in spite of my efforts), I think he is slowly realizing some of the real world and moderating his opinions. His opinion of the right is just as much a caricature based on the worst examples as your statement above was a caricature of liberals. If I challenge him after he has told me that GOP members are just all from the KKK I can get him to retreat and admit that its not really so. So, if I challenge you folks you will retreat and say something much more reasonable. If I am not there to challenge you two, you will both revert to the caricature. I hypothesize that one part of your brain, the amygdala, is responsible for the fearful caricature and another part, the prefrontal cortex, is responsible for the more accurate picture. When people are feeling emotional the amygdala dominates in the competition to produce a thought and produces the caricature.
No, this is not helpful. The media thrive on it.
Somewhere this year I went on a site run by a centrist group that had the purpose of letting people compare what they believe the opinions of conservatives and liberals are and then see what polls actually found. You would guess for example what percentage of conservatives believed that immigration from Mexico in all forms is bad and should not be allowed and then see what the real percentage was, which was much less than liberals would likely guess (I am reinventing this from memory its not really an exact question they asked). The point was for people to understand that neither liberals nor conservatives were the monolithic groups they imagined and that there was plenty of overlap actually between the opinions many liberals and many conservatives.
But you would never get this idea from reading or watching the right and left media. Which is why I don’t read or watch them. The media get their advertising dollars from click bait articles that are directed to the amygdala, the fear and anger center of the brain. Evolutionary economic pressure has forced them to adapt this behavior. Like a manufacturing company that does not really want to have its sneakers produced by asian sweatshop children but can’t stay in business if its competitors do but they don’t, most media outlets have become partisan fear mongers. This dynamic is one of my vast impersonal forces. Its actually several of my vast impersonal forces, first the way the brain works and produces both fearful caricatures and rational pictures of event and second, competition in this case for advertising revenue using hyperpartisan click bait by the media.
Robby, you may not be so left as your son, but you live far from reality too.
With respect to both you and your son.
My advice – which I follow myself is go listen to “the other side”.
Actually listen. You need not agree, but learn about them, what they think, not what you think they think. Don’t focus on challenging where they are right and wrong, but on challenging your perceptions of them – that they are all racist members of the KKK.
Let them show you who they are.
First listen to those voices you think are the real villians.
Hanity, Limbaugh, Levin, Bannon, Milo Yanopolis, Candace Owens
Just to be clear, I am not asking you to agree with this people – I do not. But to learn whether they truly fit your own carcitures.
After you have done that I would recomend you move to the more sane people.
Johnathan Turley,
Jonnathan Haidy.
Alan Dershowitz.
Steve Pinker,
The Weinsteins,
Jordan Peterson.
Dave Rubin and most anyone he interviews.
Old Milton Friedman clips.
Thomas Sowell.
Then read “All Minus One” Heterodox academies excellent paraphrase of the fantastic “In Liberty” by JS Mill.
https://heterodoxacademy.org/library/all-minus-one/
If you are unfamiliar with “On Liberty” – you are not a liberal.
Mill is an early liberal, an early feminist.
http://isidewith.com
My views come out 91% libertarian. I am not sure how that is not 100% as when they preak them down there is no issue that I am not closer to libertarain than anything else.
They have not yet added Jo Jorgensen to the You match xxx
As I have said, you are much more extreme Libertarian than I am and that is where we debate issues. I side 91% with GOP agenda, 86% Constitution party, 84% Libertarian and 6% Democrat.
Now I am going to be chastised by Jay as a Trump ass kisser, but I don’t really care because I know I can’t vote for Biden and the lessor of two evils in this election to me for long term programs is Trump based on my political views. I am not like my grandmother who voted for “the good looking nice guy” when she did not even agree with that parties politics. I would prefer a Lindsay Graham, Marco Rubio with the same stances as Trump, but I don’t have that choice. I would even prefer Ted Cruz even with his wanting to control women’s reproductive rights.Remember in 2016, I was support Rubio!
So Jay, go for it!
Robby, I have been posting here for years.
Yet i bet I could pretend to be you – far better than you could pretend to be me.
“You would guess for example what percentage of conservatives believed that immigration from Mexico in all forms is bad and should not be allowed and then see what the real percentage was which was much less than liberals would likely guess ”
Does not surprise me in the slightest.
There is substantial data that the further to the extremes you are the less your ability to understand the views of others, and data that those on the extreme left are much worse than the extreme right.
Several of your recent posts demonstrate this.
You pretend there is something close to parity between left political violence and right.
There is not. It is not even close.
No one rational would expect it to be. Those on the left believe that the use of force is easily justified. Most on the right and all libertarians beleive it is only justified in self defense.
This is why 10,000 lockdown protestors can march on a state capital with AR-15’s and there is no violence.
And BLM protests are certain to result in violence and looting.
Because we have pulitzer prize winning authors saying that looting is not violence – and they beleive it.
Do not get me wrong – the right and libertarians are perfectly capable of massive violence – in self defence. I do not think we will get there and I do not think we are close, but should government become too arbitrary and caprecious, too lawless, you will see REAL right win violence – in self defense, or defence of rights. That will resemble the american revolution – not looting and burning.
Just to be clear – I am not knocking BLM – they are trying to be non-violent. But their non-violence is pragmatic – because if they are violent no one will listen – not principled – violence outside of self defense and defense of rights is not justified.
The lockdown protestors did not need to be lectured on the need to refrain from violence.
They do not carry guns to impose their wills on others, they do so to prevent others from imposing their will on them.
Core ideology and principles inherently mean behavioral differences.
You are unwilling to accept that man or the majority of men (democracy) or groups of men called government, may not impose their will on others by force absent justification.
Libertarains call this the NAP – non-aggression principle.
Is it hard to grasp that those for which the NAP is more important will be less aggressive than those who do not ?
I doubt you are personally much of a danger to others ever. But you are far more likely to condone violence that I will not. You decide when violence is justified by emotions not fact.
We have been round and round on this forever.
If you do not accept reasonable limits on violence, then you can not be trusted with force.
“The media get their advertising dollars from click bait articles that are directed to the amygdala, the fear and anger center of the brain”
Absolutely and that is why the left can even exist. If we made judgements rationally on facts rather than emotions we would all be libertarian.
Progressivism does not hold up to intellectual scrutiny. It does not hold up to data, or principles, or even human behavior.
As a slight tangent, my tendencies to a sort of Americanized pseudo-Buddhism seem to be growing as a result of our politics and times.
Buddhism itself is a mixture of ancient fables (not for me), theology about reincarnation (I have my doubts on this part), detachment from events of life and the world, (I can’t quite believe that detachment is how to live a meaningful life) and useful advice about how to find inner peace in a painful and disturbing world (which is the part I like, very attractive and useful to me).
I was thinking the other day about my own behaviors in this awful time, that of trying to detach myself from the world of strife and war and enjoy my life. I remembered a group of Cambodian Buddhists who sat in a large public group concentrating on meditation while slowly raising their hands up and down during the Vietnam Cambodian disaster years. I could not find a source for that memory via a Google search but I did find material on a Vietnamese Buddhist named Thich Nhat Hahn who was active in the peace movement in Vietnam during the war and later. I ordered two of his books. If they don’t reach me I can be sure my wife will love them in any case.
I really don’t want to be a part of the ideological war, but I feel guilty just trying to enjoy my life like the French Zazous during WWII.
I can hide behind a new agey idea of embodying the peace that I want to exist in the world. No political activism for me, I’ll just fill myself with nice thoughts and project benevolence. Seems a bit dishonest and phony. What to do?
I have attacked you for making decisions to be imposed communally by force using emotion.
You are free to use ANY basis that personally appeals to you to make choices in your personal life that do not involve the use of force against others.
I was raised vatican II catholic, was deeply religious and deeply religiously knowledgeable as a young adult. I do not know what I beleive today. But like socrates, I believe we were before we were born and will be after we die, and that how we life this life matters. Like Kierkegard I do not think we can know anything of god besides what is in ourselves.
I find aspects of Buddhism and Hinduism appealing.
But I do not need answers, I know how to live.
“However, I spent yesterday, reading social media posts from many of my friends…”
And then there is Rick writing about the terrible war he is in the middle of on Facebook.
What would happen if you guys just Didn’t Go On Social Media and instead did something more enjoyable, since it is causing both of you such anguish?
Why must we be pulled into this nonsense, while fully understanding in one part of our brain that it is nonsense and worse than just a waste of time, damaging to one’s sanity?
If I screw up and start reading just news (opinion is more like it) headlines and not even the news articles themselves my blood is usually boiling within a short period.
Funny, until the coronavirus shutdown, I had reduced my FB logins to maybe once or twice a week. Now I’m back to checking it daily. I think I’m ready to take a break from it, until….I don’t know. I was going to say “until things calm down,” but I fear that might be never.
What would happen if you guys just Didn’t Vote and instead did something more enjoyable, since it is causing both of you such anguish?
We need police like this
Very interesting comments between Priscilla and Roby concerning liberals and what one believes they support. But don’t overlook the fact that there are major differences in the views of each group. One only has to look at the country to see why so much difference exists these days compared to 30+ years ago. No longer could a Ronald Reagan shift from the democrat party, union leader, and become governor of California and then President as a republican, winning over moderate democrats to do that. It is doubtful a Bill Clinton could come out of the south as a moderate democrat and win the nomination, go on to support Medicaid reforms and be re-nominated without significant challenges from his own party. Look at any colored maps and one can see how divided we really are between Urban and rural America.
The differences do not stop with just locality of living. Today there is a completely different mindset between liberals and conservatives in most everything. From expecting the rich to pay for multitudes of different programs to supporting the rights of each American to own a semi-automatic weapon, there is little in politics or rights liberals and conservative can agree.
Pew research did a study in 2014 on the differences between liberals and conservatives is 6 areas of raising children, 4 of them telling, Those four being:
Religious Faith, conservatives found this important in 81%, Liberals-26%
Tolerance of actions by others, conservatives accepted this 41% of the time, Liberals -88% of the time
Obedience of laws and parents, conservatives found this important 67% of the time, Liberals-35% of the time
Empathy for others, conservatives said this was important 55% of the time, liberals-86%
Now, these are numbers from one study, so don’t chastise me for reporting these numbers as these facts could be different from other studies. It is just the one that came up in a search I did. But what these numbers indicate from the people interviewed The facts from the 3,200 people interviewed in this study finds that far more liberals want their children to empathize and be tolerant of others than conservatives, while conservative want their children taught respect and obedience and place a much greater value on religion than liberals.
So while there are major differences in how each group views, one needs to look at expectations and what each group expects kids to do when they are growing up. Does a farmer accept their son or daughter sleeping in, staying up late, playing video games, hanging out with friends, not working? Does the inner city minority single mom have time from two jobs to make sure a teenage son is being productive and not hanging out with questionable friends? And there are many differences one can play out in their own minds like corrupt police unions watching out for corrupt officers compared to the farmer or the suburban business owner allowing corrupt activities within their business.
Maybe it is time for the liberals to become less tolerant and the conservatives to increase empathy for others. Maybe expectations would place more importance on following laws and allowing for punishment of minor infractions at a younger age and teach the young there is a price to pay for bad behaviors, while at the same time conservatives living in their white gated communities and middle class neighborhoods absent of crime would understand more of the problems minorities face.
And maybe it’s time for politicians to set an example. Reduction of intolerance of any action and stop threatening military actions. Stop criticizing those that expect the laws to be followed. When politicians can not even agree on those two things, how can anyone expect citizens to agree.
Its a great comment Ron.
I am the last one to believe that conservatives and liberals are monolithic groups, there is much variation in both. Most people actually do not have finely defined ideological views, they do not spend much time and energy on politics and have pretty vague beliefs and knowledge.
Consider this, Vermont elects Sanders and Leahy year after year, we must be a bunch of prog loonies up here, right? And yet, about 1/5th of the eligible Vermont voters cast their vote for Sanders in the 2020 Vermont Dem primary, where surely every red blooded Bernie fan would have rushed out to vote for their hero. Are we really so far left then? Or are less than 20% of Vermonters giving that impression?
As well, why do we keep electing moderates as Governor, including three well like GOP moderates in my time here, Snelling, Douglass, and now the very reasonable and not the least bit left wing Phil Scott, all elected and reelected for as long as they kept running? There is a lot going on under the surface appearances of a prog dominated ideological group in Vermont. We balance our budget more than most states. we rebel when property taxes go up. It may well be the same in North Carolina or south Carolina to name a more conservative place. There is more of a spectrum and more people who do not fit the perceived mold or caricature everywhere.
My father is in Montana, and I go out there often. It was not nearly what I expected culturally speaking of a western (but not west coast) state, a Vermonter of any stripe could live in some part of it happily. Nice people, very nice people there.
Mom in New Mexico. The same thing, nice people, a wide range of ideology, but nothing crazy from the point of the big picture.
Most people just want to get along and are not ideologues.
Its the media who paint the picture of endless partisan strife.
Roby “Its the media who paint the picture of endless partisan strife.”
And where does the national media reside for the most part?
Roby, maybe S.C. is less divided like Vermont, but not N.C. In the last 20 years the division has grown to be much like national politics. Blues from Raleigh, Durham, Charlotte and Greensboro where large northern and western financial companies and others moved operations v the mostly rural and less populated mountain and agricultural areas. When democrats and republicans ran governor candidates, they both were moderates. Now the legislature backs a GOP almost 100% and blocks a democrat probably 75%. We have not had a new budget since 2018 because the governor vetoed the GOP legislature budget and due to the demographics and geography of the state, the legislature is overwhelmingly republican. They hardly ever meet and talk.GOP passes legislation, governor vetoes, case dropped.
I think the answer you are looking for is “in huge cities”.
Point taken.
On the other hand could the Wall Street Journal or Fox news, as conservative examples, really be located in the cattle country of Montana? That would be hard to picture. Large enterprises exist in large metropolitan areas, where the resources are. I would bet it is the same in every country, large media are not found in the boonies or farm country.
Roby, the continue the media comment, yes, big cities, NYC for the most part. WSJ and Fox are outliers compared to AP, Times, MSNBC etc. But they also have agendas and pick reporters that fill their mission.
First Fox always hired younger, blond, conservative women to work with the men. The men were hand picked from their vast network of reporters. Most local reporters do not project the Hannity image that is hired. Chris Wallace is a an anomaly nat Fox. The same can be said for liberal outlets, CBS, ABC, NBC. Their locals are not Rachel Maddows that are hired.
But when the national news recruits, they hand pick those that will fulfill their agenda. Liberal or conservative. Watching our local news the past couple days had reports of the riots, demonstration and Trump going to the church. There was nothing I heard about tear gas to get him safely through the crowd or using force against peaceful demonstrators. And that was the Fox and CBS affiliates. That was the top story nationally.
1968 was very different in that there were 5 major outlets. UP, AP, ABC, NBC and CBS. You had to buy a paper for UP and AP and turn on 30 minutes of news at dinner time for the others. They tried to shape the news. My senior year in college a group demonstrated at school, about 500. Cameras set up and caught the crowd to fill the screen. Headlines was “100’s demonstrate at Cal State Fullerton against war”. And pictures could support it, but it was lies to support an agenda.
