The War on White Statues
First they came for the Confederate generals, but that was OK because they fought against the Union for the preservation of slavery
Next they came for Christopher Columbus, and that was sort of OK, I guess, because despite having opened up the Western Hemisphere to European settlement, he was less than kind to the indigenous peoples. (And we all know what happened to them after that.)
Then they came for George Washington, which wasn’t OK, because despite having owned slaves (are we shocked that a man born into the hereditary 18th-century Southern planter class used slave labor?) he secured our independence against overwhelming odds, presided over the framing of the Constitution, served admirably as our first president, and voluntarily renounced power after two terms. He also came to detest slavery, refused to buy and sell slaves or break up families, and freed all his slaves in his will – an act of rare compassion for a Southern gentleman of his time. Not good enough? Let’s move on, then…
Finally they came for Ulysses S. Grant, and that was a damnable insult to the man who defeated the Confederacy and indirectly liberated all slaves from bondage. What was their excuse? Grant owned a grand total of one slave during his lifetime – a gift from his Southern father-in-law. And he freed that solitary slave within a year. Despite being hard up for cash at the time, Grant refused to sell him or exploit his free labor. Later, as president, he enforced Reconstruction, enabled blacks to gain positions of power in the South, and fought against the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. Still not pure enough for the neo-Bolsheviks who toppled his statue? To hell with them, then.
Other statues victimized by salivating mobs include California mission founder Father Junipero Serra, Revolutionary War hero Casimir Pulaski, Francis Scott Key, and Boston’s magnificent monument to Col. Robert Gould Shaw and the all-black 54th Massachusetts Regiment, immortalized in the movie Glory. (Did they object to a white officer leading soldiers of color while sitting on horseback? Did they stop to think that Shaw, just 25 at the time, died along with his men? Or that they died fighting the Confederacy? Maybe that’s why they only spray-painted it with graffiti instead of tearing it down.)
Meanwhile, New York’s world-famous American Museum of Natural History is set to remove its heroic outdoor statue of Theodore Roosevelt on horseback, flanked by an African and a Native American. All three figures are sculpted with dignity, so what’s the offense? TR is seated above his nonwhite companions, a sure indicator of white supremacy, paternalism, colonialism, and your choice of any other -ism you can throw at white males. The museum affirmed its commitment to honor Teddy in other ways, but the statue is about to make its exit.
Oh, and now biracial activist Shaun King calls for the removal of all sculptures and stained-glass windows depicting a “European” Jesus. (I guess the Pieta has to go.) Proclaims King: “They are a form of white supremacy. Always have been.” (News: As a Jew, Jesus was certifiably Caucasian, even if he didn’t look Dutch or Norwegian. We have no contemporary descriptions of his appearance, but my educated guess – based on northern Egyptian tomb portraits from his era – is that he could have passed for a Greek or Italian.)
What do the offending statues have in common? Not all of them depicted slave owners or overt racists. It couldn’t be that all the images were of prominent white males, could it? I’m certainly no white supremacist (in fact, many of today’s leftists would argue that I’m not even white), but my majestic Armenian nose can detect the odor of escalating anti-white sentiment in the air, and it’s starting to stink. I only hope that the extremism of the left-wing iconoclasts doesn’t trigger an equal and opposite reaction from gun-toting right-wing white mobs.
Oddly enough, it seems that most of the damage is being perpetrated by young white social justice warriors. How to explain the peculiar brand of racial self-hatred percolating among these statue-topplers and so many other young white leftists? Have they absorbed the not-so-subtle anti-white messaging from BLM activists, biased news sources and collegiate “grievance studies” professors? Have they swallowed the distorted media narrative that black people are chronically victimized by white people? (Strange, isn’t it, that we never hear about the white victims of police killings or black assaults, which actually outnumber white-on-black crimes.) Have they been driven to self-loathing by the purported race-baiting of Trump and his unruly base? Do they exempt themselves from the sins of their less enlightened white peers – or do they wallow in collective guilt? Are they simply sensitive souls who want to protect their nonwhite friends from potentially hurtful images? If so, their zeal for destruction doesn’t strike me as especially sensitive.
Something tells me that they’re at least subtly pressured to rage against their own people for fear of falling outside the zone of Acceptable Thought on Race. Besides, it’s hip to be “woke.” So they march, rant, and topple the statues of good men along with the bad.
Extremists on the left have bent over backward to justify the assault on American history. A seismic shift in the racial power balance is long overdue, they say. (Fair enough, but does that mean whites have to take a subordinate role?) Some on the fringes even suggest that whites should cede control of the government to blacks for a generation or more. So much for representative democracy.
A couple of friends chastised me on Facebook for my anger over toppled “hunks of bronze.” (The Liberty Bell is just a hunk of bronze, too, and I dare anyone to topple that.) The symbolism is undeniable: black activists and “woke” whites seem intent on “dismantling whiteness” – a popular topic on campuses today. Out go the pale-faced imperialists, exploiters and racists – but what about the likes of Shakespeare, Bach, Plato and Rembrandt? Where does it stop?
I was relieved to hear at least a few moderating voices. The generally inflammatory Max Boot opined that great men like Washington and especially the progressive-thinking Grant should never be discarded along with the Confederate generals.
Ken Burns, a staunch liberal whose classic Civil War documentary series on PBS paid homage to both sides, regretted giving respect to the Confederate cause but insisted that we shouldn’t go overboard by tearing down the statues of men whose greatness outweighed their flaws.
A panel discussion on left-leaning CNN concluded that the excesses of the moment would eventually correct themselves and find a proper balance.
Balance is almost always a good thing. We should acknowledge that black people have been victimized throughout much of our history, and that they still suffer from ugly vestiges of racism today, without demonizing white people and branding all of American history as an endless chronicle of oppression.
Much like the companies whose obsequious pro-BLM public service announcements saturated the media after George Floyd’s death, well-meaning white progressives have a tendency to grovel before black activists and their demands. Defund the police? We’re on it! Create separate black dorms and spaces on college campuses? Done! Capitalize Black but keep white in lower-case? Of course – it’s more just! Dear white people: just shut up and listen! Why, certainly – we have no right to an opinion.
Instead of fetishizing black people and granting them a blank check for every demand, “woke” whites should ask themselves whether their attitude is more patronizing than genuinely respectful. In an ideal world, the aim of black progress would be full equality, not special treatment based on skin color. And the conversation on race would be a two-way street – a conversation between equals.
Tearing down statues – like the looting of commercial districts – simply drives a deeper wedge between the left and the right – between most blacks and most whites – without generating a scintilla of positive change. If the iconoclasts’ goal is to vent anger and provoke it in others, they’re succeeding handsomely. If they want a revolution, we’ll all have to live with the consequences: chaos, bloodshed, ever-shifting loyalties and, eventually, a totalitarian regime that tolerates no dissent.
Instead, how about pressing for a quiet revolution in police training and criminal justice – along with government and private investment in depressed black communities, a revival of the inner-city black family, and the development of teaching methods that keep black students from dropping out of school? That’s the kind of revolution that sticks – the kind of revolution even a raving moderate can support.
Rick Bayan is founder-editor of The New Moderate. His three collections of darkly humorous essays are available in e-book form for $2.99 each on Amazon. (Just search under “Rick Bayan.”)
THE NEW MODERATE 
Rick, excellent as always. If the black community had a strong, but soft voice, leading them, then I think a lot of progress could be made. One leader, with groups in each state following a script to work directly through churches, community groups and others with local government. All working from the same script as was followed by those led by MLK. Right now there is no leader. Just a rag tag group of demonstrators with some wanting change mixed in with some wanting violence.
Tearing down history, especially bad history, is not progress. Understanding history so it is not repeated is progress. Just as eliminating Aunt Jemima pancake mix is not progress, understanding Nancy Green, her life and how her life formed the product and how she was used to promote the product is progress.
https://www.npr.org/local/309/2020/06/19/880918717/the-fight-to-commemorate-nancy-green-the-woman-who-played-the-original-aunt-jemima
This is not a black revolution. This is a progressive revolution.
The goal has nothing to do with race.
Even the demands to “abolish the police” – these are not serious requests for change or reform.
This is about burning everything to the ground and starting over.
Statues are destroyed to destroy history – the past was irredeemably vile and must be obliterated – our hero’s did not have clay feet, they were truly blackhearted villians.
There police do not need reform. They need abolition. There are no good police.
That is the message.
Nor is this just a message about police.
The goal is radical transformation of society – into what ? Does not matter. Purportedly 10,000 years of civilization are shit
Burn it down
start over.
Dave: Good point. Once “woke” white people joined the assault on U.S. history, it became more of a leftist political uprising than strictly a racial one.
I think this is all fairly complex.
I do not beleive that “woke” whites are “joining” this. I think they are to a significant extent driving it – and I am not specifically talking about Antifa.
It is important to note this is a very young adult thing.
I think a part of what is going on is an almost organized pushback to the inroads that Trump and republicans are making with minorities.
Republican gains – even small ones among minorities are an existential threat to the left.
Trump traded neo-cons for blue collar workers in 2016.
I do not think democrats are getting them back.
But Republicans have been trying to sell minorities on things like school choice for decades.
There is some evidence that republicans are starting to make progress.
I think alot of what we are seeing right now is the fracturing of the democratic party.
I know that everyone is trying to focus this on Trump, but the democratic party is politically unstable right now in a way that the GOP never has been, and it has gotten worse under Trump.
Thanks, Ron. What’s sad is that even pioneering black figures can be “canceled” if their image doesn’t please modern “woke” sensibilities. I’m betting they’d call out Bill Robinson as an Uncle Tom for portraying a kindhearted house slave and dancing with Shirley Temple.
Very well written, thank you!
You’re welcome — I appreciate the appreciation!
What everyone is thinking but no one is saying!
Good to hear — thanks!
I really don’t care, do u?
Thanks for your input, Melania. 😉
In 2015, one of the co-founders of Black Lives Matter, Patrisse Cullors, told a group of community organizers that she and Alicia Garza, another co-founder of BLM were “trained Marxists:”
“We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk,”
Cullors’ mentor, Eric Mann, is a former Weather Underground leader, whose organization, the Labor/Community Strategy Center, focuses on “Black and Latino communities with deep historical ties to the long history of anti-colonial, anti-imperialist, pro-communist resistance to the US empire,”
https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/
In any case, Marxists are primarily interested in burning down, both literally and figuratively, everything about American society, as founded. They have long professed their preference for race wars, as the best way to destroy the US. Race wars, yes…civil rights, not so much.
They don’t care what statues they tear down. They want them all down. It has nothing to do with George Floyd, civil rights, police brutality, or any of the rest. That’s not to say that some of the young teen and twentysomething protestors aren’t genuinely there for those reasons, but they’re just ignorant, brainwashed pawns, being used by truly violent, far left, anti-American organizations.
The fundamental problem is not that BLM is marxist.
It is that it is crypto-marxist.
Lets have an ideological discussion.
But that is not the goal.
I’ve heard that the BLM founders are Marxists, Priscilla. Yes, creating division and strife based on racial antagonism is a sure way to undermine the U.S. and provoke revolution. Race has always been our Achilles’ Heel. What our college professors started, BLM intends to finish.
If you think this is about whiteness – you are wrong.
This much like Mao’s culture revolution, as well as the destruction by the Taliban and ISIS,
This is about destroying history.
This is ideological violence.
This is the physical manifestation of the 1619 project. It is harder to rewrite history when there are physical symbols that we revered our past.
This is as Anti-MAGA as you can get.
This is saying that you can not make america great again – it never was great before.
That the entirety of the west was never great, that the enlightenment was not great.
That the past is entirely repugnant and that there is nothing there worth learning from.
It is also an attempt to hide the past.
If you do not look back at western history, then you do not compare it to anything else.
If the american revolution is evil – then the french revolution does not look so bad.
The rioters, the looters, the mobs in the street, may be doing little more than wilding. They may have little idea about the war of ideas that they are part of.
But this is not about statutes. It is about history and it is about ideas.
The clash of ideas is between western enlightenment classical liberalism, and Neo-Marxist nihilist post modernism.
Well said, Dave. Yes, obviously the statue-toppling isn’t just about statues. I emphasized anti-white antagonism; you emphasize anti-West antagonism. The way I see it, they’re pretty much two sides of the same coin. And yes, the radicals’ history-erasing tactics are comparable to those used by ISIS, the Taliban, and, for that matter, all revolutions that have toppled the old order and replaced it with something even more oppressive. (Our own American Revolution was an exception, but I see it as more of a war for independence than a typical class-based political upheaval.
I do not beleive that race is nearly as important in what is going on than is portrayed.
Do not get me wrong – there are alot of angry black people.
But look at these protests and compare them to the lockdown protests.
Aside from the fact that armed people protested in capitals completely peacefully.
There is also a huge age difference.
The current protests are massively disproportionately young adults.
WE have educated them badly.
I think the comparison to the cultural revolution is especially apt. Mao basically unleashed the young to destroy and wreak havoc on the older adults.
Like the cultural revolution there was ideology in play. But also like the cultural revolution large numbers of participants who did not give a crap about ideology were used by those few who did.
Priscilla is right about the marxist core of BLM. But the majority of protestors do not know that and do not care.
But I do think there is one thing different from the cultural revolution.
This is America. I am deeply suspicious this ends radically differently.
I know that many polls have Biden with a growing lead.
And we keep having primaries where moderate Dems are getting their ass kicked by progressives.
But the special election results are running counter to these.
CA25 had a double digit swing to the GOP.
Just a few days ago a republican beat a democrat in a NY congressional special election by something near 30pts. That was a district the GOP lost in 2018, and only won narrowly in 2016.
Rassmussen has Trump’s approval at 2pts above Obama in 2012.
I do not think the polls and the press are reading the mood of the people correctly.
And if the anarchy does not peter out soon the backlash is going to grow.
The press is fixating on a Covid Spike. But crime is also spiking – 358% in NYC.
Anarchy and chaos drive people to strong leaders.
Whatever you think of Trump – Biden is NOT a strong leader.
I am also very concerned about the political polarization.
The left has gone way too far. They have coopted the democratic party – which is owned by the left.
Bernie may not have won the nomination, But democrats are bending knee to their far left flank.
This does not end well.
Dave, you keep living in your dream world that Trump will get reelected. I have said for months, well before Covid, that Biden would win.
Why? Because Trump is a bully, an asshole and an overbearing, egotistical Yankee from New York that is the epitome of the New Yorkers that many dislike.
So we now enter our second election with absolutely terrible candidates. Clinton was the bitch that reminded many of their school teacher from hell no one could stand. If you were an independent, you chose Trump because he was less offensive from a personal standpoint.
Now we have Joe Biden, everyones grandpa. He is the lovable bumbling old man that many can relate to because they remember their gramps. So the ones that saw a bitchy school teacher now see their gramps running and gramps is much more acceptable than the overbearing bully from New York.
He may not win a landslide victory, but he will change enough votes in N.C., PA, WS, and maybe FL to win outright the popular vote and the electoral vote.
We can only hope this does not translate to a 60 vote senate. I doubt prince Shumer will go full nuclear as he has seen the results of the partial simple majority on judges. They need to be careful because a supportive change today can bite your butt big in the future.
Ron
This is not my dream world.
I am offering an opinion.
I am aware that it runs counter the national polls.
I am also offering my evidence as well as my sense of the what follows.
I may be wrong.
But there remain alot of conflicting indicators.
1). Polls: polls showing Biden taking a stronger lead are all registered voters, not likely voters. that is normal at this time, but is skews the results in favor of democrats.
Most if not all of the recent polls have had large methodological/demographic errors. Democrats were overrepresented in the sample and republicans were under represented – to very large degrees.
Polls in swing states are showing a bump for Biden recently but much smaller. Further the current swing state polls have Biden doing worse than they had Clinton doing on election day.
2). Actual elections. Every special election I am aware of where a democrat and a republican have faced off for a federal office has skewed 10-20 points in favor of the republican. Including one in New York a few days ago. These are all seats that were republican seats in the past, but were lost to democrats in 2018. At the same time in democratic primaries we have a tend where progressives are beating moderate democrats. Whether democrats win or lose the house the senate or the whitehouse we are still going to see the most progressive democratic makeup of candidates ever and most of those are in districts that are already owned by democrats.
3). Biden has lost law enforcement. And he has lost them in a big way. Trump is not merely likely to get a majority of law enforcement votes – but probably a supermajority.
These are people who vote. Further Trump is getting the votes of their families and many of their friends. Next these are mostly suburban voters – the police do not live typically live in the communities they serve. Beyond law enforcement is other first responders, prison guards and security people throughout the country. Trump may have picked up as many as 2M votes. It is probably that Trump has lost about as many votes – but those votes are primarily among minorities and urban voters in places he was going to lose no matter what.
4). C19; The effect of C19 through the election is at this point not truly known. There could well be a “2nd wave” in the fall. The current resurgence could continue for a long time.
But the opposite is also possible, and I think the evidence suggests it is probable.
If the recent spoke in Red states is not of lasting significance, if it is the result of testing, or almost entirely among young people, and if it fizzles quickly, C19 is not merely going to die as an election issue, but over time Trump will be viewed as the C19 hero, not as the goat.
That does not have to be the truth. it is just how perception works.
5) The economy, every economic signal so far indicates a much stronger than predicted recovery. Trump could easily be going into November leading a roaring economy.
I would further note that the economic impact of C19 has been as much as 3 times harder on blue states than red. The 10 lowest unemployement states right now are all at 5% and are all red. They have not had a large increase from C19. 9 of the 10 highest states are blue and they are all 15%. Swing states are also a big deal. Most of those have democratic governors, and were strongly negatively impacted.
Regardless, a rising economy is backed in at the momemt. There is very little that can stop that. A big question is how quickly unemployment will come down for low skilled minorities. These are almost always the last to get rehired. That is going to be a very big deal for the 2020 election. I do not think that minority unemployment will recover nearly as quickly. If the perception of better days ahead does not get to the minority communtiy Biden is likely to see Obama numbers of minority voters. But if minorities have a sense that THEIR futures will be better in November Trump could get more minority votes than any republican in decades.
I think the later is unlikely, but possible.
6). Crime. Crime is spiking. That is likely to continue through the election. The morale of the police have been negatively impacted. Even if there “blue flu” is not a significant factor, just the moral decline will result in increased crime. Further the police are highly likely to be “gun shy” – less aggressive – crime is already up and will likely stay up through the election. Trump has set himself up as the law and order candidate. Biden had fought for decades for a law an order mantel. He has squandered it. If people become concerned about rising crime as the election approaches – how are the going to vote ? It is not automatic that Trump gets the votes from those who are concerned about crime. He is the incumbent. Incumbents are usually blamed for bad things whether they are responsible or not.
Regardless, this is likely to be a huge issue for those suburban soccer moms who are a very important demographic.
7) Chaos. The continued lawlessness of our major cities is going to impact the election. The Left has gone to a great deal of trouble to hide the rioting. the right has gone to alot of trouble to make it look worse than it is. But the most significant issue is that it is ongoing.
Finally. This election is likely to be a wave election.
The national polls are suggesting a blue wave. That this is not just going to elect Biden but flip the senate and grow democratic majorities in the house.
But there is plenty of evidence at the level of congressional districts that this is going to be a red wave.
Further, what we see right now is NOT what we will have in November. How we feel right now is not likely to be how we feel in November.
But i think it is highly likely that in November voters are going to be angry and blame somebody. I think if you are sure you know who they are going to blame in November right now, you are smoking crack.
I provided some of my analysis.
I am only certain of two things: This election is going to be a wave election. It is not going to be a squeeker.
Progressives are going to make massive gains inside the democratic party regardless.
Ron,
What do you think the “issues” will be in 2020 ?
Of those issues, do you expect them to change as the election approachs ?
I would also note that it has taken impeachment, a pandemic, an economic recession, and race riots to get Biden ahead of Trump.
My view is this is like Sisyphus pushing the rock up the hill only to have it roll down again.
C19 will fade, and Trump will get credit.
Even Cuomo, Wolf, and Whitmer who handled C19 horribly are getting kudos for their handling of C19.
The economy will recover – and Trump will get the credit.
Jobs will return – and trump will get the credit.
Durham indictments are coming – I expect these to be damning, but I do not expect them to effect the election. Though I would note that more bad news for Biden both on XFH and on Burisma has come out recently – but no one is likely to care.
I do not think the destruction of monuments is playing well for the left.
CHAZ is not playing well for the left.
We are getting BLM fatigue.
I do not see democrats winning the police reform issue – Trump/republican are reasonable. Democrats are not. It is not about the details of their plans, it is that democrats can not distance themselfs from BLM and defund the police.
Chaos is going to be an issue. Trump’s chaotic nature has hurt him
but do you think the recent chaos will be attached to him or to democrats ?
Further Chaos always drives voters to strong men. Biden is just NOT a strong man.
You do not call grandpa in the midst of race riots and crime.
There is purportedly some turmoil in the GOP about Trump’s campaign.
Some of the criticism I think is good. But most is not.
Attacking Biden right now is fruitless.
Trump could weep for George Floyd in the center of times square – the press will not cover it.
A major factor in Trump’s campaign strategy is that he MUST campaign in a way that the press will cover him. It is the only way he can get media attention.
I have noted before Trump has made more than twice the statements of dismay about Floyd – those do not get covered by the press.
If you want Trump to behave different – you have to also tell us how that he can get public credit for doing so.
It is very instructive to look at the difference between successful and unsuccessful oppressive revolutions.
I have made those comparisons here before. Regardless we should all be contemplating that – because this is a revolution, and I am not at all sure when it will be over and how it will end.
We have a serious problem with a large portion of young adults that is not likely to get fixed easily. They have been badly educated and deprived of the critical thinking skills necescary to get through this without violence.
I would further note that anarchy and chaos are always followed by strong powerful tyranical leaders. Sometimes left more often right.
Post modernism is a cultural marxism with the typical marxist class framework replaced by oppression groups.
“Balance is almost always a good thing. ”
Yes, we should destroy half as many statues ?
Sorry Rick,
Vandalism and destruction are always a bad thing.
There is no balance here.
Some in the media have compared this to the American revolution – and there is some real merit in that comparison. Our founders claimed to be pushed to violent rebellion by the infringements on their liberties by a distant king. they rebelled demanding self governance.
The Boston Tea Party did not end in compromise or balance, it ended in War and the birth of a new country. A country with a self image radically different from any country before. A self made country reveling individualism and liberty.
Those rioting are demanding a revolution too. They seek to create a new world. That is laudable – if that world is a truly better place to be. This is about the destruction and birth of ideas – not statues.
No one is seeking balance. Balance is neither possible nor desirable.
Many things at the moment appear incredibly Orwellian.
I would ask that you consider that is not an accident.
We are being pushed toward a new Orwellian dystopia. We can go willingly or we will be forced to.
There is no option of compromise. There is no balance contemplated.
Come on, Dave… you might be taking your role as resident contrarian a little too seriously. Of course I don’t approve of toppling half the statues. By “balance,” I mean acknowledging areas where blacks still deal with racism — without vandalizing statues, trashing white people or erasing Western civilization.
Rick,
I am directly attacking the premise of the middle way.
You, this blog, many here, constantly try to sell balance, compromise, the middle as a principle.
It is not, it is a tool. Often a useful one.
But whatever the question the answer is no more likely to be in the middle than in either extreme.
Quite often the correct “answer” is either that of the right, or the left, or some other extreme.
It is not “the middle”.
My “moderate” is more choosing the right when they are correct, and the left when they are, and not spliting the baby all the time.
Separately, while race remains an issue in this country.
I do not beleive that racism is causing major problems in this country.
I can list problems with police.
I doubt anyone here thinks I am a huge fan of police.
But I am not accepting this “systemic racism” nonsense.
We have problems – there not going to be solved by fixating on race.
That will end badly.
That plays right into the hands of the “cultural marxists”
And if we keep heading down that road will will get left or right authoritarianism for real.
Not the fake news trump kind.
Beautiful analysis, Rick. Yes, it is primarily woke up whites that are doing most of the damage. I view that as a result of the general weakening of society as it becomes more affluent. We no longer have to face the day to day struggles that a less affluent society must face and there exists an absence of feeling. Hence, we create it through such as actions as described above. With regards to Columbus, I do not see how we can judge the morality of a person who lived approximately 550 years ago. The whole of society was brutal. Middle-aged women were burned at the stake as witches. Polictical opponents were assasinated. In the Ottoman Empre a poorly functioning government employee was executed. People were burned at the stake for reading the bible or having different religious views. These were brutal times and we cannot judge a man by the current day morality. But we can appreciate that he showed extraordinarly courage in setting out on an unknown sea.
Thanks, Savannah. I have some misgivings about writing that it was “sort of OK” for the revolutionaries to erase Columbus as a hero. His achievement was stupendous, after all. He did live in cruel times, but even his contemporaries criticized his excessive cruelty toward the natives. We know that Columbus returned to the island of Hispaniola on his second voyage to find that his entire garrison at La Navidad had been wiped out. I’d have to do some more research to discover whether he mistreated the natives only after the massacre… or whether his mistreatment of them might have caused the massacre.
Columbus was traveling to the new world near the start of the Spanish inquisition.
The treatment of Jews in Spain was no better than native Americans.
Further though I do not know about Caribbean islanders, the central Americans and south americans engaged in human sacrifice, and slavery was common accross the world at that time.
We can say Columbus;s treatment of natives was horrendous, but everyone’s treatment of everyone was horrendous, We are only a few centuries from Genghis Khan brutalizing eastern Europe. We are at the beginnings of the protestant reformation a time when the people in the city next door might massacre you because your beliefs were different.
The united states was not the first place in the world to end slavery. But it was fairly close,
Slaves were not common in Europe, but they were in European colonies.
And legal slavery continued in some parts of the world until late in the 20th century, and still continues illegally.
It is a huge mistake to pretend that Europeans were somehow more immoral at any time than peoples throughout the world at the same time. We did not displace “native americans” because we were uniquely war mongers. But because we were more advanced and therefore more successful at doing so.
I said long ago and many times that if anyone believes that trumps populist movement and its way of combating PC (PC is what “Woke” means) are going to make PC less prevalent and less aggressive they are delusional. Rush and then trump have only made it much worse in the long run. Trump has continued what his good buddy Rush Limbaugh started.
I hate PC, I think you know that. Dr. Seuss and Mark Twain were racists? Good grief. The further one goes to the left the more they tend to see racism in nearly every person and every event. Dr. Seuss, who wrote the Sneetchs, a children parable about racism has to be called a racist. And the further to the right one is the less they tend to acknowledge racism in any person or event. On the right even Rush Limbaugh, (with his Obama the “Magic Negro” birtherism and a career of similar racial attacks) is not racist in the eyes of many conservatives. Rush is a ^&*%$# racist! There is no shade of grey, simply he is a loud proud inspiration to American racists.
So, Rush gets a Medal of Freedom at the State of the Union from Trump and now surprise, the populist revolution has backfired and its scaring people who believe that its hard, hard, hard to be white in America, while also believing that if it were not for the MSM fanning the fires of statistically insignificant event blacks and other minorities who be happy with the racist situation. Oh, the Proud Boys have a lot of sympathizers, even some here.
Well, ironically, Obama’s terms made many people less sympathetic with the things blacks citizens deal with and Trump’s term in office has reversed that, he has made many people much more aware of the things that black citizens endure.
So Rick, a few questions:
1.) What percentage of people do you think have pulled down a statue in the recent protests? Is it 0.00001 or 0.0000001 of Americans?
2.) What percentage of Americans have listened in warm approval to Rush Limbaugh and his undisguised racism?
3.) What percentage of people do you think approved of Trump giving Rush America’s highest civilian honor?
4.) What do you believe the ratio is between the people in (1) and the people in (2) and (3)?
In Russia, a large number of people still have Stalin on a pedestal, it’s the patriotic thing to do in a country where it is a damn good idea to be a superpatriot. In China, it is considered unpatriotic to even mention Tien Mien square. Even American Chinese people are reluctant to admit it happened. In Japan, the rape of Nan King, the abduction of Korean girls to be comfort girls for soldiers, those things have not been much apologized for or much admitted to. Japan is not given to shame over its past.
I am glad to live in a country where a large number of people confront the ugly events of our past. Its much healthier, although it seems crazy to many Russians and Chinese that we behave this way.
When the statues of Lenin and Stalin came down is a popular we have had enough uprising did you mourn the damage to history? Personally, I was cheering.
“I said long ago and many times that if anyone believes that trumps populist movement and its way of combating PC (PC is what “Woke” means) are going to make PC less prevalent and less aggressive they are delusional. Rush and then trump have only made it much worse in the long run. Trump has continued what his good buddy Rush Limbaugh started.”
Yes, if you fight left wing loons it is your fault if they do not wither and die.
Sorry, Robby, your full of it.
Whether you like Rush or Trump or …. you do not get to blame the idiocy of the left on others.
Everyone is responsible for their own words, and their own actions – left, right ….
If you are shoveling this $h!t that someone else’s words and actions make the PC left worse – you are part of the problem
I would further note that almost none of these “children” have a clue who Rush is.
And all of them were broken before Trump.
These snowflakes were made by our schools and colleges, and now they are young adults and they are behaving exactly as they were taught.
“Whether you like Rush or Trump or …. you do not get to blame the idiocy of the left on others.
Everyone is responsible for their own words, and their own actions – left, right ….”
Says the man who has stated 2037 times here over the last four years that the previous actions of the left are to blame for trump.
Give me a break.
trump Was a consequence of PC and other excesseses of the left, you have actually been correct about that. And BLM and the protests are a consequence of trump and American racial issues that he and Rush and others have inflamed profitably. The set of one phenomenon being a consequence of another phenomenon stretches back a ways, but it ends at American slavery, that is the beginning of the chain of poison. Slavery was a consequence of greed and evil and the worst parts of human nature. The original American sin.
Roby, And when Biden is elected, nothing will get better because the left is moving further left and the right is moving further right in many cases. The divide is going to continue to get worse. Moderates will not exist except for a couple.I fear that Shumer will take the senate full nuclear with just a simple majority needed for all votes. That also will further divide the country because the minority and moderates in the country will have no voice. Venezuela had a constitution that required a super majority and Hugo Chavez knew the only way he could get complete control was to change their constitution to a simple majority. He was able to get that done and that set them on the path to a dictatorship because he only needed his followers to vote things in. A dictatorship in America is highly unlikely, but a president with a simple majority, leaving so many without a voice, would do nothing to improve our current situation and would divide us even further..
And Biden is going to be Queen Nancy’s and Prince Shumer puppet. The will pull his stings like an accomplished marionettist.
“the right is moving further right”
They are ? examples ?
Gay marraige ?
“The divide is going to continue to get worse.”
Yes, because the left WANTS us divided. The ideology of modern progressiveness is quite littlerally about amplifying divisions.
“Says the man who has stated 2037 times here over the last four years that the previous actions of the left are to blame for trump.”
Most accurately I have claimed that Trump is the inevitable reaction to your misconduct.
What do you expect when you call everyone you disagree with a racist, sexist, homophobe, hateful, hating hater ?
Well, what you should expect is that someone is going to come along who allows your insults to roll off their backs, and fires their own moral hand grenades at you.
What you should expect is that if lobbing moral hand grenades works for you – then it will work for those you disagree with.
What you should expect is that the people that you have been calling hateful hating haters will deify the person who comes along and puts you in your place.
You broke it. Much of what you think is wrong with Trump is probably true. It is also projection. Look in the mirror, he is you.
“BLM and the protests are a consequence of trump”
Nope, BLM is just a different form of the grenade lobbing intolerance that brought Trump about.
Your argument does not even work Chronologically – BLM started in 2013 – during Obama’s presidency. The first BLM race riots – during Obama’s presidency.
“American racial issues that he and Rush and others have inflamed profitably.”
So Ofc. Chauvin killed Floyd because Trump or Limbaugh made them do it ?
You are aware that the number of blacks killed by the police has been DECLINING steadly since the late 80’s ?
in 2019 there were 9 unarmed blacks killed by white police officers. Of those 4 of the police officers were prosecuted.
“The set of one phenomenon being a consequence of another phenomenon stretches back a ways, but it ends at American slavery, that is the beginning of the chain of poison. Slavery was a consequence of greed and evil and the worst parts of human nature. The original American sin.”
This is a stupid argument, it will work forever. It is not repairable.
Regardless, it is not surprising that Blacks in blue cities feel racially oppressed.
Because you treat them as inferior.
I beleive that just like the Irish and Germans and Jews that Blacks are capable of succeeding today. And guess what – blacks who come to the US from africa seem to do fine.
Aparently having been enslaved 200 years ago changes your genes.
You are the ones who beleive that blacks are inferior, that they are incapable of succeeding on their own. That the need coddled.
It should not be surprising that blacks in deep blue cities are doing poorly – you expect them to.
I would further note that blacks that finish high school, do not do drugs, do not commit crimes. Do not have children before they marry, and do not form families until they can support them do exactly as well as whites who make the same choices.
Further Whites who do not finish high school, do drugs, commit crimes, have children before them marry and form families before they can support them fail just like minorities making the same choices.
The vast majority of whites in this country – arrived after slavery. more than 50% of the whites in this country in 1862 were in the north and did not own slaves. Probably little more than 20% of whites in the south owned slaves.
My personal genealogy is Irish, Irish, German, and Jewish. None of my ancestors had anything to do with slavery. The Irish were treated little better than slaves when they arrived in this country. and little better than slaves in Ireland through to the 20th century. My German ancestors fled from religious persecution in Europe – where many of them were killed for their beliefs. And no ethnicity has been treated as shitty for millennia as Jews.
Dave, individuals that are not moderate righties to far right or Libertarian can not envision a society that reacts to liberal policies in such a way to result in a Trump presidency.
They can not believe that;
1) Forced purchase by government of a private product that everyone has to buy through the PPACA legislation,
2) unfair trade policies that promoted industries moving to China to the point of national security issues as well as costing jobs
3) climate agreements giving China free reign until 2050 to do whatever they wanted with industrial pollution, but put unfair control on USA output costs billions and jobs,
4) environmental regulations impacting many negatively like farmers whose land collects water in the wet periods and dries out in the growing season through regulations stating that is wet lands all while the farmer still has taxes on the property,
5) Idiotic minimum wages demands where one size fits all, except for $15.00 an hour in NYC is poverty while in Mississippi $15.00 buys goes much further
6) free this, free that costing billions, such as college.
7) Open borders with state and federal benefits for those entering illegally.
8) Gun Control
And there are many more, but when any of those listed above impacted a person personally, it changed their mind about who was on their side. The left can not envision that the right felt as alienated by Obama as they feel Trump is dividing the country today. That is what happens when most people stay in their tribes and hear the same information daily. How wonderful everything was when B.O, was in office and how hateful and divisive everyone is now that Trump is in office.
All of these issues further divided the country. Today, people can not debate an issue, they are more like Obama when he told John McCain “John the election is over, I am president” when discussing healthcare a a joint meeting with congressional leaders when McCain suggested an item for reform, one of the last the GOP ever held with Obama. Each of these issues today brings arguments not debate. Individuals attracted to each other romantically are repelled when they find their political positions are at odds because moderation and discussion does not exist. Mixed political marriages are becoming less common that mixed racial marriages.
And how this turns out no one can predict. But my guess is it gets much worse before it gets better and that is over 10+ years.
Robby, and others have refused to debate issues on the merits, instead lobbing defamatory hand grenades as if they are arguments.
You and I do not agree on many of the issues, including some you have listed.
You are far more if a Trump conservative than I am – yet Robby thinks I am the right wing nut ?
Why ? Because I challenge his alunskyite BS, because I will not let him get away with lobbing unsupported allegations of immorality as his sole means of argument.
The most heinous thing Trump does is defame people.
But he is pretty tepid in comparison to the media, the left, democrats, Robby.
We have discussed whether there is anyway our political divide can be bridged.
We will remain bitterly divided so long as those on the left substitute cries of racism, sexism, homophobia for meaningful argument.
Your worried about a crushing Biden victory – and I could be wrong.
But I am expecting a crushing defeat for the left.
When NYT pulled Cotten’s editorial recomending that Trump invoke the insurection act – a large majority of the country supported doing that.
Tucker Carlson is bitterly attacking Republicans – even Trump for fiddling while rome burns.
I already argued that Biden has just sacrified nearly the entire first responded and policing and security vote – and along with their families this is a huge number of votes – most in the regions Trump needs to win.
New guns sales are up 48% from last year. and the increases is first time buyers, and 40% of those are women.
Someone who is out buying a gun right now – is voting in November, and they are not voting for Biden.
Yep, I support much if Trumps agenda, but there is much I dont. I think cows will fly before Trump or conservatives will ever support Medicare buy in at any rate for anyone. And supporting any climate agreement would choke the remainder.
Do you think that most of these rioters know who mark twain is ?
They are clearly clueless about most of the statues they are tearing down – I mean lincoln for christ’s sakes ?
Do you think Trump or Rush wound them up to burn Washington or to pull down the statues of several abolitionists ?
I would also suggest you watch the video’s Few if any of those tearing down statues are black. The worst problems we are seeing are from young white usually male woke snowflakes.
https://www.wbur.org/artery/2020/06/03/16-statues-memorials-damaged
Are the proud boys out there beating people up ? Looting ? Burning ? Tearing things down ?
The MSM is searching high and low for white supremecists and so far zip, nada, zilch.
Maybe some guy who wanted to kill cops.
There are BLM and AntiFa graffeti all over. Is that Patriot Prayer trying to false flag antifa ?
Are there secret members of the KKK who have infiltrated CHAZ that are committing all the rapes and murders ?
Are there race issues in this country ? Absolutely. But even during impeachment Blacks did not list racism as in the top 10 of problems they faced.
You want to deal with racism ? Fine, come up with something.
But teaching our kids that this nation is ireedemably racist to the core, ain’t going to fly.
Trying to obliterate history isn’t going to either.
I am currently watching Robert Gates series on roots. It is excellent.
But Gates and the guests keep saying that so much of our past racism is some deep dark secret that is only recently getting exposed.
Did you not know about the KKK ? Jim Crow ? that many slave owners impregnated female slaves sometimes raping them ? That rapes of black women by white men continued even to the 50’s ? maybe our snowflakes did not get this part of their education by cultural marxists, but in the 60’s and 70’s I was taught all of that and more. And I still walked away with the understanding that for all its mistakes this country it unique in the world.
“1.) What percentage of people do you think have pulled down a statue in the recent protests? Is it 0.00001 or 0.0000001 of Americans?”
Does it matter ? Why is nothing being done ?
Lawlessness breeds lawlessness. Is it OK to destroy things that are not yours ?
If not, why aren’t you speaking up ?
“2.) What percentage of Americans have listened in warm approval to Rush Limbaugh and his undisguised racism?”
0% – before you get anywhere on this you need to prove “undisguised racism”.
“3.) What percentage of people do you think approved of Trump giving Rush America’s highest civilian honor?”
I am told Pearl Bailey is a horrid racist – she got the PMF too. Go look at the list.
There are all kinds of people that someone thinks has a troubled past.
Barack Obama got the nobel peace prize – that offends the hell out of me.
“4.) What do you believe the ratio is between the people in (1) and the people in (2) and (3)?”
Who cares?
We have lots of problems in this country – Race is among them. LOW among them.
You are old enough to remember the 60’s That was 10 times as racist as today.
My parents were raised in the 30’s that was 10 times as racist as the 60’s.
in 2019 9 unarmed blacks were killed by the police. Of these in 4 instances the police ended up getting prosecuted. of the remaining 5 in most instances the unarmed black person attacked the officer and was trying to take their weapon.