The media should have freedom of the press. They should not have freedom to create their own facts. That is the difference between “Montana news” and “New York City news”.
Does it surprise you even a little that the WSJ is located in WallStreet ?
Does its views surprise you even a little ?
Fox is not that much of an anomally. It might reside in NYC, but its market is everywhere else. Though even Fox has a more big city republican bent than the country.
The only resources in large metropolitian areas are human resources.
I would suggest reviewing Maslows hierarchy of needs.
Throughout human history what is just barely in reach or just barely out of reach of people has the highest price.
Much of the GDP of the country was produced in districts that Clinton won in 2016.
Almost none of the Things – food, steel, cars, dishwashers, … were.
As standard of living declines those very Clinton districts would starve and the Trump ones would become wealthy. Ni one cares about the new iPhone app when they can not eat.
I have a friend who lives in Vermont.
Despite Vermonts Senator none of the places you listed are progressive mecca’s.
The core of modern progressivism is with a massive number of people – in a tiny portion of the country.
Even though they are more inclined to vote democrat, myriads of people accross the country have more incomon with Trump voters than progressives. You just do not know it.
Most people do just want to get along.
The media is pretty much 100% from those tiny progressive enclaves.
Tolerance is a faux value of the left.
Whatever they say the left is intolerant – and there is lots of data to support that.
https://areomagazine.com/2018/03/17/the-reality-of-the-rise-of-an-intolerant-and-radical-left-on-campus/
Roby, example of problems in America. Website that does humor and is usually very funny posted a question.
“I am not sure if I should wear a mask entering a store or carry a brick to enter a store. 2020 very confusing”.
Now some might find that funny. I find it racist because everyone will place certain races in the two groups. How can racism be funny?
I have a feeling I am being tested but I will bite. According to the members of Monty Python there is no subject that is excluded from humor they could think of. They certainly made lots of jokes about nationalities and even one long joke in Life of Brian about transgender people. (Where is the fetus going to gestate, are you going to keep it in a box?)
I am old school. If there is not malevolent intention then it is humor
Now, out and out racists telling N***** or J** jokes is only funny to them.
Guess I am not open minded enough to see the humor in this. All I saw in my mind a cartoon with blacks with bricks breaking into stores and whites walking into costco with masks. Maybe I’m the racist and dont know it.
I don’t find it racist, because, watching the riots, I see as many whites as blacks rioting and looting. Anarchists and communists mostly, young idiots, who think that they’re going to bring the revolution to America, by destroying property, which, of course, is the root of all evil.
There was a peaceful protest march in New Brunswick, the small city near near me. It’s generally home to thousands of Rutgers kids, but because most of the college kids were sent home because of coronavirus, there were no self-syled revolutionaries to turn the protest violent. A fortunate side effect of the shutdown.
At least half of the New Brunswick Police Dept. is black, and there doesn’t seem to be much animosity between the cops and the black community. The marchers chanted “Black Lives Matter,” they met with cheering and support along the way, and that was it. The City and the PD have announced that they will instituting certain reforms, although they weren’t specific. To my knowledge, there hasn’t been a police brutality incident in recent memory.
On a tangent apparently a large number of the anti-HCQ studies that have been published lately were the product of the same company that has no medical or statistical background at all using bad data and bad methodology
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/covid-19-surgisphere-who-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine
Dave, one thing I can say, you certainly take my comments seriously. Every molecule gets some response.
I read almost all of what you replied.
As I expected, complete denial. When the right extremists kill it does not count because they are disturbed. Well that works for you but it does not work for me and others. They are disturbed and acting on ideas that you can easily find being thrown around in various shades of ugliness on the right. I am NOT saying that by any means all people on the right are believers, but there are substantial numbers of them and they are very disproportionately on the right. For not very unsurprising reasons some of the worst of these people believe that trump and his incarnation of the GOP speaks for them.
You can find next to no such deadly use of violence in the US by the loony left, which is not an exoneration of the harm they cause, just a fact. Pol pot has no relevance to the democratic party other than in your mind.
You met my expectations, you again cheerfully lumped my mom in with Pol pot.
Your views on ideology are too distorted for me to take seriously.
You have a fanatical loathing of every molecule of the left that ever was or will be, and you nearly utterly ignore the effects and destruction caused by the worst on the right. As I knew you would.
I am not watching the talking heads of the cnns etc blather on. I am sure I would find mountains of pandering that would disgust and bore me. I am also sure none of them are cheering on looters although you may find words that you can massage into doing so, after all you can massage my mom into pol pot.
The objectivity I enjoyed in your post of several days back has been replaced by the same old highly distorted and unobjective fanaticism. It’s a shame, but it’s not my problem, like the blather of the media left and right is not my problem. I will change my channel back from politics to Debussy and ordovician limestones etc. and check in on the situation periodically over months and years to see if the swelling has gone down.
G’ day all.
Please identify an actual “right extremist”.
We can go through the entire list of all these lone wolf mass murders that you are presuming are representative of some Right wing nut pattern of violence.
By all means make your case
I will give you a start
Dylan Roof is certainly a white supremecist and clearly commited a race based Crime.
At the same time Roof’s history shows absolutely no political involvement.
He has a history – but fundimentally as a criminal and drug addict.
I do not know if Roof is mentally disturbed.
White supremecy – as you appear unfamilar with it is socialist in nature.
It is not especially right wing.
Anyway Roof is actually a racist. Actually a criminal.
I am not aware of any republican that supports him. I am not aware of anyone on the right that supports him.
And Roof might be the best you can get.
Possibly the best right wing policitically motivated killer would be Cesar Sayoc
Whose crime is mailing fake bombs while hyped up on steriods.
He is admittedly a Trump suporter – so you have atleast the political element.
And mailing fake bombs is an actual crime. It is terrorism.
But it is not actually violent – and once again you have somebody in an altered mental state.
Then there is Patrick Crusius the 2019 El Paso shooter.
You can read Crusius’s manifestor if you want.
If you edit it carefully you can easily cast him as a racist Trump supporter.
But change your edits and he suddenly looks like a left wing nut enviro terrorist.
And he openly pisses on both parties.
So which is it ? is he a righty, a lefty or just a nut ?
Pick whoever you want. All or nearly all of these fit the same model.
White male in their 20’s with mental health problems thoroughly weird ideologies that make no sense a all politically.
Are these your serious right wing threats ?
I did not say when a right extremist kills they are disturbed.
I said it is clearly error to attribute ideology to the misdeads of paranoid schitzophrenics and other highly distrurbed people. Few of whom have clear ideation.
Mr. Hodgekins was clearly a lefty and not that clearly disturbed – he was also outside the young white male window
Mr. Christians was drunk and might have made racist slurs before murdering three people on a buss – but his Social Media was uber Bernie Bro.
Atleast half of the purported right wing murdering nutjobs can trivially be painted as left win murdering nutjobs.
Does the left have to own Kazinsky ?
What is the point at which you are prepared to accept that someone is just mentally disturbed and their messed up ideation – which Rarely leans only one way matters ?
Or are you claiming that all paranoid schiztophrenics are right wing ?
Joe Stack ? John Hinkley ? Son of Sam ?
I will give you the Bundy’s – there are really really right wing – though more religious wing nuts.
But they did not kill anyone. And infact numerous federal courts ultimately found that just because you are nuts – does not mean the FBI is not illegally targeting you.
The FBI actually set Sniper’s and the Bundy’s and but for the Bundy’s paranoia would have murdered them.
“They are disturbed and acting on ideas that you can easily find being thrown around in various shades of ugliness on the right.”
Ok so you are then saying that Crosius was a left wing nut – after all his manifesto is full of eco terrorism ?
And Kazinsky – he is a left win echo terrorist too ?
And Hodgkins – he shot up the congressional republican baseball team ?
And Christian – the drunk on the bus who murdered 3 people with a knife while maybe muttering racist slurs – whose social media was Bernie, Bernie Bernie
Or Loughner – he was a grammar nazi – is that left or right wing ?
If you desparately must divide all these paranoid schiz loan wolf killers by politics – you will end up with as many on the left as right, and an awfull lot that you just can not place at all.
Or you could be rational and get that a tiny portion of paranoid schiz’s are dangerous.
They are paranoid schiz’s they are going to find some ideology to distort into the justification for their actions. But they were nuts first.
“You can find next to no such deadly use of violence in the US by the loony left”
If you can not – then you are not looking.
Nuts come evenly distributed in all flavors – many mixed.
There are as many left as right, and an awful lot that you can find left and right ideations.
That is because they are nuts.
If you want to persist in this claim that the right must own every nutbar that uttered something right wing – you must also own every nutbar that uttered anything left wing.
The reason you have forgotten them is not because they do not exist, it is because everyone agrees they are just nuts.
The right is not busy trying to force ted kazynsky down the lefts throat.
The right recognizes nuts when they see it.
The left – like you wants to find politics where it is not.
But only when it is favorable to them.
I did not tie Pol Pot to the democratic party.
I tied him to the left.
There were once lots of democrats who were not on the left, there were even blue dog democrats who were fairly right wing.
Today moderate democrats exist but they grow rarer all the time, and are increasingly led around by left wing nuts.
I do not actually think Biden is a lefty. But you could not tell that by much of what he has said int he past year.
I would further note, during the Obama administration we were repeatedly told that accusing democrats of leaning socialist was lying.
Today somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of all democrats self identify as socialist.
It is not the right that was wrong – it is the left that was lying about themselves.
“you nearly utterly ignore the effects and destruction caused by the worst on the right. As I knew you would.”
I will be happy to go through the faults of the right.
I spent alot of my life fighting right wing censorship.
in the 20th century if someone talked about burning books, or censoring speech it went without saying they was the right wing.
I may not think that it is possible for an intelligent person to morally support socialism.
The evidence is just too damning.
But I absolutely completely oppose criminalizing politics.
I oppose the jailing of Eugene Debbs, I oppose the MacCarthy nonsense, and loyalty oaths, and red scares and blacklists.
And everything I opposed with those on the right did it – the left is doing today.
I have not changed – the left has.
I oppose the war on drugs, the militarization of the police.
‘But for the fact that democrats like Biden fell all over themselves trying to outdo the right on these – mostly there are right wing things.
Your rant keeps equating right wing with racism.
Yet progressives have been racist for more than a century.
Democrats and the left are trying to disown Woodrow wilson. but he was a progressive and a democrat.
Are we forgetting the actual US concentration camps built by FDR to keep asians in ?
I beleive EJI has documented 8000 lynchings in the US by democrat, mostly progressive southerners.
How many republicans have burned crosses ?
Both the VRA and the CRA were passed by Republicans.
Bull Conner was not a Republican. Nor was Grand Dragon Richard Byrd.
even today – you blame republicans for racism – but the evidence of that racism is in cities that are mostly minority controled and exlcusively democrat.
Was Amy Cooper a neo-nazi republican ?
The cities on fire right now – Republican ?
Are the police forces that are so systemically racist run by republican police cheifs and republican mayors ?
You equate racism and the right and Trump as if we must just accept these things as true.
They are not. Just as the past 4 years have proven – sexism is as much if not more the domain of the left, so is racism.
There is absolutely no link between democrats and moral conduct.
You talk about the dark underbelly of the right – why the right ?
I can nto find evidence that racism, sexism, have ideological bounds.
“I am not watching the talking heads of the cnns etc blather on. I am sure I would find mountains of pandering that would disgust and bore me. I am also sure none of them are cheering on looters although you may find words that you can massage into doing so”
If you are not watching them – then how do you know this ?
I have watched myself as a CNN reporter on air described the “protests” as peaceful, while behind is camera people were bashing in a police car and a building was burning.
I am not massaging anything.
“after all you can massage my mom into pol pot.”
No I have asked how any intelligent person can support socialism after its long bloody history.
You connected you mom to Pol Pot on your own.
And you are accusing me of misrepresentation ?
I do not know your mom at all. I have said nothing about her.
But I am not going to sugar coat the history of socialism or leftism because someone you know might hold them in high regard.
There are still people who hold Nazi’s in high regard. Fortunately few.
Why are there any that hold socialism in high regard ?
The death toll from Socialism is 10 times that of the Nazi’s
and oh, Nazi is National SOCIALISM
Here is Jordan Peterson on the problems of the left.
You can pretend toward the start – I am not a marxist, that does not apply to me, but follow it to the end, ultimately he does not leave much room for anything that would be considered the left today – and actual survival.
I would further note that while again you can pretend this does not apply to you, the ideas and problems he discusses with the left pretty much permeate the democratic party today.
Better man they me. There is no way I have hours to read everything Dave posts!
“Yes, America is burning, but that’s how forests grow,” MA AG Healey
https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/dem-ag-letting-america-burn-is-the-path-to-growth/
One point for you. Her comment is insane. She should leave office. I will follow up on this.
You have found one genuine elected democratic nut job. Have you got more?
I posted that before you made the demand for evidence.
Interestingly I am finding it fairly easy to find posts and tweets by Democrats that are offensive, but many many clips that i had seen from the media that were offensive are now gone – completely.
I guess the media does not care if democrats
Here is an NYT article attacking DeBlasio for being “too pro police”.
I would note that George Floyd was not killed in NYC.
I would further note that the following day Gov. Cuomo excoriated DeBlasio for failing to stop rioting burning and looting
Chris Cuomo: “Please show me where it says that protests should be peaceful”
David Dorn – a retired black police captain was murdered defending the store of a friend. There is video of him bleeding to death in the streets. The media has not covered his story.
There is a gofund me campaign for Dorn – he has received 50,000 in donations.
The mineapolis freedom fund – a gofundme campaign for those arrested while rioting in st. louis has 20,000,000 in it. Why are we paying to bail out those arrested by police and giving next to nothing to black men murdered by them ?
Do you need more examples ?
It is the internet, sometimes as google hides things it takes longer to find things.
I am still trying to dig up a pretty bad quote from MN AG Keith ellisons son who is on the St. Paul city counsel.
Regardless, there are plenty more.
You just need to bother to look.
Rosenstein mostly manages to survive a public hearing on his conduct by:
Claiming to have been mislead – primarily by McCabe.
Claiming to not know anything about things that it is either highly implausible that he did not know or highly incompetent.
Based on his testimony you would conclude that his oversight of mueller was incredibly shallow, and that his appointment of Mueller was based on being duped by McCabe into beleiving that the XFH had substance when McCabe knew beyond any doubt it was nonsense.
Rosenstein did make it clear that claims that Trump obstructed justice are garbage.
That there is alot here that needs to be investigated – leading one to wonder why he was doing nothing to look into any of it when he was being asked to do so by house and senate republicans and the president.
That the DOJ dropping the Flynn prosecution was not unusual.
Rosenstein did an incredible job of doing Sargent Schultz from Hogan’s hero’s
“I know nothing”
https://jonathanturley.org/2020/06/03/rosenstein-testifies-before-the-senate-judiciary-hearing/
There is one City in the United states where President Trump actually has police power.