You want to reform the police – fine, I am with you.
But you want to sell this NONSENSE that the police or the country is systemically racist, you are full of $h!t.
You want to pretend there is the slightest justification for the nonsense going on – your full of it.
How many statues has Rush pulled down ? How many people has he killed ? How many buildings has he Burned ?
I am not a Limbaugh fan – but I am not interested in these stupid excuses.
Would you allow your children to trash their rooms – because Tommy down the street said mean things ?
There is no connection between the things you are trying to connect.
People are responsible for their own actions.
Trump Rush and anyone else can be critical of those selling PC bunk – so long as they are selling PC bunk. Those selling PC bunk are responsible for their own words and actions.
And I have zero interest in idiotic claims that they will just go away if we ignore them.
Sure, after they have burned everything down.
Racism is not a differential equation or geometry. There is no proof. You know that. Nor is there some bright line, there is a continuum. Magic negro among many of Rush provocations, is far inside the clear racist part of the Venn Diagram. But not to you. Fine, that is who you are. Your denial of the obvious racism of Rush Limbaugh, well denial is what you do, no surprise there. History will remember him for who he was and trump for who he was and all the so whaters and enablers for who they were. You are on the wrong side of history.
“Racism is not a differential equation or geometry. There is no proof.”
BS if you are unable to find some means of defining it and measuring it – it does not exist.
Your argument is ludicrously stupid. Why don’t I just call you a racist, sexist homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic bigot and a hateful hating hater ?
If it can not be “proven” – then my claim that you are all those things are njo more or less correct that the same claims against David Duke.
Regardless, When you accuse another person of immorality the burden of proof is on you.
If as you claim the accusation you are leveling is unprovable – then do not make it. PERIOD.
If you are lobbing immorality grenades at other people you are OBLIGATED to prove your claims.
When you do not the moral failure, the loss of integrity is YOURS.
“You know that.”
No I do not. The only legitimate defense when you slander another person is Truth, and the burden of proof is on you.
“Nor is there some bright line, there is a continuum.”
Changes nothing.
“Magic negro among many of Rush provocations, is far inside the clear racist part of the Venn Diagram.”
Then you can prove it.
“But not to you.”
To me racism, sexism, …. are charges that you do not level at anyone else unless you can back them up.
I am not specifically looking to defend Rush Limbaugh. I am specifically attacking you for slander.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you have strong evidence for the moral accusations you are making. But I doubt it. My guess is that like all on the left, you presume everyone not on the left is racist, sexist, … and you are not.
#metoo shattered on part of that illusion.
Right now I do not see people rioting and looting and tearing down statutes is deep red america.
We are not dealing with Bull Conner in Montgomery. We are dealing with a problem in the most progressive domains in the country.
“Your denial of the obvious racism of Rush Limbaugh”
If it is obvious you will be able to prove it easily. But you told me above that racism is not provable – therefore it is not obvious. Or is it self proving ? Accuse someone and therefore they are ?
“History will remember him for who he was and trump for who he was”
I do not know about history.
What I do know is that people who slander others and can not establish the truth of their slander have no integrity. Are not moral.
“You are on the wrong side of history.”
You are on the wrong side of morality.
A large part of what is wrong right now.
A large part, maybe the most important part of why this nation is bitterly divided,
is because you and so many like you believe it is OK to call others racist, homophobe, sexist, hateful, hating, hater, just because you do not agree politically.
That is vile, and the unbridgeable divisions in this country are cause by you and those like you.
So Lincoln and Washington and several abolitionists are the same as Stalin and Lenin ?
Did Stalin and Lenin create a country actually trying to adhere to principles such as these
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,”
Neither Rush, nor Trump are anywhere in site in this article.
This is the left F#$king itself over.
Roby: I was about to settle down to respond to your comment when I saw that Dave already reeled off half a dozen comments in succession. I skimmed them, and he makes some valid points about the destructiveness of the leftist mob, but since I came here to reply to you, let me reply to you…
Yes, those radicals tearing down the statues are a minuscule percentage of the population, but if you add the leftists who believe that the destruction is “fitting and proper” (and they include a number of my friends, both black and white — especially white), we’re looking at the core of a radical movement comparable to the Bolsheviks — although not nearly as well organized.
As for Rush Limbaugh… while I tend to see him as a blustering radio entertainer who’s fun to listen to on occasion because he says things we’ll never hear on CNN, I know that his “dittoheads” take him seriously. He inflames white racism, no doubt, but he’s not exactly a KKK grand wizard. Those whites are angry because the conversation on race is totally dominated by the PC left today, with its constant finger-pointing at white people as the cause of all misery since they arrived on these shores. That’s why the statues are toppling, and it makes me angry, too. Today’s whites aren’t collectively responsible for slavery, Jim Crow or police brutality. Nobody but a masochist is going to sympathize with people who tear them down at every opportunity.
You made an astute observation about the back-and-forth extremist BS that causes backlashes on each side of the divide. It has a great deal to do with why we’re so polarized today, and there isn’t much we can do to fix it as long as most Americans are living in ideological bubbles. I’ve been trying to do my part here, but, alas, hardly anyone in a position of power has noticed.
“As for Rush Limbaugh… while I tend to see him as a blustering radio entertainer who’s fun to listen to on occasion because he says things we’ll never hear on CNN, I know that his “dittoheads” take him seriously. He inflames white racism, no doubt, but he’s not exactly a KKK grand wizard.”
Rush is fun to listen to? The biggest difference between Rush and KKK grand wizard is that he has gotten rich inflaming racism. There is profit in them thar racists. He is not an entertainer, not a comedian, he is not monty python. He is an actual political and ideological figure and on impetus behind the a good part of the conservative universe. He is an ideological force and an evil one. You lost me at “fun to listen to”.
“Those whites are angry because the conversation on race is totally dominated by the PC left today, with its constant finger-pointing at white people as the cause of all misery since they arrived on these shores.”
???!! You are making excuses for evil. The conversation on race has many more strong inputs than the PC left, including noxious loud voices on the right. Some of those carry out the conversation by gunning down the members of black churches. You are so obsessed (like Dave) with the PC left that that is nearly all you hear.
You and I inhabit for different universes on race.
“The biggest difference between Rush and KKK grand wizard is that he has gotten rich inflaming racism.”
Again this is something you can prove ? or you are just slandering others for the hell of it.
You do understand that if you slander someone else and you can not prove it – that it is your integrity that is lost.
“There is profit in them thar racists.”
I beleive he has 30M listeners.
So you are saying that there are 30M racists out there ?
“He is not an entertainer, not a comedian, he is not monty python. He is an actual political and ideological figure and on impetus behind the a good part of the conservative universe.”
Possibly true – so what ?
“He is an ideological force and an evil one.”
If you are going to claim he is evil – then you are obligated to prove it.
Further you have connected ideological and evil – which does not surprise me.
They are the same for you.
Anyone disagreeing with you is evil
And again that is why the country is bitterly divided – people like you.
“You lost me at “fun to listen to”.”
Have no idea, do not care. Do not listen to him.
Maybe you are right about him. But I expect you to prove it when you call someone a racist.
If you can not – then do not make such allegations.
If you call someone a racist, and you can not prove it – it is you that is evil.
“???!! You are making excuses for evil.”
Again – you are accusing the right of being evil. You are obligated to prove it.
“The conversation on race has many more strong inputs than the PC left, including noxious loud voices on the right.”
It does ? I do not hear the right running arround accusing people of racism.
When the right talks about race at all. They want things to be race blind.
That does not sound very racist to me.
“Some of those carry out the conversation by gunning down the members of black churches.”
“You are so obsessed (like Dave) with the PC left that that is nearly all you hear.”
Because it is the left that actively seeks to divide the country.
I’m aware of the dangers of right-wing extremism, believe me. I guess I weigh left-wing extremism more heavily because it’s become almost mainstream now, and virtually obligatory on college campuses and among the enlightened elite. By contrast, I think of right-wing extremism as the gut reaction of uneducated whites. There’s a more insidious element among them — the college-educated white supremacists — that I should weigh as heavily. But they’re still out on the fringes, whereas it’s almost mandatory now to shun figures like Columbus and even Thomas Jefferson. My old elementary school, Woodrow Wilson School, is going to be renamed because Wilson was something of a racist. (Big surprise that a Virginian born before the Civil War would be a racist.) These purity tests are being imposed strictly by the left, and it’s their opinion alone that seems to matter.
“I’m aware of the dangers of right-wing extremism,”
In the past – maybe. Today the MacCarthyites are on the left.
If the future – who knows ?
I would note that even historically right totalitarianism results in far less bloodshed than left.
“I guess I weigh left-wing extremism more heavily because it’s become almost mainstream now, and virtually obligatory on college campuses and among the enlightened elite.”
At the extreme it is cultural marxism. Closer to the center it is socialism.
These are the bloodiest ideologies ever.
“By contrast, I think of right-wing extremism as the gut reaction of uneducated whites.”
Please explain ? What is it that you think is right wing extremism ?
“There’s a more insidious element among them — the college-educated white supremacists”
Example ?
BTW why are white supremists “right wing extremists” – most white supremecists are socialists.
“My old elementary school, Woodrow Wilson School, is going to be renamed because Wilson was something of a racist.”
No he was a huge racist. He was also a democrat and a progressive, and a huge fan of big government.
Anarchy is not acceptable – because only a few anarchists are out there.
Nor is the destruction of statues the core problem. You correctly connect some of your liberal friends, but the fact is that in many ways the entire democratic party is complicit.
They are not merely standing silent – they are actually afraid to confront this.
In fact way too much of the country right and left is afraid.
If you criticize those fomenting anarchy – you will be labeled a racist.
Which segues me to your Limbaugh critique. Maybe Rush Limbaugh is uniquely racist. I do not know. But I doubt YOU do either.
And the “problem of the statutes” is not that there is so much racism in the country. It is that the accusation of racism has been weaponized so as to destroy rational discussion.
As I said before much of the country is terrified right now of being called racist for criticizing those engaged in anarchy.
That is a far more serious problem than whatever small latent racism remains in this country.
The only people able to call out what are essentially a form of terrorists, are those with thick enough skin that they do not care about being called racist – people like Trump and Limbaugh.
If you think Limbaugh is racist – make your case – I will listen. But I am very tired of weaponizing PC insults like racist, sexist, homophobic, hateful hating hater without evidence or based on political differences.
I do not agree with Trump’s immigration policies. I agree even less with those of democrats.
But they are not “racist” – and to the small extent them might be – Trump prefers brown people from India, to brown people from central america. The US has about 1M legal immigrants per year. about 4,000 of them are white.
If you are claiming political differences are bigotry – you are avoiding making the argument for your political choices.
It has been repeated ad nauseaum at the moment, but the screams of systemic racism are coming from cities and states that are democratic, that have had democrat governments for 50 years at least, the majority of which have black mayors, and black city counsels, and black police chiefs. Often they have disproportionate numbers of minorities among their police forces.
If this country is systemically racist, there is no escaping that the worst racial problems exist in the political domains controlled by the left.
Just as we discovered with the #metoo movement – the left is not immune, if anything the problems of racism are worse on the left.
I do not know if Rush Limbaugh is racist. But I do not believe you do either. I think that you are assuming that about both him and his “ditto heads” without actual evidence – because you believe that those on the far(ish) right are automatically racist, sexist, homophobic.
So how does this play out as it continues ?
Interesting perspective. And when you have California and Texas both with significant increases in cases, political actions have little control on peoples actions. Remove politics and see if people move closer together in everything.
https://www.journalnow.com/z-no-digital/thomas-boswell-the-price-of-selfishness-america-cant-act-like-a-team-and-it-might/article_baeaf59f-7382-5034-8000-3a7a03eb0fd0.html
Sorry Rick, you sound a lot like Dave, without his over the top closed minded obsessiveness.
The site is mostly just a right wing gripe session. Regressive. That includes you. Talking with you and Priscilla and Dave is pushing me left. Talking with you guys is making me realize how strongly I do not want to be in your group. I want future events to go against regressive values. The right wing morality that most on this site defend (while reacting in disgust and terror to any attempt to improve the actually existing deep injustices in America), well, it makes me ill.
After my conversation here yesterday I thought quite hard last night about the incredible paradox of the US. This is a country that had the lofty principles, the boldness and imagination, and the talent and courage to create a Declaration of Independence and Constitution full of lofty principles, a fairly small group of revolutionaries that changed and improved the world with the democracy they crafted. At the same time it is a country that developed its economy and its territory using the most immoral and horrendous tools, slavery, genocide, and then when we got strong enough, gunboat imperialism. These are horrendously ugly tools but they are also very effective. The most brutal and technologically advanced in war culture will triumph judging by history. We have been that in spades, while spouting our lofty principles. And the American experiment has turned out very well in many ways, its a paradox of huge proportions. There is much good in America despite the presence of great evil in our roots.
I don’t actually spend much time usually dwelling on the dark side of America. My life is a sort of near utopia that has been paid for by the American past. I am incredibly fortunate, I live in the light beautiful part of the American reality. Why should I spend my time dwelling on the cost in blood, cruelty, and utterly immorality that made a mockery of the fine words of the founders? (And it started with the founders themselves.) Actually thinking about this dark past and the darkness that still exists now is what the left does and the regressive right hates it and is terrified of it. But its actually very necessary because the cancer is still in us. We are not Russia, we are not China, we can freely discuss our ills. But, if we are the culture of trump and Limbaugh and the proud boys we do not deserve to thrive and continue. I don’t think we are as a whole trump and limbaugh, we are better than that and thank god.
You may include me, Rick, in the group who is “tearing things down” if that is how you see my desire to be honest about our faults and improve our still large moral weaknesses and injustices. Actually, I think that history is on the side of people like myself at the moment, change is in the works.
In my opinion, None of you here, with the exception of Ron, would have been part of overthrowing any of the original sin of the US. Not in the 1800s and not in the 1960s and not now. You would all have been satisfied with the status quo and viewed the overthrow of that order as chaos and destruction. You are a group of regressives. You would have seen the abolitionists as trouble makers and the Civil rights movement as a mob. You will no doubt strongly disagree, but I have read the words of each of you over many years and if I judge you by your words that is who this group is (again, Ron excepted).
If I had to choose between the path of the PC warriors and the path of people like you and Priscilla and Dave, who all in various degrees repeat the philosophy of the Proud boys, if not their tactics, I would grit my teeth and join the PC warriors.
Dave is a right wing crank in much of what he believes, although he does have his actual distinctions. But he is not a typical representative of anything, he represents no one but his own obsessive wiring and his programmed distorted certainty in his correctness. He is not one of the fundamental types who contribute to the American illness. On the other hand Priscilla represents the ideas of today’s GOP, trump and Limbaugh, White chauvinism. And you sound much like the two of them.
Ron believes in Libertarian and Conservative ideology and is as allergic to the left in any form as anyone here, (everyone but myself that is). But he also has a basic balance in his ability to see evil and bad actors regardless of party or ideology that makes him a good and rational person to talk with.
This site is not for me, (although I will admit it has made me think about my own rather careless acceptance of my own good fortune in the American system that came to me at birth.) I don’t fit TNM and it does not fit me. I wish I DID believe in progressive economics, they have their basic hearts and values in the right place in many ways but are naive and ignorant in many ways and could not run anything without breaking it. As well many of them are thoroughly obnoxious. The right on the other hand can run an economy and do practical things but taken as a group they all too often defend terrible and destructive values and perpetuate them.
I think that the future will favor some milder form of the left over the regressive elements of the right and that is happening at this moment. We will see.
With respect to this countries past.
Is it uniquely worse than other nations ?
Is it unique worse than other nations at the time ?
Is it something you were not taught about ?
Is it so great as to overwhelm the positives ?
Is there something that can be done about it ?
I dispute the significance of some of your analysis.
But the actual facts of the past are not in dispute.
And while we should not forget.
And we especially should not forget that all the evil in our past was driven by government.
We know what the left wants – they are pretty open about their demands.
But you bandy phrases like regressive right and that they are terrified of the past.
Why is the right regressive ?
Honestly Robby I think you are clueless outside your own bubble.
You say the right is terrified of the past – who is tearing down statues ?
What the US has done and continues to do to “native americans” is near genocide.
I would note that they are being destroyed today by the nanny state.
If you need an understanding of how government destroys hope, and oportunity and creates dependence and despair – look at modern government dealings with indians ?
How is what we do today not worse than the japanese internment ?
As to “US Imperialism”
Outside of this continent while were were less than perfect in places like the Philipines,
and you can read Mark Twains excoriations of american imperialism.
The US is not an never was an imperial power, and your gun boat diplomacy is mostly mythical.
We vanquished a weak and dying empire – Spain, on pretextual grounds, and temporarily held onto small parts of her empire after it collapsed.
At the time the US was figuring out what to do with Cuba and the Philipines,
Europe was carving up africa, and parts of asia.
Are you unable to grasp the differences ?
The left is not trying to be honest about out faults.
It is trying to leverage past faults repeatedly to destroy what they do not like, to Destroy what is good.
And in what world is tearing down history being honest about it ?
You have listed many bad things about US history – are they hidden secrets that you found only with the aide of BLM ?
Those in this country who are blind to the mistakes of our past, are those who are blind to everything.
What is “right wing morality” ?
What are the moral principles that are unique to the right ?
Morality is neither right nor left.
Wrong is wrong.
I doubt we disagree much regarding the immoral aspects of this countries past.
Where is it you think there is a moral divide in the country ?
“If I had to choose between the path of the PC warriors and the path of people like you and Priscilla and Dave, who all in various degrees repeat the philosophy of the Proud boys, if not their tactics, I would grit my teeth and join the PC warriors.”
Back to slander and defamation I see ?
I doubt you know $h!t about the philosophy of the Proud boys.
Regardless, the tactics you are seeing increasingly being used by the right today are those of Alinsky – the political Clausewitz of the left.
You do not like being on the receiving end of your own tactics.
And that is what I mean by “You created Trump”.
So long as the left – just as you have done right here, continues politics by defamation, they should expect that eventually those on the right would do the same.
Trump is nothing more than the left in a mirror.
And here you are once again engaged in slander and Priscilla and I are supposed to what ?
Kiss your ass and confess to being racist or whatever other crimes we have committed in your imagination ?
This is simple Robby, so long as you continue to use baseless slander as your means of arguing I am going to call you out on YOUR immorality.
“You may include me, Rick, in the group who is “tearing things down” if that is how you see my desire to be honest about our faults and improve our still large moral weaknesses and injustices. Actually, I think that history is on the side of people like myself at the moment, change is in the works.”
How well did that work in the french revolution ? For Lenin ? For Mao in the Cultural revolution ? For Pol Pot ? For the Taliban ?
Please name some instance ever where “tearing things down” has worked ?
History is not on your side.
I am hoping this is a Lockdown driven temper tantrum that will fade quickly.
Because there is no good alternative.
It does not matter whether chaos drives us left, or right, it always drives us to toltarainism.
“Dave is a right wing crank in much of what he believes”
How so ?
Robby, I think you are completely clueless about the right. You are like Obama with the delusion that the right is all extremists who have no values beyond guns and bibles.
But that is typical of the left.
“his programmed distorted certainty in his correctness.”
You are certain of your correctness you have zero problems defaming 3/4 of the country.
You do not bat an eye doing so.
You condemn Limbaugh, Priscilla, me, Proud Boys, and all our values and philosophy.
And yet you know nothing about any of us.
I have been crystal clear about my foundational principles – and yet after years – you do not know that they are.
I honestly do not know what yours are – because you never offer any principles.
But you are so much more certain that you are right than I, that you are OK with slandering people you know little or nothing about.
I doubt the “proud boys” are “good people” – but I am certain you have no idea what their philosophy is. Yet you have no problem calling much of the country moral excrement – without knowing a thing about them. Without knowing what you are talking about.
“He is not one of the fundamental types who contribute to the American illness. On the other hand Priscilla represents the ideas of today’s GOP, trump and Limbaugh, White chauvinism. And you sound much like the two of them.”
Lots of slander – but no substance.
How do I contribute to “The American Illness” – and what is that illness.
I do not accept that this country is systemically racist as an example.
But in rejecting that assertion – I am stating that I do not think YOU are systemically racist.
The riots the chaos the violence – and the policing that it is in response to are all in the bluest of the blue parts of this country.
It is not Limbaugh country that has all the police killings of unarmed blacks.
It is not in proud boys land that blacks are being stopped and frisked
it is not in libertarian that the looting and rioting are occurring.
If those “tearing things down” are right – their persecutors are not “the proud boys” or “limbaugh” or “right wing extremists” – they are YOU. They are the left.
If we have “institutional racism” it is not in Selma, or Montgomery. It is right in YOUR cities.
“I wish I DID believe in progressive economics, they have their basic hearts and values in the right place in many ways”
“You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?”
Matthew 7:16
You are unable to grasp this simple truth.
You defame people who if not grapes and figs are not thorns and thistles, and you celebrate those who are all thorns and thistles and claim “their hearts and values are in the right place”
BS.
Robby,
your problem is not with this site.
“Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.”
Leo Tolstoy
“I’m starting with the man in the mirror
I’m asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you wanna make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself and then make a change”
Michael Jackson.
Roby, it is not Rick or this site specifically. There have been many who come, comment and get overwhelmed by Daves excessive number of comments. One can come comment, get in a discussion and go silent, but then their email is overwhelmed. So they have a choice. Continue occasionally commenting or choosing to leave and not have to constantly clear messages. Those that leave are the moderates that want to comment and not get into ideological extended debates.
But make no misstake, I would vote for a moderate democrat over Trump in a heart beat. But has there been a moderate democrat since Bill Clinton? If Clinton, the 1990’s Clinton was running against Trump, he would get my vote!
What may be lost in my arguments is I support freedom and fairness. I support Medicare buy-in, at market rates, with PPACA subsidies used for MBI and commercial, just like Medicare and Medicare advantage. I support this only without any mandates! Compstition! I support getting rid of second class health insurance, Medicaid, using that money for MBI or commercial.
I support environmental and climate agreements that place EQUAL responsibility on all nations, not that crappy agreement in Paris giving China free reign until 2050.
I support a minimum wage, but based on an area wage index, meaning it may be $22.00 in San Francisco and $11.00 in Butte Montana, also with entry level exceptions for a lower requirement based on position and age ( ie summer jobs for teens!)
And I support Dreamer legislation, along with a complete rewrite of immigration, but including a change to birthright citizenship.
And I have other positions on other issues based on logic, freedom, fairness and government partnerships vs government ecicts.
If this is right wing ideology, I make no apologies.
I doubt Robby’s problem is the volume of my posts.
I would bet his problem is that I am calling him out for lobbing accusations of racism and other hate without backing them up.
I do not follow Limbaugh. Maybe Robby can make his claim that Limbaugh and his 30M regular listeners are racist white supremacists.
But I doubt it.
We get what Robby is doing all the time – and I am fed up with it.
The biggest problem facing our country right now is not “racism” – it is false accusations.
I share Robby’s wish to improve many things about our country.
But I am more likely to be able to have a reasoned debate on the facts and issues with Limbaugh or Alex Jones than with Robby.
Robby has no interest in the issues. He claims that I am afflicted with unjustified rigid beleif in my own correctness. Robby is so certain of his own correctness – he does not to argue, he can just jump to calling anyone who disagrees and racist.
And Robby is no different from the PC crowd he claims to dislike .
The bitterness and conflict will get worse until the left backs away from false moral accusations as the cheap means to get their way.
Dave, it is not Roby whom I address concerning volumes of post. It is those that have come, commented a few times, been bombarded with responses and left. That is their choice. They do not choose to have e-mails overrun their in-box and trying to follow anything on WordPress is a complete disaster. Whoever created that monster did not have discussions in mind when doing it.
So what we have is two regulars, one regular, but skips a few days, one that comes, discusses and is gone for a month-6 weeks and thats it, except for those that get Rick’s articles, they comment, but are not set up to get any responses. Jay has left so I do not expect to see him comment anytime soon.
I would like to see more random thinking on various issues, but in this day and age, that is impossible on the internet. Everyone migrates to where they are comfortable and can agree on everything without debating and supporting thoughts.
I am just bull headed enough and have always enjoyed a good debate (or argument as my mom called it), so I read what I want and just do a mass delete when I don’t.
“Dave, it is not Roby whom I address concerning volumes of post. It is those that have come, commented a few times, been bombarded with responses and left. ”
When Have I bombed a newcommer ?
“I would like to see more random thinking on various issues, but in this day and age, that is impossible on the internet. Everyone migrates to where they are comfortable and can agree on everything without debating and supporting thoughts.”
I would disgree. You can get disparate views on https://jonathanturley.org/
But again we see the left absent ideas and completely engaged in defamation.
There a few right wing trolls too.
But everywhere I go one thing is near universal.
The left almost never addresses issues, and almost always spews unsuported moral accusations.
I can find some on the right who do the same, but most on the right even though I often disagree with them are like you – capable of having an actual debate on the issues.
Often disagreement gets to the point where there is no where further to go – that happens between us often.
But it is still a debate on the issues.
There is little or no name calling, certainly none of this nonsense of calling everyone who disagrees a racist.
“What may be lost in my arguments is I support freedom and fairness.”
Mutually exclusive – pick one, you can not have both. Frankly fairness is unatainable and likely undesirable.
“I support Medicare buy-in, at market rates, with PPACA subsidies used for MBI and commercial, just like Medicare and Medicare advantage. I support this only without any mandates! Compstition! I support getting rid of second class health insurance, Medicaid, using that money for MBI or commercial.”
Mire government no matter how you do it will make things worse not better.
“I support environmental and climate agreements that place EQUAL responsibility on all nations, not that crappy agreement in Paris giving China free reign until 2050.”
Not governments business.
“I support a minimum wage”
The MW is “systemically racist” it precludes low skilled workers from getting their first job.
It is a price control, they never work.
Why are we talking about things we know are bad ideas ?
“And I support Dreamer legislation, along with a complete rewrite of immigration”
Fine
“but including a change to birthright citizenship.”
Absolutely not.
The elimination of birth right citizenship has created for Europe racial problems that are far worse than the US. Birth right citizenship confines all immigration conflicts to actual immigrants.
Nope Ron, that is moderate ideology and music to my ears. Thanks.
What’s weird. Roby, is that I am in agreement with the positions that Ron just outlined 95% of the time, yet you persist in labeling me as an alt-right racist nationalist, simply because I voted for a candidate that I, personally, believed held positions that would stop the increasingly rapid decline of our culture and economy.
I also believe that the current Democrat Party, has been almost thoroughly transformed by a leftist ideology (America is bad and racist at its core and needs to be remade, root and branch) and that the Republican Party has been weak and unwilling to protect the Constitution and/or the laws of the land, particularly if it would take some courage to do so.
Regretably, it has come to pass, that anyone who attempts to justify their vote (past or future) for a President who has pointed out that the U.S. is 1) not the source of evil in this world 2) does not need to be fundamentally transformed into a “democratic socialist” nation and 3) has, over the years, allowed the American republic to stray ever farther from its founding principles, is somehow a danger to that Republic,
Your condemnation of me has nothing to do with my beliefs, and everthing to do with how I vote. For years, you have come to this site, read my comments outlining my positions, some of which have evolved over time, and then conveniently ignored the fact that we agree on many basic issues, yet disagree on how best to keep the best elements of the American experiment alive.
The reason that this country is being torn apart has nothing to do with true moderates like Rick, or with thoughtful conservatives like me. Nor, frankly, does it have to do with honest liberals like you.
It has to do with the increasing tribal hatreds that have been leveraged, by America’s enemies, both foreign and domestic, for the pupose of destroying everything that has made the country great. And, lest you accuse me of pushing out a simplistic MAGA doctrine, for the purpose of defending Donald Trump, I remind you that I have long agreed with those who argue that the radicalization of our institutions ~ particularly education ~ would eventually pose the greatest threat to our democracy and to our way of life.
Trump may be a very imperfect man, but he represents what many believe is the last line of defense of the Constitution. Perhaps his patriotic views are too simplistic for you ~ I get that. Liberals (including me, when I was one) have long laughed at those rubes who believe in God and Country.
I think that there is always room, in any real democracy, for dissent and iconoclasm. In a functioning system, dissenting ideas promote needed change.
In a broken system, it promotes chaos and violence.
Priscilla
He beleives I am an alt-right racist and I Do NOT support many of these policies and did not vote for Trump.
The left does not use rationality.
As more information comes out Obama is rapidly heading towards the worst president ever.
He is now clearly involved in deliberately sabotaging his successor, and though not yet proven it is plausible to believe that he completely directed the effort.
He was TOLD that Flynn’s call was “legit” and that all allegations against Flynn had proved false – and he still directed the investigation to continue and that information not be shared with the incoming president and his team.
What people keep missing about the Flynn mess is that they HAD TO get rid of Fynn.
As NSA they were required to inform him of XFH/XFR and he was going to go ballistic and he was going to both investigate and clean house inside the intel community and expose the DOJ/FBI.
But for Robby Obama is still a saint, and Trump a demon.
We survived Obama. We will survive Trump, if we have to we will survive Biden.
Everyone is worried about extremist right violence – though so far their has been none.
The should be worried about non-extremist white violence.
When anarchy and chaos prevail people legitimately take control themselves.
Regardless, Robby like the entire left has no moral compass.
He has no means of determining what is right and wrong except his emotions.
That leads to bad and dangerous choices.
I have taken on Robby and other on moral grounds.
I am not happy about that.
I warned Robby about that long ago.
We all make mistakes on occasion about facts.
Making moral accusations about others is very different.
You can say someone is wrong without saying they are a liar, a racist, a homophobe, a sexist, a hateful, hating hater.
When you defame another – one of you is not moral.
If you do no more that lob accusations – the presumption is against you.
Worse, if you are proven wrong – then your are immoral.
I have defended individual rights all my life.
I have defended the right of the KKK and Nazi’s to march.
I have defended communists from MacCarthites,
I have defended burning the flag,
I have defended gay rights, and those of other minorities.
I am very angry as I watch people who I stood up for now persecuting others.
I will be happy to discuss the issues with anyone.
No one has been a stronger advocate of police reform here than I have – no one.
But reform is not abolish, nor is it demonize, villify, demoralize.
But the police are the line between order and chaos.
If they fail, they will be replaced by other “men with guns”.
How much does it matter whether those are from the extreme left or the extreme right ?
Priscilla, your opening comment made me wonder how could we get Rick to create and post a “survey” of critical issues that everyone that reads Ricks articles might respond to, not just those that follow comments.
I say that because Roby called me conservative, he has labeled you very conservative and then both you and him responded agreeing with my comment on where I stand on just a few critical issues.
Now Dave disagreed with all if them. But the fact remains that moderate lefties and moderate righties have much in common and can compromise resulting in good outcomes. Its just the extremes like Jay and Dave that drive the deep divisions.
And I base my thinking on good decisions because we have choices. For instance, we can keep PPACA, go full governmental or some form of a combination. We WILL NEVER go back to no government involvement that is Daves solution.
“Now Dave disagreed with all if them.”
All ?
I do not usually disagree with ALL of what you say.
I would further note that agreement and disagreement are relative.
I disagree with Trump and you on Trade and immigration.
But I can live with your positions easier than those of Obama or Clinton or Biden.
“But the fact remains that moderate lefties and moderate righties have much in common and can compromise resulting in good outcomes. Its just the extremes like Jay and Dave that drive the deep divisions.”
I disagree with your whole premise
There is a radical difference between my discussions with you and Priscilla and usually Rick, and those jay and robby.
We discuss issues – sometimes we insult each others arguments – but I have not called you a racist, hatefull, hating hater, and you have not similarly insulted me.
You have sometimes called my arguments stupid, and I have called yours idiotic.
But neither of us tends to read that as a personal insult.
Those on the left – and increasing even the supposed moderate left.
I doubt Robby and Jay are antifa members.
Do not argue facts, they do not argue issues.
They attack the person of those who disagree.
It is extremely rare to have Robby address an issue. i do not recall Jay ever addressing an issue.
All discussion with Jay and Robby ultimately becomes about morality – because all they want to discuss is the purported immorality of others.
That is true of the far left, as well as the moderate left.
I do not think that either Jay or Robby are far left.
I also do not they have sufficient principles to anchor them politically or otherwise.
“We WILL NEVER go back to no government involvement that is Daves solution.”
Never is a long time. We have been going towards less government.
We will inevitably move towards less govenrment – either by choice or by failure.
Why is the medical arena different from policing ?
Should the left get their way with policing – it will be inevitable that we end up with more vigorous policing than today. The failure of bad ideas usually drives us strongly in the opposite direction.
But i would prefer to move slowly in the right direction.
Chaos does not always drive us the opposite direction.
Mostly it drives us towards strong leaders who impose their will forcefully.
Dave, I posted 6-7 things in response to his saying I was some kind of conservative. Not exactly know the exact adjective. But you responded from my recollection that you did not agree with any and gave your reasons.
I was not saying we did not agree on anything, just those listed.
And yes, never is a long time, so replace that with ” in my remaining.lifetime”
There are many things we agree on like health care insurance. But I know your position on healthcare legislation has a very slim chance of getting into legislative debate, let along passed. So lets say we define Obamacare as Charcoal gray paint and what you want is white paint. Few legislators are going to buy white paint. But there is a chance that people dont like the current color and legislators are willing to mix in some white. My Medicare Buy In, with market rates defined by insurance actuaries, with current Bamacare subsidies, no mandate, Medicaid subscribers and money shifted to MBI to eliminate inferior poverty level insurance in many states and people can choose to buy anything or nothing is a mix of black and white. The gray we get is better than the Charcoal Gray and a ton better than pure black government run health care.
And my description of your positions should not be “extreme”. They are “purist” where mine is a crossbred. (Can we call things “crossbreds” or is that a racist term now?)
Medicare buy-in is probably worse than PPACA. Why am I going to go from charcoal gray to black.
Regardless it does not matter.
Medicare is already “bankrupt” and soon enough it will fail.
Why would you want to get there faster ?
Dave, either you only see what you want to see, or you have no idea what actuarial set market rates for subscribes means. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept reason #2.
Actuarial set market rates uses insurance experts to determine future expected costs and provide premiums to cover those anticipated costs. Then insurance companies add to that any additional amounts they can under state and federal regulations.
So, under my plan, Medicare would hire independent actuaries, not some government lifer to determine expected costs, with premiums set at that level. Under my plan, the law would require the premium resets each year to cover projected costs, as well as recoveries for excess expenses from previous years. So Medicare “Part P” (Public Option) would be completely separate from Parts A,B,C or D and would have its benefit basis using the current Medicare plan benefits.
So now Medicare P is available, Commercial is available, they compete, and those with best benefits and cost survive. And No Mandate! If Commercial A wants to drop subscribers when an adverse occurrence happens, the patient has options.
And another benefit in my plan. Medicaid, who everyone thinks is gods gift to the poor, would be shifted to MBI, with the current dollars and subscribers shifted to MBI since Medicaid is second class healthcare. Anyone analyzing treatment patterns will find Medicaid patients getting lower cost treatment than patients with other insurance.
Now whats the chance of anything happening like I propose.
My thoughts.
MBI…45%
Premiums set by independent actuarials..25%
Premiums automatically reset each year set by acturials..15%
No mandate..10%
Medicaid transferred to MBI..3%
So right now I believe there is a 55% chance that PPACA will be revised by the next congress to address the issues that allowed Trump to undermine legislation and make PPACA more admin proof than the current version.
So you dont get white, I dont get gray and American freedoms and liberties when it comes to choice of buying a product or not gets screwed.
“Dave, either you only see what you want to see, or you have no idea what actuarial set market rates for subscribes means. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept reason #2.”
When ever has government actually managed to make any of this hybrid crap to work.
Regardless you can not set rates by market means without markets.
We already have a problem with market rates as they heavily subsidize Medicare and medicaid. How will that improve with Medicate Buy in ?
I am not interested in a debate about the details of “your plan”.
Please tell me what the odds of getting “your plan” implimented – even if I agreed that in theory it might work ?
I am thoroughly unineterested in republicans who think they can make the same idiotic mistakes as democrats – but not fail because they will stir in some “magic market” nonsense on the side.
If you want markets – just have real free markets.
Dave “I am thoroughly uninterested in republicans who think they can make the same idiotic mistakes as democrats – ”
Well that goes both ways .I am thoroughly uninterested in Libertarians who think they can undo all the idiotic mistakes made by democrats and republicans–
So you have a choice. If your uninterested in my positions to compromise on legislation, then delete my comments and shut up. If your not interested, then I am not interested in your thinking either. We dont need to be wasting time and flooding everyone email with ” uniterested” comments.
“well that goes both ways .I am thoroughly uninterested in Libertarians who think they can undo all the idiotic mistakes made by democrats and republicans–”
Fair point.
“So you have a choice. If your uninterested in my positions to compromise on legislation, then delete my comments and shut up. If your not interested, then I am not interested in your thinking either. We dont need to be wasting time and flooding everyone email with ” uniterested” comments.”
I do have choices – those are some of them.
Continuing as i am is one too.
Regardless, Why do you expect that what you propose will ever make it to law ?
And if it does – why will it work as you have described ?
You claim my answers are politically unrealistic.
Why aren’t yours ?
As you note govenrment actions are nearly always compromises.
As I have argued before – it is often better to have a stupid solution that fails and we hopefully get rid of it, than to have something bad but not quite a total failure that lasts forever.
OK time line.
Roby said subways something about me conservatism.
I offered thoughts on my moderate views
Roby agreed.
You comment to the negative on all of them
I supported my moderate positions again.
You said your not interested.
I said I was not interested in your never to be achieved removal of govt
Now you ask what the chances of my positions getting into law
So go back and read my comments. I gave a percentage, which makes no difference. Tobsay it started n, those were examples to should I am not a right wing extremist even though I support much of what Trump has done!
I agreed with you on dreamers, but not birthright citizenship.
On the rest you can address my critiques or not.
They are not personal.
I do sometimes get frustrated by your “I am for limited government, except a long list of things which is ultimately everything” followed by trashing my position as politically impossible.
Turn about is fair play.
Beyond the technical objections to your list,
You and I both know they will never get through the political process unchanged.
We disagree. I am not inspired to post a multi-volume dissertation on everything I think is wrong with your proposals.
I would think that would make you happy.
Dave “I do sometimes get frustrated by your “I am for limited government, except a long list of things which is ultimately everything” followed by trashing my position as politically impossible.”
I am a realist. I am for small government. Would I have supported PPACA, no. But small government did not rule. Big, centralized government won out. It was passed in March 2010, over ten years ago! And it is STILL LAW today!!
So I “realize” that a complete repeal will not happen. I just list what I think is a good compromise. You dont accept compromise. You want complete repeal. You also want repeal on Medicare and Medicaid that has been law for 52 yrs.
I want a revision to immigration law because I accept states and federal government will not repeal welfare support for illegal immigrants or their American born infants/kids.So I offer an idea to revise the law that recognizes this. You want open borders and no support programs.
I also only make these specific positions known only when that subject is being discussed or it is required such as my response to Roby . You make your positions known during comments specific to the discussion or in ones ripe with A.D.D..
So we have different responses in handling “small” govt and in commenting about it.
“I am a realist. I am for small government. Would I have supported PPACA, no. But small government did not rule. Big, centralized government won out. It was passed in March 2010, over ten years ago! And it is STILL LAW today!!”
Maybe, but between Obama whittling away at it to save it. the courts whittling away at it, and trump and republicans whittling away at it, there is very little of it left.