Washington DC.
https://jonathanturley.org/2020/06/03/yes-trump-can-order-the-deployment-of-d-c-police/
The rioters are by the way, insane terrorists and need to rot in jail. If the Dem party cannot speak with a clear forcefull unambiguous voice and condemn them as loudly as trump has using more measured language they will not deserve success. They need to be 100 percent clear and stop trying to have it both ways. You either condemn every molecule of this insane lawlessness or you are wrong. I will not give them a pass, no matter how much I disagree and am disgusted by TrumpGOP.
They are, like the GOP trapped by their own fanatics and are being way too cute. It’s unacceptable to me. Both parties are unacceptable to me.
“The rioters are by the way, insane terrorists and need to rot in jail. If the Dem party cannot speak with a clear forcefull unambiguous voice and condemn them as loudly as trump has using more measured language they will not deserve success. They need to be 100 percent clear and stop trying to have it both ways. You either condemn every molecule of this insane lawlessness or you are wrong. I will not give them a pass, no matter how much I disagree and am disgusted by TrumpGOP.”
What would happen in the media if some Trump WH official posted bail for Ofc. Chuavin ?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8388125/Obama-era-intelligence-posts-bail-NYC-lawyer-alleged-Molotov-cocktail-Floyd-protest.html
Turley makes a couple of errors of over generalization here.
the charges against Flynn are quite specific. they are not that he lied about anything that can plausibly be described as “sanctions”. it is that he lied about discussing with Kislyak the sanctions in a specific Obama executive order. In the charge sheet, in the plea agreement and in the mueller report this EO is specifically identified and it is about discussions of the sanctions in this EO that Flynn is accused of lying about.
The referenced EO is Not about the explusion of diplomats, it is about adding a bunch of Russian Oligarchs to the Governments list of foreigners whose bank accounts and assets are subject to government scrutiny.
That NEVER came up in Flynn’s discussions with Kislyak.
This is significant for multiple reasons. The other Obama actions were not accomplished by executive order and were not in the legal sense sanctions. And they were not refered to as what Flynn lied about. So while Flynn did discuss with Kislyak Russias response to the expulsion of diplomats., he did NOT discuss with Kislyak at all ever any aspect of the Obama Sanctions EO that Mueller and his team charged him with lying about.
I do not know the rules for federal criminial court filings, but I would expect the requirments would be even more demanding that state civil court filings.
I have filed Pro Se civil claims against civil defendants.
When I have done so I was required to certify under oath and subject to penalties for sworn falsification that everything in my claims was true, or I would be subject to criminal prosectution.
It is clear that Van Grack’s and Mueller;s filings were NOT true.
The misrepresentations were “technical” – but this is a criminal case were Flynn is being charged on a much weaker – “technical” claim of misrepresentation.
If Flynn is to be prosecuted – then so should Van Grack and Mueller.
I would also note that Rosenstein also signed off on something like 3 of the page warrants.
Someone had to swear an oath that the information was correct – that is a 4th amendment requirement – the FISA court can not waive it.
Someone committed a crime of sworn falsification. Arguably Rosenstein.
Certainly he is morally culpable if not legally so.
https://jonathanturley.org/2020/06/02/the-senate-should-focus-on-what-the-flynn-transcripts-do-not-contain-starting-with-a-crime/
DOJ has a clear Domestic Terrorism case.
https://jonathanturley.org/2020/06/02/the-trump-administration-may-have-its-first-domestic-terrorism-case/
I went looking for stupid comments by the MSM or democratic politicians that would make it possible to believe they were praising the looters or rioters. I expected to find at least something, there are always a few assholes who go over the top. I found nothing. SO if anyone has any good link to a Democratic politician or a MSM commentator saying anything in support of looters or rioters you can help me out and provide a link. If true I will write to their organization and ask that they be fired.
As proof of how litle news I read I only accidentally found out today that Mattis came down on trump from something and I don’t even know what the something was.
If I really jump into reading the news I am likely to find quite a lot on trump that I have not been following because I do not follow trump stories. I have given the man to much attention already. According to Mattis seems trump was his usual clumsy self problem causing self.
At some safe time in the future I will read a history of this and find out what exactly trump did to so anger Mattis.
I did find this, on Fox news:
“”I don’t know if I’ve ever seen anything like this since maybe Emmett Till,” said Clyburn. “I do believe that was a defining moment in this country’s history. I think this was a defining moment.”
Clyburn helped form the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee in 1960 along with Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga. The lawmaker made comparisons between today’s activism and the civil rights movement of decades ago that suffered when people tried to exploit and hijack their nonviolent message, he said.
“And we cannot allow anybody to come into this movement,” Clyburn said. “Peaceful protest is our game. Violence is their game. Purposeful protest is our game. This looting and rioting, that’s their game. We cannot allow ourselves to play their game.”
“I went looking for stupid comments by the MSM or democratic politicians that would make it possible to believe they were praising the looters or rioters. I expected to find at least something, there are always a few assholes who go over the top. I found nothing. SO if anyone has any good link to a Democratic politician or a MSM commentator saying anything in support of looters or rioters you can help me out and provide a link. If true I will write to their organization and ask that they be fired.”
There are many – if you found none – you did not look very hard.
I specifically cited the video from CNN (I beleive) of a reporter in front of burning buildings and people smashing police cars calling it a “peaceful protest”.
I also just recently posted the statement of the MA AG that sometimes you have to burn down the forest to rebuild.
I separately provided you the link to the NYT 1619 project’s remarks.
The fairfax county democratic party posted a tweet that “riots were an integral part of this country’s march to progress” – the tweet has subsequently been taken down and blamed on a “volunteer”.
Not quite the same thing but we have a Denver Police officer who tweeted “lets start a riot”.
Minnesota Democrat Governor’s daughter deleted her twitter account after it appeared that she was providing information rioters to help them avoid the National Guard.
The rhetoric of the MA AG is literally incendiary, disgusting, and insane. I posted to that effect above above in reaction to your post. As I said, you score a point there, you uhave found clear evidence of one Dem lunatic politician in actual power making a statement that seems to say that America burning is a good thing. The left in Boston is in my experience the worst anywhere. I used to read th4e Globe and barf daily many years ago at their columnists. Healey does not belong in office (Should the AG as the chief legal officer of the State be enthusiastic about the burning of America? Unbelievable!!!) and I am going to write to her and tell her so. As I said, there is always at least one asshole who goes totally over the top in their rhetoric and opinions. And Mass is just the place where one would find that asshole.
The other stuff is all petty stupid bullshit by nobodies, nothing that indicts the Dem party as a whole, or the MSM.
Other than the MA AG I have seen nothing that shows Democrats in any serious position cheering the rioters and looters. When the rioters burn down a building that has innocents in it that will probably be the senseless avoidable tragedy that puts an end to this. I understand that this has already nearly happened. As well there was the shooting of 4 cops in St Louis, thankfully not seriously. It should not take the inevitable tragedy to make people seriously pull the plug on this.
I expect the Dems, especially those at the top, to make a much stronger statement that the rioting and looting are contemptible and dangerous and utterly counter productive. I expect them to make a much stronger effort to put this fire out. So far they have been anemic and have sent a rather mixed message, without however actually cheering the looters. If they do not do much better, and fast, they will deserve their consequences.
If you have something else, tell me about it and I will look into it.
Robby,
This is not about trying to “score points”.
The other examples I found were what came up in google quickly
Keith Ellison is the AG of Minesota. His remarks are not as bad as the MA AG, but he was still telling protestors to Vent violence at the cops, not at the NG.
That is not something an AG should say – especially the AG charged with investigating and prosecuting the officers involved here.
If you insist I can find more examples of media figures and politicians saying stupid things.
My major point is stupidity is bipartisan.
I do not Trust Trump, or democrats, the MSM or Fox to give me the truth.
But I hope that with information from all sources I can get some idea what it might actually be.
That said – right now if your source is one side – you do not know the truth or anything close to it.
There is a fight going on about how big the violence is, and who is instigating it.
Several on the left have claimed that it is white supremecist infiltrators.
I seriously doubt that.
Others AntiFa.
Or maybe it is just the people in these communities.
Regardless, we should find out and prosecute the violence – not the protests.
We will have protests again in this country and we need to do everything possible to assure that they are not violent.
We want to strongly respect the right to protest.
I do not give a crap who is responsible for the violence – get them and prosecute them.
Further we have had a failure of leadership.
But this failure has been almost entirely at the local level.
Outside of DC this is NOT a Trump matter – no matter what he says. He can bring in the NG, but I think that would be a huge mistake. ‘
Cuomo reamed DeBlassio a new asshole for allowing riots.
But Even Cuomo properly noted that though he can move the NG in and he can take over, that is a mistake. Those on the scene need to deal with the problem.
That is true in other states as well.
I beleive we have serious policing problems. I do not beleive we have systemic racism.
I also beleive thaat despite those problems our policing is better than it has ever been.
But my beleifs and Trump’s beleifs and yours do not matter.
Whatever is wrong the problems are LOCAL. They appear to be somewhat common across the country – though I would note – this has played out radically different in different cities.
At the top of the list for dealing with the protests/riots/violence is the LOCAL governments.
At the top of the list for future reform is the LOCAL government.
Whatever needs done regarding police – it is the LOCAL governments that must do it.
I think it is highly arguable that many of those should be replaced in Nov.
But that is up to the people.
“The other stuff is all petty stupid bullshit by nobodies, nothing that indicts the Dem party as a whole, or the MSM.”
Who is trying to indict the entire democratic party ?
Individual politicians are responsible for their own stupid remarks.
Further I was concerned because it was much easier to find bad quotes from Dem’s than the media.
I do not care about Dem’s – we have a political process to hold them accountable.
Biden will bury Trump with any stupid things he says and visa versa.
I am more concerned about the media – we expect accurate reporting of facts from them.
But I am finding that much of what I actually witnessed as bad conduct by media has to a large extent been purged already or is very hard to find anymore.
But with effort I was able to find some of it.
There is lots of the MSM left calling this all peacefull protests and Fox calling this rioting.
I am not sure yet who is lying the most. But major talking heads saying that violence is part of protesting or that property damage is not violence – that is irresponsible.
I hope that Chris Cuomo has some “protesting” at his home.
There appears to be little doubt at this point that this is not nearly the scale of Rodney King or 1968 in terms of destruction.
At the same time – this is NOT mostly nonviolent protests with a little looting and destruction.
I beleive in Mineapolis alone over 300 business have been looted, storefronts destroyed.
In DC pretty much every small business on H & I streets has been damaged.
There are several neighborhoods in NYC that have been severely damaged.
There are also a few deaths – looters killing store owners, and about a dozen police nationwide that have been shot – but probably only 2 killed. There were several shooters arrested and atleast one killed.
So as best as I can tell this is not as bad as those on Fox claim, and not as good as those on the MSM.
There are much worse comments by AG Ellison’s son, but I have not been able to find them again.
https://hotair.com/archives/jazz-shaw/2020/05/30/ellison-rioting-okay-directed-police/
“At some safe time in the future I will read a history of this and find out what exactly trump did to so anger Mattis.”
Mattis has already made clear his disdain for Trump and it is shocking that he survived long as Sec Def.
Mattis argued strongly in his recent book for a very neocon postion, that the US has a duty to be the policeman of the world, for massive US troop deployments to hotspots throughout the world while maintain our forces there for decades.
He argued against draw downs in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria.
You can support Mattis policy positions – I do not, but they are completely at Odds with Trump’s campaign promises and his policy. Mattis never should have taken the Sec Def job if he was going to undermine or fight against Trump’s policies.
Trump’s committment to get us out of never ending war is one of the areas I must strongly support him.
Mattis has made it crystal clear he beleives that is wrong. I am happy he is gone.
I have some serious problems with several of Trump’s appointments. Mattis is one.
Boulton is another. Both are men with stature and reputation, but also with positions that were in direct conflict with Trump. Who clearly worked to undermine Trump’s positions.
Regardless, Mattis wrote his book, He made his case, no one is listening, it is time to move on.
So you have Fox providing Airtime to a prominent democrat, who was urging non-violent protests.
Shouldn’t they be applauded for that ?
I figured out quite a while ago, and said so here, that I have revised my view of the news side of Fox pretty strongly. They are Not the opinion side, in fact I have read plenty about the distaste and dislike many on the news side of Fox have for the opinion side. In many ways they are a sincere news group with good standards and I take them as seriously as anyone. I have also read some total nonsense attributed to them.
I also figured out (actually found out by doing some research) that the daily audience for the opinion side of Fox is not anything like I or many others imagine. A few million at most. Its not like conservatives all turn on the Fox opinion shows every night. There is plenty on the opinion side that is very ugly red meat. But the news side is as legit as anything else.
Trying to determine the Truth is difficult.
If you listen to Tucker Carlson right now – and mostly I respect him, however he has become a populist cheerleader, and goes overboard on some populist postions that are wrong and he is smart enough to know that.
Regardless, if you listen to Carlson this is as bad as 1968.
But if you listen to CNN or MSNBC there is little or no violence. And property damage is not really violence.
If you listen to FOX – Antifa is caching brick and incindiaries all over and inciting violence.
If you listen to CNN this is not happening – or it is white supremecists.
If you listen to the MSM or protestors unarmed blacks are gunned down by the police everyday.
But the WaPo data – probably the best in the country indicates that there were about 100 police shootings of blacks in 2019. If those only 10 were unarmed. If those 4 of the police were prosecuted.
I beleive we have many problems with our policing that need fixed.
I do not beleive systemic racism is one of those.
I do beleive the “warrior Cop” attitude is a big problem and must go.
I would further note that 180 police officers were killed in the line of duty in 2019.
I would further note that if you are black you are 700 times more likely to be killed by a black criminal than a police officer. Lets get our problems into perspective.
There is a problem with policing for profit accross much of the country.
It does not matter whether that is municipalities using speed traps and redlight cameras, or nusiance violations – those are wrong and should be stopped. Further those are not generally “police” problems – it is the municipalities that drive policing for profit not the cops.
Whatever the problems with our police – those problems as problems of LOCAL government.
Which raises another question.
The lockdown protestors went to City Hall and state capitals. That is where we protest government, and maybe public parks.
Why are these protests occuring in residential centers and centers of commerce ?
If protestors are going to burn buildings – burn city hall, they are responsible for the management of the police. Do not burn your local grocer.
Local police, mayors, and state governors bear alot of responsibility here.
You do not stop protests, but you can move them to venues where private property is safe.
The viewer ship of Fox and CNN and MSNBC is what it is.
I beleive Tucker Carlson is currently the top rated oppinion show in the country.
Fox does not have a “straight news” model. They have almost no actual reporters.
There organization is very heavy on oppinion and very light on news gathering.
Regardless, people get to choose who they listen too.
I had recomended to you that you hear more voices from the “far right”.
You need not agree with them – and you should not, but you are not qualified to criticise them if all you have heard is what talking heads on CNN say about their competition.