Republicans should quit bitching about it,
Instead of calling something a PPACA repeal, just put forth a new plan that further brings the free market into healthcare and either gets rid of or makes optional the last bits of PPACA.
Regardless how ell did PPACA work out ?
Regardless, no a complete repeal may not happen, but fundimentally it is nearly gone anyway.
Your proposal makes things worse not better.
It does not get rid of the tiny bits of PPACA left,
But it does further stress private health insurance.
You can not get prices down using actuaries.
You can not get them down with price controls – there is little in economics that is more solidly proven than that price controls do not work.
There is only one thing that will assuredly make prices drop long term without F’ing up other things – that is free markets.
You say your a realist.
Actual free markets might not be politically possible.
But nothing else is going to work.
Everything else will assure cost and complexity rise.
It is not being a realist to push something that we know will fail.
It is not being a realist to push something that we know politicians will morph into something different from what you propose.
Dave “You can not get prices down using actuaries.
You can not get them down with price controls – there is little in economics that is more solidly proven than that price controls do not work.”
Please remind me where I said anything about getting prices down using actuaries or price controls.
You also state the way to lower prices is free markets. I agree, but it is not free market insurance, it is free market health providers and supplies.
That is a totally different situation. Reducing costs reduces premiums.
“That is a totally different situation. Reducing costs reduces premiums.”
That is how people think markets work – it is not.
The markets often produce altruistic results – they are not altruistic.
Providers reduce costs to gain an advantage.
In the end the advantage is short lived and the benefit goes to consumers.
But the impetus of const reduction is to gain advantage.
This is why you can not manage an economy.
WE have plenty of people who are “experts” in their field.
They can tell us to the penny what something costs.
They can tell us how to reduce costs, and most typically they tell us we can only do that a little.
But they are ultimately wrong.
Prices/costs are reduced because at least temporarily doing increases profits.
Medicare is failing one way or the other.
I do not need to do anything.
The question is how bad we are prepared to screw ourselves fiscally before we give up.
That is all.
Medicare is also further proof that the only choice is to get government out of this.
Medicare is not only slowly bankrupting the country, but it has been driving prices up and requiring the free market to subsidize it.
That is one of the things wrong with your proposal.
Medicare as a whole is subsidized by the market – inaddition to operating at a loss the government must make up.
Expanding medicare means less private insurance subsidizing more medicare.
At some point soon, the private market just can not subsidize the govenrment market any more and it goes into a death spiral.
Right after that the healthcare system goes into a death spiral because without private insurance the entire system is not profitable.
After that medicare itself fails.
Dave “Medicare is not only slowly bankrupting the country, but it has been driving prices up and requiring the free market to subsidize it.”
Yes, due to one main reason. Politicians trying to get reelected. Actuaries have told CMS that funding has fallen short of expenses for years. Each year the deficit gets worse. CMS then tries to make up shortages by cutting reimbursement. Then providers raise prices to cover Medicare shortfall.
Politicians wont raise funding, so the deficit worsens. They are more interested in reelection. Please remember my thoughts in actuarial set rates! The way private is sets rates.
“Yes, due to one main reason.”
The inventiveness are wrong for government to control spending.
You can not fix that with actuaries or anything else.
Politicians do not even need to have to get elected for the problem to exist.
Even totalitarians seek adulation by giving away things they did not create.
Immigration law.
Immigration is the legitimate domain of government.
First – Open Borders does not and can not mean anyone who wants can come here and with all benefits. What democrats have created is not sustainable.
I am absolutely going to join you in limiting benefits to citizens.
Though I am deeply suspicious that SCOTUS will tank that.
Regardless, there is absolutely no way you get my support to do anything about birth right citizenship. If you think the Dreamers problem is bad, how bad will it be when government starts deporting people who are born here ?
It is often said that those born here – win the lottery of life.
that is absolutely true. There is no actual difference between a child both in the US of citizens, and one born in africa in poverty except the place of birth.
There is no “right” to be an american. it is an accident of birth.
Leave it that way. You can not fix it anyway.
Look at what the US would be like today if Birth Right citizenship have been ended in 1980.
Atleast 45M people in this county would be illegal – that is 15% of the population.
Probably the number is more than twice that.
We also see what happened in Europe – absent citizenship for people born here, they do not bond to the country, but they do not leave the only place they have ever known.
They are alienated, and increasingly violent and dangerous.
The growing stresses between foreign minorities and europeans are tearing europe apart and they are going to get worse.
We do not want to choose that for ourselves.
There is lots else about immigration law that needs changed.
Require all those seeking to immigrate to the US legally that are making a claim for asylum to apply outside the US – at an embassy or consulate. Where they can prove some immediate threat – they can be allowed to wait in the US, otherwise they wait outside the US.
Make it clear that asylum is only for political refugees. That you can not get asylum because your husband beats you and the police will do nothing, or because gangs rule the streets. You can not get asylum because you live in a dangerous place.
I am proposing to clarify what asylum means. But even if we choose to accept battered wives or people from dangerous countries – We – the people, must CHOOSE it – through congress, not the courts.
I would note – I favor open borders – that means I think immigration is way net positive and we should want as much as possible.
It does not mean there is some right to immigrate, that I do not beleive countries and borders exist. Quite the opposite.
I said we should define what asylum means – I can support a very liberal definition, I can oppose a very narrow one. But WE must define what asylum means – not the courts.
I would try to revise the rules on “illegals” so that they just get deported.
That you do not get to make a claim for asylum or any other means to become legal – except through the normal process.
No detention centers, no family separation.
Any hearings or due process are solely to determine if you are a legal us resident or not.
That is the only claim you get to make if you are caught crossing the border “illegally”
OK clarify please. Coyotes bring in ten couples, all women pregnant. All women give birth to children.
children are citizens. How do you handle illegal parents?
Send them home – presumably with their children.
But the children are still citizens.
This is not the normal case.
We already have russians getting visa’s for their pregnant wives to travel to the US ang give birth so their children as US citizens.
I do not like that. We could consider denying visa’s to pregnant women.
But I am not going to eliminate birthright citizenship over one minor issue that can be addressed other ways.
There is not a huge caravan of pregnant women trying to cross illegally.
It is just too difficult.
We have seen families more recently – because the courts made it harder tot throw families out. Before we mostly see young single adult men. They are the ones who can most easily make the trip. They come to make money – not primarily to stay. They send money home.
and they eventually go home themselves. Get rid of the rules that make it hard to send families home and you will see things return to young men.
With preganant women, you have to have them travel in the 9th month.
You have to get them across just before they are going to give birth.
Close enough that they can not be deported before they give birth.
Narrow the deportation window for those crossing illegally, and you eliminate the problem.
It is incredibly hard to time a crossing of a pregnant woman. It is very hard to bring pregant women accross.
Further if you have decent border security – they are not getting accross.
“I also only make these specific positions known only when that subject is being discussed or it is required such as my response to Roby . ”
So What ?
Wouldn’t we all prefer to discuss actual issues, rather than, what has the media flipped out over today ?
Or “Orange Man Bad” ?
I do not care if you characterize my positions as extreme.
The point I was making regarding “extreme” is the extremist threat is entirely on the left today.
If libertarians are “extreme” – we do not have much of a voice as a party or within the GOP.
There is no consequential group in the GOP that is as “extreme” as Bernie Sanders, much less BLM.
I keep referring to Alinsky, Alinsky is just the formal expression the political tactics that relies on insult, uproar, … That the left has been using for decades.
But Alinsky’s “rules for radicals” do not care whether they are used by the left or the right.
They are effective, but they focus on making your opponent look bad rather than making persuasive arguments.
Alinsky is the WMD of argument, and Trump has adopted it on the right, and that means we can back down and work to persuade or we can move to Mutually Assured Destruction.
But Akinsky is tactics. It does not care about the underlying arguments.
When we look at actual positions – the “right” today is NOT extreme.
No one is advocating for a return to slavery, Jim crow, segregation.
Trump is not undoing the past 80 years of left shifting american politics.
He is undoing the bad policies of Obama.
This is not “extreme”.
I am very tired of this “extremists right and left” nonsense.
Everytime there is some nut job committing a heinous crime we all pray that his social media will implicate the other side.
These guys are nuts. most of the time their “ideolgy is a nuts mismash”, but each side is still praying for the clearly ideological zealot mass killer from the other side.
But historically political violence is initiated from the left. There are a few counter examples, but not many.
When I was a kid the KKK was real, and there were a fair number of actual Nazis in the country. This is not the case today. There are 10 times more Antifa in Portland than white nationalists in the US.
The “Proud Boys” are offered as the example of right wing extremism
They are tiny and their credo is “a Western chauvinist who refuses to apologize for creating the modern world.”
I doubt I would really fit in with the Proud Boys – but I have no problem with there credo or their tenants.
Regardless if that is the far right – there is nothing to worry about from the right.
Where is this “extremism”
We listened as Rick and Robby defamed Limbaugh as a racist – and his followers as worse.
There is a top 10 list of purportedly racist remarks by Limbaugh.
Almost all have been rated as False. At the same time Limbaugh has admitted that as a shock jock in the 70’s he said some insensitive things to callers that he regrets today.
A very few of the “racist” quotes attributed to Limbaugh are true. They are also not racist.
Today saying that blacks commit more murders per capita than whites is considered racist.
It is also true.
Maybe Limbaugh is some crypto racist. Personally I do not listen to him.
Regardless if you are calling Limbaugh Racist you are calling 30m listeners racist.
I do not think we had 30m significantly racist people in this country in the 60’s. Much less today
The modern right is not extreme. The most extreme portions of the right just want to be left alone. They are OK with gays marrying, and Transgendered all over the place – so long as their kids are safe from pedophiles in a public restroom – an no Transgendered people are not peodophiles – but Peodophiles will do whatever it takes to molest children.
Some have pointed out that the leaders of BLM are pretty extreme marxists.
SO WHAT ? I will defend their rights as much as Gavin McIness.
I will defend their right to speak. But not to engage in violence.
Either of them .
Who thinks that Gavin McIness is has anyone listening to him ? Has any political power at all ?
Yet the entire democratic party is kneeling to BLM.
Imagine if Republicans were kowtowing to McIness.
The extremism in this country is lopsided.
Trump is not extreme. He is sometimes offensive.
They are not the same.
I guess my position on all of this boils down to the fact that virtue-signalling, threats, intimidation and demonizing people who think differently than you, is no way to solve problems.
As Kevin Williamson (never-Trumper, for what it’s worth) has written in National Review:
“Nobody’s going to do one goddamned thing about how they conduct business in Philadelphia or Chicago or any other corrupt, Democrat-dominated city, but there are going to be some “new representation and inclusion standards for Oscars eligibility,” and we are going to be treated to — joy of joys! — a deep national discussion on whether some Broadway stars don’t have it quite as good as other Broadway stars. The bloody-snouted hyenas have looked up from the kill just long enough to announce the creation of the Goldman Sachs Fund for Racial Equity.”
And the rich will continue to be rich, the corrupt political machines will continue to promise solutions for poverty, while they greedily ransack our cities, and the media will continue to shape the narrative by ignoring reality and promoting civil strife.
\
We are also in the midst of the great “noose” debacle.
there are about 100 complaints about nooses per year.
The overwhelming majority of these turn out to be deliberate hoaxes by black activists.
Who are fortunately not smart enough to avoid getting caught
Unfortunately our system responds to this nonsense anyway.
Of those that are not hoaxes – nearly all are not nooses. Go look at the photos – if you can find them – the NASCAR door pull or the loops in the trees in the park.
You must be deliberately trying to conflate every bit of rope into a racial message to get noose.
I would further note that all “nooses” are not racist.
I was in the Fall play my senior year. There was not a black person in the cast.
My character was rewritten from black to jewish – because we had no black student to play them.
My role was very minor and I had lots of free time. I spent some of it tying knots in the stage ropes – I had been a boy scout and was fascinated by ropes.
Eventually I tried “hangman’s knots” and found that they disturbed the cast – so I tied more.
There was nothing racist in it.
Ron, I was finishing my second comment and missed reading yours first.
I agree that it would be fascinating to have everyone give their thoughts and opinions on the issues of the day, rather than arguing over whether Trump is a good or bad president, whether some TV or radio personality is right or wrong, or whether people who see things differently than we do are at fault for the problems of the country.
That’s not to say that there isn’t room for discussion of Trump, or the media, or that certain groups or persons bear responsiblity for instigating and stiking strife.
But, those discussions tend to go round and round, and devolve into mudfights and scapegoating.
I’d certainly like to get away from that, even temporarily.
The issue here with some is if you defend anything Trump does, your a Trumpanzee. As I have bitched for years about bad trade agreements with China costing us thousands of manufacturing jobs, no one ever called me a racist, extremist or any other anti-Trump name until Trump was elected.
So when Biden is elected and he proposes Medicare Buy In and it does not have a mandate to purchase, I will support that. And miraculously, I will become a bleeding heart liberal.
If you advocate for anything anyone on the left does not agree with
you are a hateful hating hater – and that has been true long before Trump
Look at what happened to Romney, to McCain ?
Those on the left do not want to discuss issues.
All they want to discuss is how Trump and anyone who does not condemn him straight to hell are hateful hating haters
Priscilla, a year or so ago you and Dave busied yourselves defending and sympathizing with the proud boys and repelling and debunking all of my comments on them. I responded and at no time did you in any way back down from your defence of them.
That, regrettably, explains a good bit of my opinion of your ideology regarding race.
Your defences of both Rush Limbaugh and trump over the years do factor in too.
I’d love to have a different opinion of your ideology but you would have to provide a basis.
Our Potus who gave the thoroughly and clearly racist agitator Rush Limbaugh the medal of Freedom at the SOTU just apparently tweeted a video of one of his supporters yelling “White Power.”
What does that mean? My prediction is that you and Dave will fall over your selves to say it has no meaning at all. Well he has apparently deleted it now, but I have not read that he has made any statement regarding how he could have done that or how he actually feels about his supporters being fans of White Power. Oh well, let the so-whatting begin from you and Dave.
As I said, sincerely, I wish I would have a different idea of your stance on this but…
I can add that having read all that Rick has posted over a decade I doubt his position is far from yours either: The activists in the MSM media are stirring this idea of discrimination up, the turmoil is mostly their fault; why should blacks feel separate, hyphenated etc., we can’t they just be happy as Americans?; Rush says provocative things, but, what the heck, he is not a grand visor, and he is fun to listen to; its the overworked and factually uninformed people who think we still have a race problem who are most of the problem; its the poor whites who really have a bad deal. Those are Ricks opinions consistently expressed over many years. I have heard all his ideas about race problems. I would rather believe otherwise but words are words.
“a year or so ago you and Dave busied yourselves defending and sympathizing with the proud boys and repelling and debunking all of my comments on them. I responded and at no time did you in any way back down from your defence of them.”
defending and sympathizing are entirely different things.
And you do this all the time.
Know matter how hard I go after you for it, you seem to think it is OK to defame others.
I do not know much about “the proud boys”. What I know is from THEIR web site.
I have to trust that they are who they say they are. Just like I have to do for Antifa.
If they were actually Nazis or the KKK I would be defending their right to free speech.
Just as I will defend the right of Antifa and BLM to free speech.
But I do not “sympathize” with Nazi’s or KKK or Proud Boys or Antifa or BLM or Limbaugh.
You are constantly playing this vile defamatory game – that when you slander someone else, and someone asks you to prove your claim, you respond by defaming whoever challenged you.
Let me repeat again. That is vile and immoral.
It is neither “defending” nor “sympathizing” to expect that when you call other racists, sexists, homophobes, or hateful, hating, haters, that you will provide actual and significant evidence to back up your defamatory accusation.
So that is your FIRST problem.
The Next morally repugnant thing that you do is defame anyone who defends the rights of others.
Priscilla is making a big deal that the leaders of BLM are Marxists. And she is correct – they openly admit that. They celebrate it.
But they are still entitled to free speech and free assembly and to petition the government.
And I will defend those rights – not just for BLM, but for every single other group – whether you think they are repugnant or not.
Defending the right of others – often those who would never defend my rights, is not
defending their ideas or sympathizing with them.
But it is absolutely the moral thing to do. And if you are attacking them for speaking or me for defending their free speech – you are neither moral nor liberal.
Further you are defaming Priscilla and I.
That is immoral.
And I am sick and tired of it.
You rant that Trump’s style offends you – look in the mirror. You words are WORSE.
You may be only slightly left of center, but you have fully embraced the most evil things the far left does. You constantly lob false moral accusations.
I do not care about your opinion of me – or anyone else.
No one should give a $h!t what those who constantly make false accusations say.
Lets get this out in the open – no hiding.
Are you accusing Priscilla and I or being racist ?
Either openly admit that – or retract your comment.
There is no grey area here.
There is no middle.
You say “proud boys” are racist – maybe they are.
But if you call someone a racist – you are obligated to back up that claim.
We are all listening.
You say Limbaugh is clearly racist – maybe he is.
But if you call someone a racist – you are obligated to back up that claim.
We are all listening.
“What does that mean?”
Why is anyone obligated to explain to you what someone else means ?
If you are looking to make moral accusations – the burden or proof is on you.
I am sick and tired of this nonsense that I have to explain to you what someone you despise means by something that has incensed you.
Are you obligated to explain what everything BLM say means ? or everything Biden says ?
Your capable of making your own judgements. And your not entitled to demand that others reach the same judgments as you.
“My prediction is that you” will continue to make moral accusations of others – including now Priscilla and I, without any consideration of the consequences.
Specifically regarding the Trump tweet.
I am trying to find the actual video, but as reported by Politico, it involves a confrontation between anti-trump protestors who pointed at Trump and said
“There you go, white power.”
“Trump bigot and racist”
“Donald Trump white trash” and shouted profanities toward the supporters.
called a supporter a “Nazi racist pig.”
In the midst of this One Trump supporter responded to the anti-trump supporter yelling
“There you go, white power.” by shouting back “white power”.
——————–
Trump claims not to have heard that in the video.
Regardless, I am tired of your Bull$h!t.
I guess in Robby world those on the right have to phrase everything they say perfectly.
But those on the left get to spray us all with whatever bull$h!t they wish.
Are you going to condemn the protestor who was calling Trump supporters ‘nazi racist pigs” ?
Or “bigots and racists” ?
When assholes on the left are busy spraying everyone they disagree with hatred I expect that some of those they call vile names might reply back.
Regardless, the problem is on the left.
Reign in your own tongue, and then I will be interested in what you have to say.
When YOU are not calling everyone you do not agree with a racist or worse.
When YOU are not calling Priscilla and I racist or worse.
Then I might give a crap when you complain about what others say.
What it “means” is that a bunch of life wing assholes spraying vitriol angered some Trump supporters and they lost their tempers a little.
The problem is on the left.
“As I said, sincerely, I wish I would have a different idea of your stance on this but…”
I do not care – and I would think Priscilla should not care what YOU who are now calling us racists, thinks.
Why is it that we should believe you regarding Limbaugh, the proud boys, Trump, when you are spraying the same hate speech at us ?
I would like to say “if everyone is racist, no one is”.
But that lets you off to easy.
You are worse that racist. You are someone who makes false moral accusations about others.
Robby,
Go seek help. You have lost it.
Who is it you do not think is a racist ?
Roby, you have gone off the deep end on this.
Neither Rick nor I are racists. Having typed that, I’m almost forced to laugh at the ridiculousness of even having to do so.
Almost.
I gave you specific reasons for my opinion. You have no response to those reasons. Just, I am not… Maybe, give me some more up to date info on your views on the proud boys and the Magic Negro humor of the recent recipient of the nations highest civilian honor instead?
It is Limbaugh and his followers and the Proud boys and their followers who went of the deep end. It’s trump and the GOP that have gone off the deep end in a vile and dangerous way that needs to be answered.
Racism exists in many forms and to many degrees, mild to strong. As I have said, the further left one is the more they tend to see Everything as racism, and the further right, nothing short of the white robes and burning crosses qualify. In my world Rush Limbaugh is explicitly and proudly a racist. What does that make the people who think that calling Obama the “Magic Negro” is funny (or even acceptable) or posting pictures of the Obamas as gorillas etc.?
You are currently in a state of shock that so many people are actually siding with the protesters to some degree. Let me offer some possible explanation for why that might be.
In a Pew poll it was found that 80% of Americans dislike or detest PC. That could be a great campaign issue for the GOP. But not by the Limbaugh path. Not by the proud boys path. Not by the trump path. The answer to people who have no tolerance at all to anything that offends them is not to go overboard offending them by repeating a horrible history. Yes, we hate PC as a group, but as a group a majority of Americans also hate the actual events and behaviors that produced PC as a very flawed answer. Jackasses like Limbaugh and his followers have misjudged. Trump has misjudged and his giving the Medal of Freedom to Rush was a huge misjudgement. It was blatantly honoring an explicit racist in an in your face manner. That idiotic act made the racial politics of the trump GOP explicit. A racist president, a racist party and a racist base. But hell, most of them don’t shoot up black churches, they are not Grand Wizards, so… They are just a little racist, merely white chauvinists but not white supremacists. That is not really so bad right?
There is substance behind the complaints of the protesters. It’s a thing in conservative circles to underestimate the legitimate anger of a very large number of people. like it’s a thing to believe that the Swedes are all generating herd immunity.
Priscilla, things are happening that dismay you, you really don’t understand why, oh, we are all screwed, these black Marxists are burning down the country and people seem to accept it. How could that be? I’ll tell how, there is a silent majority all right and its not the one trump refers to.
Your trump led populist movement has generated its backlash. Enjoying it much?
Roby, Was this meant for me because Word Press sent it’semail as a response to Ron. I don’t ever remember talking about Proud Boys. I don’t even know who they are today.
“I gave you specific reasons for my opinion.”
When ? EVER ? I beg for you to give actual reassons for anything. You almost never do.
“Maybe, give me some more up to date info on your views on the proud boys”
Why is Ron or anyone else required to have a view on the proud boys.
You have accused them of being racist. Maybe they are. But you have not established that.
You have not tried.
“the Magic Negro humor of the recent recipient of the nations highest civilian honor instead”
Limbaugh did not invent the term. The LA Times did. Limbaugh merely parodied it.
The parody is not that good overall, but if it it racist the LA Times is racist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Negro#Barack_Obama
“It is Limbaugh and his followers and the Proud boys and their followers who went of the deep end.”
They did ? How – make your case with facts.
Your “magic negro” attack was a flop.
I guess no one is allowed to poke fun at the left in Robby world.
“It’s trump and the GOP that have gone off the deep end in a vile and dangerous way that needs to be answered.”
Again evidence ? Are Trump supporters burning, looting, destroying property, killing each others ?
“Racism exists in many forms and to many degrees, mild to strong. As I have said, the further left one is the more they tend to see Everything as racism, and the further right, nothing short of the white robes and burning crosses qualify.”
Thank you for that lecture Prof. Robby. I have been living in a bubble for the past 60 years.
I missed the civil rights movement, the summer of rage, vietnam, the assassination of MLK, the Birmingham bombings.
“In my world Rush Limbaugh is explicitly and proudly a racist.”
I do not want your oppinion, I want evidence. Without it your oppinion is not worth anything.
“What does that make the people who think that calling Obama the “Magic Negro” is funny (or even acceptable) or posting pictures of the Obamas as gorillas etc.?”
I do not know ? What made LA Times think that as acceptable ?
“You are currently in a state of shock”
Back to the mind reading.
“Let me offer some possible explanation for why that might be.”
Why do I need your explanations.
I have been here posting about problems with police for YEARS.
I do not need your help understanding the problems with policing.
I am highly sympathetic to the desire of protesters for improved policing.
“In a Pew poll it was found that 80% of Americans dislike or detest PC.”
Think about that – YOU are here spouting PC nonsense and you wonder why you are getting pushback ?”
“That could be a great campaign issue for the GOP.”
Yes, the GOP should be taking campaign advice from you ?
“But not by the Limbaugh path.”
Your the one wigging out over Limbaugh.
And so far you have failed.
Wow, Limbaugh parodied an editorial in the LA Times.
Search his house for KKK hoods!
“Not by the proud boys path.”
The proud boys are completely inconsequential.
If you could actually prove they were radical white supremecists – something you have so far not even attempted,
What are there maybe 12 proud boys in the US ?
So a group that you have failed to demostrate is racist, and has a membership that is not large enough to get a dog catcher elected is the big problem with the GOP.
“Not by the trump path.”
Worked in 2016.
“The answer to people who have no tolerance at all to anything that offends them is not to go overboard offending them by repeating a horrible history.”
Yes, the way to deal with the left is to offend the shit out of them – because it exposes them both as silly and hateful.
Look at what you have done to yourself.
Not only have you called Priscilla and I racist – but now Rick is too.
I guess your going to report TNM to SPLC and get it blacklisted as a white supremecy site.
“Yes, we hate PC as a group”
Robby – you ARE PC.
“but as a group a majority of Americans also hate the actual events and behaviors that produced PC as a very flawed answer. Jackasses like Limbaugh and his followers have misjudged. Trump has misjudged and his giving the Medal of Freedom to Rush was a huge misjudgement. It was blatantly honoring an explicit racist in an in your face manner. That idiotic act made the racial politics of the trump GOP explicit. A racist president, a racist party and a racist base. But hell, most of them don’t shoot up black churches, they are not Grand Wizards, so… They are just a little racist, merely white chauvinists but not white supremacists. That is not really so bad right?”
There have been more shootings of white churches and more shootings of Jewish synogogues.
Are those examples of racism.
If Proud Boys are white supremecists – you should be able to prove that easily.
And your the one wigged out over Limbaugh – not the country.
“There is substance behind the complaints of the protesters.”
Yes, there are problems with out policing that need addressed.
LIKE I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS!
“It’s a thing in conservative circles to underestimate the legitimate anger of a very large number of people.”
“like it’s a thing to believe that the Swedes are all generating herd immunity.”
Swedens death rate is lower than Belgium, the UK, Spain, Italy and barely about France and the US.
There is only one way to reign in a respiratory viral epidemic – immunity.
That is it, it is the only method that has every existed.
You can get immunity by being infected.
You can get it from a vaccine.
But nothing else has ever worked.
The good news is that many of us have natural immunity or high resistance.
The flu rarely infects over 20% of a population.
Just in case you are unclear this is SCIENCE Robby.
Your the biologist – tell us all when any respiratory virus that has gotten a significant foothold has ever but stopped by any of the measures our governments have taken ?
“these black Marxists are burning down the country and people seem to accept it. How could that be? I’ll tell how, there is a silent majority all right and its not the one trump refers to.
Your trump led populist movement has generated its backlash. Enjoying it much?”
By a 12pt margin americans currently favor letting CONFEDERATE statues remain.
By a 39pt margin americans support using the military to end the riots.
71% support using the national guard.
Even among blacks support for using the national guard to stop this is evenly split.
And Biden’s poll numbers are dropping again.
Lord No Ron, not to you.
I will just add though before toddling off to bed that I am a racist myself sometimes depending on the situation. Everyone, except some blind people and a few saints is to some extent. Some a lot, some a little. Some are proud of it, some are not proud of it. Some are honest about it, some are not.
But the GOP stinks of it and is exploiting it. Its gonna cost them I hope.
“I will just add though before toddling off to bed that I am a racist myself sometimes depending on the situation. ”
Yes, and like nearly all of us the extent is tiny today, and it is only consequential in a few.
My daughter is on the but end of racist treatment from frequently from blacks.
We are all tribal. It is in our DNA.
the greater the distance between us and who you are trying to get us to care about the weaker our concern.
Ourselves, our family, our extended family, our community, our church, our high school, our city our state or race or nation.
We all have pride in membership in groups and greater suspicion of those in the outgroup.
That is natural human behavior.
And Guess what – it is the weakest in the US. We are not a perfect melting pot, But we are more of one than any other nation.
India still has a caste system among people of the same race.
“But the GOP stinks of it and is exploiting it. ”
Based on what evidence ?
Roby, I’m not going to get into a mudfight with you on this. Call everyone a racist if that makes you feel superior and if it assuages your white guilt, but you are simply falling for the narrative that nothing has changed for blacks since the Jim Crow days, and that is patently false, not to mention ridiculous.
It’s dangerous to foment racial strife and violence, simply so that theDemocrats can regain power, but that’s where we are. The Police Reform bill proposed by GOP Senator Tim Scott, was blocked by the Dems, merely because Scott is a black man, and Democrats didn’t want anything good to be attributed to him. Racist, right? Oh, I forgot, only Republicans can be racist…
(For what it’s worth, the Proud Boys started as a joke. They are barely a blip on anyone’s radar, but, I do think that they crossed a line when they decided that fighting violence with violence was acceptable. It’s not. There you go, I think that they are to be condemned, right along with Antifa.)
The issue regarding “proud boys” is important specifically because Robby is wrong and the proud boys are inconsequential.
The Proud Boys are another of those “dog whistles” – examples of massive problems on the right that only those on the left can see.
If the proud boys were real white supremecists, if they numbered in the thousands – they still would be dwarfed exponentially be left violent radicals.
Further Robby fixated on Philly and Baltimore – how many poor minority kids have no chance because the Proud Boys are keeping them down ?
Robby is chasing obvious red herrings.
It does not matter whether he proves the Proud Boys are racist or not.
The whole argument is so obvioulsy pointless he destroys his credibility making it.
He and the left are litterally doing the same as the Nazi’s did.
The Nazi’s blames the jews for everything.
Robby blames the Proud Boys.
We can continue the debate on the proud boys forever – it just makes him and the left look smaller.
Hi Rick, your commentaries always provoke such interesting discussions. I have to admit that I have not completely read everyone’s comment, but let me add that I have no problem with removing the Confederate statues, but I would like to see it done lawfully. I think that Robert E. Lee said it best but he was referring to all monuments referencing the Civil War, “”I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavoured to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it has engendered.” I just ordered his biography. He did not believe in secession or slavery and was offered the command of the Union, but he could not raise his sword against his family, friends or state of Virginia so he declined the Union command.
Just one more comment alan dershowitz gave an interview about a number of issues but he focused more on the BLM. He stated that their charter is very anti-semetic. So I guess Black Lives Matter but Jewish Lives Don’t.
Savannah, the BLM founders and many of its members are Marxists, and Marxism has always been anti-Semitic:
“Marx identified Judaism with the hated capitalist system, an antisocial force of alienation. “Real” emancipation meant doing away with Judaism. Marx’s antisemitic prejudices were later cited with relish by the Nazis, including Hitler. ”
https://www.thejc.com/news/news-features/the-great-marxist-lie-about-jew-hate-1.488259
I agree with you that Confederate statues might be lawfully removed, without much controversy. But the Orwellian way that revolutionary Marxists and anarchists are destroying historical artifacts, with very little pushback, is pretty horrifying. Unfortunately, many of those who are gleefully taking down statues of former presidents, saints, composers, etc. would not be able to tell you who those figures were, what they believed, or why they were commemorated in such a way.
Priscilla, agree with everything you said. I knew that Marxism was anti-religious and anti-capitalist but did not realize it directed some of its wrath towards Judaism, since both of Marx’s parents were Jews (maybe not practicing Jews). Interesting.
To avoid having Ron think I am replying to him I will reply to you, Dave, in a fresh post.
“We are all tribal. It is in our DNA.
the greater the distance between us and who you are trying to get us to care about the weaker our concern.
Ourselves, our family, our extended family, our community, our church, our high school, our city our state or race or nation.
We all have pride in membership in groups and greater suspicion of those in the outgroup.
That is natural human behavior.”
Here is the one part of your rant that I agree with.
And like the biological value of having a thrifty metabolism, the tribal mentality was beneficial for most of human history. But today a thrifty metabolism means battling obesity and losing. And being tribal is likewise no longer of the same benefit it was over tens of thousands of years or more.
Yes, we are tribal in our genes. Some embrace that and use it politically for example, Limbaugh and trump. Some are more introspective about it and try to overcome it in themselves and in society. In my universe that is a better thing.
All the rest of your rant was the usual reflexive uber-denialism. The part about Swedish herd immunity was especially typical Davish denialism. Herd immunity has turned out to be very, very low in Sweden. As in, in single digits. As in, hasn’t happened to any meaningful extent. You are wrong about their death rate, it is 522 per million, higher than France, 456, and the US 380. Only Italy, Spain and Britain have (slightly) higher rates per million people. The countries neighboring Sweden have rates that are literally 10 times lower. The Swedish strategy has killed a lot of Swedes.
I pick on the Proud boys because they are an example of a militant white chauvinist group who got some kind of platform from the NYGOP for a while before they thought better and withdrew it. I don’t know what their numbers are but their ideas have a far broader audience, which is why I use their example. I also use their example because both you and Priscilla have defended them here.
I recognize my own tribal (racist) tendencies and admit that they are natural and human. It does not mean that I like them or think that they are helpful in modern society. In fact I think that they still have plenty of poison in them and are destructive in the modern context.
I have to laugh, in a grim way, at your thousands of repeats of the denialistic statement that the harmful side of racism has a very small impact in the US. Right, like you have an objective opinion. I am supposed to try to argue you out of your obliviousness. Using the example of the herd immunity flop in Sweden, your contrarian head is made of granite and no sensible person who knows you trys to alter your opinions. A waste of time.
You can live in your universe where racism causes little harm in the US and I will live in mine where it is still very poisonous and destructive, most especially to the black population. The actual truth is complex and lies in the middle depending on the chosen statistic.
Go out into the areas where blacks live and give your speech to them. Let me know how it is received. Go stand on a street corner in Philly or Baltimore and preach your Gospel of the mild effects of present day racism in America. In my universe your opinions are those of a pseudo-factual contrarian and a dinosaur.
“Go out into the areas where blacks live”
Blacks live in my neighborhood, which happens to be a very nice neighborhood. So, do Asians, Indians and Hispanics. They are all middle class professionals, and they have the same concerns as other middle class voters. We all socialize, our kids grew up together and became close friends,and many of them are in touch to this day. I am sure that many of these people have encountered racism in their lives, but they are not demanding reparations, and they do not blame every white person for the state of the country.
Roby, you seem to believe that all blacks are poor and uneducated, because that is true of our cities, which have failed to provide adequate schools, and failed to provide adequate public safety. Every 2-4 years, the politicians who run those cities, go out and promise some government programs that will solve the problem of rampant drug abuse, poor schools and high crime. And guess what? NOTHING EVER HAPPENS, because those politicians, almost always Dems, don’t really care, once the election is over.
Maybe the fact that there are hardly any black people in Vermont has skewedyour perception.
“I am sure that many of these people have encountered racism in their lives, but they are not demanding reparations, and they do not blame every white person for the state of the country.”
Good, because that would be a waste of time. But its not a realistic standard. If they can afford your nice neighborhood and its property taxes they are upper middle class and have had a pretty good experience in America. Very few blacks (and even simply relatively few people) live in the upper middle class neighborhood you live in.
No, I do not think that most blacks (or minorities) are poor and uneducated. They are however certainly disproportionately poorer and on average less educated. I don’t blame that on systematic racism at this time. I attribute it to the fact that their path through american history has been much more difficult and started from a much lower position and as a group have not caught up to the average. Until relatively recently systematic racism did play a huge role, the civil rights movement erased most of that. But the scars remain.
The fact that blacks and minorities live disproportionately in cities and that large cities are nearly all run by democrats and that the problems you list do not improve are facts occur simultaneously, which does not prove causation. The idea that the Dem politicians “don’t care” is just your partisan projection. You have no way of knowing that. Things do not change because the problems are incredibly complex and difficult and self perpetuate, that is my theory.
By the way take almost any negative social statistic, poverty, low life expectancy, literacy, low income, and you will find that politically conservative states take up the majority of the worst cases. What does that prove? Its complex and anyone who wants to prove an ideological point can chose some statistics and their underlying issues and ignore others. Where does that get us?
“If they can afford your nice neighborhood and its property taxes they are upper middle class and have had a pretty good experience in America. Very few blacks (and even simply relatively few people) live in the upper middle class neighborhood you live in.”
I do not specifically know Priscilla. Today I am and live in the 2nd quintile in the US.
That is pretty good – 40% of the country do better, 60% do worse.
I could pretty easily do better, I would just have to move to SF or San Diego or Seatle and I could get into the top quintile – but I choose to live where the cost of living is lower.
Where I have 2 acres in the woods at a price you could not buy a dump in seatle.
After HS I was primarily in the 3rd quintile. I was living in shitty places – not the worst, but pretty bad. And I lived in those places for over a decade. That is what I could afford at the time.
One of my closest friends, was from that time. My wife was very close to her mother, she was maid of honor at our wedding. She was there for us after the rape. And when she died, we were their for her daughter – who also got raped. Something all to common in the neighborhood we lived in then. We now live in the country. So does she.
This is my world – DNA test have revealed that the rumors about my great grandmother are true – I am about 16% Ashkenazi Jew, the rest is poor Irish immigrants. My wife is German anabaptist, My daughter Chinese, My Son South Korean. my Best Friend Ukrainian. My wifes best friend is black, their children are my closest “relatives” – we go to their place for holidays – which oddly is the most likely place I will encounter red necks and trump supporters. Our church is flamingly LGBTQ, but even outside of that a radically disproportionate portion of my friends are not straight, and many of those are not white either. One of the cliques I was drawn to in HS was a bible study. That is where I met my wife. It has taken decades for most of them to come out of the closet, but aparently my evangelical christian HS bible study was almost entirely lesbians.
“No, I do not think that most blacks (or minorities) are poor and uneducated. ”
Well they are. And it is the left that has made them that way.
“They are however certainly disproportionately poorer and on average less educated. I don’t blame that on systematic racism at this time.”
You do not ? Well they are not going to the segretated southern schools of the early 20th century. They are going to schools in the north, in NY, in Baltimore, in Detroit.
“I attribute it to the fact that their path through american history has been much more difficult and started from a much lower position and as a group have not caught up to the average.”
Most of them have been living in northern cities for over a century.
“Until relatively recently systematic racism did play a huge role, the civil rights movement erased most of that.”
The civil rights moment is the pinacle – the changes started long before.
WWII was a huge factor – bur so was WWI.
“But the scars remain.” Because leftists whites pick at them.
“The fact that blacks and minorities live disproportionately in cities and that large cities are nearly all run by democrats and that the problems you list do not improve are facts occur simultaneously, which does not prove causation.”
Glad to see that you recognize that correleation and causeation are not the same.
But in this case you are WRONG.
These things have been true – often for a century. The root problems for minorities in this country – poor education, crime, lack of oportunities, broken families, are all problems that are far worse in those cities, and particularly in minority communities.
Grow up Robby – the left made this mess. Not the Proud Boys, not Rush Limbaugh, not mythical white supremecists.
” The idea that the Dem politicians “don’t care” is just your partisan projection.”
No it is observable reality.
I have said one of the big deals about Trump – why he will likely be re-elected is that he keeps his promises.
Those on the left don’t. You have made promises for a century for the votes of urban minorities – you have not kept your promises. No one else has stopped you from improving the lot of urban minorities. Schools have actually declined. In the 50’s black families were intact. There was real progress towards a black middle class. You destroyed that.
All you white democrats should be out prostrating yourselves to BLM – you F;d up.
but do not blame the mess you made on republicans or Trump supporters, They had nothing to do with the mess you made.
“You have no way of knowing that. Things do not change because the problems are incredibly complex and difficult and self perpetuate, that is my theory.”
And yet that is false. Myriads of other immigrant groups has come into US cities, living in poverty that makes Baltimore today look like Luxury. They have faced similar discrimination.
My Ancestors faced lots of discrimination against the Irish.
Catholic immigrants famously created their own education systems and educated their own children. Catholic education in the US even today costs less than 1/4 what public education does and is better than nearly all public schools.
The problems are not impossible to solve. They are just impossible for the left to solve.
“By the way take almost any negative social statistic, poverty, low life expectancy, literacy, low income, and you will find that politically conservative states take up the majority of the worst cases. What does that prove?”
The vast majority of those bottom tier conservative states – we democratic states for all but the last 20 years. They are also the places in the country were things are improving the fastest. In many instances racial problems are not nearly as bad in the modern south than in norther cities.
“Its complex and anyone who wants to prove an ideological point can chose some statistics and their underlying issues and ignore others. Where does that get us?”
Yes, if you are prepared to misuse statistics, ignore regression to isolate variables, and statistical significance to tell you what ones matter – you can prove anything.
But if you follow the actual statistics you will find that “the left lies”.
And this is so true that you do not need statistics to see it.
Is there a successful communist state ? Socialist ? Has big government worked ANYWHERE ?
Has leftism worked anywhere ?
“Its complex and anyone who wants to prove an ideological point can chose some statistics and their underlying issues and ignore others. Where does that get us?”
Lets say you are correct – though you arent.
Your argument essentially is that we can not solve our problems – we can not tell what the truth is because we can not tell valid data from invalid data. That ultimately we just have to pick one ideology or the other and go with it, and expect further ruin regardless.
If you have no means for determing what works and what does not – then you are just throwing darts at random and can not even tell if you succeed.
So lets address some reality for you.
Catholic schools work. They have for nearly 2 centuries. They have had problems – but not nearly those of public schools.
Minorities are increasingly finding that Charter Schools work.
We KNOW that we can do better than the urban public education that we have, that is egregiously expensive and unbeleivably harmfull to those subject to it.
Lets start there. Close public schools. Sell the buildings. Give parents 1/2 the money that is given to public school districts and tell them to go find an education for their kids.
In a few years you will radically transform the prospects of minorities.
You know, Roby, I always think that it’s best to state your own opinion and listen to the opinions of others. You prefer to state my opinions for me, but that’s just your way, I guess.
I believe that many of the southern states were remiss in leaving up the statues of Confederate soldiers. And, by remiss, I mean wrong. I don’t believe that they did this out of overt racism (although that could certainly be true of some), but, in context, many of these statues are monuments to those young Confederate soldiers who died fighting for a losing cause, and who were mourned by their families and neighbors. So, in the context of the time, it’s understandable.
Once it became clear that these monuments memorialized men who fought and died for a morally wrong cause, and that the statues were a painful reminder, to many, of a time when America allowed humans to be enslaved, they should have been lawfully removed. Same for the military commanders of the Confederacy.
That is my opinion.
I also believe that the thugs, many of them rich white kids, who think that they’re revolutionaries, who are tearing down statues of Washngton, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Cloumbus, etc are mob-driven morons, who have no sense of morals and certainly no sense of history. That’s where we are now, and it’s driven, not by morals, but by politics.
That’s my opinion, too.
I hate populism. I hate mobs. I said long ago that trumps right wing demagogic populism was sure to provoke a swing to a left wing populist mob. Giving Limbaugh the medal of Freedom certainly added to the anger, its was an in your face repudiation of PC that was sure to drive PC to higher levels. I am hoping Limbaugh lives long enough to see trump driven out. I despise them both.
I would prefer that statues come down lawfully, personally I would simply put a plaque on them that explains the downside of the person who has been immortalized and leave the statue up.
The bigger point is that this unrest and protest and yes, this violence against property, has roots in some genuinely terrible situations.
I don’t believe that our legal system has left any systematic racism in place.
But policing is a problem and not just for minorities. Of the several psychological types who are attracted to police work, one of them, which loves power, authority, action, should be screened out. Police should all have video running when in action, period for the protection of the public and themselves. Its a no brainer. Some police unions, Boston for example have blocked that. Why? Some of the things police forces do could be split off and handed to people who are not carrying guns. Most of all, I would address inner city dystopian poverty with a giant CETA type program to teach job skills while rebuilding the infrastructure of the inner cities as well as that in areas of rural poverty. I would cheerfully spend a trillion, yes a trillion, on that.
” Giving Limbaugh the medal of Freedom certainly added to the anger, its was an in your face repudiation of PC that was sure to drive PC to higher levels.”
Yes, the Limbaugh Medal of freedom is at the top of the list of BLM grevances.
Sorry Robby, the only people who are pissed over this are wing nuts.
“I am hoping Limbaugh lives long enough to see trump driven out. I despise them both.”
Yes, we know, you are a “hateful, hating hater”.
“I would prefer that statues come down lawfully”
The majority of americans do not want them to come down at all. Not even the confederate statues.
“The bigger point is that this unrest and protest and yes, this violence against property, has roots in some genuinely terrible situations.”
Yes, the democratic destruction of the inner cities.
Even if you actually demonstrated that policing was systemically racist – it would be the racism of YOUR system.
There is no way to argue this is not a problem of your making.
Frankly I do not give a crap how you solve it – YOURSELF.
Leave the 99% of the country that is not rioting out of this.
Whatever you do – pay for it yourself.
“I don’t believe that our legal system has left any systematic racism in place.”
Then you beleive wrong. They only statistically significant signal of racism in our criminal justice system is in sentencing – that is judicial, not policing.
“But policing is a problem and not just for minorities.”
Correct – the problems are not race.
“Of the several psychological types who are attracted to police work, one of them, which loves power, authority, action, should be screened out. Police should all have video running when in action, period for the protection of the public and themselves. Its a no brainer. Some police unions, Boston for example have blocked that. Why? Some of the things police forces do could be split off and handed to people who are not carrying guns.”
What has stopped you from doing all these things decades ago ?
I have advocated for all of these and more for decades, and you ignored me.
That said I will note that policing is one of the most critical needs of these communities – much more than the rest of the country. So long as crime is so much higher than elsewhere all the other problems of these communities will remain.
I beleive that we can do better in our policing. I agree with your suggestions – and have many more.
But we must not diminish the effectiveness of the police in the process.
NYPD disbanded the infamous “anti-crime” unit. This is the “Stop & Frisk” unit.
Inarguably their targets were minorities.
Inarguably they were effective. They reduced violent crime in minority communites by 600% in a decade. They reduced murders dramatically.
Since disbanding violent crime has risen 358%
So you tell me – do you disband the “anti-crime” unit – and watch murders and rapes spike ?
You want to reform the police – fine.
But lets accept the world is not perfect – and you may not be able to get your warm and fuzzy police without an increase in violent crime.
So if you have to weigh a more racist beligerant police force against higher crime – what do you chose ?
“Most of all, I would address inner city dystopian poverty”
Go ahead – do anything you want to address poverty – with your own money.
The rest of us are not interested in paying for the mistakes you have made.
Blacks want reparations for slavery. I want reparations from you for the failed social programs you have force the rest of us to pay for .
“with a giant CETA type program to teach job skills while rebuilding the infrastructure of the inner cities”
You burned it down – you rebuild it.
“as well as that in areas of rural poverty. I would cheerfully spend a trillion, yes a trillion, on that.”
We have no doubt you would.
And you would not give a shit that it did no good.
It is the great society programs that destroyed poor black families.
Why should we give you a trillion dollars to do it again ?
Further I would suggest reading some literature on providing wells in Africa and other poor countries.
Nothing is more beneficial to a poor village than a well with clean water.
Assorted charities and NGO’s have been drilling wells in poor villages throughout the world.
This is an easy thing to do, and very cheap. But near universally within two years the wells have failed and the villages went back to their old ways.
NGO’s and charities have studied this for decades – in the past 40 years we have wasted $1T in charity in Africa to no effect.
Money does not end poverty. Infrastructure does not end poverty.
It is absolutely critical to get people to solve poverty themselves or it does not get solved.
First charities and NGO’s found that no matter what the cheapest way to drill a well was, it was necescary to create the well using technology available to the village. If they did not,
the effect was very short term.
But even switching to technology that was within the ability of these villages was insufficient.
What was ultimately found to work was to get the village to decide to dig wells themselves.
They had to choose to dig the well, do the planning, and do the work.
In the end the charities provided almost nothing.
Ending poverty is quite cheap. What it is not is easy.
There is very little you can do to “help” people out of poverty.
The most fundimental things you need to do is provide “the rule of law”
End crime – end the very chaos and anarchy that we are seeing right now.
Those make thing worse not better.
Regardless you can not solve other peoples problems for them.
The focal point of racial strife in this country today is NOT the rural south – it is blue urban mostly northern cities that have decades of mismanagement by the left.
We can debate civil war statues – a plurality of americans think they should remain.
I do not care much. Though I tend to agree with Macron. It is our history, and for good or evil it needs to stay.
But these statues are not the problem.
There is a reason that nearly all the statues being attacked are people like Lincoln, Jefferson, Columbus. Because these riots are with few exceptions not happening in the rural confederacy. They are happening in the urban north.
Minority blacks in Detriot or NYC are not having Nathan Forest rubbed in their faces.
The angry young men sewing Chaos and anarchy are not within a 1000 miles of an actual confederate monument.
This is more of the Robby nonsense – people ranting about the systemic racism that is just not part of their actual lives.
“We all have pride in membership in groups and greater suspicion of those in the outgroup.
That is natural human behavior.”
Here is the one part of your rant that I agree with.
Good, then this debate should be over.
The strength of human ingroup bonding and outgroup suspicion will change as it has less valuable.
And as nations – with the US by far at the lead become more mixed.
The evidence already indicates that racial preferences have become very weak in most of the US and are small impediment to most minorities.
I have been watching Henry Louis Gates series in genealogies. And was surprised by one of the facts he noted. US racial and cultural intermixing was mostly fairly low until after WWII,
Then in the 50’s and 60’s that changed and it has every since. While Racial/Cultural intermixing occured prior to that -it was extremely rare. Today it is almost the norm.
Look at the Trump’s, Trump has Scotch and German ancestors – those two did not come together until the mid 20th century in the US – you do not see much cross European mixing outside the US. But Trump’s more immediate family is mixed with eastern Europeans and Jews. Again something that does not happen outside the US. Even though the Jews migrated throughout Europe they had very little mixing with Europeans until they came to the US. Yet of all the people Gates featured on his show – a substantial portion had Jewish ancestors – and that mixing occurred inside the US.
Donald Trump’s grand parents – and probably his parents were almost certainly anti-semites, and yet today Trump’s family is strongly Jewish.
“And being tribal is likewise no longer of the same benefit it was over tens of thousands of years or more.”
I would agree – but your opinion and mine are irrelevant.
If our tribalism has diminished value, then over time we will see that Tribalism fade on its own.
That strongly appears to be happening – though nearly exclusively in the anglosphere and lead by the US.
In most of the rest of the world tribalism and racism are nearly as strong as ever.
There are indications that is begining to change in europe – though mostly in the late 20th and early 21st century and primarily driven by falling birth rates of whites. Europe has been importing large numbers of foreigners to supliment its labor force for about 50 years,
and as a result now has proportions of minorities that are causing european racist to be exposed.
Elsewhere in the world racial and cultural divisions are nearly as rigid as ever.
You left wingnuts rant about the purported horrible past of the US.
While the american melting pot has moved much slower than claimed – it is still true.
No nation on the world is as diverse as the US. No nation is as mixed.
No nation will be as mixed in the near future.
Our past problems with slavery and natives are not unique. Slavery was common throughout the world – and though the US was not the first western country to end it – we did so early. Legal slavery existed in much of the world well into the 20th century. And it still exists throughout the world illegally.
There is pretty much no nation in the world without ethnic strife, genocide, in its past.
Often quite recently. The Aremenian Genocide took place in Turkey in the early 20th century.
Much of europe has had deep seated and often genocidal conflicts – resulting either from Genghis Khan or the Moors overrunning large parts of Europe.
The Balkans conflict in Clinton’s term as well as that in Rwanda were racial and ethnic.
Most armed conflict in the last 50 years is the result of hundreds of years of ethnic conflict.
The US is far ahead of the world in weakening racism and tribalism
“You left wingnuts rant about the purported horrible past of the US.”
OK Dave, So I guess that Slavery and the Genocide of the native Americans, the lynchings, the apartheid, were not horrible in your universe? Funny people you libertarians.
And only “left wing nuts” care about these “purported” things? Good thing we did care, that is how they changed. Only I really do not think that the Union Army was made of left wing nuts. However, the civil rights activists of the 50s and 60s really Were left wing nuts, and brave ones, at least in the view of their regressive ideological opponents, those attempting to preserve their White power/black misery system. So lets hear it for left wing nuts!
“No nation on the world is as diverse as the US. No nation is as mixed.”
You make a huge number of strong claims with nothing to back them up, the thing you accuse me of. Sources? I am pretty sure that the USSR had as many or more ethnic groups, hundreds of them. But I don’t see the relevance in any case. This has what to do with racism? Germans marrying Scots is your example? Can you try to work in the price of figs in Argentina on some angle? You are full of crap and looking for every distraction you can find.
Further, even if you could prove all your assertions, which I strongly doubt, its not an excuse for the destructive nonsense that still goes on. We are America. We have our Constitution, our Democracy. What we do should be compared to what we could do, and we are far away from how things should be in many areas regarding race.
>“You left wingnuts rant about the purported horrible past of the US.”
“OK Dave, So I guess that Slavery and the Genocide of the native Americans, the lynchings, the apartheid, were not horrible in your universe? Funny people you libertarians.”
Nope – more of this if someone does not accept that the problem you have fixated on for the moment, then you are vile and repugnant.
Apartheid was South Africa, not the US.
Slavery existed accross most of the world at that time – however evil the US was, it was not uniquely evil.
There were 10M africans brought here as Slaves.
The Nazi’s enslaved as many people mostly jews, and ultimately murdered them.
Slavery does not reach the level of horror of the holocaust.
Pol Pot murdered 2M of his own people in a few years.
the Hutu murdered nearly 1M Tutsi in a few weeks in Rwanda.
Legal Slavery existed in Brazil into the 1980’s.
According to the Lynching Museum there were just over 8000 lynchings in the US over approximately a century. That is horrible. It is about 1/2 the total Homocides in the US last year. It is about the same as the number of blacks killed by blacks each year.
If you want me to look to improving the world – I am going to look at real problems now, not the death or enslavement of someones 8th great grand parent. There is no one still alive who was a slave. There are few if any people alive whose grand parents were slaves.
There are few people who know someone who knows someone who was lynched.
I have distant relatives who died fighting against slavery during the Civil War.
Do I get reparations ?
We know that native americans completely wiped out cultures and races that preceded them such as the anasazi.
Ghengis Khan swept from asia across europe as far as turkey and killed 5% of the population of the earth.
In the early 1800’s the Zulu massacred 1-2M people when they invaded south africa.
“And only “left wing nuts” care about these “purported” things? Good thing we did care,”
No YOU did not. You had absolutely nothing to do with ending any of this.
Others – like my 5th great grandfather ended those almost 200 years ago.
“Only I really do not think that the Union Army was made of left wing nuts.”
Nope – it is left wingnuts still trying to refight the civil war and punish there own long dead 8th great granparents for crimes against possible their own 7th great grand parents.
“However, the civil rights activists of the 50s and 60s really Were left wing nuts”
No they were actual liberals. You are illiberal. Not the same.
“and brave ones, at least in the view of their regressive ideological opponents, those attempting to preserve their White power/black misery system.”
That would be white southern progressive democrats.
“So lets hear it for left wing nuts!” who have done NOTHING.
progrssive democrat Woodrow willson was possibly the most racist president we have ever had.
Both Theodore and franklin Roosevelt have strong tries to other racist democrat progressives such as Grant Madison
Racist Eugenics was the rage among progressive democrats – including planned parenthood and was important even in those nordic social democracies into the 1970’s
Civil rights legislation was sponsored by republicans and opposed by progressive democrats through 1957.
Even the CRA and VRA were passed primarily by republicans.
Milton Friedman had an intergrated office years before the CRA.
And I would note that the person who brought New Yorks murder rate down to a fraction of what it was saving thousands of black lives and restoring the rule of law so that blacks could get themselves out of poverty – Rudy Giuliani.
>“No nation on the world is as diverse as the US. No nation is as mixed.”
“You make a huge number of strong claims with nothing to back them up, the thing you accuse me of. Sources?”
I do not owe you any of these. I have a long record of honesty and accuracy – you don’t.
I have told you repeatedly that make false accusations comes at a cost.
You have no integrity.
“I am pretty sure that the USSR had as many or more ethnic groups, hundreds of them.”
China has hundreds of racial minorities – my daughter is one of those. They make up a tiny fraction of the population.
Produce data on significant racial diversity in the USSR.
BTW do they still exist ?
“But I don’t see the relevance in any case. This has what to do with racism? Germans marrying Scots is your example? Can you try to work in the price of figs in Argentina on some angle? You are full of crap and looking for every distraction you can find.”
No Germans Marrying Scotts was not my example – it was one of many examples.
Again I would refer you to Henry Gates PBS series on geneology.
Even Martha Stewart turned out to be half jewish. and Samuel L Jackson had ancestors that fought in the american revolution.
Almost no american that Gates has done was close to pure.
Most blacks were only about 50% black. and most “Whites” were less than 70% european.
“Further, even if you could prove all your assertions, which I strongly doubt, its not an excuse for the destructive nonsense that still goes on.”
That is right – it is the left engaged in destruction – there is no excuse for that.
“We are America. We have our Constitution”
Which you have no intention of following.
“our Democracy.”
We are not a democracy.
Democracy is the worst form of government there is.
“What we do should be compared to what we could do, and we are far away from how things should be in many areas regarding race.”
Oh, My! We are vile because we are not saints!
Go back and fix the cities you F;d up on your own you hateful hating hater.
So now the “proud boys” are merely “white chauvinist”.
Is there a reason that you can not let go of race ? I could not find race or racial supremacy anywhere in there tenets.
They identify as WESTERN chauvinists.
The only consequential influence the proud boys have is in the heads of those such as yourself.
Wow, One GOP Congressmen had a photo with McIness.
Should every congressmen that has had a photo with Farakan be tarred and feathered ?
Nation of Islam is far more consequential that Proud Boys.
There are myriads of youtube channels with far more hits for a single video than the proud boys have had on their website ever.
Democrats have congressmen that are more openly racist than Gavin McInnes.
I am not particularly interested in the Proud Boys. I deliberately hedged when challenging you about them because it was entirely possible that they would prove to be openly white supremacist. And you have not done your research very well as McIness admits to past racist comments over a decade ago and claims he has changed.
The one area in which Proud Boys is openly violent is that they have admitted that they seek our violent confrontations with Antifa.
And my answer to that is “they deserve each other”.
But I did go after you on Proud Boys and Limbaugh deliberately.
You are claiming the right much more than the left is racist.
And you have failed at that case.
I am not sure of the politics of the proud boys – may of these purportedly extreme right groups are very socialist in nature.
But Limbaugh is unarguably a significant voice on the right.
Regardless, you have failed in any argument to demonstrate that the proud boys are especially racist, or meaningful.
You have utterly failed to demonstrate Limbaugh is racist.
I am not a supporter of either of these. But that does not mean that I get to rant that they are racist. That it is moral to do so.
I do not care about your personal self criticism about your inconsequential racism.
If it floats your boats to participate in this parody of the cultural revolution – as mostly white teens and young adults tear down statues and you publicly humiliate your self for your miniscule racisms – go at it.
I am far more interested in making improvements of consequence.
Minorities in this country do not need any of the crap the left is selling them.
They do not need an end to your whimpy racism.
They need a decent education system. The Historically Black Colleges, the Jim Crow segreated schools did a better job of educating blacks than our blue city schools – which fail at unbelievable expense.
The 2018 FL election was tipped to the GOP by 300,000 single black mothers who voted to preserve the charter schools that gave their kids the only hope of a better future.
Where are democrats on solutions that actually work ?
Better Education is the single most important thing that minorities need.
Not more money – the amount spent on minority education in our deep blue cities is greater – often several times greater than the cost of the elite private boarding schools of the uber rich.
The next big problem that minorities face is crime. Absolutely there is much wrong with modern policing. But Crime in minority cities is more than twice as high as the rest of the country and it is a major factor in trapping the poor in poverty.
Abolishing and defunding the police are about the worst things that could happen to minorities.
In the past few weeks 1/2 billion dollars in damage has been done to minority communities.
The good news is that is less than post Rodney King and definitely less than the 1968 Summer of rage. The bad news is that history tells us that recovery from rioting and looting and arson in minority communities takes decades.
It is too late now, but the national guard should have been called in immediately after Floyd died. Protestors should have been marshalled into public squares and away from residential and commercial areas.
Walmart and Target have already announced they are not reopening stores that were destroyed.
It takes a big box store about 10 years to recover from the destruction of its inventory.
Profits on the sale of goods are about 1.5%. And that does not account for the loss of the store itself.
There is no reason to reopen a store in a place this could happen again in a few years.
Smaller stores that have been in these communities forever are taking their insurance checks and leaving.
These are real problems in minority communities – and you and BLM are fixated on statues.
Regardless, the only evidence I see of systemic racism in this entire country is in the oppression of minorities that occurs in democrat controlled cities and states.
I do not know if Rush Limbaugh is racist.
But there is little doubt that democrats are systemically racist.
Prior to C19 and these Riots racism was not on the top ten list of issues that blacks were concerned about.
“You can live in your universe where racism causes little harm in the US and I will live in mine where it is still very poisonous and destructive, most especially to the black population. The actual truth is complex and lies in the middle depending on the chosen statistic.”
These are not cherry picked. They are real.
Though even more dramatic they are the same as the properly done statistical analysis of policing.
You are in science, you purportedly have a grasp of statistical analysis. You hopefully understand that we do not have the ability to do controlled experiments to determine the impact of racism or education or crime. That we have to sort these our of real world data rather than controlled experiments.
That the real world is messy and that there are dozens of factors that determine the success of failure of a person.
We use statistical regressions as the means to sort out the influence of each of many variables in a complex system. That statistical techniques tell us both the magnitude of the influence of each variable, and the probability that result is meaningful.
When we look at the factors that determine success – especially for those at the bottom.
Race has a low magnitude and a low statistical significance.
Things like intact families
Completing high school
avoiding crime
avoiding pregnancy until you are ready to support a family.
Getting a job – even a crappy one, and developing work habits.
And a long list of others that have nothing to do with race were the strongest predictors of outcome.
That poor whites, latino’s asians, and blacks who had these overwhelmingly succeeded and those that did not, overwhelmingly failed.
So if you wish to go on pretending that the greatest problem in this country is systemic racism or the enslavement of a few million people two centuries ago.
Then you bear the responsibility for the mess you have made.
“The actual truth is complex and lies in the middle depending on the chosen statistic.”
No it is not.
There is no “chosen” statistic.
The data is out there for all of us. You can get the data and do the regressions yourself if you want.
There are those who have done so well, and those who have done so badly.
Though the big problem is that those on the left do so shallowly.
Crime in urban poor areas is at the very least 200% higher than elsewhere – in many places it is as much as 800% higher. Nor is this limited to minor crimes. Violent crimes – rapes, murders are far higher.
You can not look at any statistic related to policing without adjusting for the fact that the police deal with crime – they go where the crime is.
If the crime is disproportionately in poor minority neighboorhoods – that is where the police will be, that is where the arrests will be, that is where the shootings will be.
The FACTS are oblivious of politics. They do not care about skin color or political party.
We know where our problems are – and racism is very low among them.
We have problems in policing, but there is no statistical signal of systemic racism in policing.
There are a few – but very few areas where policing statistics show a statistically significant racial signal – one of the most significant is sentencing – and that is a judicial issue not a policing one.
Regardless “systemic racism” requires finding a statistical signal in MOST policing statistics. And that is not present.
I would further argue that even if our policing was systemically racist, that crime rates are a far more important problem for black communities that racist policing.
We are seeing historic spikes in violent crime in minority urban areas.
More innocent black children have been accidentally killed in the past few weeks than all the police killings of unarmed blacks in 2019
The left claims to be for science – but only if the results confirm their ideology.
That is not science – it is religion.
If you want to fix problems you need to address their real causes, not chase after snipes.
Continuing to fixate on racism for political gain is essentially racism.
You buy minority votes but you do not solve their problems – you make them worse.
“Go out into the areas where blacks live and give your speech to them.”
I lived in atlanta for several years. I did not have much money and I rode the bus all the time.
Atlanta at the time was something like 80% black (it is less now) and it was the murder capital of the country.
I lived in Troy NY for several years – also a poor minority community. I lived in an apartment in a slum – because that is what I could afford.
When I got married my first home was in the worst part of my city – and my wife and I lived there for 7 years.
I do not need to preach to minorities – they know what their problems are. They know what they need.
Look at these protests – these are kids – some black some white, who are entirely clueless.
As I told you in Florida Gillium lost to DeSantis – because 300K poor single back women voted for their kids education.
Have you actually been to Philly or Baltimore ? I doubt it.
Regardless, those are messes YOU made.
Clean them up.
And quit accusing those of us who had no role in making them of being responsible for the mess YOU made.
I’ll try to reply to Roby and the rest of the gang later today (my son is keeping me busy), but meanwhile, here’s an excellent article that explains why some of us (and not just racists, Proud Boys, crypto-fascists and other miscreants) might be opposed to the current national uprising.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/andrew-sullivan-you-say-you-want-a-revolution.html
This thread got very long and started with Ron who then gets every comment made on it as a reply to him. So I am go8ing to respond to you Priscilla in fresh thread.
“Call everyone a racist if that makes you feel superior and if it assuages your white guilt, but you are simply falling for the narrative that nothing has changed for blacks since the Jim Crow days, and that is patently false, not to mention ridiculous.”
That is not an argument I made.
“It’s dangerous to foment racial strife and violence, simply so that the Democrats can regain power, but that’s where we are. ”
I am pretty sure that if you try to explain exactly how the democrats are going to “regain power through violence and racial strife” in a country that leans slightly to the right and has a black population of 12%, most of whom do NOT want their neighborhoods burned down, you will see how absurd your claim is. This country is not politically set up to reward the Dems for fomenting racial violence. That is a clear loser. We are still a country with a very pronounced white majority, and the GOP plays to their fears, which has been a successful tactic because of the numbers.
I do not think that all republicans are terrible racists, any more than I think that all republicans are against gun control, any abortion, or doing something about climate change. Ive seen the polls. There are majorities of GOP voters with perfectly sensible (to my ideology) views on many things. The problem is that the GOP voters who have much more regressive views manage to leverage their votes to dominate, the NRA being a great example, so the final flavor of the GOP is far to the right of its average voter.
In any case, You are missing the point of everything I said, much of it you have got backwards.
“The Police Reform bill proposed by GOP Senator Tim Scott, was blocked by the Dems, merely because Scott is a black man, and Democrats didn’t want anything good to be attributed to him.”
Good grief, are we really in first grade? That argument is worthy of a 6 year old. Is it possible that the bill was vetoed for reasons that the Dems actually thought it was very insufficient?
Priscilla, Rick made two posts with the 2nd following nearly immediately after the 1st by TNM standards. Both are on the same situation, race and the reaction to police killing blacks. Had I decided not to comment which I nearly did you all could have had a conservative love fest.
I don’t like Ricks views on race, I consider him oblivious to the reality of blacks in America and very white aggrieved. When he writes with as much passion about the problems of Black people as he does about the problems of statues of White people, well that will be great. Black people in this country, as a group, still have a very shitty deal in many ways, all improvements notwithstanding.
“Call everyone a racist if that makes you feel superior and if it assuages your white guilt, but you are simply falling for the narrative that nothing has changed for blacks since the Jim Crow days, and that is patently false, not to mention ridiculous.”
>That is not an argument I made.
Correct, it is an argument against you.
Have things improved for minorities ? Yes, or No ?
“I am pretty sure that if you try to explain exactly how the democrats are going to “regain power through violence and racial strife” in a country that leans slightly to the right and has a black population of 12%, most of whom do NOT want their neighborhoods burned down, you will see how absurd your claim is. This country is not politically set up to reward the Dems for fomenting racial violence. That is a clear loser.”
Correct. I expect that November is going to be a blood bath for Dems.
Especially in state government.
“We are still a country with a very pronounced white majority, and the GOP plays to their fears, which has been a successful tactic because of the numbers.”
More leftist race baiting. Right, republicans are playing to the fears of white voters ?
So deregulation and limited govenrment are about white fears of black power ?
So getting out of endless foreign wars – something that republicans are returning to as a value – despite the messes of the Bushes. That is about fear of minorty power ?
Every single racial group mas majority support for the wall, for limited immigration, for trade barriers ?
I do not agree with some of those positions – but pretending they are about race fear is nonsense.
“Good grief, are we really in first grade? That argument is worthy of a 6 year old. Is it possible that the bill was vetoed for reasons that the Dems actually thought it was very insufficient?”
Bunk.
First a lesson in federalism and the constitution that you should have grasped in the past year.
There is no federal police power.
Public health is the domain of the states.
Next.
The most important thing we need to reform with respect to policing is ending qualified immunity. Get rid of that and everything else will fix itself. Neither party stepped up to the plate on that.
Beyond that – the federal government provides states with a small amount of money for policing. That has entirely bad results. Regardless, that money is the extent of federal control of policing.
I really do not care much about the Scott bill or the democrat bill. They are both irrelevant and ineffective.
But there is ZERO difference in them symbolicly – they both fail to do anything significant beyond say “we fell your pain”
The reasons for tanking the Scott bill were political.
The same reasons that democrats can not reach a deal on immigration.
It is also why they did not solve the immigration problem when Obama was president.
They do not want the problem solved. They want to preserve it as a political issue.
“Priscilla, Rick made two posts with the 2nd following nearly immediately after the 1st by TNM standards. Both are on the same situation, race and the reaction to police killing blacks. Had I decided not to comment which I nearly did you all could have had a conservative love fest.”
You have not offered any solutions to anything.
“I don’t like Ricks views on race, I consider him oblivious to the reality of blacks in America and very white aggrieved. ”
The vast majority of americans live in places where crime is low, education is better, families are the norm.
Why exactly is it that the vast majority of this country should be fixated on the incestuous policing and race problems of a small bubble of the US ?
Why shouldn’t Rick and the rest of us be pissed because YOU and your party has failed and made problems you promised to solve and have claimed for decades to be able to do so, worse ?
This is the BS we get from the left all the time.
You demand copious amounts of money to solve problems that have little to do with most of us. Instead of fixing things – you make them worse, and then you blame YOUR bad outcome on the rest of us.
Go fix the problems you made.
As I said before – absolutely BLM should be lining up democrats and making them prostrate themselves for their failures.
But this is your problem. The Proud Boys did not create this problem. Limbaugh did not create this problem. the KKK did not create this problem.
Democrats created this problem.
FIX IT – YOURSELVES, and leave the rest of us out of it.
You claim that the republicans are using race as a political strategy.
I do not see that.
But I do see that the majority of people in this country should see the mess democrats have made and say – NOT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD!!
That is a pretty rational position.
“But I do see that the majority of people in this country should see the mess democrats have made and say – NOT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD!!”
According to 538 the generic composite polling data shows the democrats with a 48.6 to 40.7 congressional lead. The 538 composite generic house polling was dead on in 2018 mid terms, where the democrats if I remember won the nationwide popular vote for the House of Representatives by 8.6 percentage points and picked up 40 seats. Looks like most people have not followed your logic, in 2018 and are not set to follow it now.
I seem to remember you saying that you yourself vote democratic in the local and state races. I guess even you don’t follow your own logic.
Funny man.
trump, the law and order guy, the open the economy back up and COVID is under control guy, has fallen quite a few points since the death of George Floyd, 538 has him at his highest disapproval level since 2017, and he is 15.5 net underwater. He is now losing to Biden by more than 9 points according to 538. Now I am not saying Biden has this in the bag, but trump is doing quite badly as of today, running with all the themes you believe are winners. Your philosophy is not doing well with the voters at present.
538 was still giving Clinton a 90% chance of winning at 9pm election night.
I have zero interest in 538.
Biden’s polls are once again dropping.
One of the few pollsters to get the swing states right in 2016, says that Trump is running atleast 1pt better than in 2016.
He also says that in 2016 there was atleast a 2% “bradley effect” – voters who voted for Trump but would not tell pollsters they were going to.
He says the toxic environment democrats have created in the past 4 years has doubled that.
He said if the Election was today – Trump would win the swings states by margins larger than in 2016.
We have seen 2 special elections in the past month with democrats facing republicans.
One was 1 week ago in NY.
In CA25 there was a 13pt swing to republicans since 2018, and even an 5pt gain from 2016 when republicans won CA25
The NY district was even more lopsided. There was about a 25pt swing since 2018.
Both were in the midst of C19 and the NY district was in the midst of the riots.
I do not know what will happen in november – but I do not trust you or 538 – for good reason.
Trump’s approval rate today is 2pts higher than Obama’s was at the end of June in 2012.
I am still predicting a red wave.
“I seem to remember you saying that you yourself vote democratic in the local and state races.”
On occasion. I vote for the best candidate.
“I guess even you don’t follow your own logic.”
Does not follow.
“trump, the law and order guy”
He is being attacked on the right, now for NOT pushing law and order.
“the open the economy back up and COVID is under control guy,”
Thus far the best results have STILL been those places that DID NOT shutdown their economy.
The US deaths/million is still lower than most of europe.
As is the CFR
“has fallen quite a few points since the death of George Floyd,”
For the past 6 months Polls have been self contradictory – national Polls are way out of sync with state polls and even state polls are not tracking actual election results.
“538”
538 Really ?
RCP has Trump at 42, his low was 37.
RDT has Trump at 47, Obama was at 46 on this date in 2012.
“15.5 net underwater.”
Obama was underwater about the same.
“Now I am not saying Biden has this in the bag”
Biden is not winning.
You can engage in wishful thinking. You can pray to the polling gods.
But the polsters who got 2016 right are saying Trump would beat Biden by more than Clinton if the election was held today.
The good news for D’s is that Biden is less hated than Clinton.
The bad news is that his support is actually weaker.
Trump can absolutely count on almost 90% of his support.
Biden can not count on 50% of his.
“but trump is doing quite badly as of today, running with all the themes you believe are winners. Your philosophy is not doing well with the voters at present.”
Not my philosphy – it is theirs.
Biden has not merely lost the law enforcement vote he has sold it almost in its entirety to Trump. There are 900K law enforcement in the US, Add their families and close friends, add other first responders. and consider the fact that most of these people live in the suburbs – the critical demographic.
I suspect that some of the current weakness in Trump’s polls is anger among the law an order types that are going to vote and not going to vote for Biden.
They will get over their anger at Trump when they hit the election booth – and they vote.
Gun sales FOR THE YEAR are up 48%. 40% of buyers are NEW buyers. of those 40% are WOMEN.
6.5M background checks in 2020.
Do you think people buying guns are voting for Biden ?
What about the women buying there first gun ?
I noted the NY and CA25 special elections – are you saying those are flukes ?
Worse for D’s is that in primaries left extremists are slaughtering moderate dems.
We are going to have the most polarized congress ever.
And Democrats are going to come to the election with that in November.
The polls do not concern me.
But you should be concerned.
Without me wandering into this conservative gripe session there would just be, well, a conservative gripe session, using cherry picked conservative universe “facts” (like the ones Dave provided showing that the Swedes are doing well with their approach to COVID, when they are decidedly Not doing well, do not have anything close to herd immunity and have lost a lot of people who would otherwise be alive).
I am about burned out on this. But I will leave TNM with this link. I don’t believe it tells a completely balanced or objective story, but it is factually correct and I agree with its basic idea.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-republican-choice/
“using cherry picked conservative universe “facts” (like the ones Dave provided showing that the Swedes are doing well with their approach to COVID when they are decidedly Not doing well,”
Belgium. UK Spain, Italy all have higher death rates.
That is not cherry picking. It is just sorting countries by death rate.
“do not have anything close to herd immunity”
“and have lost a lot of people who would otherwise be alive).”
Not as a result of policy.
Sweden had a higher death rate than other nordic countries because they have radically different elder care – fewer very large nursing homes – like the US.
Other nordic countries have more and smaller elder care units.
The swedes admit they screwed up early on and allowed C19 to get into their NH’s.
They have solved that problem and since things are improving.
I do not know if Sweden has reached Herd Immunity.
It does not matter much. Infections will continue – there and here until that happens.
At the moment the US has the largest percent of confirmed cases per million of population.
Either the US is testing better than the rest of the world or we might be closest to immunity.
I honestly do not understand why you wish to continue to argue about the election.
You may be right, you may be wrong, regardless lost will change in the next 4 months.
OK reading all the “he is racists”, “they are racist” and oin and on no one is getting anywhere.
So someone please post a link to information that is not New York times, fox News, or any of the other alphabet news agencies or those with a political agenda, but something form a sociology study or something like that, explaining why all the problems in this country with race seems to be centered in northern and western democrat run cities.
Studies might be nice – but you have made an observation that seems to be obviously correct.
Today we are not seeing things come apart in Selma or montgomery or birmingham.
we are seeing it in LA and Seattle and NYC and Chicago, and …
Excellent book review by Matt Taibbi – a liberal I love, exposing the recialist nonsense of the moment.
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility
I used to hate Taibbi. I don’t recall him being so insightful. But, lately, I’ve been really liking his articles. This one was very good. (Of course, the whole idea of white fragility is idiotic, lol)
Matt Taibbi has become a pretty amazing voice of sanity coming from the left.
I am not sure when this started – but it is not recent.
I really don’t know how to reply to Roby’s accusations other than to insist that my columns on race issues are balanced between sympathy for black victims and skepticism about the distorted BLM narrative that blacks are somehow uniquely targeted for injustice and even murder. I can’t see anything immoderate about this:
“We should acknowledge that black people have been victimized throughout much of our history, and that they still suffer from ugly vestiges of racism today, without demonizing white people and branding all of American history as an endless chronicle of oppression.
“In an ideal world, the aim of black progress would be full equality, not special treatment based on skin color. And the conversation on race would be a two-way street – a conversation between equals.”
That pretty much sums up my position. You can’t expect me to join the woke team and rail against historical personages like Washington and Grant for the few flaws in their otherwise admirable legacies. I’m aware that some of my observations are too blunt for current sensibilities; I cal
Premature post. (I hate that we can’t edit our comments.) Anyway, yes — some of my observations are too blunt for current sensibilities; I’m not afraid to call a thug a thug.
As a resident of a mixed-race neighborhood in Philadelphia, I have a ringside seat as an observer. My immediate neighborhood ranges from working class to rich, and it’s probably one-third black (including wealthy blacks). Just a few blocks away, on the other side of Germantown Avenue, is a solidly black “inner city” neighborhood. I actually have a few friends on that side of the avenue. We like each other, and I’ve helped them out by giving them work (along with an occasional handout), but the prevailing culture there is a recipe for disaster.
I remember Roby taking issue with my theory that blacks tend to be more right-brained than whites: more intuitive, expressive and impulsive; less concerned about strategy and consequences of actions. It’s a generalization, of course (I’m sure the wealthy blacks in my neighborhood are more left-brained), but I’ve found it to hold up under sustained observation.
Western society rewards left-brain skills, and our schools are structured to prioritize left-brain learning. Any wonder that so many black kids drop out? I’d love to see schools develop new teaching methods based on their learning style. It won’t happen, of course, because we’re not allowed to admit any differences between races. So I suspect the status quo will prevail: more black poverty, more protests and mayhem, more polarization. That’s America in the 21st century.