I am not sure I would go so far as Alex Jones, but definitely Bannon, and Limbaugh, and others like them.
Again I am not asking you to agree with them, just find out who they actually are as people.
Because if your sources is what their enemies say – you do not know them.
You want to end polarization in this country – listen to all sides, before making judgements.
I personally listen to more from sources that are heavily pro bernie, than I do from “right” sources. I do not agree with them, in some instances I think they are brain dead stupid.
Often I find they make exactly the same errors that Carlson does.
Regardless, they give me a much better sense of what those 20-30 are thinking today.
Rather than the caricature I get from either CNN or FOX.
“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion… Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them…he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.”
J. S. Mill
I have been trying to make some sense of your mixed responses to my posts.
You responded quite favorably to a post that was an amalgam of different views or information, with some emotion.
But you have pushed back hard against essentially the same positions – but where only a single point was being made with more elaboration and you did not agree with that point.
I did not change – but your response changed.
I would ask that you consider why is it that the inclusion of some emotion or a few unrelated points where we have some common ground makes a post reasonable to you, and absent those you find it offensive and unhinged.
As you cited Fox, I would note that Tucker Carlson had a long segment about the violence and Riots, and from the start to the end he attacked Republicans – Trump, Haley, Pence, Kushner and numerous others for failing to do their jobs and for remarks that seemed to support the rioters.
You can agree of disagree with his remarks, but that is NOT the picture stereotype that is floated about Fox and Carlson in particular being a Trump Toady.
I beleive he also ran an editorial in NYT.
I do not know why Mattis whigged out – but it is perfectly clear that is exactly what he did.
Mattis was discussing the possibility that Trump might use troops other than the National Guard to deal with the riots.
As Andrew McCarthy notes in an editorial I linked in another comment, there is plenty of room for debate as to whether that is a good idea or not. There is absolutely no debate that it is within Trump’s powers. It has been done before, as recently as the Rodney King Riots, It was also done by President Eisenhower Famously at Little Rock to integrate schools.
Put simply there is not a shred of truth in anything Mattis said, and worse his remarks were unhinged and if the 1798 Sedition act were still in effect, they would be criminal.
But it is not – because in the US you can insult the government, insult the president, you can even lie. It is called free speech.
Mattis demonstrated two things. That many of the very people Trump appointed to high positions in the federal government were actively working against him.
That he is clueless about the facts and the law.
I personally beleive that Trump should stay out of these riots and protests – short of protecting federal property and some limited steps in DC where he has clear power and some actual responsibility.
I beleive that nothing that is happening warrants federal intrusion.
I do think that many mayors should bring in the national guard – because their police forces do not have the trust of their communities.
But that is not the case most places. While the MSM is lying to our faces claiming this is all peaceful protest, I am not all that happy with those claiming our sities are on the cusp of burning to the ground. Bad things are happening – some by the police, some buy the crowds.
Mostly those seem to be in only a few communities.
Mostly the protests really are peaceful.
Mostly the police really are doing their job respectfully.
In the places that is not happening – let the mayors and governors sort that out, and hold THEM accountable when they fail.
But Mattis has jumped the shark. This is uncalled for, and if he does not grasp that what he is saying is wrong on the facts and the law and amounts to inciting mutiny, then something is very wrong with his mental health.
https://www.redstate.com/darth641/2020/06/06/opinion-general-mattis-gets-it-wrong/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=opinion-general-mattis-gets-it-wrong&utm_content=1&utm_campaign=PostPromoterPro
For something a bit lighter.
https://babylonbee.com/news/powerful-protesters-spell-out-love-with-burning-homes-and-businesses?utm_content=buffer1a6d9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
In 2019 9 unarmed blacks were killed by police.
I first heard this from Tucker Carlson who ran a photo and a details explanation of each one.
Several resulted in charges filed against the police officer.
Several did not – unarmed is not undangerous and several of these unarmed black men attacked police.
But I am sometimes skeptical of Carlson’s data. He claimed it was from WaPo – which contradicts Rick’s reuters data claiming that blacks are less likely to be armed than whites.
Anyway Andrew MacCarthy is confirming the Carlson data.
And so is Heather MacDonald who is pretty much the expert of race and police violence.
There are many things wrong with our policing.
But unarmed blacks being killed by police officers is rare.
It is twice as common as people killed by lightning each year
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/the-institutional-racism-canard/
A stated goal of the protests and riots is to “defund the police.”
An replace “racist” police with nationalized law enforcement? Or spend the money on social programs? Maybe something less extreme, or as this Vox article states: “The “defund” slogan dances ambiguously between abolition-type schemes and just saying officials should spend less money on policing at the margins. ” https://www.vox.com/2020/6/3/21276824/defund-police-divest-explainer
Many GOP politicians have suggested more targeted and specific reforms, which would likely be more cost effective. Things like ending qualified immunity, curtailing or eliminating police unions, and eliminating unnecessary laws (ex: Eric Garner, a black man who was killed while resisting arrest in NYC, was being arrested for selling “looseys” that is, individual cigarettes…a pack of cigarettes in NYC costs about $20, so, for people who just want to have a smoke, and not buy a whole pack, it’s a good way to make a little money. Spend $20, and sell the loosey’s for $2-$4 each.
Functioning state and local governments should be able to come up with reasonable and moderate reforms.
Emphasis on the word “functioning.”
Nationalize Law Enforcement ? Really ?
That would be a stupid idea and would require a constitutional amendment.
The constitution delegates police powers to the state.
Further what is it that you expect to gain from this ?
I do not want any president in this country controlling both the police and the military.
It is near certain we will be looking at reforms to the police after this.
Unfortunately we will probably federally fund those.
There are lots of changes we could make that I support.
I have discussed some of those.
But I have zero expectation that any of those will happen.
I will also bet that the result of this is MORE police and MORE spending on police.
If those on the left actually stick to cutting anything I would be shocked
Ending Qualified immunity would be an excellent idea – though the worst problems with qualified immunity are the court decisions that have structured the way it is put into effect, not the concept. Regardless, Qualified immunity should be ended – not just for police but prosecutors and judges. It is very very very rare that you can successfully sue a cop, prosecutor or judge even without qualified immunity, but in the instances that you could the conduct is egregious – prosecutors or police hiding evidence, framing people judges taking bribes.
We should also end the militarization of the police and radically cut back on SWAT teams. We should make noknock warrants almost impossible to get and we should return to serving warrants during normal hours again except very very rare instances.
Another issue that was true in Furgesson and appears to be true in Mineapolis and St Paul that is going to require increasing police spending is ending policing for profit.
Many many cities have police departments writing rashes of nusiance citations to raise money. I would note – this is NOT driven by the police, but the city counsels.
Regardless we should end that practice but doing so will increase city deficits.
Mostly I do not think this is a GOP issue and republicans should stay out of it.
It is not a federal issue – beyond the possibility of better Federal policing of local police.
About the only thing the federal government should do is eliminate funding of local police.
Much of that is paying for the militarization of police. Regardless, the cost of local police is a matter for local governments, not the federal government.
Local communities should decide on their own policing and how much they are prepared to pay for it.
Personally I think that government employees should not be allowed to unionize.
A view shared by FDR. The problems within police unions are prevalent in all public unions.
It is easier to get a bad teacher prosecuted for a crime than fired.
But think the odds of going that far are near zero. The simpler reforms are to address union contract provisions regarding discipline. Finding the appropriate way to deal with disciplining or firing public employees that is not rife with abuse is going to be difficult. But when it is easier to charge a police officer with a crime than to terminate them, that is a big problem.
There are several other possible federal reforms. Those involve gathering data. Today a large amount of the national crime data that is gathered is essentially voluntarily provided by police. And that process is horribly inconsistent. At the moment on of the best sources of information on police shootings is the Washington Post which gathers it from newspaper stories accross the country. Kudos to the post. But the federal government tracks the same information, but it is generally recognized as highly inaccurate because local police are not obligated to provide the information.
We should have better national crime data. We should mandate alot of reporting rather than making it optional.
I also beleive we should mandate federal reporting of allegations of misconduct by police and teachers. It should not be possible for a person with a record of poor conduct to move to another town, another state and duck their records.
There is no right to be a police officer – or teacher. We should be culling the “bad apples” rather than waiting until we can jail them. But we also need to understand that means you are going to see rising numbers of questionable dismissals. You can not acheive perfection.
It is not possible to construct any employment arrangement – and especially a government employment arrangement that is perfect or will not be abused.
Absolutely we should eliminate stupid laws.
BTW the prohibition against selling looseys is to protect state tobacco tax revenue.
one of the ways those taxes are circumvented is buying cigarettes in one state and selling them in another. If you break them out of their cartons to sell, individual packs and individual cigarettes do not have tax stamps so you can not tell where they are from.
In cities like NYC cigarette tax revenues are enormous.
With few exceptions these are entirely local problems.
I think Trump has handled this badly – I am sure we will get rants from Jay to that effect.
But This is not Trump’s problem. Outside of DC, Trump has near zero role in local law enforcement. About the only thing he could do is send in the national guard – just as Eisenhower did.
Overall I think it would be unwise for him to do so.
Normally I think it would be unwise to call in the national guard for this at all.
However in specific instances I think that is necescary right now. There are specific cities such as Mineapolis and St Paul where the conflict between police and protestors is just way too great and the protestors trust the NG more than their police.
I also think that the NG provides significant numerical suppliments to the police.
I would note though I think many protestors are behaving well, there is still way to much violence and looting.
Protesting should be barred after dark and should be confined to public venues – if we are going to protest government – we do so at city hall or in city parks. Not in commercial centers. We should not be interfering with the right to protest, but we can regulate within reason WHERE protests can occur. This is again where NG is useful. You can have mobile and fixed NG units providing security in areas where there are not supposed to be protests.
It only takes a few NG to cover a block if they can call for reinforcements should large numbers start to show up.
This nonsense that the destruction of property is not violence MUST STOP.
The businesses being torched serve the very minority communities. The consequences of this could harm those communities for decades. Businesses will die, or leave, insurance rates will go up. Prices in those communities will rise.
This is self harm
We are also seeing a serious problem with a “catch and release”. A gofundme has been created for those arrested that now has $24M in it, and no distinctions are being made between vandals and protestors.
I do not know exactly how to deal with this. But some suggestions are that those accused of vandalism should be held for atleast 24hrs no matter what. Those who are arrested a 2nd time within 30 day should be held longer and with higher bail.
It is not easy to tell the protestors from the looters and violent – especially not at the jails.
Nor do I fully trust the police to classify people correctly.
Next I think that Trump’s designation of Antifa as a terrorist organization is a big deal.
The FBI should be getting involved. They should be getting surveilance video, they should be trying to get people to provide the video they have of looters.
Like it or not we now live in a public surveilance state and the looters and thugs can be identified after the fact and dealt with. I would also suggest this applies to the police – the FBI can be using surveilance video and citizen provided video and police body cam video to identify both ‘protestors” who are being violent to police and police who are responding with excessive force.
Regardless, everyone should know that regardless of what happens in the moment, that after the fact there are likely to be consequences.
There are claims that people are placing caches of incindiaries and bricks. I do not know if that is true – but we should be able to use surveilance videos to catch many of them.
It is possible that the claims that there are white supremecist instigators or Antifa ones are true. Or not. Regardless it is quite reasonable to put the FBI on determining of outside groups fanned the violence.
I do not give a shit if you are a white nationalist or Antifa, if you joined the protests with the purpose of engaging in or inciting violence – you should face severe consequences.
I personally suspect there is no white supremecist involvement, but investigate and let the chips fall where they may.
Ilhan Omar’s statement on this:
“The Minneapolis Police Department has proven themselves beyond reform.
It’s time to disband them and reimagine public safety in Minneapolis.”
Eric Garcetti and Bill DiBlasio have expressed support for major defunding of the LAPD and NYPD.
My opinion is that, if Joe Biden signs on to this insanity, Trump will win in a landslide.
Absolutely. These are all left wing nut cities. I will not stop their self destruction.
Let LA, NYC, … all “re-imagine” policing.
Sounds like I am not visiting a major city any time soon.
Just about all major studies claiming HCQ is dangerous and inneffective are from this single source, and there studies are being retracted from major medical journals.
This does not make HCQ a “game changer”. But it means studies will continue and the claims that it is particularly dangerous are crap.
Solid proof that it is effective – or ineefective is still elusive.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/04/lancet-retracts-major-covid-19-paper-that-raised-safety-concerns-about-malaria-drugs/
This does not directly address the Awful SCOTUS decision on churches.
But it is near certain returning.
Roberts was wrong to pretend that CA was not treating similar things differently – engaging in content based descrimination. But by allowing protests – the “mask is off” so to speak.
There is no significant matters exception to content based descrimination.
If we can protest – we can go to church.
https://ij.org/cje-post/the-virus-doesnt-care-what-you-say-nor-should-the-government/
John Roberts, another “F”ed up George W decision that has totally screwed up the country for years.
Dave, this ones for you since you say voters are mostly intelligent and are not brainwashed by the media.
https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/social_issues/37_of_voters_under_40_say_social_media_influence_their_politics?fbclid=IwAR1A_seqKi6SQihYsnnsWyCjrX1Gl8OIFWaHBXCcINyy3twx6jgwadGgsFM
And this is just the percentage that were honest.
What about this bothers you ?
Everyone gets information somewhere.
What does getting it from SM mean ?
My twitter feed has all kinds of nuts saying all kinds of things. I follow those on the left and the right and others.
But I read those to see what the left is saying or the right. Not so much for facts.
But I also have follows that provide linkes to articles and data.
I am not saying everyone does what I do, only that you can use SM to be deluded or to be informed.
Though probably you are better served than by talking heads on MSM
“What about this bothers you ?”
Are you really asking this?
Answer: Stupid, ignorant, brainwashed voters resulting in piss poor candidates like Obama, Clinton, Biden, Trump. Thats just the president. Want me to list congressional piss poor candidates? How about Christine O’Donnell, Delaware in 2008, the witch follower. And many more.
When 30%+ voters get crap on social media and believe it, they make a difference in elections. When parties allow ignorant people to vote in primaries, we get stuck with Trump/Clinton…..Trump/Biden and then have to decide what shit stinks less.
I understand there is lots of crap out there, I also grasp that you think most are badly informed. That may be true.
But I would venture at the same time that we actually have the best informed electorate ever.
Bad in your terms ? Yest, but still much better than the past
I care far more about censorship than crappy information.
The truth is out there – if you want it you can find it.
I am constantly providing you with what I beleive to be compelling data supporting a much more libertarian societal structure.
Milton Friedman did the same thing 50 years ago.
What is the difference ? Friedman dedicated his life to it. He spent unbeleivable amounts of time just getting data – data was really really hard to come by, BTW Adam Smith did essentially the same thing with even crappier data 200 years earlier
Smith, Friedman and I come to the exact same conclusions from the data.
So what is different ?
Ultimately, you had to just trust Smith and Friedman. None of us had the ability to replicate their work without devoting massive amounts of their life to it.