What ? You think you can explain your way out of being an oppressor ?
Your White, your male – your a racist.
You think the left will allow the existance of a moderate position ?
You have black freinds – clearly you are racist.
I do not know that I agree with your theory.
I also do not care. We must be free to discuss propositions that might be unpleasant, or we are not free.
You can accuse nature of racism all you want – it does not care.
Can we explore the correlation of race with IQ, Violence, physical skills, ….
Without being labeled racist ?
Not today.
There are problems we can not fix, because we are not allowed to explore all the possible causes.
I do not think I agree with your left brain/right brain hypothesis.
But I would note something related. The apogee of Human development has been in different places in the world at different times.
Since the end of the middle ages it has been in the west.
Our principles, and values and philosophy have developed successively in different parts of the world. But the last great advances occured in the west.
Western law, philosophy, economics are the current apogee of humanity.
Tearing that down makes us worse not better.
Studies have shown that women are more right brained than left brained men. That is why women learn differently than men.
And I can attest to this difference. When I taught youth soccer, I could tell the girls what to do with a play or with a certain skill. They learned more from verbal commands. To teach the boys, they learned quicker if they were shown that same information and they see it in games. The boys learned from tapes of soccer games.
Rick,
Get used to it. If you are not the victim – then you must be the oppressor.
Rick taking a moderate position is not acceptable to many. I have said to others that I do not believe the answer to reducing racism can come from Washington D.C. Especially in divided times like this. If one wearing a mask makes them liberals while this not wearing a mask is a sign of conservatism, Washington will never solve the race issue.
And when looking back to the 60’s, all the gains black Americans made was not because of Washington. It was because they had one fantastic leader that knew how to mobilize the black communities, especially in the south, getting church leaders, local leaders and others marching in peaceful demonstrations that finally resulted in the civil reights legislation. Looking at what is happening in America today, I have no proof and can not support this with and studies, but I believe that racism is more prevalent in the north today than in the south because of MLK. That is not to say that racism does not exist in the south, it does, but looking at the current situation, almost every instance of rioting and demonstrations have occurred in the north and west due to some racist action in those cities. Can the south really hide police brutality and citizen racism that much better than the north? I don’t think so.
But my point is that the black community needs one voice as their leader. one voice of carrying a vast majority of blacks into peaceful demonstrations, ones where the blacks make sure anyone that wants to make trouble are stopped immediately, And that leader needs to mobalize the local communities to begin workling with local government to make changes needed in their communities, not some idiot from Washington making a law and forcing it down onto “Pea Creek, Montana” as well as Los Angeles. What works one place most likely will not work someplace else.
We have civil rights laws. Each community needs to find ways of following those and enforcing them. It can not come from Washington.
This is all the perfect example of the nonsense of progressive government.
Racism is NOT a consequential problem, and aside from getting racism out of government it was never a government problem.
We have this same nonsense every time there is a mass shooting and we wigg out over gun control.
Guns too are not a consequential problem.
The left always fixates on things that will make people feel good but not accomplish anything of consequence.
“I remember Roby taking issue with my theory that blacks tend to be more right-brained than whites: more intuitive, expressive and impulsive; less concerned about strategy and consequences of actions.”
I cannot positively deny that I took issue, but its not really the kind of statement I would take issue with. My Biology training had a very large genetic component. Blacks are 98% of the running backs in the NFL. As well they are almost as a high percentage of wide receivers and cornerbacks. The races are different, by definition. Charles Murrey has been severely treated for saying that in one small part of one of his books. Its absurd to deny that the races are different. But I totally understand why people are afraid of the that statement, although its true.
Rick you and I both hate PC. But I think that maybe you hate it so much that you have lost track of the fact that PC is the wrong way of fighting a very real problem. If I am not mis-quoting you, there are instances on TNM where you have asked the question of why oh why blacks feel like African-Americans and not simply Americans. If I have that quote basically correct, in my universe I cannot understand why any intelligent good hearted soul would Not understand that black have such a history in America and such a present, that they feel like their own separate group very often. And Bitterly so.
I am going post an article in another post about Tim Scott and his many, many traffic stops. I am utterly tired of the idea that everything is hunky dory for blacks in America and that they are mostly just imagining that they are treated worse, especially by the police. Well a good statistical analysis can debunk that myth right? They have been enslaved, lynched, and endured apartheid. They absolutely were strongly discriminated against in every way including professionally and economically in my life time. They are as a result still much poorer and less successful as a group and live very often in dystopian inner cities. The cops harass them even when they are successful and working within the system. Several times a year the cops go all Rambo on some black person or group and kill them without cause and then the cops nearly always get off.
Meanwhile a notorious race baiter gets the medal of freedom at the SOTU from a race baiting POTUS.
In my universe there is nothing Fun about someone like Limbaugh. Is there anything Fun about Al Sharpton? Maybe he should get a medal of freedom at some future SOTU? How would you feel about that?
That ought to explain why blacks are angry and why “woke” whites are angry as well.
Here is a gem from your latest that really amazed me:
“Instead of fetishizing black people and granting them a blank check for every demand, “woke” whites should ask themselves whether their attitude is more patronizing than genuinely respectful. In an ideal world, the aim of black progress would be full equality, not special treatment based on skin color. And the conversation on race would be a two-way street – a conversation between equals.
Yeah, Rick that would be great. I see this sentence as the tired white grievance, those demanding blacks want special treatment, its unfair!
Oh, The War on White Statues. Now that is a real &^%$# tragedy, white statues are suffering. Excuse my sarcasm.
“Rick you and I both hate PC. But I think that maybe you hate it so much that you have lost track of the fact that PC is the wrong way of fighting a very real problem. ”
No PC is the wrong way of fighting a very fake problem.
If there was a real problem, we would not need PC, you would just directly confront the actual problem.
You used Murray as an example.
If there are no differences between races – then Murray is a racist.
If there are differences and Murray is reasonably accurately portraying them – then those attacking him are wrong.
“If I have that quote basically correct, in my universe I cannot understand why any intelligent good hearted soul would Not understand that black have such a history in America and such a present, that they feel like their own separate group very often. And Bitterly so.”
Are you black ?
If not, then quit telling us what we must understand about Blacks, and how they feel.
You do this all the time.
I doubt you live in the world of facts and logic.
You spend your time in the world of feelings – often other peoples feelings.
It is arrogant and RACIST to pretend that you know what black people feel.
“I am going post an article in another post about Tim Scott and his many, many traffic stops.”
I have not been stopped by police as frequently as Tim Scott. But I have likely been stopped far more than you. And more frequently than many blacks.
I have had good encounters with police – especially since my hair went grey. And bad ones.
I was once stopped by a police officer on a moped for not wearing a helmet.
I normally do, but in my state helmets are not necescary for mopeds.
I told the officer so, he got so angry he pulled me over, called in 2 other cars, and threatened to dismember my moped right there along the side of the road looking for drugs.
“I am utterly tired of the idea that everything is hunky dory for blacks in America and that they are mostly just imagining that they are treated worse, especially by the police.”
People who live in high crime neighborhoods have far more encounters with the police.
“Well a good statistical analysis can debunk that myth right? ”
Wrong. There are many many many statistical analysis that make it clear there are very few areas of policing where you can find an actual racial signal after regressing the data properly.
We have a very good idea of the rates of certain crimes – like murder – because the number of hidden bodies are quite small. So we know that blacks are murdered far more frequently than whites – about 4 times as much. And that both blacks and whites are most often murdered by others of the same race. There is no statistical disparity between the number of blacks murdered and the number of blacks arrested, and convicted of murder, as compared to the same statistic for whites.
I specifically used murders – because the error rate on the number of murders and the race of the victims and perpetrators is small.
But we find the same for pretty much all other crimes. Crime reports in poor neighborhoods are about 4 times that as better neighborhoods, Arrests in poor neighborhoods are about 4 times that of better neighborhoods.
There are more police encounters between blacks and police than between people in better neighborhoods and police – because the crime rate is higher and the crime reports are higher. The arrest rate is proportionate to the crime rate between better and worse neighborhoods.
There is no statistically significant difference between any of the statistics regarding encounters between white police officers and black’s and between black police officers and blacks.
If you work very very hard you can find a small number of statistics where there is unexplained racial disparity – blacks tend to get more severe sentences than whites.
Part of that is because the black community leaders in the 80’s demanded greater sentences for Crack than for cocaine. That was a mistake and it is getting corrected.
But all of it is not explained by that. Still sentencing is done by judges – not police.
There is some evidence of racial bias in the judiciary.
We also have a problem because many municiplaities – Fergesson as an example, engage in policing for profit. The police are encouraged to write large numbers of nusiance tickets to raise money for the municipality. This MIGHT be arguably racist. But it is not driven by the police, it is driven by city government – almost always democrat, and usually black.
Policing for profit has a strong racial signal- but it is mostly black leaders preying on their own.
If there was systemic racism in policing, it would not be hard to find. In fact it would be in just about everything. Because “systemic racism” MUST be present everywhere – otherwise it is not systemic.
“They have been enslaved, lynched,”
No black now alive was enslaved, few if any are the children of people who were enslaved or lynched. Typically you have to go back 4-8 generations to find a relative that was enslaved or lynched.
According to the lynching museum – there were 8500 lynchings over about 100 years.
That is bad. But Pol Pot murdered 2M cambodians in a few years. The Hutu in Rwanda murdered 800000 Tutsi in about 90days.
About 1M Irish died during the great potato famine – which was caused and worsened by English maladministration of Ireland.
Genghis Khan murdered 5% of the population of the earth
The point is that bad things happen in the world. Blacks are not the only nor the most heinous of history’s victims.
“and endured apartheid.”
That would be South Africa in the 20th century NOT the US.
“They absolutely were strongly discriminated against in every way including professionally and economically in my life time.”
Possibly, but the data indicates that TODAY racism is not among the top ten reasons for the outcome of Blacks. That if people – black, white, hispanic do a few things – graduate from HS, Avoid becoming criminals. Get a job – even a crappy one, do not have children before you are capable of taking care of them. do not have children outside of marraige.
Do these and regardless of your race you have a bright future in the US.
Do not do these – and regardless of race your prospects are worse.
“They are as a result still much poorer and less successful as a group and live very often in dystopian inner cities.”
Historically the worst thing that happened to Blacks “economically” was “the great society”.
Even liberal lion Daniel Patrick Moynihan based on the data came to the conclusion that the “great society” programs destroyed the black community. That starting slowly after WWI and increasing after WWII there was a building black middle class in the US. That Johnson’s programs devestated the black middle class and destroyed the incentives for blacks to become middle class.
Prior to the Minimum Wage black unemployment was LOWER than white unemployment.
Prior to the great society programs blacks had more intact families than whites.
“The cops harass them even when they are successful and working within the system.”
Because you say so ?
“Several times a year the cops go all Rambo on some black person or group and kill them without cause and then the cops nearly always get off.”
There were 9 unarmed blacks killed by police in 2019. Of those 4 officers were prosecuted.
Of the rest the blacks were reaching for the officers gun, or phyically attacking the officer.
Micheal Brown tried to take the Officers Gun.
In the Rayshard Brooks case in Atlanta recently – everything went find until the officers attempted to Cuff Brooks who had been driving drunk, and Brooks started a fight with TWO officers and stole the taser from one. That could just as easily have been a gun.
The FACTS Robby is that your systemically racist police today does not hold water.
BUT one final fact. Since George Floyd the number of blacks killed by blacks in this country has DOUBLED – why ?
Because the police are too busy controlling riots to prevent crime.
Because in NYC Deblassio disbanded the Anti-Crime unit – you know the “racist” guys doing “stop and frisk” – resulting in a 358% increase in the murder rate in NYC – almost all blacks killing blacks.
Atleast 3 innocent children have been killed in increased Drive buy shootings in Chicago.
So what do you want Robby – the “Racist” police – or lots of dead black people.
“Meanwhile a notorious race baiter gets the medal of freedom at the SOTU from a race baiting POTUS.”
If you accuse ANYONE of Racism again – I am demanding that you prove it.
I will ask you to prove it, if you call Hilter racist – because you defame people at the drop of a hat.
If you defame anyone over anything – you are obligated to PROVE it.
Makinf false accusations of others is immoral – and the burden when you make an accusation is on you.
You have continued to repeat these accusations that Limbaugh is a Racist, Trump is a racist.
You have failed to prove them – or any of the defamatory statements you have made about others.
This is precisely why PC is immorality.
When you make false accusations you are engaged in the verbal equivalent of rioting.
“In my universe there is nothing Fun about someone like Limbaugh.”
Don’t care. You do not like Limbaugh – thats fine. I doubt I do either.
But I care when you accuse ANYONE of racism.
“Is there anything Fun about Al Sharpton?”
If you make false accusations about Sharpton I will go after you too.
So stick to what you can prove.
Do not care if you like him – I don’t.
“Maybe he should get a medal of freedom at some future SOTU? How would you feel about that?”
Who Knows Biden will probably give him one.
“That ought to explain why blacks are angry and why “woke” whites are angry as well.”
There are more problems with “woke” whites like you right now than Blacks.
If the 15 people that the Federal Government is seeking for tearing down statutes – 12 are white.
These idiots have not just torn down confederate statues. They have actually torn down or defaced statues of Lincoln, Grant, abolitionists.
“Woke” whites like you are by far the biggest problem.
>“Instead of fetishizing black people and granting them a blank check for every demand, >“woke” whites should ask themselves whether their attitude is more patronizing than >genuinely respectful. In an ideal world, the aim of black progress would be full equality, not >special treatment based on skin color. And the conversation on race would be a two-way >street – a conversation between equals.
Yup, Rick nails it – the big race problem today is racists like you.
Black people do not need your help.
“Yeah, Rick that would be great. I see this sentence as the tired white grievance, those demanding blacks want special treatment, its unfair!”
Aparently you can not read. Rick did not claim blacks wanted special treatment, he asserted that woke whites like you are demanding special treatment for blacks.
“Oh, The War on White Statues. Now that is a real &^%$# tragedy, white statues are suffering. Excuse my sarcasm.”
It is not a war on white statues. It is a war on western culture – and as noted it is not blacks engaged in it, it is idiots like you.
Western culture is far from perfect.
But it has given us representative govenrment, individual liberty.
Slavery was ended in the west FIRST.
The philosophy and ideas of the enlightenment put into practice have given the world the greatest improvement of standard of living that has ever occured.
Feel free to criticize – that’s fine. Washington owned Slaves. Martin Luther King was a Philanderer.
We should recognize that our hero’s have clay feet. Nothing new. In fact it is very important.
Their imperfections are reasons to beleive we can aspire to more.
But what idiot “woke” whites such as yourself are seeking – hopefully in your case unwhittingly, is not to expose their faults but to destroy the ideas the philosophy they gave us.
Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
George Orwell, 1984
Ironically this piece was written in 2016. But hey, Scott is alive right? So things are better than they once were and all this fuss by black americans and Woke whites is really very hard to understand, what on earth do these people want, when will they ever be satisfied?
“Following last week’s deadly shootings, South Carolina Sen. Tim Scott gave a deeply personal speech on the Senate floor in Washington, D.C., on Wednesday about the “deep divide” between communities and law enforcement.
While many law enforcement officers do good, he said, some do not. “I’ve experienced it myself.”
Scott revealed that he has been stopped seven times in the course of one year as an elected official. “Was I speeding sometimes? Sure. But the vast majority of the time I was pulled over for driving a new car in the wrong neighborhood or something else just as trivial.”
Obama Walks Fine Line On Race And Policing
POLITICS
Obama Walks Fine Line On Race And Policing
Scott is one of two current African-American senators, and he’s the only black Republican in the body.
LISTEN: Funeral After Funeral, Obama Calls For Healing And Action On Guns
POLITICS
LISTEN: Funeral After Funeral, Obama Calls For Healing And Action On Guns
He described several encounters with police, including one where he was stopped because the officer suspected his car was stolen. He described a similar incident that happened to his brother, a command sergeant major in the U.S. Army. And he told the story of a staffer who was “pulled over so many times here in D.C. for absolutely no reason other than driving a nice car.” The staffer eventually traded in his Chrysler for a “more obscure form of transportation” because “he was tired of being targeted.”
“I do not know many African-American men who do not have a very similar story to tell no matter their profession. No matter their income, no matter their disposition in life,” he said.
He asked his Senate colleagues to “imagine the frustration, the irritation, the sense of a loss of dignity that accompanies each of those stops.”
Scott also described walking into an office building on Capitol Hill and having an officer ask him to show his ID even though he wore a Senate pin.
While he is thankful he has not faced bodily harm, he said, “there is absolutely nothing more frustrating, more damaging to your soul than when you know you’re following the rules and being treated like you are not.”
“We must find a way to fill these cracks in the very foundation of our country,” he said.
The senator ended with a plea to his colleagues to “recognize that just because you do not feel the pain, the anguish of another, does not mean it does not exist.””
https://www.npr.org/2016/07/14/485995136/watch-black-gop-senator-says-hes-been-stopped-7-times-by-police-in-a-year
Metro DC Police:
As of 2017, about 52% of sworn personnel were black, 36% were white, 9% were Hispanic, and 4% were Asian.
And yet democrats filibustered Scott.
My parting comment. I was born on third base in many ways. The wind has been at my back all my life as long as I make an effort. Call me a “guilty liberal” for recognizing that. But I do actually feel for the people in this world who were born in a shithole with the wind constantly blowing against them. That certainly includes African Americans as a group. Am I personally guilty of causing harm? No. But when I read for example Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee as a child it hurt my soul. It was my culture that did this not so long ago. Yes, it is hard to believe that I have it so good when others have had it and still have it so much worse. Yes, I do think there is such a thing as Noblesse Oblige. Yes, I think it would be a much better world if people who belong to me basic culture acted with some degree of empathy and understanding to the descendents of the people our ancestors slaughtered and abused. No, I do not just like feeling superior.
“But I do actually feel for the people in this world who were born in a shithole with the wind constantly blowing against them. ”
My daughter was born in China, abandoned – probably to die, and spent 2 years in an orphange in China that makes the worst conditons of Blacks in the US look like heaven.
If you wish to “feel” for people who did not have the advantages you did – there are about 7B of them.
“But when I read for example Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee as a child it hurt my soul.”
So, no one is pissing on you for having feelings.
If you are inspired to do something for native americans, of for blacks, or for starving kids in Haiti – go for it no one is stopping you.
We will be praising you and wishing you well.
But you are not free to force the rest of us to chase the causes that matter to you.
I am personally active in alot of charitable activities, and contribute to others.
I have given thousands to orphans in china and other parts of the world.
I have given time and effort and money to the homeless in the US.
I do not demand that you do as I do, or that you support the causes I support.
Why do you demand that I must support yours ?
In the end – real freedom, has lifted the world. The global population has doubled since I was a kid, so has the standard of living – starvation does not exist anywhere in the world today but for politics. There is no nation that could not feed its own people – without outside help, if it could end civil wars and warlords.
All the charity every done all added together has done only a tiny fraction of the good that a small increase in individual liberty throughout the world has done in the past 50 years.
But still – give to whatever charity you want – give your time, give your money.
Persuade me if you can, and I will try to persuade you.
But if you try to FORCE me to support your charity – you do evil, not good.
No possible amount of charity can significantly improve the world.
But forced charity will make it worse.
If something tugs are your heartstrings – I have no qualms with that.
But my heartstrings are spoken for, and you can not force me to drown in your emotions, when I have a sea of my own to swim in.
“It was my culture that did this not so long ago. Yes, it is hard to believe that I have it so good when others have had it and still have it so much worse.”
About 95% of the world have it worse that you.
“Yes, I do think there is such a thing as Noblesse Oblige.”
No one is stopping you from charity.
Only forcing your views on what is important on everyone else.
“Yes, I think it would be a much better world if people who belong to me basic culture acted with some degree of empathy and understanding to the descendents of the people our ancestors slaughtered and abused. No, I do not just like feeling superior.”
Again – go for it.
But do not riot or loot or engage in arson, and do not try to FORCE the rest of us to care about what you think is important rather than whit we think is important.
Until 1965 Asian americans were barred from living outside of specific enclaves in most of the US.
Black american are the 1% of the rest of the world.
Not so long ago you were bleeding for central american immigrants.
Most of those have far shittier lives than US blacks.
Those of us who are US citizens – regardless of race have won the lottery of life.
If you were born black in Baltimore – thank god you were not born in Sudan, or Burundi or the congo.
Or Venezuela or Cuba.
“If you were born black in Baltimore – thank god you were not born in Sudan, or Burundi or the congo.
Or Venezuela or Cuba.”
Yes, you think you are very clever and have found a rationale for not giving a damn about american blacks. Honestly, you were born to be pretty much heartless and to find voluminous ways to justify it.
“Yes, you think you are very clever and have found a rationale for not giving a damn about american blacks. Honestly, you were born to be pretty much heartless and to find voluminous ways to justify it.”
Back to slander and false moral accusations.
How many meals have you bought, cooked, provided to the homeless ?
How much have you given to do something about people who are really in shitty circumstances – whether in the US or here ?
Facts do not care about your feelings.
But you even lose the empathy contest.
It is not obvious you have ever done a damn thing for anyone else.
You take credit for what government has done – which is evil.
You deserve nothing but blame for stealing, and screwing the very people you sought to help.
Please tell me what destructive force impacting black lives in the past 50 years did not come from you ?
US minorities a better off today SOLELY because of the economic growth that has more than doubled standards of living.
All the left wing nut programs have impacted minorities NEGATIVELY.
Are minority schools better today ? No they are worse. You have spent 4 times as much per student as 50 years ago – and in most every measurable way minority education is WORSE.
Minority educational outcomes are WORSE.
Black families were more intact than white ones in the 50’s. Now they have mostly been destroyed. You did that.
Absolutely Blacks should demand that “woke” whites kneel and beg forgiveness.
I expect exactly the same things from the blacks that I know as everyone else.
I expect that if they work hard and act morally they will succeed, and if they do not they will fail. I expect that of blacks. whites, asians, …..
You have lower expectations – YOU think that blacks are inferior, that the can not succeed without your help.
You are the racist.
I don’t know that Roby will be back any time soon, which is unfortunate, since he basically made some unfair and untrue accusations about Rick, and then bailed on the discussion.
My view of this is that race is really not the issue at hand here. As I pointed out earlier, BLM is not an organization that represents the average black American…it’s a Marxist organization that is connected with ActBlue, a Democrat fundraising organization, which also helps several progressive and leftist groups to raise money. Essentially, donations to BLM are processed by ActBlue, which takes a cut of the money donated. https://justthenews.com/accountability/donations-black-lives-matter-are-funnelled-through-democratic-fundraising-group
And, there have been tens of millions donated to BLM since the George Floyd riots. Corporations have made some very major donations, along with sending emails to their mailing lists and posting notices on their websites announcing that they “support the black community” through BLM. So the Democrat Party has pulled in quite a nice cut, while positioning itself to benefit politically from its connection, not only to BLM, but other leftist groups such as Antifa.
Meanwhile, if you’re looking for articles on this in the mainstream press, you won’t find them.
Bullshit. A right-wing conspiracy theory.
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/donations-to-black-lives-matter-group-dont-go-to-dnc/
But nothing will stop you from believing it and Dave will jump in and swear its the truth.
“So the Democrat Party has pulled in quite a nice cut, while positioning itself to benefit politically from its connection, not only to BLM, but other leftist groups such as Antifa.”
Just put it into words how the Dem party is going to benefits from its connection to the violent thugs of antifa. Can you do it? Can you make a coherent explanation of how Antifa helps the chances of the dem party? I say you cannot. Its bullshit.
Try to grasp the idea that BLM is actually about exactly what it seems to be about, and is not some commie organization just pretending to be working to improve the same things Tim Scott was describing in the article I posted above. Its a lot simpler than your convoluted conspiracy theories. Try to grasp the idea that there really is some actual thing that touched a majority of Americans when they watched Floyd get murdered and connected with the shit that black Americans live with. Is that so damn hard?
Or you can believe that a majority of Americans have been duped by commies and that Antifa will get the dem party into the oval office.
And you think I have lost it.
Roby, you did not even read the source that I posted. You posted a “fact check” of something that the article did not allege.
ActBlue is a fundraising organization that raises money for Democrat-aligned progressive organizations Your factcheck.org link (I won’t even get into that site’s egregious political bias) says that “donations to BLM don’t go to the DNC”
So your “fact check” may be correct. But it does not refute anything alleged in the article that I posted.
You find evidence that ActBlue does not take a 3.5% fee for processing BLM donations, and I will read and seriously consider it. In fact, you find evidence that the Democrat Party has condemned Antifa’s violence in any way, and I will consider that too.
But don’t come back at me with your subjective (and very biased) belief that I don’t understand how horrified and angered people were at the George Floyd murder. Because that’s actually bullshit. And it’s off-topic to boot.
It is not the 3.5% fee that is the serious issue.
It is that BLM itself is not a charity and contributions to it are not tax deductible.
So very little of the money going to ActBlue in the name of BLM is likely to go to BLM – so far it is small potatoes to pay a very small number of salaries.
Under certain circumstances ActBlue can unilaterally redirect the money contributed to ActBlue, more broadly they can do so with BLM’s permission.
And ultimately they MUST do one or the other – because BLM is not tax exempt and can not take much of the money without creating a huge IRS problem.
No, I posted a fact check of something You alleged: “So the Democrat Party has pulled in quite a nice cut.”
This, which you claimed, is rebutted. No, I did not bother reading your conspiracy theory article, I just read your characterization (or it seems mischaracterization) of it. How much time do you think I have for right wing conspiracy theories? No cut went to the DNC. You are wrong.
And I repeat: Just put it into words how the Dem party is going to benefits from its connection to the violent thugs of antifa. Can you do it? Can you make a coherent explanation of how Antifa helps the chances of the dem party? I say you cannot. Its bullshit.
“But don’t come back at me with your subjective (and very biased) belief that I don’t understand how horrified and angered people were at the George Floyd murder. Because that’s actually bullshit. And it’s off-topic to boot.”
You perhaps think they were horrified at one particular murder. It goes much much deeper. You have been waxing hysterical that so many people are actually sympathizing with BLM. The Floyd murder triggered something more than anger at one single murder, that is what seems to have escaped you. BLM stands for the whole problem and a very large and terrifying to the GOP number of people are sympathetic. Your commie angle on BLM is pathetic and misses the whole point of what people are angry about.
“In fact, you find evidence that the Democrat Party has condemned Antifa’s violence in any way, and I will consider that too.”
Done, easily by pasting in a fragement the words of the thing you wanted me to find: “Democrat Party has condemned Antifa’s violence.” I found a number of examples but I can only paste in one here. Next time don’t be so damned lazy, paste your own key words in if you want to know something.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/30/pelosi-condemns-violent-actions-of-antifa-protesters/
Now, your turn, you find me evidence that your trump has condemned the White Power video he tweeted and then deleted. Not some flunky, trump himself, the POTUS. Distanced himself with his own words from his white power tweet.
Your ActBlue and antifa profiting the dems post is complete nonsense. No, I do not think you understand much of what is going on.
We have no idea at this time what the “cut” of democrats will be.
ActBlue is as is pretty obvious an umbrella organization for Democratic causes, most of which are political.
Priscilla did not allege that the money is literally going to the DNC.
But it is likely to expect that alot of it will end up in Political action directly favoring democrats in 2020.
Just to be clear – I do not care. I want anybody to be able to give as much as they want to anybody else for political purposes.
So long as no one is decieved – and that appears not to be the case – I do not care.
But claims that this will prove a political financial windfall for democrats is true.
But I think it comes at a high price.
“Just put it into words how the Dem party is going to benefits from its connection to the violent thugs of antifa.”
Their not. It is going to hurt them.
“You perhaps think they were horrified at one particular murder. ”
The current nationwide spike in BLM popularity is tied to this ONE murder, as well as general public misperceptions about the scale of actual killings of unarmed blacks by police.
“It goes much much deeper. You have been waxing hysterical that so many people are actually sympathizing with BLM.”
They do not sympathize with BLM – they sympathize with what they think BLM stands for.
“The Floyd murder triggered something more than anger at one single murder, that is what seems to have escaped you.”
There are lots of factors – a major one being the very high unemployment among young people as a whole and black young people right now.
Those out in the streets are mostly young – and mostly VERY left.
But so long as the media papers over the violence and hides the actual ideology,
you are correct a very large number of people are “sympathetic”.
“BLM stands for the whole problem”
There is no consequential “whole problem”.
“and a very large and terrifying to the GOP number of people are sympathetic.”
While there are numerous facets to this.
I would expect your hopes to be dashed.
Mass shootings also drive people to a frenzy for a while – it fades.
These seems to have more leggs, but it also have numerous large downsides.
While CHAZ could have gone worse for the left – it is not going well.
Almost no one is looking at what is happening in Seattle and wants it.
CHAZ is undermining all this “sympathy” you are ranting about.
It is also pulling the blinders off and showing the core ideology of the protestors as far left communist, and anarchists. The Seattle mayor did not get her “summer of love”.
Further we are seeing violent Crime rise across the country, that is unlikely to return to normal anytime soon.
The press has papered over the violence – which fortunately did not rise to the level of the LA riots, but is still worse than the MSM has painted.
Regardless, the longer this goes on the bigger the backlash will be.
Trump has problems now – with the Right, because he is coming across weak.
He is in a difficult bind – he needs to act forcefully to solidify his base, but he can not afford to come across too authoritarian or he will alienate the middle.
But time is on his side, not democrats.
“Your commie angle on BLM is pathetic and misses the whole point of what people are angry about.”
People are angry about alot of things. George Floyd and BLM will not only not get you to election day, it will ultimately make election day worse for democrats.
Just as Trump is having a problem with his own base – democrats are having problems too.
This is all happening in democratic cities. You already have a brewing war between the protestors and the Democratic political leaders.
Just as republicans are not happy because Trump is not “keeping them safe”.
People in Chicago, NYC, Seattle, etc and not happy with their own democratic leaders.
This does not end well for democrats. It does not matter whether the protestors or the establishment win. There are no real winners in a civil war.
It does not even matter if this turns into open conflict – though it already has at low levels.
Democrats must give these protestors something big – or they are not voting.
And if they do – they will alienate the middle.
Worse still they MUST bring crime under control – and that is probably now impossible.
The police may not get the Blu Flu, but you have destroyed their morale.
You will not get the policing needed to bring crime back under control without boosting police morale.
Basically you have a big mess coming.
In fact even Dave has tried to tell you that while there may be Marxists in BLM it is not a marxist or even an ideological movement. Use key words, look it up.
If you are going to continually swallow these kinds of right wing conspiracy theories from now till election day you will have a collapse. Why don’t you try to understand that this time around a majority of people actually are understanding the shit that African Americans have to try to survive? And no, that is not good for the GOP or trump. But it is good for the country.
Please read what I have said. This is not a “look it up” thing.
The BLM organization is marxist. It is deliberately “crypto-marxist”.
Even the not strictly affliated leaders are marxists or just plain lunatics.
The actual protestors are young whites and blacks – mostly unemployed, or students home from college. They lean STONGLY very far left.
But massive numbers of people from all political walks have responding with shock to the killing of George Floyd.
This is little different from what happens with every mass shooting.
While it appears this has more leggs than a mass shooting – the odds of this sustaining to the election are near zero.
WORSE, is this creates numerous losing problems for democrats.
The rising crime is problematic for Trump – he looks weak to his base, and he can not afford that, and he also has to be careful about strong action as the press is going to highlight every mistake and it is not possible to act without making mistakes, and that will hurt him with moderates. But Trump can navigate that.
The problem on the left is more severe.
Not just BLM but the protestors or the street ARE pretty far left.
They must be given satisfaction before the election or they are not voting.
And there is nothing that they can be given that will not harm democrats with the center.
And regardless, you have created a crime problem that is not going away anytime soon, Which Trump is going to hang arround the neck of democrats like a millstone.
And frankly Trump needs to do nothing. Voters will do this for him.
Next: A bunch of statues is not a big deal. Except they are symbols.
There is a plurality of people who do not want Confederate statues torn down.
Defacing Lincoln and Washington is really really really stupid.
But ultimately the statues are symbols – and everyone knows it.
They are symbols of very many things.
One of the things destroying them symbolizes is “America was never great”
Do you really think that the Democratic party wants to own that symbolism ?
The other is anarchy – that is not working for you either.
Robby
“If you are going to continually swallow these kinds of right wing conspiracy theories”
The only right wing conspiracy theory is this fictitious one in the mind of the left.
You and your link have misrepresented Owens tweet, misrepresented Priscilla.
While I am not concerned about what is occuring with donations to BLM through Act Blue.
Everyone should be able to contribute politically as they please – without limits.
That does not mean that Priscilla’s characterization of the BLM contributions as ultimately serving democrats politically is false.
It is correct.
There is no right wing conspiracy theory.
I have so far found NO ONE on the right saying this money is going directly to Biden or the DNC. They are all saying the Money going to BLM is going to/being used to politically benefit democrats – which it is.
And later in the election when you rant about wherever it is that Trump gets money from – remember this.
Anyone should be free to contribute whatever they want to whoever they want, or whatever issues they want.
I would note two things.
1). If Trump said this you would be ranting racism.
2). This Biden was far more coherent than the one running today.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/07/politics/biden-1993-speech-predators/index.html
“Bullshit. A right-wing conspiracy theory.”
Do you read your own links ?
You can not contribute to BLM directly – they are not a 501(c)3.
Contributions to BLM are routed through “ActBlue”
Your own link confirms that.
Further though ActBlue works are a clearing house for a number of charities, contributions to ActBlue can potentially end up going to any ActBlue affiliate – not necessarily the one you chose to find – and that includes numerous democratic political causes.
Currently only a tiny portions of Contributions to BLM through ActBlue are going to BLM.
And those pretty much exclusively pay salaries for a small number of key BLM people.
None of this is “secret”.
Because it is done openly, I do not have a problem with it.
That said the “right wing conspiracy theory” is TRUE.
In fact the only FALSE thing is the claim that Owens said the money went to the DNC
Here is Owens actual tweet
“Just put it into words how the Dem party is going to benefits from its connection to the violent thugs of antifa. Can you do it? Can you make a coherent explanation of how Antifa helps the chances of the dem party? I say you cannot. Its bullshit.”
I agree – though democratic campaigns will likely benefit financially from the money going purportedly to BLM – that can not really go to BLM as they are not a charity.
Ultimately this whole thing will prove a political disaster for democrats.
“Try to grasp the idea that BLM is actually about exactly what it seems to be about, and is not some commie organization”
Not either/or.
There are myriads of people some black some not protesting. Most of those are genuinely engaged in peaceful protests – even if it is misguided.
At the same time the actual BLM corporate entity – as independent of the myriads of protesters identifying themselves with BLM, actually is a “commie organization”.
The three principles in BLM are avowed communists. They are wise enough, they do not give interviews and they do not speak publicly. They and BLM function as organizers.
But many BLM leaders – who are not formally affiliated with BLM – but are inextricably identified with BLM, have said all kinds of very stupid, sometimes communistic things.
I would further note – as you can tell from watching most of this. Almost all of this is young whites and blacks. And the vast majority of those are on the FAR LEFT relative to this country.
And this poses a major problem for the democratic party.
To some extent what we are seeing right now is NOT some big Black thing – even thought there is an element of that present. It is actually a tear in the democratic party.
These are the Bernie Bro’s or the Warren Supporters, these are the far left of the democratic party that did not win the democratic primary telling the democratic moderates – the Biden supporters that there is a high price to be paid for their support.
And democrats have a serious problem. They can not hope to win in november if their far left flank stays home. If younger democrats do not vote in large numbers.
At the same time, paying the price the far left demands to MAYBE vote – young voters have a horrible track record – it is far easier to get them to riot than vote, that will alienate moderates and moderate dems.
Robby, it does not matter how high Biden polls – assuming the polls are even accurate.
If he can not get both young democratic voters who really are socialists, to vote, AND moderate dems and the majority of moderates to vote – Biden is going to be slaughtered.
“Or you can believe that a majority of Americans have been duped by commies and that Antifa will get the dem party into the oval office.
And you think I have lost it.”
Few have been duped.
To the extent BLM has large public support right now – it is because it is an aspiration – NOT that strongly identified with the formal BLM organization.
If people are being duped into contributing to Democratic political causes – they are being openly duped.
If you are contribution to BLM and do not realize you are actually contributing to ActBlue
Then you are as stupid as those people influenced by Russian memes in 2016.
Regardless, I do not care who you contribute to.
So long as you do not care who I contribute to.
Get rid of the last vestiges of campaign finance laws and this is solely about political points and nothing else.
The democrats problem is not BLM money.
It is trying to get two blocks of voters that are not compatible with each other to the polls on election day.
“I agree – though democratic campaigns will likely benefit financially from the money going purportedly to BLM – that can not really go to BLM as they are not a charity.”
You have based this on a string of hypotheticals. I highly doubt you are correct. If you are correct something is wrong, yes.
So prove it, don’t hand wave the money from BLM into the Dem party through ActBlu. Prove it. If you do I Will care.
“You have based this on a string of hypotheticals. I highly doubt you are correct. If you are correct something is wrong, yes.”
Hypothetical no – mildly speculative – it must be, it is about the future.
FACTS:
BLM is not at this time tax exempt. Any donations that are actually paid to BLM will be taxed.
This is why BLM is getting money through ActBlue.
When you donate through ActBlue – your donations can be redirected to different ActBlue participants. That is AcBlue’s formal terms. If you contrinuted – you accepted that.
The money can be redirected with BLM’s permission.
It can be redirected should BLM not draw the money within a short perscribed time at ActBlue’s discretion.
ActBlue’s mission is to advance BLUE – Democratic causes – all are political, some are specifically for the benefit of the democratic party.
These things are not hypothetical. They are all facts or terms and conditions.
As I have said – I have no problem with this.
I do not care if money donated the BLM goes to Biden’s campaign.
I do not expect that, but it is possible.
Regardless, if you donated to BLM through ActBlue – you knew this or should have.
“Prove it” – Why ? It is part of the terms and conditions when you contributed through ActBlue.
That is not my problem – I do not care.
Your the one who Cares.
What I care about is that you have no problem with this. But you will wig out over Sheldon Adelson or the Koch’s, or the NRA – all of which are inconsequential.
I do not care who gives money to who.
You are the one who thinks you are entitled to control everything.
“This does not end well for democrats. ”
The generic congressional vote spread has now risen to +9 for the Dems.
Biden now leads trump by just shy of 10 points in the 538 composite, which is almost the same number as the congressional spread. Its hard to deny that there is a strong preference for democrats right now, well into the protests you believe will save the GOP.
trump is now 16 underwater in 538 and at his highest disapproval level since 2017.
Meanwhile you are expected a red wave. You are expecting everything to go trumps way for the next 4 months, the economy, COVID, the police issue.
I think you are delusional.
Someone’s hopes are going to be dashed, we will see whose.
“The generic congressional vote spread has now risen to +9 for the Dems.”
I can provide long analysis, but it does not matter. You will ignore it.
I am not worried.
If you want to celebrate now – have fun.
November is coming. If you think that is going to be good for you – fine.
But November is coming.
My guess is that if the election was held TODAY – Trump would win about the same as in 2016. That Republicans would either retake the house or come close. They have dominated the few special elections we have had, and they have done so – not in Trump country, but in bell weather districts that are must wins for democrats in 2020.
If you think that C19 is favoring Biden – good for you.