While anything I have done can be done by anyone. You can replicate it all, you can get the data from many sources. You can find intermediaries and not have to do as much work or you can grab 40-50 studies that do the same work for you and decide if you trust them.
Yes, there is lots of crap out there. But it is not all that hard to separate out the wheat from the chaffe – if you want to.
While we may have more badly educated young adults than ever, they are not stupid.
And like every prior generation they will learn as they grow older,
and they have the information to learn from like no prior generation has.
Interesting. Same info out of USA, China and others. This one just a little more detailed.
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1291931/coronavirus-symptom-update-blood-type-a-risk-infection-covid-19
Over time we will see alot more of this.
We have massive amounts of data. People are increasingly looking deeper and deeper.
I am not offering the study below as absolute fact, merely as the kind of studies that are increasingly being done, and the results we are starting to see.
One expert computer modeling group using the IMIE models to back forecast using the data we now have has published a paper concluding:
It is unlikely that any government response anywhere in the world had any consequential effect. They beleive that all differences between all countries in the world correlate statistically much more strongly to factors that have nothing to do with government actions.
Factors like diet, latitude, demographics, genetic difference.
They did NOT make claims the specific effects of specific factors.
One of the study leaders was asked about Vitamin D as an example, and he said that we certainly an intriguing candidate, but that the purpose of their study was to identify the effectiveness of government measures and his conclusion is there is no statistical support for any government measure being effective. He allowed for the possibility that isolation and social distancing worked – but stated if true there was no difference in how they worked when compelled, that people appear to have inplimented social distancing and isolation accross the world whether compelled or not.
Finally their results suggest that atleast 50% of the population was naturally immune to C19 before the outbreak, and that another 30% had very high but not complete natural immunity.
This was one of the strongest findings. That if you took the existing models – like the IMIE model that predicted massive numbers of deaths if we did nothing and added substantial natural immunity, that the results nearly perfectly matched what has actually happened.
And this works very well overall, and on each country.
Most of the HCQ is really dangerous and makes things worse studies apparently originated from the same source, and all papers from that source have been withdrawn for serious methodilocal problems.
There have been lots of claims – and I am not offering them as correct, that there is a significant blood related element to C19. That the distinctions between those who live and those who die have less to do with respiratory effects and more to do with effects related to blood. Some common symptoms to C19 are curculatory not respiratory.
There have even been claims that the effect of HCQ is related to blood and hemoglobin, not many of the other postulates.
All of the diseases that HCQ is traditionally used to treat are blood related diseases – malaria, lupus, arthritis.
This is definitely an area of further study.
MSNBC announge they hired Lisa Page as a legal analyst.
What is next ?
https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewCMcCarthy/status/1269052157304745985
Unfortunately, your moderate view would fall upon deaf ears, for at this point everyone is convinced by BLM that there is indeed “Systemic racism.” So what does that mean? I interpret this as racism is interwoven into the system, but how do you unravel such a beast? You would have to parse through every policy and law and examine it axiomatically to determine whether or not it favors one group (whites) over others (blacks). It would have to be revised and reformed at both a state and federal level. This would take a ridiculous amount of time. But for now, BLM wants to convince me that I am racist, then “de-program” my racism as a white male. For some reason, this unnerves me; sort of like some backwards acting brainwashing, and it certainly messes with your head.
I mean for God’s sakes, most of my ancestors were post civil war European immigrants from what I can tell, so why am I getting sucked into this mess?
There is no possible additional information that could alter the fact that what happened to George Floyd was wrong.
Police are people, some of them are bad. Further the bad could not flourish without the good turning a blind eye.
But unless you presume that even though black people report crime in their neighborhoods twice as frequently as whites, there still should be exactly the same proportion of arrests and convictions and shootings and misconduct between blacks and whites proportionate to race.
Reject that perfect proportionateness at all levels and there is no evidence of systemic racism.
There are a few instances of laws that are harder on minorities – there laws are typically the consequence of the fears of minority legislators of a crack epidemic that would destroy their communities 40 years ago. They are not the consequence of white racism.
I will be happy to discuss what should be done to improve policing – and there is much that can be done.
But there is no evidence of systemic racism.
I have said this before. It is still true. We live in the least racist moment in history (except tomorow) in the least racist country in the world.
I was alive for the summer of rage. This is a hiccup.
I hope it will result in some changes – there is a long list that would be a good idea.
But racism is not the problem with our policing.
And infact half the problems with policing have little to do with the officers and mostly to do with the local government.
Many communities engage in policing for profit and are shocked when their citizens are angry and when the number of incidents of conflict with police rises or the relationship of community members with the police declines.
Listen man, you don’t have to convince me of anything. What you need to do is convince the BLM movement en masse that there isn’t any systemic racism. What you need to do is convince prominent, rational leaders of the black community that there isn’t any systemic racism. What you need to do is convince the international world who are witnessing this event that the US has no systemic racism. What you need to do is convince every member of the black community that has experienced some form of “racial aggression” that there is no systemic racism. You can weave arguments and parse statistics all you want, but I am doubtful you will have many converts to your cause. This would be a Hurculean task that would make the cleaning of the Aegean stables seem like an enviable activity. This is the reality that the BLM movement has crafted, however, and everyone is going along with it.
Really my main points are this:
1. How do you satisfy the black community to the point that they believe there is no or substantially little systemic racism? What do they want from their local, state, and to a certain extent federal government?
2. What is the BLM movement playing at? Who and/or what is part of this racism that is supposedly so prevalent in our nation?
Where does this cross the line of constructive social reform into the realm of finger pointing and witch hunting?
I do not need to convince anyone.
While some of the rest of the world might like to smile and pretend they are better than we are. I think they no better. No Eurpopean nation handles minorities better than the US,
No non-anglo countries do better than the anglo ones.
There is a fairly obvious effort by the left to coopt the black community.
There is no doubt they will vote much more democrat than republican for now, but I think there are lots of chinks.
DeDantis beat Gillium on the strength of 300K single black women with kids in cyber charters that Gillium promised to end. Those mothers voted their kids futures. They voted real programs that are here now to help, not many decades of false promises.
I think that minority faith in the left is declining. While there is radical progressive blacks.
They are less common than among whites.
More blacks are working class or middle class, they do not share the values of white elites.
Increasingly they want jobs, not handouts. More they not only want jobs, but they better understand that hard work leads to success. They do not want a free ride they want oportunity.
We are starting to see proposals from these protests. Sime are bat shit crazy left wing nut insane – eliminate the police, or defund them, but many are very good ideas.
Eliminating qualified immunity is an excellent idea.
Eliminating asset forfieture is too
There is an attack on all forms of policing for profit.
These people know that policing for profit means government parasitic off of them.
Reigning in the militarization of police is an excellent idea.
Reigning in the power of police unions is too.
If even some of that comes about that will improve their communities.
These are NOT democratic or progressive ideas.
They are libertarian ideas.
Or limited government conservative ideas.
Unfortunately there are not enough conservaitves behind them – when applying these ideas to minority communities.
Even the core wedge issue – police killings, To a large extent that is more a proxy, for policing that is an external army of occupation.
Blacks report crimes TWICE the frequency whites do.
They WANT law and order, They WANT safe communities.
They also want a police force that can figure out the difference between the criminals and the citizens.
There is lots of stupid things being said in these protests.
But many things being said are not stupid.
and a significant part of the stupid is coming from the left.
I do not think it is happening today.
but cracks have already started between minorities and progressives.
They are going to widen over time.
Libertarians and conservatives need to be prepared to deliver when minorities say “you said you could do better, put up or shut up” that time is coming.
The New York Times burns its own integrity
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/what-is-fact-checking-without-facts/
“All the virtue-signaling that’s fit to print.” The so-called newspaper of record is turning into a propaganda machine.
This is long, but it is excellent.
Honest questions:
Since most of the cities that have seen recent rioting are cities that have been largely governed by Democrats for years, if not decades, isn’t it the epitome of gaslighting for anyone to say that Trump and/or Republicans are responsible for “systemic racism,” or that Democrats will fix it?
Add to that, the fact that Joe Biden has spent his entire career in federal government, almost 4 decades in the Senate and 8 years as VPOTUS, yet has never done a single thing about the systemic racism that he now claims exists and that he says he has always opposed, isn’t he a liar, an incompetent, or both?
Add to that, the fact that, in 3 years, Trump achieved the prison reform that Democrats have long promised, as well as record low black unemployment, not to mention creating “opportunity zones” (https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/opportunity-zones-frequently-asked-questions#general) to encourage investment and business development in underserved areas of our cities that have been largely ignored, isn’t that reason enough for rational black voters to vote for him, as opposed to Biden?
What we are seeing is the same garbage we have seen from the left (and democrats) for eons.
They make a problem, and then often far too successfully find a way to blame it on others.
Republicans, conservatives, Trump.
We saw a version of this recently with the Two Karen’s in Central Park.
Even if you conclude that Amy Cooper is hopelessly racist – she is also hopelessly progressive and a Biden supporter.
Had she been one of the Few Trump supporters in Manhattan we would have heard it trumpeted to the sky’s.
Lets assume our police forces are hopelessly racist.
I do not think mineapolis or DC has had a republican mayor in my lifetime.
Our purportedly systemically racist police, are the product of decades of oversight, control and administration by democrats, and in most instances minority mayors, city counsels.
If the police are deeply flawed – why haven’t they fixed it ?
Why aren’t they seeking to fix it now ?
Pretty much the entirety of federal involvement in local policing has a negative impact on policing. The good news is that federal involvement in local policing is quite small.
I would note that Biden is up to his ass in everything that is wrong with federal negative influence on policing.
I recently saw a 2016 campaign video where a democrat claimed Hillary had a better resume and more experience than Trump.
A resume that is a long list of failures is NOT a good resume.
But I do not want to be TOO critical of Biden. Because contra the current protests, and racist police naratives, the fact is that policing is quite important to people – white people AND black people.
Biden’s deep involvement in policing is not some effort on his part to create a neo-nazi police force. It is an effort to help people to be safe from crime in their homes and communities.
Biden cares, because it is important, it is something that people actually want – even black people.
While Biden is up to his ass in bad laws involving local policing. The goal was to make minority communities specifically safer.
We should be outraged at what was done to George Floyd. But an unarmed Black man is nearly 800 times more likely to be killed by another black man than a cop.
One of the reasons I think that Trump should mostly stay out of this is that, he should not prevent democrats from self destructing.
There is a huge and surprisingly successful effort to spin this as a Trump or republican problem. It is not, and it is moderately easy for republicans and Trump to avoid that blame.
And that is mostly to STAY OUT.
Let the protestors, etc, provide solutions to whatever problems they beleive exist.
I highly doubt nonsense like “defund the police” stands the slightest chance of happening.
No republican needs do or say a thing.
There is no federal police power. Policing is a matter for the states – and is mostly local.
This is a transcript of a Call between Sec State Clinton and the Egyptian Foreign minister While the Benghazi attack was still going on.
Simply while the attack was taking place Clinton knew – as likely did Rice and Powers and Obama, and if not then within hours, that Al Queda had committed a terrorist attack against the US.
And for weeks they LIED to all of us about it.
https://truthuncensored.net/breaking-state-dept-releases-phone-transcript-of-hillary-admitting-she-knew-benghazi-was-planned-attack-3/
Oh, My god, hell is going to freeze over.
For the first half of this I am in complete agreement with AOC.
But budgets are not our moral priorities. Government is constrained to negative morality not positive morality.
Some examples of TDS
https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/the-lying-about-donald-trump-is-now-completely-out-of-control/
https://babylonbee.com/news/governor-cuomo-orders-nursing-homes-to-admit-rioters?utm_content=bufferb82eb&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
When I saw the photo of the Democrat Party leaders kneeling, all draped in Kente cloth, with one even wearing a Kente cloth face mask, I actually thought it was some sort of photoshopped joke.
I honestly thought it was from some conservative site, making fun of the blatant pandering and virtue-signalling by Democrats. But no, it was real. Almost 9 minutes of kneeling, followed by Queen Nancy frantically waving one of her staffers over, to help her stand (“I’ve been kneeling, and I can’t get up!”) and giggling (in embarrassment?) afterwards.
And these people have the gall to mock Trump for staging a photo op in front of the burned and boarded up Church of Presidents, holding the bible on which he took his oath of office?
If Trump should be embarrassed for doing that, the Dems should be equally shamed, not only for staging a photo op of them taking a knee, but for the cultural appropriation of a traditional African fabric, worn by a bunch of old, rich, mostly white politicians, trying to look as if they care about racism, except when they can use it to gain political leverage.
Goose, gander. Meanwhile, the NYT forced the resignation of a respected, long time editor who allowed a sitting GOP Senator’s op-ed to be published. God forbid we allow both sides to state their case!
I need to stop watching the news for a couple of weeks. Took a lovely sail on the lake last night at sunset, and forgot about all this crap, and now I’m annoyed again! Roby, you have the right idea.
So far this appears to be playing our well. From all appearances much of the public is accepting this as reasonable.
But I think it is insanely stupid and am fully expecting a huge backlash.
Trump has been falling in the polls, but I am strongly suspicious that is because many of HIS supporters and not happy that he is not doing enough.
Way too much of what is occuring right now channels the worst moments in history – the french revloution, the russian revolution, the chinese revolution.
Where the bourgeoisie had to prostrate themselves to the proletariat and beg forgiveness for class sins.
That ended universally in bloodshed and this scares the shit out of me.
I have been on the left side of the culture war – atleast so far as the desired outcome – not the methods.
But I am constantly betrayed by those I supported when they acquire rights and power.
I have watched as gay people turned from the persecuted to the persecutors of christians.
Not I am watching as minorities do much what their past oppressors did.
It is one thing to ask someone else to walk a mile in your shoes.
It is radically different to coerce them into it.
An eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
When the oppressed become the oppressor – the world does not improve.
Tuning out of the news is invigorating. And you even still hear enough to decide what you want to investigate, which is not much for me. I am into old T.V programming and watching episodes of Mrs America, Homeland and others on Hulu. Getting weather from local website and not even watching or reading anything sports because all it is has to do with BLM and millionaire athletes or billionaire owners.
My daughter and family has just arrived from Utah, moving back to N.C. She made a comment that they have not watched any news or connected with social media, other than messenger since February. But somehow they knew to avoid staying in city lodging to avoid the riots in the 4 night stays so we do get the important stuff when needed.
And my two other kids said they have tuned out everything. TV for streaming, Facebook messenger, nothing else.
But now you have tweaked my interest, so need to find paralyzed queen Nancy and that picture.
Crime in NYC is up 400% – and that is discounting the riots and looting – because the police are spending all their time dealing with protests and the criminals know that response times are way down.
NYPD is growing increasingly pissed at how they are being treated, by the mayor and governor and their own brass.
They have had 600 retirements this week. The unions are talking about a strike or slowdown.
It would be wise for politicians to understand that no matter how we may feel about problems with police – we likely need them more than they need us.
As we look to put more restrictions on police, we can expect pushback from them,
and they have enormous power.
We know that in the years after Fergesson Crime their rose dramatically.