If you think these protests favor Biden – good for you.
If you think that rising crime favors Biden – good for you.
If you think the V shaped recovery that is already underway favors Biden – good for you.
Even Obama thinks Biden needs to stay locked in the basement. That has worked so far, maybe it will work for another 4 months – or not.
If you think Biden is going to survive debates with Trump – good for you.
Who knows – maybe you are right.
but I would not bet on it.
I think this election is already over. That the pendulum is out as far as it possibly can go for Biden, and even that required massive amounts of luck and massive and dangerous political machinations from the left.
What do you expect Democrats to do over the next 4 months as the pendulum inevitably swings back ?
Are you going to stage more riots ?
Try Impeachment II ?
The future is unpredicatable – we have seen that this spring.
But what we can predict all favors Trump.
I have ignored 538 since they blew 2016.
“Meanwhile you are expected a red wave.?”
Yes,
“You are expecting everything to go trumps way for the next 4 months”
No.
But all the things that we can predict are already near certain to.
“the economy”
Absolutely. The only “economic problem Trump faces is that low skilled workers will see the benefits last.
Further the economic damage from C19 was more than 3 times greater in Blue states than Red.
Regardless the economy does not need to recover by Nov.
All that is necescary is that people need to see the future as brighter than the past or present.
That is pretty much baked in.
“COVID”
The odds of C19 being a negative for Trump in November are small.
We have already seen C19 burn out in many countries – so we already know that it has a natural limit. You seem to loath calling that herd immunity. It does not matter.
If we are not close to C19 burning out in the US now – we will be.
You disagree – fine, then why is it that some states, some countries have had huge numbers of infections and then tappered off to nothing.
C19 in NY was disasterous. Cuomo’s measures did nothing. But it has tappered down to almost nothing in NY now. Either New York has reached the limits of C19, or it will rush back as restrictions are lifted. Those are the only choices.
If the former – the same will happen everywhere else in the country and soon.
If the latter – then the whole world will continue to have massive numbers of infections and deaths.
What is certainly false – is that something that any country or state has done accomplished anything beyond delay.
“the police issue.”
Will ultimately go very badly for Dem’s.
Trump has a problem with his own base – they wanted him to be stronger.
But dems are fracturing their party.
When Biden speaks – he spray’s platitudes, but does not really disagree with Trump.
It does not matter if there police are actually racist. In demonizing the police, Democrats have made a huge mistake. There is not a good outcome.
While Biden has tried to stay away from Radical proposals – as things go south, he gets the blame no matter what. This is not a Trump/Biden issue. The entire democratic party has bought in to radically changing policing. That is going to terrify people.
As noted – gun sales are way up – and large numbers of new gun owners are women.
Further democrats are stupidly demonizing Gun owners. Most on the left see the video of he couple defending themselves and their home as dangerous right wingers. Most on the right see it was a couple defending their home and their lives against a mob.
The good news is nothing happened. But A democratic AG is threatening to prosecute the couple – this couple is democratic trial lawyers who have mostly represented poor blacks and even filed police brutality claims. Who do you think they are voting for in Nov ?
Who do you think everyone worried about crime, and worried about the left taking away their right to defend themselves is voting for ?
Chaos and anarchy ALWAYS leads to strong men stepping in.
Trump is being criticized by the right for not being that strong man.
But there is no chance on the planet that Biden will be the “strong man” in november.
“Someone’s hopes are going to be dashed, we will see whose.”
And now for something completely different.
https://environmentalprogress.org/big-news/2020/6/29/on-behalf-of-environmentalists-i-apologize-for-the-climate-scare
Roby, it has become impossible to have a rational discussion with you.
The article I posted is not an opinion piece ~ it’s a piece of investigative journalism, and you would not even read it because I posted it, and beccause you cannot believe that your precious Democrat Party has become a party increasingly controlled by the radical left.
(And it’s interesting that you had to go back to 2017 to find a case in which one Democrat was willing to condemn them. Nice googling.)
I get it. The news media has, for the most part, been MIA on this. And the Republican Party
has been as well, with the exception of a few. Lifelong Democrats still want to believe that theirs is the Party of JFK, despite overwhelming evidence that it is now the party of AOC.
Only a few honest journalists have been willing to brave the freakout that occurs everytime they find evidence that the violent and destructive riots that are destroying our cities have been instigated and managed by groups that are using the shell of the Democrat Party to raise money and operate under the protection of a compliant news media.
Are they also aligning strategically with these groups? Probably, although, that is not quite so clear. Since the traditional, establishment Democrats like Nancy Pelosi, don’t seem to have any sort of agenda, my impression is that they are attempting to hold the a tiger by the tail. That tiger is the violent left, and the establishment Dems believe that, after they wiin in November, they will be able to shut down the young, disaffected communists, both black and white, that have been pumped out of our colleges, believing that America is the cause of all the evil and suffering in the world.
Listen, I hope that Pelosi, Schumer, Hoyer, Clyburn and the rest can stamp out the far left cancer that is taking over their Party. But, I don’t think that they can or even that they care that much, as long as they can stay in power. When you believe in nothing, you’ll fall for anythng, and they have fallen for the idea that they are in total control of future events.
AOC and her crowd are snickering.
Priscilla, you mention the party of JFK. What we wont find today is anyone in the democrat party that could come anywhere close to JFK. To try to say anyone was 1/2 as good would ge jo better than spitting on his grave.
And the left will never report anything about why most all of the issues that set off riots and demonstrations are in northern and western democrat run cities, and mostly democrat run states. They will blame Trump and Washington.
The problems are local. Washington has no involvement in Minneapolis allowing the police union to run the department. Washington has no control on the Minneapolis city council allowing cops with multiple complaints to stay on the job. And the same goes for L.A., NYC, Boston and others.
The blacks have no leader, so these northern politicians can take advantage of them since they lack any power other than violent demonstrations to make any change. And the riots result in negative change. A community dependent on Colin Kaeperneck and kneeling has no leadership.
On another, related topic: why has no one been arrested for the 2 murders and multiple casualties in the Seattle “autonomous zone” (CHAZ, CHOP, whatever)?
One of the dead was a 16 year old black boy. A 14 year old was critically injured in the same incident. Earlier a 19 year old was killed.
First responders were not permitted to help.
This is what Democrats want??! I doubt it, but Jenny Durkan, Mayor of Seattle has called CHOP “the summer of love” and told the feds to stay away.
Oh well,, after the second murder in cold blood, she finally ordered the police to clear the area.
No arrests, though.
Like I just commented, another politician taking advantage of them.
And now LA is proposing to de-arm police and make them some kind of security consultant for first responders.
What person is going to be dumb enough to respond to a domestic disturbance? That is one of the most dangerous calls a cop can respond to as the person under attack can turn on the cop in a heart beat.
I actually support alot of police reform.
But there are complexities.
If the police actually were systemically racist – what the left is doing would still be disasterous – for blacks.
There are lots of improvements that we need with police.
But if we destroy police morale in the process – the results will be more violent crime and death.
Regardless, democrats appear to be committing suicide.
And Robby thinks November is going to go well ?
Well, I’m with Roby. Trump is the Clinton in this upcoming election. Joe just needs to stay out of the limelight, use campaign ads, dont debate and go on favorable network programs that will throw him softball questions and he will carry the states he needs plus a couple to get elected, and bring a senate with him.
Remember, where the riots and defunding the police movement exist is in solid blue states. The red states will stay red. And purple is the new blue.
“Well, I’m with Roby. Trump is the Clinton in this upcoming election. ”
Maybe you will prove correct, but in my view absent some other cataclysmic event not only is Trump locked But the GOP is.
I keep noting I think it is NY16 and CA25. These are big swings since 2018.
Everything that is going on is polarizing the electorate – and it is driving the left farther left.
Though Democrats held on in some races being challenged by serious progressives – they also lost several of them.
Look arround you at BLM and “the protests” – be sympathetic if you want – the push is hard LEFT for democrats.
Enthusiasm for Biden is poor.
Trump has made a number of campaign mistakes recently, he has not found his message yet. But he is back in an “underdog” postition – while I do not think that is correct, that is where he is politically most effective.
Maybe C19 will not fade – but that is highly unlikely. Maybe there will be a big second wave – also unlikely.
Maybe an asteroid will strike, maybe the economy will mysteriously tank.
But if you are going to bet on 2020 based on what is probable rather than the odds of an asteroid strike – Trump wins.
The odds are C19 will not be an issue by the election.
The odds are the BLM will not be an issue by the election.
The odds are increase crime WILL be an issue.
The debates are going to be an issue.
The Economy is recovering much faster than expected and we are not even close to fully opened. Employment is coming back faster than expected.
This is going to be a rising curve until the election.
Yes the press is being nice to Biden – but not completely nice.
And Biden can not hunker down until the election.
It works now, it will not work for the whole next 4 months.
I do not think most people will be paying attention – but more is coming out about Biden Ukraine. Mire about ObamaGate – and Biden is involved.
I think Durham/Barr will be conservative about charges – but some people are getting indicted. Regardless more information will out.
We are told Durham is focused on the period before July 2016 – ANYTHING in that period is really dangerous to the left and good for Trump.
I would tend to agree that if democrats can get 100% of their voters out they will win.
But they can’t, and they are increasingly fighting among themselves.
It is very odd but young adults will protest. They will not vote – that was true in the 60’s too.
and without them Biden is toast.
“Remember, where the riots and defunding the police movement exist is in solid blue states. The red states will stay red. And purple is the new blue.”
Many of these states are not true blue – they are purple. People are going to be voting against their current governor.
I would also note that two republicans won NYC running on law and order platforms.
Regardless it is a big deal that the democrats are fighting among themselves.
Ron, I agree that the Biden campaign is using the lockdown very effectively, to keep Joe out of sight and out of mind, and make all of the trouble and chaos in the country Trump’s fault.
And, right now, Trump is in a lose/lose situation ~ he has already said that he wants the governors to lead their own states out of the covid crisis and re-establish their states’ economies. He clearly thought that there would be more progress on this, based on the belief that even blue state governors would not exploit the economic pain and suffering for political gain. But that’s where he was wrong, and, about the time he was realizing it, the George Floyd riots started, putting him into another lose/lose, if he called out the National Guard to put down riots when blue city mayors made it very clear that they wanted the riots and not the National Guard.
It’s been a very bad couple of months for him, but I predict that he has figured out that 1) Democrats are planning to use the covid crisis to keep Biden off of the campaign trail and out of sight, and, come September, Biden will not be participating in any live debates, despite his announcement that he will. He is doing WAY better out of sight, out of mind and 2) they have decided to go all in with BLM, and use its misleading name to convince good hearted Americans that it is a civil rights/ anti police brutality organization, rather than a violent Marxist one, dedicated to promoting racial hatred and violence.
He needs to start running against the lockdowns and against the Marxists and anarchists that are doing the Dems’ work for them. If he can discipline himself not to go off message or be distracted by stupid crap, he can turn this around. You and Roby are correct in saying that, right now, he is the issue, and he’s got to turn that around.
That said, of course, he may not be able to discipline himself, and he will dig a deeper hole. But, Biden has nothing to run on, can’t string two sentences together and has a lot of political and personal baggage, as well. I just know from my own experience with my Jersey liberal friends, that they want to vote for Biden, but they don’t know if they can vote for a guy in obvious cognitive decline.
So it could turn out that Trump loses in a landslide, or ends up winning pretty easily. I’m assuming if will be close.
while there is small amounts of vascillation – generally people are tired of C19.
are we done with infections – no. Are we done making every waking moment about C19 – yes.
Biden can hunker down, but he can not do it forever, and he flubs softballs.
Further Biden has the same problem with Sanders/Warren … voters that hillary had.
Many of them are not voting for biden.
I think this is also part of what is wrong with Polls right now – they are under estimating Trump voters – party because of methodological errors, but also because there is about 2-4% hidden Trump voters who will not tell a polster how they are voting.
But I suspect there is a bigger Biden bump – people who say they are voting for Biden, but are not voting.
Biden has a 30+pt enthusiasm gap with Trump, That is huge. If 1 in 3 of the weak Biden voters does not Vote – Democrats lose – and that is highly likely.
Further Robby is counting on Trump hatred rather than Biden love.
That is always a problem in an election. It is easier to use negative adds to depress your opponents votes. They do not work to energize reluctant voters.
And as C19 fades and the economy heats up – Trump hatred becomes a much weaker force
I do not beleive the past several months have been as bad for him as they appear.
Everything that has happened has both long term and short term impacts.
They have had large short term anti-Trump impacts – some irrationally.
But I think the long term impacts are pro Trump. That is both of C19 and these protests.
No one in the streets was voting for Trump before.
It is the people not in the streets that matter – the samem people who are swayed by Floyd and protestors will shift the other way the more they percieve crime and chaos.
The press may be biased, but they are not going to pretend everything is honky dory for the next 4 months.
i think it is possible Republicans lose badly. I think it is possible they win strongly.
I do not think this will be close.
One reason is that from the start of Trump;s presidency the left has been playing uproar.
If they do not sustain the anger at Trump all the way to election day – they lose, and they lose big.
“He clearly thought that there would be more progress on this, based on the belief that even blue state governors would not exploit the economic pain and suffering for political gain.”
That is a disgustingly ugly right wing propaganda statement. You can no more back up this statement than you can back up the idea that Antifa is going to get the Dems back into power. You have retreated to a world of complete delusion, the worst part of the partisan GOP bubble. Yes, the complete mishandling of COVID by trump has hurt him and naturally helped the Dem party.
COVID is reality. It just is. It is going to help one party and hurt another if one party has a sensible take on it and the other does not. Large parts of the GOP party are in full retreat from reality on COVID, led from the beginning by trump. The Tulsa rally was an incredibly and disgracefully stupid thing to hold, utterly unsafe. trump now owns the second wave, which is upon us. That is not someone else’s fault. Hold trump accountable and the like minded people in the GOP accountable is not exploitation. Many people will get COVID in Tulsa who would not have, some will die. All to make trump feel better.
Actually there are sane politicians and governors and in general people in the GOP who are taking COVID seriously. The delusional incompetence of trump stands in contrast. GOP Governors in places like Florida and Texas made a huge mistake by following the trump line and their citizens are now paying with their health and lives. But even those Governors have managed to recognize reality now and respond. They really have no choice but I will still give them some credit for reentering reality.
You have lost it completely. Seriously, get help.
roby, this came back as a response to Ron P.. Did I say this ““He clearly thought that there would be more progress on this, based on the belief that even blue state governors would not exploit the economic pain and suffering for political gain.”
If I did I apologize. I must have had more to drink than I thought.
“That is a disgustingly ugly”
It is. The question is whether it is true or not.
Calling it right wing or propaganda does not change whether it is true.
Why are we to trust the assorted democrats who have been selling the collusion delusion for years ?
Why are we to trust the democrats who are running the blue states and cities who are rioting, and trying to blame republicans for THEIR clear failures.
The claim of systemic racism – is rot. But if it is true – it is systemic racism in the deepest blue parts of the country. And yet democrats are trying to blame Trump ? Republicans ?
We had rioting for similiar reasons with Clinton and Obama.
It is not hard to beleive that democrats are abdicating responsibility and blaming republicans for their own failures – because they do it all the time.
Why should we not beleive that the party that said “never let a crisis go to waste” would not exploit a crisis ?
Yes, that is disgustingly ugly.
Worse it is not clearly false.
“You can no more back up this statement”
Its is plausible. Democrats took political advantage of the financial crisis. Why not this ?
Blue states are begging for government bailouts.
“than you can back up the idea that Antifa is going to get the Dems back into power.”
No one is staying they will the opposite it true. But antifa is trying to get the left into power.
They are just failing.
“You have retreated to a world of complete delusion, the worst part of the partisan GOP bubble.”
We live in a strange world – one in which Alex Jones is more accurate than Anderson Cooper.
Where the collusion delusion was false,
but there was a conspiracy going all the way to Biden and Obama to use the power of government to sabotage political opponents
The FBI and IRS and CIA said NO! when Nixon asked.
They said YES! to Obama.
Why should I beleive that democrats would not take political advantage of C19 ?
Of Race riots ?
It is not unusual behavior of democrats.
I have asked you repeatedly for foundational principles. what I get from you is situational ethics. The ends justifies the means.
Well if the ends justifies the means, all you need to persuade yourself to do heinous things is to believe there will be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
The left – yourself included has already demonstrated you have no moral compass, No core principles. no integrity. That you think it is OK to call people racists.
Why should we beleive that exploiting C19 is outside what you are capable of ?
“Yes, the complete mishandling of COVID by trump ”
Again – what is your evidence ? You demanded proof of Ron’s allegation – where is yours ?
The US is doing better than most of the world, though frankly there is little evidence that anywhere is doing anything that works.
What has Trump done that you can prove was wrong ?
Your the ends justifies the means crowd.
How is Trump’s outcome different from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, the UK, ?
And If Trump “mishandled C19” – what of newsome, Whitmer, Cuomo ?
Texas would have to almost triple the number of cases to match NY, It would have to have almost 20 times the number of deaths to match NY
The top 8 states in Deaths are Blue. With NY having more than the remaining 7 combined.
Texas has 50% more people than NY.
Eliminate all the blue states and the US did far better than the rest of the world.
So did Trump F’up Blue states ? Did he F’up NY ?
And somehow get the rest of the country right ?
Or are you just making more false allegations ?
Dave “How is Trump’s outcome different from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, the UK, ?
I would like to see people stop comparing the United States to European countries. We can not compare us to them because the European Union does not have the strong centralized federal government like USA.
All of these countries in Europe are not much bigger than Texas, and some are even smaller. When their leader makes a decision, it is like the Governor of one of our states making a decision. They should be compared to a state, like Germany to Texas or Belgium to Virginia.
And if and when we ever get a federal government that takes the states rights away without an amended constitution and makes face mask a federal crime, this country will be in for hell, much like Venezuela.
Dave “How is Trump’s outcome different from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, the UK, ?
“I would like to see people stop comparing the United States to European countries. We can not compare us to them because the European Union does not have the strong centralized federal government like USA.”
So what ? The government of each country combines the powers of a US state and the US federal govenrment.
The population of Germany is 83M, France 67M, UK 63M, Italy 67M Spain 43M
The largest US state CA has a population of 40M. TX 29M FL 22M NY 20M
Total US population 330M EU 540M
There is no problem comparing European countries to the US.
Germany is 3 times the population of TX.
If anything as individual countries they have STRONGER “central” governments than the US.
Germany has done well. The rest of Europe – big and small has done worse than the US.
Further we can compare to the rest of the world too.
As I said before – there is no government action that correlates to an effective response based on global data.
C19 does not care about your government or its strength.
The only factors that have shown statistical significance are
Latitude
Demographics
Diet.
No government action has had a statistically significant effect.
“COVID is reality. It just is. It is going to help one party and hurt another”
That is correct, but the long term impact is not likely the same as the short term.
“one party has a sensible take on it and the other does not.”
They did ? I saw lots of blue ranting. But I did not see any good blue results.
Governors have near total control of public health in their states.
If Democrats were sensible and republicans were not – why was NY practically a holocaust ?
I do not disagree that democrats have benefited. But not because they knew what they were doing. Nor because they were successfull.
There will be an economic recovery – it is going to be strong and it is going to be fast.
Trump will get the credit – whether he is responsible or not.
Trump is going to be heading into november with incredible economic numbers every month from here out.
There is nothing you can do about that.
C19 is going to fade – probably fast. But certainly by the end of summer.
There is nothing you can do about that.
BLM and protests will fade slowly, and our view of them will change slowly.
While the left got away with rioting. looting and arson immediately after Floyd’s death – americans are increasingly upset about this attack on statutes.
56% of the country wants the confederate statues to remain. They are even more upset about the attacks on Lincoln.
This is a small thing in reality – but it is proving disasterous for the left politically.
It is also undermining the moral perception of BLM
Durham is near certain to start indicting people soon.
I suspect it will only be a few. But that is happening.
And you can not stop it.
We will learn more and more about Obama gate
and you can not stop it.
Even left sites like “The Rising” were not fooled by the latest Russia nonsense.
The country wants out of afghanistan NOW !
They accept that we are making a deal with the devil and that the Taliban are evil and will do bad things when they return to power.
And they grasp that this “russian bounties” story – even if true is just a deep state effort to keep us in Afghanistan forever.
And worse the story appears to be false. Trump was not briefed and the IC does not agree that the story is true, or that it is not deliberate disinformation.
“Large parts of the GOP party are in full retreat from reality on COVID”
What is “the reality of Covid” ? You say there are two views – what is the other ?
What would proveably have worked ?
How can republicans be delusional, when no one has an answer ?
“”The Tulsa rally was an incredibly and disgracefully stupid thing to hold, utterly unsafe. trump now owns the second wave, which is upon us. ”
How so ? There are 395 deaths in the entire state of OK only 7 after the rally. Regardless the time from infection to death is typically atleast 14 days – so there are 0 known deaths from Tulsa yet. If there is a huge death spike in Tulsa next week – maybe.
But so far – you have nothing.
Further how is trump’s purportedly small rally killing people – but millions of rioters are not ?
“That is not someone else’s fault. Hold trump accountable and the like minded people in the GOP accountable is not exploitation”
We should hold people accountable for what we can actually attribute to them.
Trump’s rally was in Tulsa – not Tampa, not LA. There is no unique OK pattern. In fact OK C19 is pretty tame.
OK has 1/5 the population of NY. it has 1/100th the deaths of NY, it has 1/30 the cases of NY.
Lets hold people accountable – how about the democrats who let this get into nursing homes murdering people.
If we think large gatherings are dangerous – then Condem Trump – and BLM.
“Many people will get COVID in Tulsa who would not have, some will die. All to make trump feel better.”
That would be plausible of OK was unique – btw the OK death rate is going DOWN.
But CA is spiking
Highest daily deaths per capita today are
NJ, RI, AZ, IL, MA, MS, NH, LA, DC, MD
OK does not make the top ten.
In fact no state near OK is in the top ten.
In fact OK is 47th in the per capita deaths.
and according to Wapo has had a 0% increase in deaths.
“Actually there are sane politicians and governors and in general people in the GOP who are taking COVID seriously. The delusional incompetence of trump stands in contrast. GOP Governors in places like Florida and Texas made a huge mistake by following the trump line and their citizens are now paying with their health and lives. But even those Governors have managed to recognize reality now and respond.”
Have you looked at the actual responses ?
TX is making it harder to get elective surgery to maintain atleast 50% excess hospital capacity. Otherwise they have done nothing.
“roby, this came back as a response to Ron P.. Did I say this ““He clearly thought that there would be more progress on this, based on the belief that even blue state governors would not exploit the economic pain and suffering for political gain.”
If I did I apologize. I must have had more to drink than I thought.”
Ron I was replying to Priscilla. I mostly just start a fresh post these days so that you will not accidentally get mixed up when I reply to Dave or Priscilla. In this case I did reply to a thread you started.
Roby, I got messed up with WordPress incompetent programming, so no matter who I respond to and how, I always enter their name at the beginning. Only those general comments have no names. I got tired of people asking me that same question I asked you. It solved the problem.
Another example that this progressive nonsense fails.
Either our cities are about to turn red, or the last sane people are leaving.
Or, we’re about to go back to the urban wastelands of the 70’s, when the cities were cesspools of crime and filth, and businesses were falling over each other to get out of them.
No matter what violent cities result in red votes.
Dave the fantasy world you normally live in is nothing compared to the full and total retreat from reality you are in now.
COVID is not fading.
Like any sane person I wish it were and I wish the economy really was to about to make a huge recovery. The likelihood of the that happening while COVID is doing the absolute opposite of fading is very low. The second wave has started. You have tuned out reality completely.
“COVID is not fading.”
Robby, I find it hard to believe you have any involvement in science.
You are completely unable to examine the facts.
I have addressed this innumerable times.
If you wish to beleive that everything is going to hell – I can not stop you.
It is impossible to overcome faith and feelings with facts.
“Like any sane person I wish it were and I wish the economy really was to about to make a huge recovery. The likelihood of the that happening while COVID is doing the absolute opposite of fading is very low.”
The economy is recovering PERIOD. It is recovering regardless of what you believe about a 2nd wave. No one is shutting down again. Probably ever for anything. That was a huge mistake.
“The second wave has started. You have tuned out reality completely.”
I can explain why you are wrong. But it does not matter.
The real world does not care about your beliefs.
You purportedly have advanced degrees in biology – you should be able to look at the data yourself.
I am tired of explaining the obvious to you.
You say there is a spike ? Why ?
People were protesting massively in NY, Illinois, Michigan, Washington State and DC, Massachusets, none of those states are showing spikes or 2nd waves.
But the average age of “new cases’ is 20. There is no spike in hospitalizations, there is no spike in deaths.
While there is an obvious explanation. even if you do not accept that, WHY are some states spiking and others not ? Why are the states that were hardest hit NOT spiking ?
The obvious answer is the virus can only find few people that can still be infected.
But if you do not like that answer – figure out another – one actually consistent with the facts.
I can think of several.
But there is no explanation except “magic” in which the states that were hard hit has steadily declining, while those that were not are rising.
If a 2nd wave were possible – why not in NYC right now ? Why not in Italy ? Spain ?
Do you think the virus has mutated and all spring it attack Blue states and now in the summer it is targeting red ones ?
You claim to have a STEM education – you should be able to find obvious patterns in data.
But in the event you have not, if you look hard enough, there are others who can explain this to you.
As to your idea that people want a strong man, that may be true to some extent for some people. But the nation as a whole does not want a Strongman, that is something different.
The Tulsa rally was not not strong leadership, it was an irresponsible and insane action by a delusional out of control narcissist. A majority of Americans can tell that and that is not what they want. trump is not Churchill, he is not the man who has sized up a problem correctly and responded with clarity. He is a man who has made the problem worse at every stage. A strong man who can lead in America today is not some kind of demagogic lunatic.
Now, in your world COVID is fading, and many republicans share that opinion, so perhaps in your world and theirs the Tulsa rally was a good and safe and sensible and proper thing to do and its health consequences are just the overactive left wing nut imagination of people like me. History is not going to be kind to that idea.
No Priscilla, I am not exploiting COVID for political gain by saying this. I am describing reality.
Roby, I am going to respond to this also.
Yes, Tulsa was stupid. If he does not want to be seen with a mask, then he should stay in the white house and make presentations in the press room were social distancing can take place.
To add, this is not a political virus, even though some try to make it one were wearing a masks makes you a liberal and not wearing one makes you a conservative. I have been out every day since N.C. Gov Cooper made his “pretty please, be good boys and girls, wear a mask” mandate (no enforcement teeth in mandate) and most everyone wearing a mask is white, mosts blacks and hispanics are not in the stores I went to. So wearing a masks is not political! All of our blacks and hispanics are not conservatives.
Last, it is also not a democrat or republican action problem. Florida, led by a republican left the state much more open, but insured those most at risk were protected. California, led by a democrat, closed the state up tighter than Dicks hat ban. Both states now have the highest number of new cases and closing again is not going to be an answer. Many who supported that to begin with will not in the future.
And then you have the dim wit New Jersey governor that is trying to reclose and just screwed over hundreds of restaurant owners saying they could reopen, they restock food and two days later he closes them again because bars are over crowded. So they agreed to limit seating as the law required, but he still closes them. If they were not bankrupt to begin with, buying food to restock restaurants might put them over the edge when they cant sell it. And fresh meat and veggies don’t last.
As for mask, that needs to be a local issue with enforcement teeth. Up to $1000 fine for first offense. Goes up each time after. They are doing that in Boone N.C. But it can not be a national mandate like Biden wants to do because many states do not need it. many counties within states do not need it. Even in California, I suspect there are many counties with few cases. Its a local issue that local leaders need to take by the B—s and enforce!
“Yes, Tulsa was stupid. If he does not want to be seen with a mask, then he should stay in the white house and make presentations in the press room were social distancing can take place.”
Why ? Do you think anyone who has not been tested is allowed within 6ft of Trump ?
If you are Robby and Jay shouldn;t you want Trump to get C19 ?
Contra Robby, there is no evidence of a Tulsa specific spike.
There has been a rise in the number of new cases through many parts of the country,
correlating to two things – a factor of 6 increase in testing and more people – particularly young people returning to normal lives.
But who cares if there are more cases – whether it is behaviorial or an artifact of testing, if it is not increasing deaths and hospitalizations.
And it is not.
If Trump’s rally was dangerous – then the BLM protests were far worse.
But we are not seeing actual evidence that either had any effect.
Tulsa stupid because.
1. Moderate/independent voters
2. Any increase in cases in Tulsa area within 14-18 days will be blamed on Trump rally.
3. Can no longer blame riots and demonstrations for any spread in other areas.
The only way Biden loses is if he dies before election.
Trump does not need to energize his base.
He need swing voters.
He is alienating swing, suburban voters. Watch his approval numbers. He stays out of public view, his approval numbers begin to rise. He comes out in public, opens his mouth, his approval numbers decline to previous low number. Happens every time he is out of contact other than twitter.
Just keep Biden locked up. Blame the pandemic. Dont debate. Use t.v. campaign ads. The moderate independent voter that does not like Trump will accept Biden staying out of public due to pandemic.
Now all this changes if the pandemic is gone by October. You say it is fading. I doubt it. We will see in October.
“Tulsa stupid because.
1. Moderate/independent voters”
Will not remember in a few weeks when Covid goes away.
“2. Any increase in cases in Tulsa area within 14-18 days will be blamed on Trump rally.”
Death’s and hostpitalizations are down.
“3. Can no longer blame riots and demonstrations for any spread in other areas.”
There is no appreciable riot effect either.
The only way rioters impact C19 is pointing out the hypocracy of the left.
“The only way Biden loses is if he dies before election.”
Or few on the far left or center show up to vote.
Biden has something like a 30pt enthusiasm gap.
You can pretty much count on 80% of Trump supporters voting.
You can’t count on 50% of Biden supporters.
The entire Democratic bet is on the ANTI-trump vote.
We already know that many of the bernie bros are sitting this out.
Of those who were out protesting – only a tiny portion of them are voting.
“Trump does not need to energize his base.”
Actually he does – there is alot of anger among many republicans.
Right now Tucker Carlson could beat Trump.
Carlson is beating up the GOP for kowtowing to the mob.
And his ratings are skyrocketting.
The most successful thing democrats have done with this Floyd mess, is get republicans politicians to not defend their base.
“He need swing voters.”
To stay home.
“He is alienating swing, suburban voters. Watch his approval numbers.”
His approval numbers are identical to Obama’s at this time.
“He stays out of public view, his approval numbers begin to rise. He comes out in public, opens his mouth, his approval numbers decline to previous low number. Happens every time he is out of contact other than twitter.”
Tulsa was not a slam dunk for him – but it was a good start.
Expect to see more – alot more. It is what Trump does, and it works.
“Just keep Biden locked up. Blame the pandemic.”
Only works for a while.
Only works when Trump is NOT out campaigning.
The more Trump does in public the weaker Biden looks.
“Dont debate.”
That would be wise for Biden – but he already agreed to 3 debates.
The odds of Biden surviving a Debate with Trump are nil.
“Use t.v. campaign ads.”
Who watches them ?
Who watches TV ?
In every media that i get hit with a political add today – I change channels or shut it down.
“The moderate independent voter that does not like Trump will accept Biden staying out of public due to pandemic.”
The pandemic is nearly over.
Regardless so long as Trump is out and campaigning the pressure on Biden will rise.
“Now all this changes if the pandemic is gone by October.”
By early august. Look at other countries.
If it was just starting in TX and FL it would be over by early Sept.
According to Wapo US deaths peaked mid april.
We have had a very long tail, deaths are 1/4 of the peak.
There are only two possibilities
this is nearly burned out and the lockdowns are slowing the burnout.
This is not even close to over and the lockdowns are dramatically slowing the spread.
The later is not consistent with the fact that NY appears to be done, that spain and italy are near done.
We will get brief increases in cases – because our rate of testing is 6 times higher, and because there will be small increases as we come out of lockdown.
Mostly it appears we are seeing much more of the former than the latter.
We are seeing increases in places where we have higher testing.
In a few places we have seen VERY small increases in hospitalizations.
Deaths continue to drop slowly.
This is over. Most people either know that – or they do not care because they have learned that nearly all the deaths are old people. That is bad and we should have done better.
But people are not going to lock themselves up for another month to accomplish nothing.
Their not old. They are going to stay away from those who are, and they are going back to normal.
And that is incredibly bad news for Democrats.
I am not only predicting a Trump victory – I am predicting large republican gains in the areas Democrats have failed.
As for masks – and everything else.
It needs to be a personal choice – and should have been from the start.
I have no problem with stores requiring masks.
I have no problem with stores taking peoples temps and turning them away if they have a fever or symptoms.
I have no problem with government quarantining people who are actually sick.
I have no problem with govenrment fining people who are out in public with symptoms.
Those are all legitimate.
I think it is wise for people to wear masks when they are near others.
Btu even there – the risks are different for different people.
I am in a higher risk group. I wear a mask when I am around people who I am not with every day.
My daughter is 23, If she gets this – it will not be nearly as bad as the flue and 1:5 as likely to kill her.
It is reasonable for her to make radically different choices than I.
This is significantly less dangerous to her than the Flu.
Dave “I am in a higher risk group. I wear a mask when I am around people who I am not with every day.”
Thank you, you are protecting others should you have it and be asymptomatic.
But please be careful. You are not protected from a maskless person who is asymptomatic and you come in contact with them.
They are still trying to figure out why the increase is happening in warm states and trying to decide if air conditioning is playing a role spreading the virus. Wearing a mask does not protect you from that either. Surgeons do not wear mask to not get infected by patients, they wear a mask to not infect patients with any germ they may have.
So when you see someone without a mask, consider them positive and avoid at all possible any contact regardless of 6ft. If your high risk, everyone is a risk if not wearing a mask.
“Thank you, you are protecting others should you have it and be asymptomatic.”
I do not have it.
We are nearly certain that asymptomatic people wither can;t spread it or can not spread it easily.
One has to be careful with C19 – lots of excellent generalizations are NOT absolutely true.
But we should rarely make decisions based on the exception rather than the norm.
I wear a mask in public to
Protect myself. I would not if I was 10 years younger. If I get C19 it will be 5 times as bad as if I was 10 years younger.
Protect my wife. She recently had a bout with cancer. It was minor, and the prognosis is excellent, but she is still recovering from minor surgery – at 60, what took days to recover at 40 takes weeks.
“But please be careful.”
I make my own choices.
You make yours.
my daughter makes hers.
“You are not protected from a maskless person who is asymptomatic and you come in contact with them.”
Perfectly – no.
We know as an example that even the best PPE will not protect you if you are around highly infectuous patients for many hours at a time.
At the same time we know that if you are within 6ft of an infected person for 10m I beleive you have about a 10% chance of infection.
And again asymptomatic people are poor transmitters.
I am taking far more care to distance myself from others than to wear a mask.
I wear the mask WHEN I am close to someone else for a protracted period.
When I have to sit down and talk to someone. When I am in a checkout line.
I take the mask off when there is no one arround. Most everyone does.
“They are still trying to figure out why the increase is happening in warm states and trying to decide if air conditioning is playing a role spreading the virus.”
No they are not.
There are several factors and they know them.
1) a six fold increase in testing.
2). more young people are going out – even in crowds, without protection.
The average age of new infections is 22. That implicates BOTH 1 + 2.
We are testing more people that are asymptomatic – we are not finding the people we were not finding before.
We have known for a long time that the actual cases are 10-20 times higher than reported.
Increased testing means even though C19 is burning out – we are identifying a larger percent of new infections than before.
“Wearing a mask does not protect you from that either. Surgeons do not wear mask to not get infected by patients, they wear a mask to not infect patients with any germ they may have.”
Do we have to go through the mask nonsense.
Masks are more effective in reducing spread from an infected person.
But they still work BOTH ways.
Surgeons are different – they are working over people they have cut open.
They do not want to introduce even a few germs to the inside of a persons body.
The most important protection humans have from disease is our SKIN.
Even C19 does not penetrate Skin. To get it, you have to get it into your eyes, your nose, your mouth.
“So when you see someone without a mask, consider them positive and avoid at all possible any contact regardless of 6ft. If your high risk, everyone is a risk if not wearing a mask.”
Ron – I have been here the past several months. I am as well informed as you.
I considered ANYONE that I am not arround regularly a threat. I keep my distance with EVERYONE.
I am also dosing up on Vitamin D and trying to spend time in the sun.
I am not “high risk” – I am moderate risk. I am 62 and I have mild asthma and reduced lung capacity because I had a right lower lobectomy on my Lungs in my 20’s because of a congenital problem with that lobe of my lungs.
I have been religious about respiratory infections for decades.
Even if I just get a mild case of C19 – I will likely get follow on bacterial and other infections.
I religiously get the flu vaccine. If I catch the flu – it is always much worse than most people.
Even though the Flu usually passes in 7 days, I have picked something else up in the mean time.
I do not need C19 to kill me to have a really bad experience. If I get it I could be laid up for 2 months with one respiratory infection following another.
I am careful about the flu – why would I be incautious abotu something 5 times worse for the average person my age ?
At the same time if My daughter gets it – the worse problem is that she might infect her parents or her boyfreind (he has health problems)
We all live in the same house, but we eat at opposite ends of the table, and we socialize from a distance – as my daughter goes to target to work every day.
She wears a mask 100% of the time at work and engages in excessive hygene – not because she is a risk to herself, but because she is near certain regularly exposed, and does not want to bring in home.
“As for mask, that needs to be a local issue with enforcement teeth. Up to $1000 fine for first offense. Goes up each time after. They are doing that in Boone N.C. But it can not be a national mandate like Biden wants to do because many states do not need it. many counties within states do not need it. Even in California, I suspect there are many counties with few cases. Its a local issue that local leaders need to take by the B—s and enforce!”
So the next black man killed by police is going to be because he refused to wear a mask ?
If you make law as you note, you must enforce it. Enforce means men with guns. It ultimately means killing people.
Look at the video of Rayshard Brooks.
You can talk about “descaliting” and all kinds of things the officers MIGHT have done differently. But nearly all fall into NOT enforcing the law.
Nothing is different when it is masks.
When you say enforce mask laws – does that mean the cops should chase someone down ?
What if they resist ?
The tiniest law will end up with people dead if they refuse to comply.
How are seat belt laws enforced? And that only protects the person, not anyone else in the car with them.
“How are seat belt laws enforced? And that only protects the person, not anyone else in the car with them.”
They aren’t. In my state the police can not pull you over for a seat belt violation, and can not cite you unless you admit not wearing a seat belt.
Well in N.C. they can. So we get a $75.00 fine for not protecting ourselves, but we can run all over town with C-19 without a mask and possibly harm everyone we come in contact with.
If you have symptoms or have been exposed to someone with C19 – you should be tested, and if you test positive you should be quarantined.
Regardless is you have symptoms, you should self quarantine.
Those are real obligations. If you have reason to know that you are a danger to others – then you have a duty to protect others.
If you do not have symptoms – wearing a mask is about protecting yourself from others, that is a choice you get to make for yourself.
I would absolutely provide services – financial support, food and other delivery for those who are infected.
I would also quarantine them, and I would punish them – including jailing them if they refused quarantine.
Masks fall entirely into the domain of choice – if you are not infected – masked or not you are no risk to others.
The evidence of asymptomic infection is very poor.
If you have C19 but do not know it because you have very weak or no symptoms, it appears that someone must be in your presence for hours to get infected.
Regardless, we can not impose a duty on people at random.
The duty to protect others from yourself requires that you either know you are a danger, or have reason to know.
I would highly encourage people to wear masks when they are going to be in close proximity to others.
But i have no right to do so by force.
I have not seen the entire video – only clips. But an elderly gentleman is being prosecuted for agrevated assault against another elderly gentleman for refusing to allow him onto a small elevator with him.
Absent something more forceful in the actual video than the clips – I see nothing wrong with this persons conduct.
He stood at the door of the elevator held his arm out bent at the elbow and used it like a car bumper to push others trying to get into the elevator with him back from the door.
The elevator was very small. And I suspect current rules would have limited it to a single occupant.
Legitimately barring others access is not assault.
“As to your idea that people want a strong man, that may be true to some extent for some people. But the nation as a whole does not want a Strongman, that is something different.”
It is not an idea. It is a historical pattern. The higher the levels of chaos in a country the more willing people are to tolerate even demand a authoritarian leader.
This is how Musollini and hitler and stalin and mao gained power.
“The Tulsa rally was not not strong leadership, it was an irresponsible and insane action by a delusional out of control narcissist. A majority of Americans can tell that and that is not what they want. trump is not Churchill, he is not the man who has sized up a problem correctly and responded with clarity. He is a man who has made the problem worse at every stage. A strong man who can lead in America today is not some kind of demagogic lunatic.”
Robby – no one cares what you say.
Is Trump a “strong leader” – he is not Churchill or FDR. He is certainly a stronger leader than Carter or Obama.
And Biden compared to Biden, Trump is a very strong leader.
Regardless, you keep nit picking.
No one expects that Tulsa will impact left wing nuts positively.
Trump got fewer than expected live on site participants – but he got 12.5M viewers.
Is anyone paying any attention to Basement Bunker Biden ?
“Now, in your world COVID is fading”
No in the real world.
Wapo has nationwide Deaths declining
They had one recent spike and that was due to NJ dumping 1800 previously unreported deaths.
While C19 is ACTUALLY fading – as it has everywhere eventually.
More importantly it is fading from our concern.
The majority of people are returning to their normal lives.
We are each making slightly different accomodations.
Some of us are taking baby steps, some are jumping in to the pool in the deep end.
And that is not unreasonable. If you are under 30 – C19 is about 500% LESS serious than the flu. If you are between 55 and 65 it is about 500% MORE serious.
Each of us has different risk levels. If you are young and healthy – you should be doing whatever you want. In fact you NEVER should have been restricted.
Regardless, whether you like it or not people are choosing to go on with their lives.
Many are choosing to ignore even the minimal dictats of their states.
And short a spike in deaths – which has not happened, they are not going back.
Maybe there is a blue/red pattern to this – maybe not – it does not matter.
People are fed up with the C19 nonsense and they are returning to their lives.
And you can not stop them.
“Tulsa rally”
Thus far the real world data – not your feelings. Shows no changes as a result of rallies or protests. The death rate is low and declining. the hospitalization rate is low.
New cases are in younger people and are asymptomatic, and most likely an artifact of 6 times greater testing. There is probably a small increase in cases – do to younger people going out more, but that is not causing a problem.
“was a good and safe and sensible and proper thing to do and its health consequences are just the overactive left wing nut imagination of people like me. History is not going to be kind to that idea.”
History is already being written by real world data – and it is not kind to you.
“No Priscilla, I am not exploiting COVID for political gain by saying this.”
I have no idea if what you are saying is politically motivated – but it is wrong.
“I am describing reality.”
Nope.
Lots of data on rising violence.
Though i noted another point.
You can get fired for tweeting “all lives matter”
But threaten to murder cops, extradite Trump to Iran, or any of myriads of forms of left wing hate speech and …. nothing.
All this left wing nut snowflake nonsense is incredibly lopsided.
Kids who need a safe space with a companion rabbit to endure the fact that Heather MacDonald is speaking on their campus, have no problem screaching the most violent and loathsome epitaphs at those they disagree with
If it were not for hypocracy the left would have no values at all.
https://www.city-journal.org/ferguson-effect-inner-cities
Yup, no economic recovery at all.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/07/02/us_adds_48_million_jobs_as_unemployment_falls_to_111_143600.html
Just incase you are still claiming HCQ was stupid
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/02/michigan-henry-ford-health-study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-lowers-covid-19-death-rate/5365090002/
The tulsa rally was idiotic for many reasons. The largest is that it will get innocent people sick or dead who did not go to the rally but encountered some infected person who got their infection there. Yes, COVID is going up sharply in Tulsa since the rally (and was going up prior to it too). This from David Frum:
“A Washington Post report on June 27 captures Trump’s culpability with horrible aptness. The city of Tulsa, Oklahoma, has been enforcing social-distancing rules, and for good reason. From June 1 to June 15, new COVID-19 cases in the state jumped from 67 in a day to 186. In advance of Trump’s rally in Tulsa on June 20, city employees affixed do not sit here please stickers to every other seat in the stadium venue. Trump campaign workers were captured on video removing the stickers so that Trump could cram attendees closer together. On June 26, Oklahoma reported 396 new infections in a single day.
Trump’s rally may not directly account for all those new cases. But Trump’s elevation of the needs of his own ego over the well-being of even his strongest supporters is profoundly implicated in the virus’s powerful June comeback.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/this-is-trumps-plague-now/613633/
“The tulsa rally was idiotic for many reasons.”
Mistly because you say so.
“The largest is that it will get innocent people sick or dead who did not go to the rally but encountered some infected person who got their infection there. Yes, COVID is going up sharply in Tulsa since the rally (and was going up prior to it too).”
There is no increase in deaths or hospitalizations.
There is no unique increase in OK compared to the increases in other states where C19 did not burn out yet. OK still has a tiny fraction of the deaths per capita or infections per capita of the rest of the country.
“This from David Frum:”
David Frum – the epidemiologist ? The Doctor ? No that would be David Frum the never Trumper.
“Trump’s rally may not directly account for all those new cases. But Trump’s elevation of the needs of his own ego over the well-being of even his strongest supporters is profoundly implicated in the virus’s powerful June comeback.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/this-is-trumps-plague-now/613633/”
So a few thousand Trump voters gather politically – and you wig out and call Trump a murderer.
But millions riot and protest – and that is OK with you.
Sorry Robby – your hypocrisy is showing.
If Trump has done something bad in Tulsa – then BLM is Hitler.
There have been no significant increases in most of the places where there were riots – because in most of those places C19 is nearly burned out and even higher testing rates is not going to show much in new cases.
In states like OK where population densities are lower and C19 spreads more slowly and takes longer to burn out higher testing rates will show more cases.
Oh My 389 cases in OK, NJ added 1800 DEATHS in one day – Trump wasn’t anywhere near.
Ron, I most likely miss many of your comments addressed to me. They get buried in Dave’s anal hemorrhage of denialist graffiti on every sentence I write. Which I just skim if I even bother to read his stuff at all, but your posts get buried as well.
Sorry Robby, but if there were not so many false and fallacious statements in every one of your posts it would not take so many words to disprove them.
So far I have made one mistake on C19 – I predicted that we would be able to stop it at our borders. But we now know it was in CA in early Jan (and probably much early), and in NY before Trump banned travel from China.
Other than that I have been pretty accurate.
We will see more cases as we open up.
We will see more cases as we test more.
Btu we are seeing very small increases in hospitalizations in some places,
and no increases in deaths.
You claim to have an advanced Stem degree. Do the math.
In Mid April we peaked at about 40K new cases/day.
But we know the actual new cases was 10-20 times greater – so 400K to 800K/day.
nearly all mild or asymptomatic.
Today we have 41K new cases – but we are doing 6 times as much testing So the actual number of new cases per day is between 68K and 132K
Or 1/5 that of the april Peak.
How can you tell this is correct ? The proportion of cases they are getting now is far more asymptomatic.
Hospitalization rates have ticked up SLIGHTLY in a FEW places.
That is a consequence of a SMALL increase as we release from lockdown in places that are farther from herd immunity.
Your a smart person Robby – you know that there is only one permanent way to end an epidemic – herd immunity. That can be acheived by infections or by a vaccine.
So long as there is one infected person and enough people who are not immune – the epidemic will continue.
Lockdowns MIGHT slow it. Social distancing MIGHT slow it. But nothing stops it until the few who are infected can not get to anyone they can infect.
There is no credible health expert who claimed otherwise.
Even hospital grade PPE used religiously will not prevent medical staff from getting infected – if they are involved in treating infectuous patients long enough.
“Which I just skim if I even bother to read his stuff at all”
If I only allow information from inside my bubble I will never have to face the self contradictions within.
Dave, you really do not know how to argue effectively. So much effort, so little of value. You mostly make laughably bad arguments that persuade no one. You dispute nearly every molecule I write, but your stuff is so ridiculous 90+ percent of the time that if you actually say anything sensible while in argument mode, it gets lost in the pile of your low value crap.
You and trump believe that DOVID is fading in spite of a mountain of evidence that it is accelerating again. Me saying it isn’t fading, which is clearly an accurate statement, we just had the highest number of news cases ever in a single day, gets a fact free mocking of my science doctorate as your response. Its not as clever as you seem to believe. Noisy hyperactive denialism and delusional nonsense, your life’s work. Silly man.
Write many fewer but much better conceived words if you want to persuade anyone.
Robby.
A long critique of how I argue by someone who so rarely makes an actual argument, much less a valid one, is laughable.
I am not interested in advice on posting, arguing, writing by someone who bought and sold the collusion delusion.
You are correct – I will never persuade you.
It is impossible to persuade people who operate on faith and feelings, rather than facts logic reason.
“You dispute nearly every molecule I write”
Because it is so factually and logically poor.
You and trump believe that COVID is fading in spite of a mountain of evidence that it is accelerating again.”
But it is not – and it is obvious that it is not. And someone who earned the degree you claim to have would know that.
You claim that neither you nor democrats are seeking to make political hay out of C19.
But it is clear you are. If you do 6 times as much testing on something that you know you WERE missing 90-95% of the cases – are you surprised to see a rise.
There is a real SMALL increase recently – the natural result of opening up.
We are far enough from the start of the increase that we should be seeing a dramatic increase in hospitalizations if there really was a Tsunami of new infections.
We are only seeing SMALL increases in hispitalizations in some places.
We are barely far enough to start seeing deaths increase. They are not.
The most reasonable explanation is what I gave – better testing combined with a small increase to be expected from reopening.
Other possible explanations:
The virus has mutated and it is far less harmful – we would know that if it were true.
Much improved treatment – that Might explain no increase in deaths, but it does not increase the very small increase in hospitalizations.
We do have better in hospital treatments. We do not have better treatments to prevent hospitalization – unless you have ceded that HCQ works.
Put simply – you are clearly trying to use bogus information to cause hysteria.
It is not working. Minor adjustments have been made to protect hospitial capacity and aside from that the states you claim are spiking – are continuing to reopen.
I would also note that the largest spike in the country by far was in CA – not TX, not OK.
CA has had C19 longer than any state. It has been locked down longer than anywhere.
Trump has not been anywhere near CA.
Why is CA spiking ? Why have new cases in CA nearly doubled ?
You say Republicans are in denial – please explain CA ?
Theory A – increased testing
explains ALL the rise in new cases.
Theiry B – It is all Trump’s fault, or Red states reopened too soon
Does not explain the dramatic rise in CA.
You say my arguments are bogus.
A hypothesis that does not explain the results is falsified – you should recall that from HS science.
“Me saying it isn’t fading, which is clearly an accurate statement,”
Because you say so ?
“we just had the highest number of news cases ever in a single day,”
with 6 times as much testing on a disease that is missed 90-95% of the time.
MATH – that means the actual number of new cases is 1/5 the peak.
This is barely 5th grade math.
“gets a fact free mocking of my science doctorate as your response.”
Please return it wherever you got it. As well as your HS degree.
“Its not as clever as you seem to believe. Noisy hyperactive denialism and delusional nonsense, your life’s work. Silly man.”
A strong of insults is not an argument.
“Write many fewer but much better conceived words if you want to persuade anyone.”
Sieg Heil!
Robby,
Will you agree that if there is a real increase in C19, if we have ACTUALLY returned to higher levels than the peak over 2 months ago, that WILL result in a return to the same level of hospitalizations – within 4-10 days from the start of the increase ? And a return to the same level of deaths within 14 days of the start of the increase ?
Or the virus has mutated and become less deadly ?
If you have another explanation that is consistent with the data, please provide it.
You are sensitive when I expect that someone with a STEM degree can understand math.
Either find an error in my logic or math, or find an alternative explanation that better fits the facts.
To be clear – I beleive there has been an increase in infections.
I do not beleive the current 40K+/day number is correct – I beleive the real number is closer to 70-80K/day – maybe higher.
But the number in mid April was not correct at 40K/day either – it was closer to 400K-800K/day.
We have had a massive and well known problem from the start in Wuhan.
We have known we are undercounting actual cases by a large margin.
And atleast in the US we are overcounting deaths – probably by a factor of 2.
Or more accurately we are not counting C19 deaths using the same criteria we use for the Flu or other diseases.
One of the reasons that western countries have tended to see such long tails – an epidemic should follow a logistical curve and that is not what we are seeing.
Is because testing has improved by and order of magnitude over time.
More positive tests with higher rates of testing does NOT mean more actual cases.
You only need 5th grade math to work that out.
The govenors in most of the states with increases are not panicing, they are not reversing course.
Either they understand 5th grade math – or more likely they have an advisor they trust who does, Or they are making the most catastrophic political blunder EVER.
I will agree with you on one thing:
If we are REALLY seeing a 2nd wave, if we suddenly jump to 250K deaths,
no republican will get elected dog catcher.
That part of your analysis is correct.
In fact on many of the claims you make – if your assertions are all true – your predictions are correct – but your assertions are not – and there is enough evidence to know that.
There is no C19 second wave.
People do not like to see statues being torn down.
We are seeing a growing increase in violent crime – and the victims will be black.
People are sympathetic to blacks and to BLM as a concept. They are turned off by the BLM organization agenda.
Somehow a civil war analogy seems appropriate.
This moment is Gettysburg – and the Democrats are still on the losing side.
This moment is the high water mark. Pickets charge has ended.
Democrats did not breach at Cemetery ridge.
You and I can fight over C19. but soon enough there will be no hiding from facts.
One of us is eating crow. Hospitalizations and death rates will rise proportionate to the increase in cases – and I will be wrong. Or they will not – and you will be.
Increased violent crime will swing the pendulum from the police as evil to the police as critical. That will have political consequences.
Many republicans – including Trump are behind the curve on that. But democrats are so far on the wrong side it is not funny.
A spike in violent crime will discredit the entire democratic agenda.
If defund the police is insantiy – why is M4A sane ? Free college ?
Why is anything that democrats propose ?
If the economy does not recover – Trump will lose in a landslide. We agree on that.
If it does he will win in a landslide – I would hope you grasp that.
And it is already self evident the economy is coming back.
The media, Democrats and the deep state have bet once again on Russia nonsense – now with the bounty garbage,
Even the leftists of the rising got that the purpose of this – besides wounding Trump was to keep us in Afghanistan.
Even if the story is entirely true – which it is obviously not, most of us do not want stupidity from Russia, to derail getting out of Afghanistan. US deaths in Afghanistan since the February deal have been incredibly low.
There will be more bad news for the collusion delusion before the election.
Biden has agreed to 3 debates with Trump. If they happen Biden will do badly.
If they do not Biden will do badly.
Trump will be out campaigning in public for the next 4 months.
if Biden does not come out of his bunker – you will need Trump to catch C19 and die, or Biden will look like a coward.
Absent a plaugue of bloody froggs raining from the sky – the election is over.
You just have not figured it out.
Like I said. You could save yourself a lot of time but simply posting: “I, Dave, am a delusional nut living in my own alternate reality.”
How many of your words do you think I bothered reading? If you guessed more than ten you are as narciss as your hero trump.
If you want to be heard by someone, go downtown with a sign like one of those street preachers with some literature and stand on a corner and do your thing.
Outta here, will catch up with you sometime before November. If trump should happen to lose I will be amused to see your song and dance of denial.
I wonder what the COVID death toll will be by that date and how you will manage to deny it.
“Like I said. You could save yourself a lot of time but simply posting: “I, Dave, am a delusional nut living in my own alternate reality.””
When you can not argue the facts or logic – insult your opponent.
“How many of your words do you think I bothered reading?”
Why do I care ?
“If you guessed more than ten you are as narciss as your hero trump.”
Read, what you are writing. You seem to think That I am obligated to write for you ?
And you think I am the narcisist ?
“If you want to be heard by someone, go downtown with a sign like one of those street preachers with some literature and stand on a corner and do your thing.”
Did I ask for your advice ?
“Outta here, will catch up with you sometime before November. If trump should happen to lose I will be amused to see your song and dance of denial.”
And when he does not ?
Have you learned anything from the “collusion delusion” ?
Robby, we see repeatedly – when reality conflicts with your world view – you bend reality.
“I wonder what the COVID death toll will be by that date and how you will manage to deny it.”
Why does that matter ? 2.8M people die in the US every year. We do not burn the economy to the ground over that.
I will be happy to discus with you effective means to reduce C19 deaths that
Actually work.
Do not do more harm than good.
That should be trivial for us to agree on.
But apparently it is not.
https://twitter.com/michaelhenry123/status/1278684152817213440
So, I had to catch up on all of the comments from the past couple of days:
“Tulsa stupid because.
1. Moderate/independent voters
2. Any increase in cases in Tulsa area within 14-18 days will be blamed on Trump rally.
3. Can no longer blame riots and demonstrations for any spread in other areas.”
~ Agreed.
I think that the Trump campaign has vastly underestimated the panic and fear that exists in the country.. Even now, as the reopening and expanded testing has contributed to more people becoming infected (Didn’t we know this would happen? Wasn’t the lockdown meant to “slow the spread” and keep the death rate down? Of course it was, but the narrative changed), the death rate continues to plummet, a major new study has indicated that HCQ is highly effective against the virus, and remdisivir is as well. Deaths are going DOWN, even as infections are going UP. Right now, stats on covid death rates are evolving in a way that may eventually show that covid is far less lethal than we feared. This is a very good article on what we know and don’t know, at least as far as the Texas spike is concerned. https://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=53858
The reporting on this has made it it very difficult for the average person to judge how much risk they are incurring, if they go to something like an indoor rally. So, a prudent person would decide to wait until more information is available.
“Either masks work or they don’t. If you’re going to compel mask use, then open everything up. Otherwise this isn’t public health but tyranny. If the mask is the antidote here, then give us our life back.”
~ Also agreed. I wear a mask everywhere, although i take it off when I’m outside and easily able to maintain social distance. I don’t do it to avoid catching covid, since I have been tested positive for antibodies, but in order to make others comfortable in my presence, and to take seriously their concerns. My doctor, who is an infectious disease specialist says masks are of limited value, but, if everyone wears them in high risk situations, it may help reduce transmission. Good enough for me.
Anyway, this comment is long enough.
I would bet that the panic and anxiety over C19 tends to split along political lines.
Tucker Carlson is skyrocketting at the moment.
He is using the riots, arson, vandalism, … in the same way the left is using C19.
He is tapping into and amplifying the fears of ordinary people of anarchy and chaos.
And it is working.
The left has tried innumerable times to “cancel” Carlson – and failed.
I beleive he is the single most viewed Political talking head today.
Further Carlson is attacking Republicans for under reacting to the lawlessness of the left.
While I beleive that Carlson is over reacting, he is still reflecting the perception of enormous numbers of people.
An enormous number of people are very uneasy. The left is terrifying and dangerous.
People are losing the jobs, being publicly humiliated, subject to death threats,
merely for saying all live matter. Or saying anything that conflicts with the left mantra.
This is one of many reasons I beleive the polls are wrong right now.
We are learning that speaking at all – much less honestly, is dangerous.
And it is dangerous for all of us.
We are not seeing a conflict between Der Sturmer and Antifa.
Those being silenced are often on the left.
There is a cottage industry right now of black men making videos that purport to portray terrified leftist white women as racist.
I can not think of a faster way for democrats to lose the election than to alienate leftist white women.
It is increasingly evident – and we knew some of this from Wuhan before this got here,
That C19 is much less severe than the Flu for people under 30.
We should have understood from the start that we need to take extraordinary measures to protect the small group that is actually at serious risk, and let the rest especially younger people go about their ordinary lives.
There has never been a respiratory infection that was defeated by any other means than herd immunity.
the lockdown has likely made things worse rather than better, by slowing the rate at which we develop immunity.
https://babylonbee.com/news/federal-prison-hires-top-rated-italian-bodyguard-hillena-clintonelli-to-protect-ghislaine-maxwell?utm_content=buffer341db&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Sometimes funny is not funny.
https://babylonbee.com/news/democrat-governors-frantically-fund-the-police-again-after-realizing-they-need-them-to-enforce-lockdowns?utm_content=buffer8af52&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Tucker Carlson is the prime voice of a political point of view that I disagree with.
But he is a vocal advocate of free speech and amazingly dominates punditry despite repeated efforts to “cancel” him.
One of the things this article notes is that not only is Carlson – and Fox dominating the over 60 demographic – they also own the key 25-59 demographic
https://outkick.com/tucker-carlson-record-fox-news/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-are-more-troubled-by-police-actions-in-killing-of-george-floyd-than-by-violence-at-protests-poll-finds-11591534801
And how do you think they will feel in November is the rate of violent crime rate remains doubled or more which is highly likely ?
And separately – how does this not reflect badly on these people ?
There have been more blacks killed by rioters, than unarmed blacks killed by police in 2020.
And that does not count the hundreds of millions of dollars in damages and the rush of people leaving these cities.
I will credit these “protests” for being less violent than expected – but that in itest is pretty damning.
We saw only a few weeks earlier that it was possible to protest government – infact engage in armed protest of government, without looting, arson, violence, and destruction.
So we know it can be done.
We were told by the left wing media how “scary” these protests were, Yet, nothing bad happened.
Now we are told by the same media how peaceful these protests are – and yet there is 1/2B of damage, hundreds of stores – mostly in black communities destroyed – and many not coming back ever – it typically takes decades for the poor neighborhoods in a city to recover from riots.
So I guess you are saying that we only care when blacks are killed by police ?
Not when kids are killed in driveby’s ? Nit when black communties are damaged for years ?
I presume because you posted this story that you share that view ?
Honestly – I think the wisest thing we could do would be to allow minorities communities to determine their own government, their own policing.
OOPS – to a large part they already do, and what they do not is done by their saviours – democrats.
While the data does not support the “systemic racism” nonsense. Honestly I do not care.
Whatever changes these communities wish to make to their governance, to their policing,
that is up to them. They are the ones who will have to live with the results.
As to your article/poll more broadly:
Biden can not figure out where the h#!! he stands.
Democrats seem perfectly content to give BLM the cities they claim they want.
And Trump appears to be moving toward running as the law and order candidate in 2020.
I guess we will find out in November whether that strategy works.
Personally, i am glad that no matter who wins in 2020, that defund the police is not coming to my community.
I bet the same is true for every other poster here.
I think it is pretty hypocritical of all of us to experiment with policing of minority communities without any thought of changing our own.
So how about it Robby, Jay, Rick, Ron, Priscilla – should we defund our own police too ?
Do not get me wrong – I have lots to complain about policing – and a multi-decade record of advocating for changes to policing.
But there is not one reform on my long list that I would move forward on if it meant doubling the violent crime rate – how about the rest of you ?
I was wondering what had happened to old David Brooks so I googled him. This is a very thoughtful piece on why some police wind up committing violent responses to citizens. Something here that should resonate with both liberal and conservative viewpoints. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/how-police-brutality-gets-made/613030/
There are interesting things in the Brooks article.
But I grow very tired of the media jumping the shark on systemic racism.
There are absolutely some cultural problems in our policing – but despite decades of efforts, no one has actually found a credible signal that demonstrates “systemic racism”.
Policing as a whole is authoritarian and if you challenge the authority of police they are prone to escalate – they are TAUGHT to escalate. Policing is “systemically authoritarian” it is “systemically confrontational”.
We can – but likely will not, discuss reforming that.
But change is not going to happen overnight, and there are only two problems with policing that should be blamed on the officers themselves.
The first is that there ARE a few bad apples,
The second is that those bad apples would not remain but for the silence of other officers.
All other problems with policing
ARE institutional and systemic.
They ARE NOT racist.
And though policing can be improved it is NEVER going to be warm and fuzzy.
If you pass a law, ultimately men with guns will enforce it, and when someone resists sufficiently – they will be killed.
That MUST be true of EVERY LAW, and EVERY REGULATION.
It is not and should not be up to the police when to enforce the law or not.
The responsibility rests with US not to make laws we are not prepared to kill those who resist strongly enough.
Which is my last point – aside from the two problems with police officers I pointed out the systemic problems of policing rest with US.
“It’s interesting that states with the highest numbers of police shootings per capita are in the West, where the gun ethos is more common: New Mexico, Alaska, Oklahoma, Arizona, Colorado, and Nevada. The states with the lowest rates are in the East: Rhode Island, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Jersey.”
And yet the heinous racist police actions are NOT for the most part taking place “where the gun ethos is more common”.
They nearly all occur in democrat, minority majority cities. Mineapolis, Atlanta, Chicago, LA, Seattle, New York, Baltimore.
In many instances they occur in places with the strictest gun control in the country.
“The pressure brought by Black Lives Matter, and the reforms that police departments are instituting in response, is having an effect.”
FALSE, police shootings (and brutality complaints) and crime rates have ALL been declining since the mid 80’s. BLM had absolutely nothing to do with that.
Robby,
There is lots of excellent information in Brooks article – things I have been pointing out for decades.
There are a few errors what mar weaken the article – if you thread a false narrative of racism through and otherwise excellent article you diminish trust in the rest of the article.
The same is true of the brief false digression about western states and gun culture and about the nonsense that BLM has had an influence.
Frankly, I do not think Brooks stressed enough the negative impacts of the militarization of policing. Nearly every police force in this country has a SWAT team – yet there are maybe half a dozen instances in the entire country each year where a SWAT team is warranted.
A police force that has a SWAT team finds a way to use them.
SWAT teams are “SHOCK and AWE”
Maybe that is acceptable – if the only victims are criminals.
But SWAT raid subjects the entire community in the vicinity to a military SHOCK and AWE raid – it is traumatizing and alienating. It does NOT bond the police and communities.
The other think Brooks did not stress enough is “policing for profit”
This was a huge deal in Fergusson, it is a big deal in NYC, I am told it is a big deal in Mineapolis. Again the police do not bond with the communities they serve when they are wringing cash from them to fund government.
BOTH of these problems are not problems cause by law enforcement – they are problems caused by GOVERNMENT.
What I find incredibly facile at the moment is that we have protestors ranting about “Defunding the police” – often it is the very city counsels who implimented the policies – like policing for profit, that are the cause of the problems.
Again – despite my criticism’s I think Brook’s article is overall excellent.
One area he addresses which is of great importance is that we know that policing works best when the police are considered part of the communities they serve.
Every policy that sets them up as outsiders, that encourages the us/them mentality is a problem.
The fact is that the number of bad police killings per year is NOT the problem. The numbers are minuscule. More minority toddlers are killed in drive buys in Chicago in a year than bad police shootings in the entire country.
But in many many instances the police are not considered by the communities they serve to be part of that community, and the police do not consider themselves part of that community.
That is a big part of the problem right now. It is also likely the most fundamental next step to reducing crime.
The last thing I want to address is the dangers of policing.
While Brooks fixates on the lesson that policing is dangerous that is drilled into police officers. And it is true that Policing is not as dangerous as High seas fishing or cell phone antenna repair. It is one of the most dangerous professions that employs 1M people.
Police have good reason to be scared – there is good reason to train them in the use of weapons, there is good reason to train them in self defense.
You can hold whatever opinion you wish of the Rayshard Brooks shooting. But you can not watch the video without grasping that the outcome could easily have gone horribly wrong for the two cops. Brooks was big and strong and went for their weapons and managed to get one of their Tasers. He could have taken one of their guns, or their Billy Clubs.
Regardless, most of us do not have jobs that could require us to wrestle with a big man, or someone crazy, or someone high at any moment.
Well, you took that pretty well.
No institutional racism in policing? First of all, there is no clear definition of this term and people can mean a lot of things by it. To make myself clear I do not see institutional racism in America in any deliberate manner outside of policing. In fact, our legal system got rid of almost anything like that in the 50s 60s and 70s. The system very often does not work in the favor of black citizens, but that is mostly because the system often does not work well for the poor, which blacks disproportionately are.
The basic thing is very well illustrated by what Sen Tim Scott talked about in an NPR piece I posted above. Constant pull overs and harassment. And he is an upper class and conservative representative of African Americans. How exactly can you so what what he said away? It just does not matter in your world. The poverty and perpetually decaying inner cities add to the perception that blacks and their white friends have that things are by far not right in America regarding race.
My light brown (highly intellectual, well dressed, polite, conservative leaning) friend in Vermont has been stopped and interrogated by cops who would not even identify themselves on country roads several times for no reason at all, for walking while black. You will say, so what. It is not so what to him.
When the cops do clearly go overboard and kill someone, black or white, they get off most often or are not even charged.
I am disgusted by rioters. I hate mobs. Left wing nut radicals like in the CHOP zone make me puke. And yes, now its also a COVID spreading disaster.
It does not change the fact that policing is the one area of society where it is very, very possible to see a race related pattern. Apparently so many people in the country have seen that in the Floyd case that they are more upset with the cops than they are with the rioters. That is a fact, by 2 to 1 Americans are more upset about the racial meaning of the Floyd murder than the reaction to it. Dismiss that all you want. You believe that will reverse itself by Nov. We will see.
Roby, I agree that DWB, WWB and all the other “activities while hlack” and being stopped and questioned has to stop.
But I also believe the black community has failed to create any movement that will make a difference or a lasting one.
How can meaningful change occur when you have people like Colin Kaeperneck, a communist sympathizer, as a face of your human rights movement. ALCU is a patchwork of multiple offices with little national movement. Liberal politicians doing nothing but using minorities to get reelected, all while supporting another group, corrupt police unions, to further their reelection efforts.
Change comes from positive actions. MLK used.nonviolent actions, not the current methods. MLK was a national leader. Blacks had a unified voice that today they lack. How can they rally behind a BLM movement, create an autonomous zone and then block police and EMT’s from responding to Horrace Anderson when he was shot and lay dying in the street? Was his black life not important?
The movement needs a strong national voice to organize local movements to work with local leaders to be effective.
“No institutional racism in policing?”
Not what I have said.
I have said there is no “Systemic racism” in policing.
Systemic and institutional are different.
Systemic racism is the pervasive racism of the majority of police.
Institutional racism is racism designed into the institution – it is not the racism of the police officers, but the racism of the system.
Minimum wage laws are a very real example of institutional racism.
They were imposed with the deliberate intent of making it harder for blacks to get jobs.
And from the 30’s when the first MW laws came about through to today, MW laws are racist by design and racist in effect.
Licensing laws are also examples of institutional racism. I am not familiar enough with their history – though I strongly suspect their origins are racist, regardless their effect is racist.
Most progressive programs are institutionally racist. The disastrous impact of great society programs on minorities being on example. Zoning is another example.
Large portions of the regulation that you celebrate was intentionally racist, more of it is in effect racist.
“No institutional racism in policing? First of all, there is no clear definition of this term and people can mean a lot of things by it. To make myself clear I do not see institutional racism in America in any deliberate manner outside of policing. In fact, our legal system got rid of almost anything like that in the 50s 60s and 70s. The system very often does not work in the favor of black citizens, but that is mostly because the system often does not work well for the poor, which blacks disproportionately are.”
Pretty much wrong from start to finish.
First “if people can mean alot of things by it” – there is no means of meaningful public discourse.
I have criticized you – and the left for the deliberate destruction of language – this is an example. If words have the same meaning for all of us – then we are all discussing the same thing, we are all deciding the same thing.
And the likelyhood is we can not get anywhere near a majority to agree.
PPACA is an example – though the overwhelming majority of people favored reform to healthcare, there was majority support for few if any components of PPACA.
If we can not agree on what this or that form of racism is – how do we have a proper public debate ?
The lefts deconstruction of meaning in words is specifically because it is possible to get majority even support majority support for each individuals personal definition, but no even majority support for anything held in common.
A perfect example of this is BLM support.
There are few people who would not agree that “Black Lives Matter”.
Though many of us oppose the violence and looting and arson. There is near universal support for “Black Lives Matter”.
I do not think there is one of us who if we had a magic want and could wave it and provide black communities with decent schools, good job opportunities, communities free of drugs and crime – we would gladly do so.
But there are no magic wands and wanting an outcome does not make it possible, nor justify what is done to acheive that outcome.
But only a tiny portion of us support the values of BLM the organization.
If you are arguing to use force to change something and you can not even clearly define what you seek to change – your actions are not moral.
I would agree that from the 50’s through the present we have purged systemic racism from our police forces.
We have NOT purged racism from our legal system.
There is no evidence of systemic racism in policing that is not the consequence of poor/shallow statistical analysis of the type that can always be used to prove anything you want.
There is evidence that criminal sentencing is systemically racist.
Further many of our laws are either facially racists – MW laws were created to keep blacks down, or racist in effect – such as occupational licensing laws.
I would completely agree that things do not work for the poor – and that minorities are disproportionately poor – and that is the root of most of the statistical error in claiming systemic racism. Nearly every statistic that claims poor blacks are very badly treated – poor whites are treated equally badly.
But I would also be very careful – because while crime correlates very highly to poverty.
We actually know that poverty does NOT cause crime.
The fundimental driving factor for crime is not how poor you are, but your perception of a disparity of opportunities between yourself and others.
Massive poverty does not result in high crime.
Crime is most rampant where those who have less live in reasonable proximity to those who have more, but see no opportunity for improvement.
I have been constantly pulled over and harassed by police.
Maybe not so much as Tim Scott. But quite alot.
I have had police officers threaten to impound my car, to jail me for the night.
This occurs pretty universally when I am pulled over – legitimately or otherwise, by an officer and things go off script.
I am not saying “so what” to what he says.
First, though being pulled over by a police officer is never pleasant, and it is always a bit dangerous – for everyone, and I have noted one or two particularly heinous police stops,
most of them actually go well – and they go well whether I am personally happy about the outcome. Whether they go badly depends on whether the officer is polite and professional and sticks to his job, or whether he is domineering and demanding and views everything as a challenge. and that has nothing to do with race. Mire unarmed whites are killed by police each year than blacks.
Finally – Tim Scott’s story is touching. Though clearly it did not touch any democrats. But what matters is the reform’s he proposed.
“The poverty and perpetually decaying inner cities add to the perception that blacks and their white friends have that things are by far not right in America regarding race.”
I would completely agree.
Just about every major city in this country has been managed by democrats for my entire lifetime. Many of them by black democrats.
Give me a good reason to beleive that those of us who do NOT live in poverty in cities should once again fund some program that ultimately makes things worse not better ?
Sorry, Robby – if poverty in the cities is the problem that needs fixed – it is YOUR problem.
Go Fix it.
“When the cops do clearly go overboard and kill someone, black or white, they get off most often or are not even charged.”
There were 9 unarmed blacks killed by police in 2019.
4 of those instances resulted in charges.
Of the remainer – the officer clearly had done their job – as an example if an unarmed person was shot while struggling to take an officers gun.
We all tend to forget that Micheal Jackson initially confronted the officer that killed him. That he reached through the window of the police car and tried to take the officers gun from him.
Sorry – Micheal Brown.
“It does not change the fact that policing is the one area of society where it is very, very possible to see a race related pattern”
False.
If you do not know that you are very poorly informed.
Ron, I understand your point, but I can also understand why it is rare that one wise charismatic leader becomes the voice of a disparate group of people.
During the civil rights movement in the 60s blacks had much more reason to be active as a united group. As Dave says, things today are better. They do not compare with segregation, they do not compare with the conditions in the 60s (and prior to that of course). That does not mean that there is nothing much further to change, but it does mean that one united black response is not as natural.
There were many black Civil Rights leaders, Malcolm X, Jesse Jackson, Abernathy, as well as King. Now it has all faded in our cultural memory, much like Reagan’s presidency has, into a good memory of a needed positive changes.
People were by no means so thrilled at the time.
When MLK was shot my parents informed me in the morning and asked what I thought about it. I was in 6th grade. My teacher was a conservative woman who had been painting King and the whole Civil Rights movement in dark light, rioters, crazy people. (Reminds me of something more modern). I told my parents that I guess it must be a good thing he was killed since King was making so much trouble. That was the impression I got from my teacher. I guess my parents went off to the school and had a talk with someone.
King is dead, he was martyred. I wonder how he would be remembered if he had lived. Perhaps much differently.
Alot that I would agree with.
The worse things are the easier it is to get people to come together and agree on what the problems are and what to do to solve them.
There are no leaders arrising – in pretty much anything today – because the problems are not overall that severe.
The exception to this is Trump. As I have said before – Trump is a reaction to the PC tactics of the left. There is a single leader because there is a single clear large problem and one person who has taken it on themselves to confront that.
This should also make it clear that americans as a whole think that this PC intolerance is a more serious problem than policing – or some clear leader would arrise.
But ultimately problems are not solved by leaders or government.
Racism has diminished over time not because of government – but inspite it.
You can claim whatever you want, but ultimately crime is a far greater problem for minority communities than issues with policing.
What we have seen through the entire Trump presidency is the left with the aide of the media trying to amplify small things into big things.
That can be done for brief periods. It can not be done permanently.
Even if everything you claim about C19 is true – people as slowly losing patience.
Even the Floyd protests are atleast partly an explosion of lockdown anger.
C19 is fading slowly – both in reality and from peoples minds.
There are few people who will be voting based on C19.
This Policing bruhaha will fade even faster.
This is little different from the ranting that occurs after every mass shooting.
For a few weeks On one side – gun sales skyrocket, on the other there is a cry for draconian legislation. And with time the issue fades.
Policing will take longer.
C19 will take longer still.
But they will fade – until the next epidemic, or heinous video of a police killing.
It’s an interesting article, Roby, and I agree with a lot of it. I do think that Brooks is a bit cavalier in his attitude toward the very real dangers that police face (for example, I think that a murderous person with a knife can, in fact, kill an officer with a gun, if that officer is reluctant to draw his weapon or is approached from behind. Especially if the officer is alone.) On the other hand, I agree with Brooks that police officers often begin their careers as idealists and become corrupted by the violence and danger that they face, sometimes on a daily basis.
Police reform is clearly something that would help to prevent some of the more egregious instances of brutality.
I’m wondering if you read the summary of the police reform bill proposed by Senator Tim Scott, and blocked by the Democrats (Joe Manchin and 2 others sided with Republicans). Nancy Pelosi called Scott’s bill the GOP’s attempt to “get away with George Floyd’s murder,” before putting forward a House bill, which had many of the identical reforms, and then refused allow any GOP amandments, essentially insuring that the Senate would refuse to consider it. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/politics/senate-police-reform-bill/index.html
It seems to me that, if there is a bipartisan desire to pass a police reform bill, yet one side refuses to debate or to compromise on any bill, whether it be their own or the other party’s, that they are simply playing politics with this issue, and they don’t really want anything to change.
So, that last paragraph is my opinion, which is open to debate. I’m fairly certain that you disagree with my take on this, and I am open to your argument. Was Scott wrong in being angered that Democrats would not debate or offer amendments to his bill? Were Democrats wrong in blocking it, then propsing a very similar bill? Isn’t the whole point of having two parties in Congress, that they will attempt to reach consensus on legislation which both sides believe is in the best interest of the public?