This is one of the reasons Barr is not using Consent decree’s
In every city that Obama got a consent decree forcing law enforcement changes, Crime doubled.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/nypd-police-prepare-to-leave-force-saying-top-brass-abandoned-them
In large cities like NYC it is not unusual that police would not believe “top brass” was not supporting them. Hell, the police commissioner is a political hack in the pocket of the mayor.
Didnt read the article. Could care less what happens in big liberal cities that blame everyone else for their problems. After many business fails due to shutdowns, others get burned down and more leave due to crime, the only thing that will result is just another Detroit before revitalization started. And Detroit might lose that. And then they can blame the federal government for all their ills.
I do not particularly care about NYPD and NYC.
But I care about what happens – because it effects all of us.
We have spent 4 years Attacking Trump for imprecession and a bit of political anarchy.
Look arround. At this moment the political space is almost totally dominated by the left.
We are discussion the issues the left wants discussed.
How is that going ? Complete and total chaos.
The slogan of the moment is “defund police” – we are told by some, we should not fear that.
It does not really mean and end to police as we know it. At the same time others are telling us – that is exactly what it means.
Not only are we seeing conservative and libertarain voices silenced. We are seeing LOTS of progressives who are not sufficiently progressive silenced.
There is alot going on. Lots of people are behaving badly.
Aparently confederate statutes can not be removed, but Lincoln, Churchill are clearly racist.
Much that is going on reminds us of the taliban in Afghanistan, or the Cultural revolution in China.
In Seattle protestors have taken over City Hall – thank god they are no burning stores and homes. The Mayor is being excoriated for not vowing to “defund the police”
This is Seattle only behind Portland and San Francisco in Progressive tilt.
Purportedly we are in the midst of Anti-Trump backlash – and if you beleive the polls that should be true. Yet, the fire – right and left is against the progressive democrats leading the major cities in this country. Mayor Frey who has prostrated himself to the left in justabout every possible way was booed, shooted down and driven from public space.
The Seattle Mayor is in hiding, City Hall occupied.
Gone with the Wind – which had the first black academy award has been pulled.
When I want to stream Dead Still from Amazon – I must watch a political message from Amazon. While it is Inoccuous it is still creepy and shades of 1984. It is bad enough that left writers have tried to embed political messages in every movie and TV show for decades.
This is overt – and creepy.
I am trying to figure out all this kneeling.
The players, the NFL can do as they wish, and the fans can respond.
Police, Mayors are different. Government officials subordinating themselves to political groups is … Creepy.
There are times I see video of police and protestors taking a knee together and it seems right. And there are others that even if I can not say why are very wrong.
There have been examples of police behaving badly, and police behaving well.
And I am hopeful that some of a long list of necessary reforms might occur.
At the same time there are rumblings, quiet and not so quiet musings from the police in NYC and elsewhere that they are getting tired of being made the tar baby in this.
That if they are not wanted, they just might go home.
This moment is unsettling. I am accused repeatedly here of being an anarchist.
Libertarians are not anarchists – look around, that is Anarchy.
It is also increasingly self evident that the swedes were right – you can not lock everything down for long. People will not tolerate it. Two weeks ago we have armed lockdown protestors, Today it is BLM. If the latter are not littlerally protesting the lockdown, the scale of the protests are amplified by the lockdown.
We need to get back to work. We need to do so – even if people die. We need to do so, because it should be obvious now that shutting down the country leads to anarchy and violence – and death.
3 months ago George Floyd had a job. He had a really bad past, but had been getting his life together for the past 6 years. By memorial day he was an adict, high on fentanol, passing conterfeit 20’s and getting murdered by cops. That is what months of lockdown does to us.
Dave, I live 10 miles from my city. I live on 60 acres of land. There is one way in by car on my property and only one way out. They have been marching in town and yesterday, with the protection of the cops, shut down 6 lanes of interstate 40.
I now own a rifle that is nor bolt action. Someone comes on my property, they get one warning and then bullets will begin flying. I will aim to miss the first few, but after that, who knows. I just know I am not going down easily. No Jay, I have not lost it, I am only defending what is mine, unlike so many you see in cities just bending over and taking the “liberal staff” up their a@#!
And what they do in New York, Seattle, L.A., San Diego, Cleveland or any other city, I could care less now. They say the south is racist, but do a search on police brutality and compare the number of instance in the deep south to that in the north! The right has shown how impotent they are when it comes to leftist dictatorial rule during the past 3+ months. They have done nothing to challenge most edits the “Kings of each state” have instituted and if they did, leftist Roberts would side with the left because he would not want “The Roberts Court” tied to the spread of the virus. He would rather have it tied to loss if rights.The right has shown everyone that the bill of rights means nothing except for the right to assemble arm and arm and march down city streets, burn cities and kill cops. And maybe because liberals want their idiotic conversations on smart phones secret, they would fight unlocking cell phones. That is what all the Democrats support today or they would not be kneeling, they would be standing up for the rights over 1.5 million military men and women have lost their lives fighting for since 1775.
So you can boo hoo all about what is happening, but it will do no good. The only thing one can do now is sit back, watch what is happening ( if you still watch the news), and tell everyone injured or harmed, “you have my condolences” and move on. And after the election, dont crab about over reach by government and all the programs that is going to happen because all those intelligent voters you defend are the ones that will be giving us that government. And they are the ones defending what is happening today.
Ron,
I understand that you could care less about others.
I am not claiming that you should.
But I am pondering what is going on.
You have your rifle, and are prepared to defend yourself.
In a different time your choice might have appeared more questionable.
Right now it seems rational.
I am asking if others are thinking the same ?
If we are going to decrease the police,
Isn’t it reasonable for people to assume they must defend themselves ?
In areas of Mineapolis, NYC, LA, Seattle, the police, even the government have withdrawn.
If you live there, work there or have your business there – what do you do ?
The police are not protecting you.
For the vast majority of us throughout the country it is likely the police will be there to protect us or or property should we need them.
But were are learning that likely is not certainty.
If you live, work, or have a business in the wrong spot in america today – you are own your own.
The area arround City Hall in Seattle has been declared a police free zone. ‘
‘
The social contract is that you cede your right to use force to government in return for government protecting your rights.
When government has no intention of doing that – we are lawless and must defend ourselves.
A few of us have had that obligation imposed on them suddenly right now.
Many have died or been financially destroy as a result.
But all of us have to think about that possibility.
At the moment Biden’s polls are rising.
Do Jay and Robby and all the TDS crowd think that will continue as more and more people come to the realization that the left is playing games with their safety.
There are few on the planet that want policing reform than I.
But reform is not elimination.
If you are looking to transform policing – I am very open to discussions.
But i want to know what you are doing and how my family, my property will be safer.
No matter what you mean when you say “defund planned parent hood”, It is prefectly clear that means less government paid for abortions.
What does “defund police” mean ?
On a major economic blog discussions about an old idea – relieving the police of traffic control has emerged. That sounds fine to me.
We do not enforce building codes and health codes with police.
Traffic stops are dangerous in this country – precisely because armed police are sometimes confronting armed criminals.
We do not have thousands of violent encounters per year at traffic stops because drivers are angry about traffic tickets.
There is no need for armed police to enforce traffic laws, if the consequences are fines.
Separate the enforcement of traffic laws from the rest of policing. We do not need the same skills, or training. Traffic safety officers do not need guns or tasers, or handcuffs or billy clubs. If someone refuses to pull over or fails to follow the directions of a traffic safety officer THEN call the police
Traffic safety and crime fighting have no more overlap than crime fighting and restaurant inspections.
Regardless, I have no problems discussing a variety of means to restructure things in our country.
But ultimately the edicts of government are enforced by “men with guns”.
I have vigorously opposed to the explosion of laws.
But opposition to too many laws is not the same as a desire for anarchy.
I expect that “men with guns” will protect my life and property, I expect that when my rights are violated by force that “men with guns” will seek out those who have done so and bring them to justice.
If you are hinting that may not be the case – we are not talking a libertarian future,
you are talking anarchy.
Dave, I believe we discussed the issue with the liquor store owner in Santa Monica that was defending his store with a rifle and told rioters they would die if they came toward his store. They moved toward a gold store and a couple guys with the liquor store owner went over a protected the gold store from looters. This is where we are today. Pack and defend or move out of the way and let the loot and burn.
The liberals are not going to protect crap. The only thing they are interested in is defeating Trump. If it takes burning down cities and making everyone think Trump cant keep us safe, that is what they will do. They are not looking at the cause of black deaths other than “men in blue”. The liberal leaders are not supporting the 500,000 officers and the 499,500 that never get a complaint, they are condemning 500,000 because 500 are being protected by corrupt unions or supervisors that will not fire the bad apples.
Why do you think most of the problems are in bleeding heart liberal cities? Might it be the strength of the police unions in the union states? Could it be unions in the south work closer with Chiefs and are jot as powerful? Whatever the reason there is something going on in northern cities with 500,000+- population having multiple police issues in the news, but cities like Dallas with 1.5M seems to never be in the news. Are they just better at sweeping it under the rug?
Do you really think a police officer is going to risk his life protecting those that would beat the crap out if him given a chance? How does he know if you call about a prowler that its not a trap? NYC has already seen hundreds of retirements since this started. The police union boss was on natlonal news. Would you bet there is not going to be some slow down in response time, especially in the elitest hoods where all the rich liberals live?
As for traffic cops, most medium to large cities have traffic, homocide, crime, (swat, if big enough) and other divisions. They are already separate. And the ones that are notbarnt the cities with blue on black violence!
My city has 50 opening for officers to replace officers taking other jobs or retiring. They could only recruit 30 and the chief has said each year it gets harder to recruit quaiified people. The military, which fed many department, now finds men avoiding police work. Can you blame them?
And last, I am not saying southern police departments dont have ” driving while black” or ” walking while black” problems. That can be changed. I just believe racism in the north has always been as bad as in the south, just manifest itself differently. Remember how liberals forced desegregation on the southern schools, but fought to the end in Boston trying to keep blacks out of white schools?
I do not disagree with what you are saying.
i am just thinking about the parts you claim not to care about.
How does this effect how people think ? Politics ?
I am surprised not to hear Jay crowing about Biden’s polls.
I am asking – do you think that is real ? Not just Biden’s polls,
Are those on the right going to stay home in November and buy guns ?
Is everyone in the middle and the left oblivious to the fact that we are embracing anarchy and asking for crime and chaos ?
We have a historical model. In times of Chaos, the people do not choose teddy bears.
They choose Hitler, Franco, Stalin. Perone,
Sometimes left wing nuts can bring about Chaos an then offer a strong left leader as the antidote.
Is there anyone on the planet that things Biden is the strong leader for tough times ?
As to separating Traffic from policing. Yes, that is SOMEWHAT done in some places.
I am discussing something more dramatic. A traffic entity that has no connection to anything but traffic laws. They do not carry guns, they do not “arrest” people, they issue citations,
That is it.
It is highly unlikely that motorist will shoot the person pulling them over for a tail light.
Obviously there are a few nuts, but even this 62yr old white male is most stressed by a police stop because I can lose alot more than a few bucks or my license.
Every time I am pulled over I go to court. Sometimes with a lawyer, sometimes not.
That is pleasant and stress free even if I am likely to lose.
A traffic stop is dangerous – even for me.
Biden polls..Yes I believe them. Because so many I know that have been life long republicans that say they will not vote or not vote for Trump. Most say they will vote, but not the president election.
So you want “Bobbies” patrolling our streets. Good luck with that, but you might gets your wish. With the Queen, Prince and Biden in power, they might just turn America into Britian.
And no, the gun toeting right is not going to stay home. But too many centrist will vote for Biden
I know the polls are saying otherwise.
But I think Trump is getting re-elected by what is happening right now.
Mire is slowly coming out, it is increasingly clear that these mayors actually allowed this to happen. The Chicago Lightfoot tape just came out.
Democratic aldreman accross the city begging her to send the police in BEFORE the crowds got large and violent and light foot saying FU legitimate protests.
In Mineapolis Major stores have announced there not coming back and other smaller industry is leaving the city.
Everywhere more and more evidence that democratic city government bowed to unruly children and did not care about the carnage.
As to your “southern police departments”.
I have no idea how racist the police are in rural NC.
But that is not the problem that has the country on Fire.
If cops are 10 times as racist in boonyvile NC,
The war between BLM and the police is happening in Chicago, NYC, Mineapolis, LA, and Seattle.
Ron, in your post election apocalyptic scenario how is it that the left moves forward with all those shiny new programs ?
Without “men with guns” government does not work.
Its very easy. Cloak it as keeping you safe. Environment, your safe with farmers land being blocked from plowing. Elimination of right to work laws, Your safer with unions protecting you. Open trad with china, Your safer with Chinese products than American. name it your safer!
They have taken the right to worship away due to safety. They have taken the right to work away due to safety. They have taken the right to move from a house in Detroit and go to your cabin in the country due to safety. They have taken your right to sports in various states, golf, tennis, hiking, biking, etc due to safety.
So whatever the bill of rights has in it is overruled by anything concerning safety. And Roberts will support anything like that along with the other 4 liberal judges.
I am not asking what dingbats think .
I am asking what sane people from the Biden left though say the Kaisich right think.
Unlike you I do do not think all voters are stupid.
” Unlike you I do do not think all voters are stupid. ”
Matter of opinion. If Trump/Clinton or Trump/Biden is reflective of smart voters, I want to avoid your “stupid” at all costs!
“I am asking what sane people from the Biden left though say the Kaisich right think.”
Ok, an example of feedback I am getting. 78 year old female. Retired real estate developed. Developed high rise 6 and 7 digit condos on Florida coast as well as N.C. Adamant Republican as long as I knew her, 1978 until now. Worked for local Republican party in N.C. during elections. She told me two days ago that she could hot vote for Trump again and then listed reasons, most already listed by 43, retired military leaders, etc
Have other friends more moderate that voted for Trump. They might be able to be won back over, but the photo op at the church was their “final straw”. And after that fiasco, you saw Trumps rasmussen approval drop almost overnight from 48%-49% to 38%.
So those are some examples. Bet there are many like them because I dont think there are enough “Spam voters” to get him reelected.
(Spam voters are like people that buy, like and eat Spam, but would never admit it!)
I think the photo op at the church was Odd.
But despite the media ranting, I do not see it as a huge deal.
The fixation seems to be on removing the protestors from Laffeyette Park.
The media has been selling this, government meanies attacking non-violent protestors.
Bat has said – and even the media was reporting – violent protests for 3 days prior to clearing the parks. The park was the coordinating point for throwing rocks at park employees and SS protecting the whitehouse, You know the violence that resulted in the SS dragging trump to “the bunker” – so there is no way to pretend that did not happen and it was not just marchers infront of the WH – that happens everyday for every president.
That coupled with burning st. Johns, and numerous nearby businesses, as well as tearing up paving in the park to throw at police and park employees are what resulted in the park service deciding to clear the park and move the WH permitter 1 block further out. That protect St. Johns, many businesses, deprived rioters of their base in the park protecting businessed outside the permiter somewhat.
The PS made the decision – and they made it in response to PS employees, and SS being pelted with broken up concrete from the park, and they made it shortly after that happened.
Barr approved it the next morning. Barr was interviewed on this and went into detail of the violence of those in the park. The MSM cut most of that from what they aired – though you can find the full interview if you search for it.
Next the very “protestors” were lobbing rocks at Barr shortly before the protestors were pushed out of the park.
So the media fixated on the claim that the protestors were non-violent.
What does that even mean ? If they are not violent at the moment that you move to remove them you have to stop ? The fact that there was significant violence being coordinated out of the park for 3 days prior – for me that is enough.
Further this is DC – the National mall is a few blocks away. If you want to protest – do it there.
That is where the nation protests. It can handle more than 1M people
And I do not care whether this is DC or Trump or …
One of the huge failures here – which mayors are responsible for is NOT moving protestors from residential and commerical and other innappropriate protest spaces to large open government spaces – the mall, capitals, City Hall, … we have the phone call from Chicaog Aldreman to Mayor lightfoot – saying pretty much that.
Basically get these protestors out of our business and residential communities.
Get the police here to move the protestors to government areas.
The photo op was stupid. Clearing the park was smart.
As to votes.
Trump just locked the votes of nearly all of 900K law enforcement in the US.
He likely would have gotten more than Biden before, but now it is overwhelmingly more.
And that is likely to expand into prison guards, fire fighters, retired law enforcement.
Biden had a law and order Rep – he has burned it.
And these people vote.
Next, these stupid calls to “defund the police” – are making people nervous and must ultimately buy Trump voters.
Biden can claim not to support that – but he is too heavily tied to the people who do.
Just as it is hard for Trump to distance himself from those on the right.
It is as hard for Biden to distance himself from the left.
Your in your home with your Rifle. Do you think that people who think they need to be armed because they can not thrust their local government to protect them are voting for Biden ?
I do not understand this drop of support for Trump – but obviously it is real.
That is part of why I am asking you about it.
At the same time – I fully expect the 2nd order effects of these protests/riots to be negative for democrats.
In just a few seconds Democrats revealed their whole C19 claims were a sham – that they did not beleive themselves – or that they did not care.
Or worse still they understood that somethings are worth increases in the death rate.
they picked protests over jobs. over prosperity.
Next, aside from some minor tweet nonense, and this photo op, Trump has not stepped on his d##k.
Fundimentally this is a democrat problem.
This is not redneck cops in the Boonies of Loiusiana. This was a fairly left democratic enclave. The state, the city, all democrat.
If there was “institutional racism” – it was Democratic institutional racism.
Further as much as the MSM tried to downplay this – there are destroyed businesses and burned buildings, and lots of “broken glass”. That is not going away. These mayors own it.
These places will stand as a reminder straight to the election.
The media downplayed things, but even they can not duck the stories forever.
The protestors themselves have attacked their mayors and police cheifs – no amount of prostration saved them. And this is ongoing.
Outside this single event in this park, it is not possible for “protestors” to directly create conflict with Trump. All acts – before and now, are/must occur in the democrat cities.
I know that Trump has demanded that Seattle clear the Seattle Free state crowd.
But he is better off being quiet.
The police are leaving them alone – completely. They will not enforce the law in the Seattle Free State – as a result the occupiers are being forced to govern themselves – and they are doing badly. They already have a “king” of sorts. They have violence. Homeless people stole their food.
Just leave them to make a spectacle of themselves.
Regardless of the polls at the moment.
As people sit back and take a breath.
As this nonsense continues, this works for Trump and not just for Trump, but for republicans generally.
And the last thing is the economy – we are already into recovery.
It is messy and will take a while.
But the economy is going to grow from now to Nov. Strongly. It may not recover to the point it was at the begining of March – but we will see strong steady growth through Nov.
That favors Trump.
What are democrats and the media going to to create another long negative Trump sequence ? More riots ?
Ron, I agree with your statement: “I just believe racism in the north has always been as bad as in the south, just manifest itself differently.” Many northeastern liberals consider themselves superior to “racist southerners,” but when their own neighborhoods and towns start to diversify, they complain that the schools are going downhill.
I read this comment under an article about the radicals who have established an “autonomous” state in the middle of Seattle. It actually made me feel better to know that the extremists appear to be as incompetent as the city government….
” I am a conservative and live near Seattle and this article is slanted. Protestors did not take over city hall. Last night one of the council members let them in. When other council members wanted the police to go there, they refused, saying a city official let them in. They stayed for 2 hours and then left.
As far as the “new republic of capitol hill” is concerned, the area they are occupying has a large park, where they are mostly congregated. Residents there are taking it in stride; police have made it clear if they harass the residents, the police are coming in.
Police are also telling those protestors in the new republic there are no police or other services available to them. When one of them got beat up last night by others of them, complained to police and were told to take it up with the new republic. So far the big issue is they are asking for food donations. Last night a bunch of homeless people showed up and took all their food, lol. Now from time to time they make demands and they are told, you are in the new republic so you don’t get to make demands. This won’t last and police are monitoring them.”
You have made me give into no news freedom and now I have to look this up. This almost would sound like a Babylon Bee report if I did not know where it came from.
Thanks for the good laugh. Hope I can find an article on it.
I read a quote at One of the historic buildings near Madison’s home.
Something to the effect that
Southerner’s do not like “n’###’s as a group, but are fine with them individually
Northerner’s love them as a group, but hate them as individuals.
I hope that progressives all over come to the new republic of seattle.
While Trump has made more than twice the public statements condemning ofc Chauvin than Biden, those rarely get run by the press, but should Trump say anything pro law enforcement, That gets aired. One of the consequences is that Biden has entirely lost the support of police forces accross the country, while Trump is losing support among moderates.
But Crime is rising rapidly in cities accross the country, and the police are getting increasingly pissed they have been overworked for several weeks. they are getting injured in large numbers, and they are getting publicly villified. Further they are very angry with their mayors, and police cheifs who they see as more interested in the safety of criminals than that of their police forces.
Early retirements are way up, Recruitment is way down. and there is rumblings of slowdowns or strikes.
If we are not very careful we may shortly have a head to head conflict between
Black Lives Matter, and Blue Lives Matter.
https://nypost.com/2020/06/08/more-than-700-officers-injured-in-george-floyd-protests-across-us/
This is an excellent and short understanding of what is going on right now, and why we should be very afraid of it.
It is also a good foundation for why ideas, philosophy matters.
The article focuses on Antifa, but aside from the enthusiasm for violence, what is wrong with Antifa is wrong with the entire left – straight through to Biden.
The closest successful example to “throw it all away and start over” is the american revolution, but that was radically different. Colonists went to great trouble to draft a declaration – an argument at law to the institutions that exist justifying by the terms of their time their actions.
our founders posited a new theory of self government. They did not actually for new institutions. The continued English common law, they preserved the states, their governors, and legislators, the courts, law enforcement remained unchanged, Even the US constitution was a reflection of the centuries old unwritten british constitution.
Out founders did not burn things to the ground. They just ended their relationship to a king 3,000 miles aware who no longer gave a shit about them.
The left wants to change everything tomorow, without much thought. Like Rouseau like Antifa, like progressives they assume that if you just blow everything up, things will be better.
https://lawliberty.org/understanding-antifa/
This is an interesting article on the Laffeyette Park mess that appears to be driving the strongest anti-Trump narative
Mayor Bowser is winning the PR war with Trump,
But as Turley notes most of the violent conflicts with police in DC are with her Forces, not with the Park Service, the NG, or SS.
Further Bowser publicly excoriated Trump saying something to the effect that she had never seen a situation where peaceful protestors had been treated so badly.
She is lying or has a very bad memory. Several years ago she was personally responsible for appointing a very confrontational police cheif and orchestrating a far larger and ooenly unconstitutional “attack” on non-violent protestors.
She and her police chief setup up a “trap” for protestors, instead of breaking up the protests,
They baricaded a public park and then drove thousands of non-violent protestors into a “funnel” engaging in one of the largest mass arrests of protestors ever and Civil Libertires lawsuits against DC out the whazzoo.
The Park Service merely relocated protestors out of Leffeyette park. Nearly all left peacefully and few if any were arrested. The goal was eliminating the park as a base of opperations for violence – which it clearly had been on the 3 perceding nights. Not mass arrests.
But god forbid we should let facts get in the awy of a good narrative.
https://jonathanturley.org/2020/06/12/bowsers-historical-revision-before-lafayette-park-there-was-pershing-park/
In april 2019, Tony Tympa, a man with mental heath issues, called the police – on himself, he was off his medication and needed help.
What followed was if anything much worse than what happened to George Floyd, not only was Tympa suffocated in much the same way, but the officers involved joked and made fun of him while he was pleading for help and dying.
None of the officers involved was convicted of any wrong doing.
What was different ? Tympa was white.
This is an excellent, but depressing, column in the National Review.
“The Left is playing with fire, and abolishing the police is only the half of it. They think they can replicate the college campus at the national level. But it’s easier to silence visiting speakers or hapless students than to treat half the citizens of this country as fascists unworthy of rights – especially when what’s actually bothering the Right is the Left’s abandonment of liberal principle, and its embrace of argument-by-accusation-of-bigotry instead.
Classical liberalism arose to prevent murderous civil strife between those who could not agree on ultimate things — and who questioned each other’s good faith as a consequence. Throw aside the marketplace of ideas, throw aside even the aspiration to neutral reporting, and throw aside, on this account, the basic rights of those with whom we disagree, and we are back in the soup, back to the wars, back to the days before liberty and civil peace, the crowning achievements of our history, the history we’ve stopped celebrating — or even remembering. Is that what we want? Because that is where we are headed.”
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/abandoning-liberalism-will-destroy-social-peace/
While the Democrats may benefit in the short term, by aligning with the radical left, I don’t think that they can control it.
Priscilla (and everyone)
There is a young black male who post items on You Tube, Joel Patrick, I would say he is in his 20’s, He is a black conservative with a powerful message to whites and blacks.
There are tow videos that you should watch. Probably more, but I have not had time to look at others.
He started out as a young teen raising money for conservative local candidate. Appears that this is now a job doing personal appearances. This link is a message to white people. I will share the ones to blacks as a reply to this since multiple links takes messages to the big black WordPress hole in the sky.
Jay and Roby need to see it also, but it appears they have left.
This ones is for Black Lives matter
What is necessary is to get past this nonsense that those with power can silence those they disagree with.
I find the current CHAZ ninsense in Seattle illuminating. In just a few days the anarchists have appointed a defacto emporer, created a police force, engaged in racial discrimination, built a wall, checked ID, levied taxes by force.
Ideas matter, This is not just about radical students on campuses. Modern education has slowly been cleansed of the history of ideas for decades. While this is at its worst in US elite universities, it is true into grade school.
The democrats are not capitulating to the demands of left mobs. They have not been educated to be able to know any better.
I had to memorize the declaration of independence in school. How many students today right or left have even read it ?
If something as basic as the Declaration of independence in ignored, why would one expect that those educated in the past 40 years would know Locke, Paine, Smith, Mill, Thoroeux ?
The Magna Carte ? Voltaire ?
But I would bet they have all had atleast surface exposure to Marx, and none of them are familiar with the failures of Stalin, Mao, ….
History is not about facts and dates, it is about ideas.
The american constructs of freedom of speech and freedom of religion came from centuries of religious persecution and war in Europe. It was not just those on the mayflower who came here to avoid religious persecution, it was catholics, and moravians, and dutch.
Those Joel Patrick videos were very good, Ron. I hope that YouTube lets them stay up.
And I agree, Dave, that CHAZ is a petri dish of what happens when you let radical Marxists take control. It may be funny to see how incapable they are of creating anything productive, but the point is that they don’t care about basic rights, or of making sure that the people in their “autonomous zone” are provided with basic necessities, such as food and water…they care about destroying buildings, destroying businesses, destroying the social order, and destroying any notion that personal freedom is a good thing. In a world ruled by BLM and Antifa, freedom to think for oneself is a dangerous thing, punishable by force. Not funny.
What bugs me most is the idea that these people are doing this to honor the memory of George Floyd. In reality, the radical left has hijacked the protests over Floyd’s treatment at the hands of a bad cop, and turned them into riots designed to cause chaos and destruction.
Meanwhile, the clueless Queen Nancy and her Democrat minions, think that they can blame this all on Trump and win an election. Apparently, nominating a candidate who can actually put forth some good ideas and inspire people to vote for him/her is too much to ask for. They think that they can win in November , and then put the leftist genie back in the bottle.
It would be helpful for these folks to read up on Maximillian Robespierre and the Reign of Terror, during the French Revolution, when government massacres replaced law and justice. For Robspierre and his revolutionaries, killing those who opposed them was the best and most efficient way of establishing control.
Of course, the Reign of Terror eventually ended with Robespierre losing his head. Literally.
Well our governor Ding Dong is moving toward some more logical forms of orders that may lead to more business friendly outcomes. He has bitched and moaned about the sharp increases in cases, but has ignored the same science he says he is using to reopen N.C. when it comes to face mask. There is now discussions to make masks mandatory while in public because the science now says they reduce risk substantially, less than one infection from one positive individual. So like seat belts and motor cycle helmets, my libertarian side dislikes it, but my moderate compromise common sense side says that is the logical step to take to get N.C. reopened and reduce transmission.
God forbid the science was certain.
While I had seen claims that masks are useless for some time.
I tripped over a study that purportedly found that there was no reduction in transmission for people in a home with a C19 patient related to use of masks, and that in fact it appeared to make the spread worse.
To be clear, I am not pushing that study. There are as you note others.
But would be nice if with billions of people effected for months we could sort these things out.
BTW we have also found a cheap common steriod that appears to have a significant effect on mortality, severity and the permanent damage from a bad case if you survive.
But we are still dealing with dueling HCQ studies.
Dave, the science that Dr. Ohl, the epidemiologist from Wake Forest Healthcare, reported was not from studies where people were in contact with others in a home. Face masks are not 100% effective unless they are medical and even those are only 95% effective.
His science was based on one infected individual with a mask coming in contact with multiple people with masks and having short contact with those individuals. The spread of the virus in contained within a smaller space limiting the numbers infected, thus the one to one spread and not the 3-4 to one spread.
It has been proven the spread is by droplets and within a 6ft space for the most part. The face mask slows the droplets when talking, coughing or sneezing to much less than than 6ft. And if another wearing a mask walks through that area right after the infected person, wearing a mask can prevent the droplets from entering their nasal passage.
Nothing is perfect, but it beats 3 1/2 months of executive orders that have failed!
As for HCQ controvercy, Trump brought that on that drug himself. That would have gone through trials like others and quietly failed But his making a big deal out of it to try to himself look like “Superman the King of Know it All” just stepped all over that drug and his accomplishments like everything he does. It amazes me how one man can do so much good and screw up P.R. wise everything to make so many people despise him.
I do not personally believe masks are ineffective. But there are studies that claim that with data.
I do beleive at this point that we should have very good data on the effectiveness of masks and other PPE in a variety of circumstances.
My guess is that masks are of little value outdoors – because it is much harder to get infected outdoors. But that is a guess. And at this time I should not have to guess.
That is my point – we should be way past choosing which expert oppinion to follow and well into good data on what works what doesn’t and exactly how effective things are.
Dave, agree. But my point is right now we have a choice in many states. Freedom to go maskless, but many business still closed, many going into bankruptcy, or requiring masks with significant fines if you dont wear them and open all business.
What you and I bith want is never going to happen, so we need to accept a compromise.
Any state that has allowed protests, is likely facing court challenges and will near certainly be forced to completely re-open.
The argument made for allowing protests:
Completely violated the first amendment requirement that government may neither censor nor advantage a viewpoint.
Completely destroyed the credibility of the “experts”.
Completely wiped out the claim that the rules were neutral.
The SCOTUS case that was wrongly decided, tried to claim that allowing big stores to open at less stringent rules than churches was somehow OK because big box stores were not places of assembly. Well protests ARE.
If you or I personally wish to decide not to go out, to wear a mask, to socially distance – we are free to do so. It is highly likely that I will.
But no one – not even the governor should be allowed to decide what risks others take for themselves.
Dave, your argument concerning govt determining what risks one takes on for themselves has been argued for years with forced use of seat belts or cycle helmets. So the precedent was set years ago.
As for SCOTUS, as long as Roberts finds a 4-4 vote, he will make damn sure the ruling will be the least controversial to protect his courts reputation, all while damning the constitution in many of the decision. He has shown with the church decision and PPACA mandate the constitution means little to him.
He is a cancer within SCOTUS.
Dave, your argument concerning govt determining what risks one takes on for themselves has been argued for years with forced use of seat belts or cycle helmets. So the precedent was set years ago.
Its not an argument.
It is not moral to use force to make choices for another person when those choices do not harm another.
And we have had the discussion about the moral use of force before.
The fact that we have allowed government to act immorally for centuries, the fact that most people support that, does not alter the fact that it is immoral.
I would further note that once you decide that government can constrain a persons choice – “for their own good” – there is nothing that government is barred from doing.
There is no situation in which someone in government can not credibly argue that they can make a better choice than a person makes for themselves.
Dave, “I would further note that once you decide that government can constrain a persons choice – “for their own good” – there is nothing that government is barred from doing.
There is no situation in which someone in government can not credibly argue that they can make a better choice than a person makes for themselves”
OK one more time. It was already decided. What can’t you understand that requiring the use of face masks in public to protect you and others from illness is no different than requiring requiring you to use seat belts on.public property!
“OK one more time. It was already decided. What can’t you understand that requiring the use of face masks in public to protect you and others from illness is no different than requiring requiring you to use seat belts”
I agree, another improper violation of rights and another demonstration that there is no limit to what government can make you do.
Second try.I would also point out that you constantly use “harm to others” as a basis for laws. If I am driving recklessly and get in an accident, not wearing a seat belt and die, I harm no one other than myself.
However, if I go out in public with the virus, coughing, sneezing and spreading germs without a mask, then I am causing harm to others that come in contact with these germs and get sick because face mask do not protect the wearer as much as they protect others. A face mask reduces considerably the distance and number of droplets spread when talking, coughing or sneezing.
But returning to my first comment I made on this. Everyday our governor gets on T.V. with an update of some kind. He comments about the large increases in new daily cases, he comments about the spread and bitches about people not wearing a mask. He fails to understand those that are going to wear a mask voluntarily are doing so and others will not unless there is a significant fine. So either pass a regulation making the mandatory or shut up because bitching and moaning do no good. And those not wearing a mask not only risk spreading the virus, they are the ones creating the environment that forms the decisions by the governor to keep restuarants, gyms, bowling alleys and large gatherings closed or severely restricted in numbers.
“However, if I go out in public with the virus”
Quarantines are legal.
As are mask requirements for people who are infected and go out in public.
But they would be TORTS – you get to sue those who infected you.
It is arguable that you can quarantine or require masks on people who were exposed but not yet showing symptoms.
But you can not impose restrictions on people who are not a risk to others.
Dave “But they would be TORTS – you get to sue those who infected you.”
Are you really this stupid? The f’in laws are there to protect you from dieing. What f’in good does TORTS do me if I am 6 ft under because Joe Smartass refused to wear a mask, was positive and we came in contact in the Kroger store? And think about this, to use your remedy, you have to know who infected you. In a pandemic, how is Dave going to find the person to sue?
I understand why you argue there is nothing called ” common sense”. Its because I dont think you have any.
“Are you really this stupid? The f’in laws are there to protect you from dieing. What f’in good does TORTS do me if I am 6 ft under because Joe Smartass refused to wear a mask, was positive and we came in contact in the Kroger store? And think about this, to use your remedy, you have to know who infected you. In a pandemic, how is Dave going to find the person to sue?”
Why do you think a priori works better ?
We are burning the country down at this moment because massives of people are burning with anger at precisely the kinds of laws you talk about being enforce a priori by men with guns.
Do not get me wrong – there is a legitimate place for those laws and that type of law enforcement. But it is narrow. ‘
You say that you have no recourse after you are dead.
Well what recourse does the person shot or choked by a cop have because you decided they could not be un masked in public ?
You say you are entitled to be protected from the POSSIBILTY that he might infect you and that you might die.
What is the non-mask wearers right to protection from death or other harm from the enforcement of your law ?
Why do you have the right to demand everyone must be masked ?
Is EVERYONE infected ?
Those who actually are infected violate your actual rights.
Those who are not – do not, and your use of force against them is IMMORAL.
We all watched as Eric Garner died for selling loose cigarettes.
Many of us were thinkful when Bloombergs bug sugary drinks idiocy died.
You still do not seem to grasp that whatever law you pass is ultimately enforce by men with guns. And that the consequences of that will be people using their property their freedom and their lives.
In your mask wearing regime – if someone is arrested – are the released without prosecution if they do not test positive for C19 ?
If not – then your law is not about your protection – it is about forcing others to make you FEEL safer.
You want to piss over torts. The great advantages of a tort.
There are no police involved until the case is proven.
You must be actually harmed to file a tort claim.
You must establish that the person you are going after caused that harm.
You must do each of these BEFORE you can use force to take anothers property, liberty or life.
AS to what do you do if you are dead ?
You do nothing.
But if the recklessness of one person leads to the death of another – that is a crime.
Criminally negligent homocide.
We prosecute drunk drivers criminally for harming others all the time.
You seem to beleive you have a right to a perfectly safe world.
You don’t.
Fundimentally most aspects of your safety are your responsibility.
You think it is “common sense” to restrict the liberty of everyone, because of the small chance of harm to yourself ?
I guess we should ban driving – as people die from it.
Dave “I guess we should ban driving – as people die from it.”
No using your logic we should not have speed limits because not everyone is going to get in an accident going 100 mph because some people will not have the inability to control a car at that speed. We dont know who will or will not cause an accident, so no one should be inconvenienced by restricting speed.
“No using your logic we should not have speed limits because not everyone is going to get in an accident going 100 mph because some people will not have the inability to control a car at that speed. We dont know who will or will not cause an accident, so no one should be inconvenienced by restricting speed.”
So ?
We could also get government out of the road business entirely.
Regardless, the fact is that govenrment does build and maintain roads – whether I like it or not.
It is not however in control of the entirety of our lives.
I want government in control of only what is absolutely necescary.
But we have F’d that up, I think we can all agree on that.
Your argument is that because Government has F’d up someplaces, it can do so everywhere.
You say that masks are the same as speed limits ?
I do not have a big problem with no speed limits – people would still be responsible for the harm they caused. Insurance companies would decide that they will not insure you if you do not allow them to monitor your speed and raise your rates if you travel at a rate THEY consider excessive.
Further Insurance companies would be in a better position to do what government can not.
To determine that some people are just not safe – even at lowe speeds while others are highly skilled and can safely travel faster than the rest of us.
I do not know that would happen – nor do I much care – what would happen is what people wanted.
I am not opposed to masks – I am opposed to forced masks – or forced most anything.
People can be held accountable for what they have done.
Not what they MIGHT do.
I would note that roads actually have design criteria. They are designed for safe travel at specific speeds, usually those are much higher than we allow.
Our speed limits essentially dictate that everyone must travel at speeds that even the worst drivers can usually manage safely.
The consequence of this is that most drivers violate the law. Some more than others, but nearly everyone drives at or slightly above the speed limit.
This undermines the rule of law. We do not want laws that even a minority of people are willing to disobey. Disobeying one law erodes respect for all laws.
I have said before – I think prosecutorial discretion is lawless.
If a police officer pulls you over for violating the law – he is obligated to ticket you.
No letting you off with a warning.
If enforcement of the law as it is pisses either enough people off or powerful enough people off – then that law should not exist.
The same is true of prosecutors.
For this reason I do not support plea bargains.
But our system would fail without plea bargains.
Fine LET IT. Figure out how to change the law such that if can be rigorously enforced all the time. If you can not do that – then that law should not exist.
We are essentially slowly growing a totalitarian state – that is not actually totalitarian, because police and prosecutors do not enforce the laws. But if they did we would be as totalitarian as any state that has even existed.
That is not merely wrong, it is evil.
It also means that we have empowered government to CHOOSE who to punish.
We do not punish based on the law – most everyone is a law breaker.
We have given the government the power to punish whoever offends them.
It does not matter if that is police officers screwing poor people,
Or Trump going after Biden, Or Obama going after Trump.
We do not want anyone to be able to pick which law breakers to go after.
I would rather he bitch constantly that that he push some new regulations.
SCOTUS just recently decided two sex discrimination cases.
Gorsuch wrote the oppinion and it is an absolute disaster.
It turns textualism/originalism on its head and quite literally says that “living constitution” theory and textualism are the same thing.
I am extremely disappointed.
Gorsuch made the very common error of judges,
he confused the right outcome with the right decision.
Given that you accept that government can restrict private descrimination – which I do not,
Congress pass law that defined specific forms of descrimination that were illegal.
One of that was discrimination on the basis of sex.
Sex at the time (and it still should today) mean male and female.
The law most definitely did not mean orientation or gender.
Gorsuch essentially argued that even though for the authors sex meant male and female
that today sex covers sexual orientation and any possible gender.
That is precisely what non-textualist/originalists have argued forever.
That whatever the words in the constitution meant when they were written that we interpret them by their meaning today.
This completely unmoors the constution and law – its meaning changes based on the whim of judges.
Legislators change laws when they do not like the way they were originally written.
Judges do not.
Assuming that the legislature can bar employment discrimination at all – which itself was a bad decision, then legislature can bar discrimination based on orientation, or chosen gender.
While I would have found all laws on employment descrimination unconstitutional.
If it is constitutional to bar descrimination based on sex, then it is constitutional to bar discrimination for any reason.
I do not beleive employers should discriminate based on orientation, or based on chosen gender.
But if we must have laws – congress must make those laws NOT the courts.
Mire examples of a whole class of regulations that inevitably lead to fraud and abuse.
https://reason.com/2020/06/17/business-licensing-makes-it-too-easy-for-politicians-to-punish-people-they-dont-like/
I find this hillarious. Twitter is making a farce of itself.
Aparently Twitter thinks that SM users are too stupid to recognize a meme as a meme, satire as satire.
I think the Trump video is great – and Twitter tagging it as “manipulated media” is a reflection of the complete lack of self awareness of the twitterati.
Of course it is manipulated – that is the point.
It is a beautiful demonstration of the fact that the media by failing to provide context completely changes the meaning – that it lies.
Dave, SM has recognized what I have told you for years and you fail to understand. They see voters being so stupid they believe the crap they allow on their sites, so now they are censoring stuff that might change a moderate liberals vote. Someday you might come to the same conclusion, especially after Biden creams Trump in the upcoming election and win super majorities in the house and senate at the same time
This is a reflection of what is wrong today.
This is the poverty we are supposed to be fighting ?
“These [Democrat politicians] saying Black Lives Matter, who the hell are you to say that? You’re not even black.
“Democrats don’t give a s–t about anybody. Hillary Clinton doesn’t give a s–t; she’s trying not to get locked up.
“Trump is much better than Clinton and Obama. … The only one to do what he said he would do is Donald Trump.”
~Muhammed Ali jr.
https://nypost.com/2020/06/20/muhammad-alis-son-says-he-wouldve-hated-black-lives-matters/
BLM is a Marxist organization, and it’s currently more popular by double digits than either the Republican or the Democrat Parties. We are really screwed.
It amazes me that there are so many black voices like this one and Alveta King, MLK’s niece, the Hodge Twins and Joel Patrick that are hardly ever heard from except interviews on Fox. There is no one voice like MLK to lead an organized, nonviolent national movement where everyone’s voice is on one issue. They end up with leaders like Colin Kaeperneck that still allows Nike and other T-shirt companies to sell Colin Kaeperneck-Fidel Castro T-shirts for $20.00 with the inscription “like Minds Think Alike” And he is demonstrating about human rights in America. Just shows how educated his followers are.
If they had one national leader that set an agenda and scheduled peaceful demonstrations at the same time met with state and local leaders, thing like the police union in Minneapolis running the circus may get fixed.right now I think we will end up just like rodney King and everyone since.
It is wrong to conflate everything that is going on on the left.
The “deep state” conspiracy against Trump – served democrats, progressives, other groups.
But fundimentally it was made of a center left (or atleast not even close to progressive) groups within government seeking to protect their own power.
They are democrat and left friendly maybe even mostly democrat. But they are not really strongly ideological. Their hatred for Trump is rooted in his threat to their power.
The media and big tech are currently owned by progressives. Even when they are unfamiliar with the post modern cultural marxist underpinnings of modern progressivism they are still heavily influenced by them.
Antifa is fundimentally an anarchist group. It borrows from modern progressism, but it is less ideolgical than it appears. It is mostly about breaking things and causing chaos
BLM is not fundimentally ideological. Absolutely there are marxists in it. BLM is very very weak on ideas and ideology.
While I have made buckets about – there is blurring between these and even some other left factions.
Fundimentally the left is doomed. They will eat their own. They do it all the time.
Most of the people that you are hearing fired, canceled, whatever are already on the left.
We are seeing left mayors being owned by leftists groups.
Absolutely assorted protestors/rioters attacked Trump at the whitehouse.
There was a significant power struggle going on at the whitehouse.
But Trump is not even close to the only target. You have to be completely not paying attention not to grasp being a democrat right now is no protection from the mob.
This has never been about symbols of ‘racism;’ its about destroying a culture and subduing an entire population with threats of violence, destruction and even death for those who don’t allow it to happen – The Democrats are trying to postpone their time in the crosshairs, thinking that they might be able to co-opt this movement. The Republicans are also staying quiet, hoping that the insurgency, which is currently relatively small, will burn itself out.
I think that they’re both wrong.
This is a year old but still pretty amazing.
joe rogan dismantles a NYT Journo
Rubin on Race
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