Priscilla, Scott has one reaction to things that happen to him because he is black. He has another reaction to the political events that affect him as a conservative. So, he is a member of two groups and behaves in the context of his group in different situations. Pelosi was wrong in her rhetoric, yes. Not helpful, even nasty.
But… are the Democrats really supposed to support a minimal police reform bill that does not go, in their opinion, far enough because Tim Scott is black?
It makes great theater to put Scott as the front man for the GOP. It will play well with both bases to either believe that if he supports the bill he must be honored by passing it or that if he supports the bill, well he is a conservative and deliberately did not join the black caucus and so is a sort of Uncle Tom. He has receive death threats and abuse nuts from both ideological sides.
Tim Scott is in the limelight and he is doing his best to be true to both his own racial experiences and his conservative beliefs. I empathize with his situation.
The rest of this police bill debate is politics in their usual form. I would love it if our politicians of both parties could work together productively. I am not going to blame one party and claim the other is just fine and sincere. They both could do better. The American public as of the moment truly wants something substantive done.
“But… are the Democrats really supposed to support a minimal police reform bill that does not go, in their opinion, far enough?”
They do not need to support it, All they need to do is not use a fillibuster.
The Senate and house bills would then be reconciled in a joint committee, and the result would get an up down vote.
And yes. I would support a reform bill that did not go far enough.
As a practical matter NO federal bill can “go far enough” there is no federal power over policing.
Further, the first rule of government should be the same as that of physicians – “first do no harm”.
The single most important thing that needs done federally – is to end qualified immunity.
That is dead with both parties.
The Next, would be ending the militarization of the police.
The last would be to end federal asset forfeiture.
There is little beyond those that is actually the domain of the federal government.
“It makes great theater to put Scott as the front man for the GOP. It will play well with both bases to either believe that if he supports the bill he must be honored by passing it or that if he supports the bill, well he is a conservative and deliberately did not join the black caucus and so is a sort of Uncle Tom. He has receive death threats and abuse nuts from both ideological sides.”
If course it is great political theater. And frankly it is wrong.
Neither democrats nor republicans should be passing laws based on appeals to emotions.
“I am not going to blame one party and claim the other is just fine and sincere.”
Why not ? You do so all the time. You are happy to blame Trump in a conflict, You are happy to blame the GOP.
If you are unwilling to do the same when it is democrats obstructing – then YOU are the problem.
We are still fighting over immigration – yet immigration reform was trivial nearly a decade ago.
It remains so today.
Dreamers get amnesty,
The Wall gets built
The rules get changed to make mass illegal immigration harder.
You could get republicans to agree to that in a heart beat.
You could get 80% of americans to agree to it.
A part of the reason you will not get a police reform bill through congress is that Democrats do not want to give Trump and Republicans an opportunity to claim they have accomplished anything.
They do not what even bi-partisan accomplishments.
That is OK – they are free to act that way, but they should be judged accordingly in Nov.
If you are a voter and you would have accepted the Scott Bill – even less than perfect,
They you should be voting for the Republican in your senate race.
The rejection of Scotts bill is much more insidious.
Had it passed – the bills are similar enough they would have gone to a joint house/senate conference to be reconciled. The Conference would have made one bill out of both that would have gone before the house and senate and would have had an up down vote.
Reconciled bills from a conference can not be filibustered or amended.
Congress must take them or leave them, and they must be brought to the floor for a vote.
Scotts bill was rejected by democrats – because they do not want ANY bill to pass – not even a version of their own.
This is also why Immigration reform is not possible, why democrats do not actually solve the problems of minorities.
Democrats need these as campaign issues to get elected.
I’ll note the irony of the treatment that Goldberg has received from many conservatives in the trump era. and the effect it has had on his career. I have read the vitriol thrown at him in comments on the National review site by the true believers. Man is he despised.
That said, my two youngest kids live in Boston and have been to protests. As far as I know that did not break anything or set anything on fire. They just used their free speech rights. I wish that they were the one and only form of this protest and that various looters, anarchists, and assorted angry nut jobs were not also part of it.
I mentioned before the situation in Russia, China, and even Japan where people are very patriotic and do not do much, if any, public soul searching of their countries’ past. I am hopeful that when the dust has settled the founders and the early Americans will have been strongly but mostly fairly examined and their good and bad will have been revisited. This is healthy. I do not think that the future holds an America where every public person who lived before 1960 has been disgraced and their ideas repudiated and driven out. If it were only conservatives defending the past then yes, that future could happen. Most people are not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater, even including liberals like myself. Conservatives may over reach and have it backfire if they take the line that trump took yesterday in his speech. Bad evil people overthrowing America. trump in his own way throws bombs that are every bit as destructive, if not more so, to the meaning of America than those of the rioters and anarchists.
That WSJ poll I posted had a question about ideology. Only 12% rated themselves very liberal. Moderates were by far the largest group. Conservatives in the strong and mild forms outnumbered liberals in the strong and mild forms by 10% if I remember. This is the group of Americans that was more upset with the police than the protesters, I think it was more or less by 60% to 30%.
These events cannot be attributed to a raging left-wing revolution. Hard lefties, CHOP zone type radicals, anarchists, etc. number in the tens of thousand I would estimate. My estimate is based from my time on various campuses in Vermont. At UVM the hard left was not one student in a thousand. There were 3 or 4 radical professors out of hundreds. But they make a lot of noise. In general I loath them, most of all because they disgrace the ideas that the majority of sane liberals hold.
Roby, I am convnced that you are correct that many of the protesters were genuinely peaceful, and supportive of the rallying cry that “black lives matter” I believe that there was some poll that showed that 78% of Americans (presumably many Republicans and Trump supporters) were included in that group. I certainly believe that black lives matter ~ all black lives, not to mention all lives (yes I know, that makes me not “woke”).
But, capital letter Black Lives Matter is an avowedly left-wing, neo-Marxist organization, and along with Antifa, a loosely organized group of radical and violent left-wing anarchists, they hijacked the legitimate George Floyd protests.
Really, I think it’s as simple as that. And it was up to the mayors of the cities that were set aflame, and saw homes and businesses vandalized, looted and destroyed, to stop the riots, or ask the federal government for help.
But they didn’t. Why they didn’t is another discussion.
It is inarguable that the mayors and governors in these states have failed.
First responsibility is with the protestors themselves.
The lockdown protestors showed that you can peacfully THREATEN government.
But these mayors and governors failed.
We can have protests without violence, looting and rioting.
If the protestors can not manage themselves – then it is governments job.
The police and possibly national guard should have forceibly if necescary moved protestors from business and residential areas to court houses and state houses, and there adjoining parks.
The right to protest government does not mean in large crowds with molatov cocktails in the middle of central business districts.
I like Goldberg – alot. He is one of the more libertarain conservatives.
I also like Will – even more.
But Both are wrong about Trump.
Or more accurately they are wrong that Trump’s flaws make him uniquely unqualified as president.
Further the opposition of Goldberg and Will is quite Odd.
As Jeffrey Tucker – an “anarcho-capitalist” and never Trumper before the election, noted regarding Trump – While Trump is FAR from any libertarian ideal, Trump has accomplished more of what libertarians want than possibly any other president.
He has dis-empowered neocons.
He has been the most deregulatory president since Carter – possibly ever.
He has made judicial appointments that are as close to libertarain as we could have any hope of.
Had Johnson/Weld been elected in 2016 – they would not have been able to get through a congress of democrats and republicans the libertarain things Trump has succeeded at.
Will and Goldberg have cast their lot with the neocons and statists of both parties that they despise.
I have no problem with Will and Goldberg criticising Trump.
I do not expect their full throated support – Trump does not have mine.
I expect them to criticise him where he deserves criticism and credit him where he has done well.
And by the metrics that Goldberg and Will claimed were their values – there is plenty that Trump has done well.
That right to protest, the right to assemble, the right to free speech, the right to petition the government.
Every one of those is one of the western values that these protestors are trying to destroy,
You ask for a fair assessment of our founders.
They have already gotten that.
Were you not aware that Madison, Jefferson, and Washington owned slaves ?
Almost the entirety fo the american history I was taught was about the conflicts over slavery in the first 100 years of this country.
All our hero’s have clay feet, MLK was a philanderer. Even Eisenhower was cheating on his wife.
We do not need the left to rewrite our history to eliminate the good and portray the country as entirely evil.
There are lots of warts – some pretty bad ones in US history. No one is hiding that.
It does not alter the fact that this country has been the world’s beacon of freedom – warts and all for centuries.
Robby,
So what is the distance between what BLM’s actual leaders want, What those in CHOP want, what AOC and the squad wants, what Democrats in their debates claimed they want, What Pelosi claims to want ?
If this is the spectrum of democrats – and it pretty much is, then we are at best talking about a democratic party that is going to follow the same ruinous policies that have destroyed and impoverished people all over the world.
So we do not get the most radical elements(today) – we do not get “defunding the police”
We get M4A or some further step towards botched socialized medicine that even most of europe does not actually have.
We get some expanded federal college education subsidy that ultimately accomplishes nothing except making college even more expensive and dysfunctional.
We get restrictions on fracking that drive prices in everything up and empower our enemies accross the globe.
We get more government money wasted on energy policies that have not worked anywhere they have been tried.
We get a return to mass illegal immigration.
I can go on and on.
The most moderate wing of the democratic party is pretty radical.
Democrats offer us a choice between socialism lite and marxism.
Neither of which work.
You bitched when Democrats were called Socialist under Obama.
Democrats today embrace socialism.
It does not work.
Why is the US striving to make the same mess of itself that Europe is struggling to get out of.
The academy today is not the academy that you or I attended.
The people burning down the house, do not want free speech, they do not want free assembly, they do not want due process.
Even if we ignore the violence, what we are seeing is a mass effort to silence, to disenfranchise, to condemn and execute without trial.
Those caught tearing down the statues will get their day in court, will get due process, the government will have to prove their case, the accused will get to make their own arguments.
What of those who are being “canceled” ?
What of those who have lost their jobs for remarks like “all lives matter” ?
What of those banned by youtube, twitter, facebook ? Often for statements whose offense is impossible to find.
“The tyranny of a multitude is a multiplied tyranny.”
Edmund Burke
“tolerance is extended to policies, conditions, and modes of behavior which should not be tolerated because they are impeding, if not destroying, the chances of creating an existence without fear and misery” “this sort of tolerance strengthens the tyranny of the majority against which authentic liberals protested”
Herbert Marcuse’s “Repressive Tolerance”
“When society is itself the tyrant — society collectively over the separate individuals who compose it — its means of tyrannising are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself.”
John Stuart Mill “On Liberty”
‘
Apparently the Rushmore event included no serious attempt to prevent COVID transmission. Masks and social distancing were in short supply.
No I do not think it is OK when protesters do it either.
But this is the POTUS, trump, his people, his administration staged an even where the number one crisis of our time was treated as a non event. If those people want to infect themselves, fine their families, not so fine, all the people they and their families will contact, apparently with low regard for masks or social distancing, just ludicrous.
The POTUS makes decisions that lead to the deaths of American soldiers, that is inevitable. Bad decisions that lead to the deaths of non military Americans? Not inevitable and disgusting.
Believing that COVID will just go away seems to be the trump reelection strategy. That and his bad evil people rhetoric, which clearly is meant to be aimed at his opponents in the minds of his true believers.
He is down 10 against biden, underwater by 15. The Dem party is up by 9 in the generic preferences. Its not an accident. Its not likely to just reverse itself.
Roby, I don’t believe that South Dakota ever shut down. Its schools remained open, no one lost their jobs, and people do not wear masks. Kristi Noem said that there was no reason to do so, since SD’s poulation is so small that they are naturally socially distant.
At some point, after that, there was a very bad outbreak at a Smithfield pork processing plant, and that plant was temporarily shut down and many family members of the workers also got sick. Ron has commented before about the fact that workers in meat processing plants tend to be recent immigrants, poor, and living in crowded, often multi-family or multi-generational housing. I believe there were one or two deaths associated with the outbreak. The outbreak was handled as an isolated incident and other parts of the state were not put under quarantine.
Noem had previously announced that masks would not be required, but would be provided at the event. Right or wrong, this was handled at the state level, just as it has been all over the country,
“Apparently the Rushmore event included no serious attempt to prevent COVID transmission. Masks and social distancing were in short supply.”
And if death rates spike as a result – Trump will not get re-elected.
It is that simple.
If they do not – the scolds such as yourself have a huge amount of Crow to eat.
You do not seem to grasp that just because I and many others choose to err on the side of caution, does not mean that YOU are entitled to impose that on all by force.
“Bad decisions that lead to the deaths of non military Americans?”
And your evidence of that ?
Belgium, UK, Italy, Spain, France,
all have death rates higher than the US.
Most of Europe has death rates near identical to the US.
So far the evidence is that no world leader has done much of anything that made this better or worse.
What we are seeing thus far is about twice as bad as a bad flu year.
It is NOT the number 1 crisis of our time.
“Believing that COVID will just go away seems to be the trump reelection strategy. ”
And if he is correct he will be re-elected.
I suspect that is what actually has you so angry.
I think Cuomo and NY have handled C19 badly – but it appears that it has burned out in NY.
If that is not correct – if there is not already something close to Herd immunity in NY, NY will not be able to come out of lockdown without C19 flaring up again.
NY has low numbers of new infections, death, hospitalizations, but it still has thousands of active cases and many many more undetected. ‘
As I noted either NY is near herd immunity – or they too will see this giant 2nd wave that you are claiming is on us.
Only a few people from europe are the cause for the tens of thousands of deaths in NY.
Absent immunity the orders of magnitude more currently infected new yorkers will cause an explosion of new cases if NY EVER reopens.
If I am wrong – if Trump is wrong – we will have to keep the economy completely locked down until there is a vaccine, and in the meantime millions will get infected and die – just more slowly.
Lets assume that you are right and we are in the midst of a 2nd wave.
How are you planning on stopping that ?
Go back to lockdowns.
Assuming as you are claiming 100% susceptability to C19, everyone who has not gotten it yet is vulnerable and will remain vulnerable until:
They get it.
They get a working vaccine.
Sufficient people have gotten it that we have heard immunity.
So far the best studies I have seen are that over the long run masks and social distancing are about 55% effective. just to be clear that in NOT single exposure effectiveness, it is longer term. We know from hospital data that even 95% effective PPE will be completely ineffective over a long enough period.
Basically PPE and Social distancing make it take longer to infect the entire vulnerable population – but ultimately masks or not, social distancing or not, nearly everyone who is not resistant will get this (or any other respiratory virus)
So all you actually have to offer is a protracted economic recession/depression in the hope that a vaccine is developed soon. Because if that takes too long – the results will be the same.
Nearly everyone gets infected.
I do not think this hypothetical is true.
But if true – it is your reality.
“He is down 10 against biden”
He is currently down 8.7 with the trend in Trump’s favor.
Trump’s approval is currently 47 That is 1pt higher than Obama on this date in 2012.
He might be within of Obama, but Obama was never dislike personally as bad as Trump. He is down 20 in surburban polls, the exact people he needs in all the swing states.
“He might be within of Obama, but Obama was never dislike personally as bad as Trump.”
You are correct – republicans disliked Obama, and democrats liked him.
Republicans love Trump, and democrats hate him.
But in the end the results are likely the same.
Obama when into 2012 with a weak economy little in the way of accomplishments, but against a weak opponent.
Trump will go into 2020 riding a wave of positive economic news, increasing employment, having defeated C19, having the collusion delusion exposed. Having gotten out of Afghanistan, and facing an even weaker opponents.
“He is down 20 in surburban polls, the exact people he needs in all the swing states.”
CA25 and NY16 were suburban, and in blue states.
I am actually expecting Trump to do well in suburbs.
First the biggest target for the Floyd protests was cluelessly woke women being targeted by those even further left.
This was not just saying police are racist, there was a strong undercurrent of hatred directed at liberal white women.
Next increases in crime are a big driver of suburban voting.
I understand it does not seem that way now,
And who knows – we could get a plague of bloody frogs raining from the sky before the election. But absent another lunatic catastrophe all tides are running the republican direction.
This to me is unbelievable. No wonder the GOP is down 9 in the generic congressional preference.
“South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem said despite health experts’ concerns about a large gathering amid the coronavirus pandemic people would “not be social distancing” during a July 3 celebration at Mount Rushmore that will be attended by President Donald Trump.
In an interview with the Republican governor on Monday, Fox News host Laura Ingraham decried the cancellation of other Independence Day celebrations and asked Noem for her response to those citing health concerns “as the reason to cancel all of these patriotic displays?”
“You know Laura, in South Dakota, we’ve told people to focus on personal responsibility. Every one of them has the opportunity to make a decision that they’re comfortable with. So, we will be having celebrations of American independence,” Noem said. “We told those folks that have concerns that they can stay home. But those who want to come and join us, we’ll be giving out free face masks, if they choose to wear one. But we won’t be social distancing.”
Noem encouraged to people to “be ready to celebrate, to enjoy the freedoms and the liberties that we have in this county.” She also said it was a chance to “talk about our history, what it brought us today, with the opportunity to raise our kids in the greatest country in the world.”
“Yeah the media is just freaking out about the COVID problem,” Ingraham said of the news coverage of the COVID-19 outbreak that has killed more than 127,000 people in the U.S. and is infecting an increasing number of people in many states.
Noem has been reluctant to issue lockdowns and other restrictive measures in response to the pandemic and Ingraham praised her decision, pointing to the fact there have been only 6,764 confirmed coronavirus cases and 91 related deaths in South Dakota – low figures even for a state with a population of fewer than 900,000 residents. ”
https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/01/kristi-noem-social-distancing-mount-rushmore-trump/5354257002/
Whoops, I was commenting and missd your comment on this. Should have posted my response under this one, but I hadn’t seen it yet.
Listen, I could go on and on about the 30,000 deaths in NY, 5000 of them in nursing homes that were forced, by Andrew Cuomo’s order, to accept positive covid patients, who had been determined not sick enough to be hospitalized, or whose conditions had stablilized. Phil Murphy in NJ and Tom Wolf in PA did the same thing. It literally caused thousands of deaths, shutdown or no shutdown, masks or no masks. These people were the most vulnerable of all, and the governors did nothing to protect them.
Cuomo also refused to shut down the subways , or have them cleaned and sanitized, until reports indicated that it was the sardine-can-packed subway cars, with unmasked riders (masks were not initially required), that were contributng to the massive outbreak in NYC.
Do I think Cuomo tried to kill these people? No. But he has been on TV, almost daily, patting himself on the back for the fact that NY’s infection rate is now lower than some other states.
Many of the vulnerable people are already recovered, or dead. As Biden would say, “Come on, Man!”
I think that it’s reasonable to assume that NY and SD would have very different situations in an epidemic, and that Kristi Noem would issue different orders than Cuomo, Wolf and Murphy.
Easy to armchair quarterback, but we shouldn’t do it until we have the facts.
How many more facts do we need before we can say that the POTUS should not be hosting huge mask optional events at this time?
This is absurd and destructive and, perhaps I sound like a broken record, but history will remember and trump and the GOP now own the future progression of COVID and any deaths of innocents that can be traced to his activities.
“How many more facts do we need before we can say that the POTUS should not be hosting huge mask optional events at this time?”
None. There is no facts that would alter that as you say this is optional and voluntary.
People are choosing on their own.
It is not POTUS;s job to choose for them.
It is not yours.
“This is absurd and destructive and, perhaps I sound like a broken record, but history will remember and trump and the GOP now own the future progression of COVID and any deaths of innocents that can be traced to his activities.”
Should your predictions prove true – you are likely correct.
But that is highly unlikely and we both know that.
BTW if you chose to go out and party without a mask – you are not innocent.
I would suggest that you think more about the high probability you are wrong.
There will not be spikes in deaths.
People will enjoy the celebration.
Trump’s popularity is on the rise again. Biden’s is falling.
C19 is fading.
The economy is recovering.
The protests are fading.
All trends lead towards Trump being re-elected.
C19 has near certainly just about burned out in NY.
It has done so with absolutely no regard for Cuomo’s actions.
Aside from the stupid policies that you mentioned. The fundimental reasons that NY spiked so high are:
Highest population density in the world
Relatively northern
not especially good diet,
not especially good demographics.
C19 arrived in NY very early.
All these produce an early and high spike with a rapid collapse.
States with different demographics and population density will automatically get longer flatter curves.
I expect by the time we are done total infections in FL and TX will come close to those of NY,
Though deaths will likely be much lower.
There will be data scaling issues – because much more testing is being done in FL and TX right now, which means TX anf FL will show higher numbers of cases but much lower mortality. But that is just an artifact of testing.
“This is absurd and destructive and, perhaps I sound like a broken record, but history will remember and trump and the GOP now own the future progression of COVID and any deaths of innocents that can be traced to his activities.”
Come on, Roby, that is about as fact-free as you can get.
The idea that all future covid deaths will be Trump’s fault is absurd. How about the governors who literally banned doctors in their states from using hydroxychloroquine, even though the FDA had already granted emergency approval for its off-label use to treat covid? Then a now debunked study in the leftwing Lancet claimed that HCQ was useless in treating covid.
In March, Andrew Cuomo, Gretchen Witmer, and Steve Sisolak (NV) ordered doctors not to prescribe HCQ for covid patients, unless they were in a clinical trial or were in critical condition (we know that HCQ works best in moderate early stage disease)
Now, just this week, after tens of thousands have died of the disease, we find that a major large-scale study by the Henry Ford Health System has found that HCQ cuts deaths from covid by almost half. This, of course, is after many smaller studies found the same result, and dozens of anecdotal testimonials claimed that HCQ had saved patients who otherwise would have died. https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study
And NY and Michigan together account for a whopping 38,000 deaths. Not less than 100, like South Dakota. Not to mention, we have no idea how many, if any, attendees at the Mount Rushmore event could have been exposed to a disease which has been virtually gone from South Dakota, since April.
So, I’ll say that these Democrat governors, who ordered doctors NOT to treat their patients with a potentially livesaving drug with a long and established safety record….well, then, I’ll say that THEY already “own” the deaths of thousands of innocents, many of who begged to be given the drug that they had heard described in the President’s briefings.
Everyone can play at this blame game. But it’d more prudent to wait for facts ~ that’s my point.
If History remembers Covid19 at all – it will remember what idiots we were.
That for a disease that is not much beyond a bad flu that we shutdown the economy and panicked.
The revolutionary war was fought in the middle of a pandemic – small pox, about 10 times as contagious as C19 and fatal 1/3 of the time. Yet, the colonists did not call the revolution off.
https://www.aier.org/article/they-could-have-sheltered-in-place-instead-they-fought-a-revolution/
This is what you get when medical treatment is politicized. Trump mentions the drug and immediately actions are taken to discredit by the opposition.
Why is it that the significance of that is not understood ?
Nothing more clearly demonstrates that the objective of the media is to portray Trump as a dimwit and a failure – NO MATTER WHAT, That the left is actually hoping for failure, than HCQ.
HCQ was first tried in China – based on decades of research in France.
There were some indications that it was effective.
At the Time Trump mentioned it – it had been used in China and South Korea and there were Tests going on in France.
There was nothing wrong With Trump mentioning HCQ in the C19 breifing. There was nothing wrong with suggesting it might be a “game changer”.
Isn’t our president supposed to give us hope ?
Instead the media vultures attacked.
There could be no valid purpose for the media attacks on Trump’s HCQ remarks except to destroy hope.
I am still not sure whether HCQ is an important tool in fighting C19. There have been so many contradictory studies.
But what is absolutely true is that the attacks on Trump about HCQ were vicious and unwarranted.
And there is no way to read them beyond “hoping for failure”
Something similar happened with the “injecting bleach” story.
Trump was told of a potentially significant treatment that Brix explained to him was similar to bleaching your blood to kill the virus.
Trump repeated the analogy. The press took the analogy in the worst possible literal sense.
In fact the treatment was not similar to bleaching your blood – it was nearly littlerally bleaching your blood. But “bleaching” has a broader meaning that clorox.
There are numerous “bleaches” including oxidizers, and many forms of disinfection are called bleaching.
So Trump was correct in describing the process is bleaching.
But that is not the same as injecting clorox.
We are seeing the same thing with the numbers now.
The press and the left WANTS a 2nd wave.
Several people have tweeting that they would sacrifice millions to C19 to get rid of Trump.
But funding a nut job to say something like that is not surprising there is always one nutjob.
But infact it is evident that the press WANTS failure and death.
By the way, Roby, I believe that we are actually disagreeing in a civil manner.
It must be the spirit of the 4th of July!! 😉
“No wonder the GOP is down 9 in the generic congressional preference.”
And yet the GOP picked up two districts they lost in 2018 in the past month and they did so by 20pt+ swings
Are CA25 and NY16 anomalies ?
Are the people celebrating without masks and without social distancing
being forced to do so ?
Isn’t everyone who does not wish to participlate free to stay home and watch ?
Aren’t you once again demanding that the entire nation follow YOUR demands ?
I read a recent article that Twitter is purging purportedly offensive language.
After reviewing this further. it turns out that Twitter is actually trying to police language use in its internal software development documenation.
The PC police are purging technical terms.
As one example in software there are many types of software where the interations between modules or the modules themselves are labeled “master” and “slave”.
This is a term of art in programming. Nor is the “master” “slave” language unique to computer software, it is common throughout engineering. Cars have master cylinders in their brake systems and slaves.
Outside the domain of human interactions “master/slave” is an accurate way of describing a control relationship between inanimate components.
There is no “free will” involved, so there are no moral issues.
But Twitter is purging these triggering terms from their software documentation.
The end result being that the documentation is less clear.
Two different universes. Unfortunately, regarding things that are life and death important.
I would rather than the universe I am living in were wrong.
There is no point in arguing. We will wait and we will see.
“We will wait and we will see.”
Exactly. And, no matter what happens, we will probably disagree on much of it. For example, I have taken, and still do take, the statistics on c19 very seriously. And, so do you.
I think that we have been, and are being. subjected to a massive bait-and-switch. More than one, in fact.. We were originally told that we had to “flatten the curve” in order to save our medical and hospital system from being overwhelmed, the way Italy’s was. So it was 15 days, then 30 days, then indefinitely, based on what your governor said, but maybe until a vaccine is discovered. And we know that that may be never. At the very least, it would be long enough to permanently crash our economy.
Another one is this : For weeks , all we heard was “This virus is much worse than any other that we ever experienced because it’s so much more deadly than the the others and so easy to catch that you could get it from not washing down your groceries.” The death rate from covid is going to be 10 times that of the flu.” Well, now that testing has been ramped up, and, as a result of more testings/more positves, the death rate is turning out to be….about the same as the flu.
Since we are in separate universes, I’m curious as to how you see these things, Roby. I know you must disagree, and I genuinely want to understand this through your prism. How long should states remain shut down? Should we be tederally mandated to wear masks in public, regardless of where we live? Why and for how long? (I’m not one of those people who refuses to wear a mask, but I understand that ,while masks may help,, but don’t prevent).
Anyway, hope everyone had a happy 4th!
Priscilla, one thing I would like to see is a federal requirement that any state /county receiving federal covid funds of any kind are required to report recovered cases. Right jow, in many, if not most, sites reporting cases, we have 2.6M , or whatever the last count was, active cases. If you get this virus, you are permantly ill unless you die.
In my county, they report recovered cases. We have had 3,000+cases since this pandemic started. Of those, 2000+ have recovered, meaning in a county of 380,000, less than 1% have had a known case and less that 3/10th percent has an active case.
Looking at any site that does report active cases, they report over 50 days of cases as being active while the actual recovery time is somewhere around 17. Instead of 1.5M active cases spreading germs, it is closer to 700K.
The importance of this is fear and public policy. If you have 10,000 cases in a county, it is easier to restrict businesses and personal activities using 10,000 instead of 3,000 active cases.
Ron,
Everyone who does not die ultimately recovers.
Getting recovery data correct is just a statistical excercise.
We already know that between 90% and 95% of all cases are never reported.
All of those recover too.
One of the problems with dealing with Robby and the media and the left, is that their objective is to foment panic.
The virus is going to follow a logistical curve PERIOD. That is the nature of epidemics.
If the data does not show a logistical curve – that is either an artifact of policy changes that have actual effect, or of data collection.
Those countries that went through this earliest – show a logistical curve.
Those that had uniform testing start to finish show a logistical curve.
Those who ramped up testing over time show a long tail.
But the behavior of the virus is not different in italy than the US.
There was be some curve distortions in the US as a result of the size of the country and the widely varied population density.
Highly dense places like NYC will have sharp rising and falling curves.
While less dense places will have flatter curves.
Places where policy was consistent from the start will have clear logistical curves.
Places that locked down and then opened up may show small spikes shortly after opening up.
But pretty much everywhere the virus will spread until it can spread no more – until it has reached about 80% of the people who are not immune.
All the precautions we take, mask wearing, self isolation are all just efforts to get ourselves into that 20% that is not immune and does not get infected.
If we were going to go with an actual “greatest good” policy – we would isolate the most likely to die and require the rest to NOT isolate and NOT mask to burn this out as fast as possible among the people least vulnerable.
The optimaly “herd immunity” pattern is the people who are not going to die get infected, to protect those who might die.
The WORST pattern is to infect the most vulnerable while protecting children and others who are least effected.
Dave, Good Grief, I am not that stupid. I know you either die or recover.
But what is more scary to report? What is more detrimental to a Trump administration.
1. Today we have 2.6M confirmed cases of Covid 19
or,
2. Today we have 700,000 active cases if Covid 19, and 1.7M individuals have recovered.
I relate this to the easily brainwashed voters that you keep defending. You believe everyone can see through media manipulation. I have much less confidence and that is based on how easily people are manipulated around the world by many different governments.
America is not immune to studidity. The only cure for stupidity is death. You can educate ignorance.
“But what is more scary to report?”
Don’t care. I care about what is more accurate.
Death rates are the most accurate information we have.
Hospitalizations are nearly as accurate.
Neither of these are perfect, but they are far better than testing data which is only useful as a measure if it is done consistently using the same standards at the same rates over long periods.
Testing is obviously useful to identify infected people, But that is NOT a metric, It tells us that specific people are infected. It does not tell us the proportion of the population infected.
Regardless I do not care whether Data is scary, or negatively impacts Trump.
I care if it is meaningful.
To make test results meaningful you would have to scale them.
“What is more detrimental to a Trump administration.”
Don’t care.
1. Today we have 2.6M confirmed cases of Covid 19
We probably have 24-54M cases
I prefer a number with a high margin of error, but a high probability of accuracy,
To a number that is precise but totally inaccurate.
“2. Today we have 700,000 active cases if Covid 19, and 1.7M individuals have recovered.”
Neither number is meaningfully accurate.
It is likely at the moment that we have maybe 2M active cases and possible 52M people who have recovered.
“I relate this to the easily brainwashed voters that you keep defending.”
Oddly as fixated as most of us are on the numbers, at the same time we somewhat understand their lack of meaning.
Even if governments were not backing down on the lockdown – people are.
People are wiser than government.
I have said this is close to burning out.
I think that is demonstrable even with the higher numbers that are coming with higher testing.
But another things is also happening – and that is more important politically.
PEOPLE INCREASINGLY DON”T CARE.
Even if C19 does not burn out by Nov (or Aug). If voters have moved on, it will not effect the election.
The same will be true of the Floyd protests. All these “crisises” will pass.
If however the increase in crime is sustained which is likely THAT will be a factor in the election.
“You believe everyone can see through media manipulation. I have much less confidence and that is based on how easily people are manipulated around the world by many different governments.”
No, I beleive that given enough time people get past it.
Absolutely the media can hype people up for a while, But they can not sustain outrage over one thing very long – expecially a small thing.
I would also note that constant outrage from the media burns people out.
The recent sequence of events has actually been BAD for democrats.
Carter was obliterated by Reagan because the Iran Embassy hostages were a millstone for the entire election. He could not escape them.
C19 will die on its own, or people will adjust – or both. Regardless it will not drive outrage forever.
BLM and these protests have more leggs than a mass shooting – but not MUCH more leggs.
In a month or two what people will remember is how scared they were of the rioting.
If as appears true crime rates increase and stay high – that will last to the election.
Some things are less easy for me to predict.
It appears that toppling and defacing monuments pissed alot of people off.
More than I would have expected.
“America is not immune to studidity. The only cure for stupidity is death. You can educate ignorance.”
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln,
The left and the media have burned their credibility.
Part of the way you can tell is the attacks on trump are increasingly ridiculous.
Dave “Don’t care. I care about what is more accurate.”
Yes I know, its all about you. What you want, what you think.
But guess what. I was not addressing what you wanted or what you thought. And Individual dont care that you want accurate information because most voters dont care. They listen and believe the brainwashing bull crap that you ignore. If I am right Biden is a shoe in. If your right, Trump wins.
I was addressing the way news and agencies report facts that are manipulated to create a unfavorable atmosphere and try to scare people.
When Abe Lincoln said what he said, those that voted were not as gullible as our social media sniqflake today.
Dave “Don’t care. I care about what is more accurate.”
“Yes I know, its all about you. What you want, what you think.”
How is that about me ? You can not make either cases or recoveries accurate.
That has nothing to do with me.
“But guess what. I was not addressing what you wanted or what you thought.”
Again not about me.
We can not make wise decisions with meaningless information.
“And Individual dont care that you want accurate information because most voters dont care. They listen and believe the brainwashing bull crap that you ignore. If I am right Biden is a shoe in. If your right, Trump wins.”
I think voters are sharper than you do.
Further I think that is already self evident.
We are opening up. With our without governments permission.
It is happening because more and more people do not beleive the very things you are concerned that they do.
“I was addressing the way news and agencies report facts that are manipulated to create a unfavorable atmosphere and try to scare people.”
They have been doing that for some time. They get worse and worse over time.
They have also burned their credibility with large portions of the people.
Credibility and integrity are nearly impossible to get back.
You already clearly do not trust the media. Why do you think you are alone ?
“When Abe Lincoln said what he said, those that voted were not as gullible as our social media sniqflake today.”
If anything they were more gullible then.
What I find the most interesting is that to a large extent it is the better educated whites who are the most gullible.
I have said that I expect Trump to win. In fact I expect it to be a landslide.
I particularly expect it because of the ratcheting up levels of desperation of the left.
I am not perfect at predicting. In fact I am not good at reading other people at all.
I would have expected that with the whoppers that have been told by the left and the media in the past year, that more people would have seen the lies by now.
But I think the numbers are sufficient – and growing.
Because the more disparate the left gets the less appealing they become.
But win or lose, there will be someone following Trump.
The pendulum is swinging away from the left – it is not the polls that tell you that – it is the desperation.
I am not worried about the media – the people who still buy what they are selling are going to vote for wing nuts if they vote at all.
Sometimes I worry about the censorship of social media – but honestly I think it is self defeating. Every time they shut somebody down, every time they tag a trump video, they make themselves look more stupid and partisan.
My big concern is how does the left react when Trump wins.
The under 30 crowd may not vote, but they burn things down.
I know that you do not agree – but I am expecting that barring another major unpredicatable disaster – something like a SWAT team raids a black kindergarten and kills 20 black kids,
That Trump is not only winning in Nov. but winning big.
Current polling in Swing states is in some instance about the same as the day before the election in 2016.
It is irrelevant if the entirety of NYC votes for Biden. If the national numbers are correct, and I do not think they are, they only have meaning in a popular vote election.
Tucker Carlson is the highest rated Cable news show EVER – and has been for almost a year. I think Fox has 7 of the top 10 slots.
That candice owens video got 98M views.
The GOP has won two special elections COMMANDINGLY in districts they lost in 2018.
The most accurate polster for 2016 is saying Trump’s swing state polling right now is better than election day 2016.
He also says he thinks the number of “secret” trump voters – people who will not tell pollsters or their friends is DOUBLE that of 2016.
The very same people we saw out rioting – are not going to vote in 2020.
This age group riots, they do not vote.
The enthusiasm of Trump voters is incredibly high.
Trump can absolutely count on his base.
More than 50% of Biden voters want someone else.
Do you think Biden can count on those votes ?
You note correctly that white suburban women are a key group.
They are the biggest target for BLM and the left. The leftist backlash against white liberal women is huge.
Destroying monuments was a mistake.
making people kneel was also a mistake.
Pissing off police was a mistake – that is millions of guaranteed votes for Trump.
If crime rises – that will hurt BLM and democrats.
The police reforms that suburban women will want watching rising crime is MORE cops.
Regardless, you can not demand gun control and demand defunding the police at the same time. People grasp that crime, anarchy and chaos are that way.
All the predictable trends between now an the election run Trump;s way.
I am more concerned about AFTER the election.
At this time there are only two metrics that are reliable over time.
Deaths, and hospitalizations.
It is probable that the deaths are inflated – but the inflation is likely constant over time.
So data about deaths over time shows trends accurately.
The next critical data we need is not recoveries, it is antibody tests.
What portion of the population has been infected already.
But finally I would note to all of us – myself and Robby included.
All the data in the world is just to measure what the virus is doing.
It is still doing what it is doing – regardless of our measures.
Testing does not increase or decrease C19 cases,
The cases will increase or decrease based on the frequency with which infected people contact people who are not immune or resistant.
Not based on the testing.
“Exactly. And, no matter what happens, we will probably disagree on much of it.”
This is possibly the most disturbing aspect – not merely of C19 – but of most every disagreement.
Even when everything is over and the results should be painfully obvious, it is so often impossible to see what is self evident.
There should be zero doubt that there is no “systemic racism” – not in policing, not in US society. The statistics have shown declines in all negative race related problems and improvements in all positives for my entire lifetime.
It is not hyperbole when I say we live in the least racist moment in the least racist country in the world. it is an absolute fact.
And yet we are in the midst or a race riot and efforts to eradicate the past.
It could be months before we see the last C19 case. But only the willfully blind refuse to see that we are well past the peak. Deaths have dropped dramatically from the peak, as have hospitalizations.
In most every country in the world that C19 has burned out – it has taken about 3 months.
The US will likely take longer – because it is larger, and because of the lockdown.
but within each state the duration will still be about 3 months.
In any place that C19 has diminished – there are only two possibilities.
That place has acheived herd immunity and will not see a significant increase until that immunity recedes,
OR some magical intervention has driven C19 away and that nation will remain vulnerable to a “2nd wave” so long as C19 exists in the world.
There is not a 3rd choice.
For those places that have acheived “herd immunity” there will be no signicant “2nd wave” until that immunity diminishes. We do not know how long immunity lasts – but there are no indications of it weakening anywhere yet.
These things are facts.
But we can accept that even after this is over – somehow the media will paint Cuomo who has had the worst track record as a hero and Trump as a villian.
When the fact is nothing government has done has had any positive effect.
That is ALREADY self evident.
It appears that C19 is about as fatal as the Flu in 1967.
It is a tiny fraction as bad as the 1918 Flu.
It is maybe twice as bad as the normal yearly Flu
And all that presumes that we do not go back and normalize C19 deaths to the same medical standards used for the Flu.
Currently we are counting all deaths that occur in people who are C19 positive as C19 deaths. We do NOT do that with the Flu or pneumonia, or colds, when there is an underlying fatal condition.
I can no longer get the CDC overal mortality to date data, but as of the begining of June US deaths were only about 20K higher than same time in 2019.
“Two different universes. ”
You constantly engage in these word games. This is at the core of my attack on you STEM background.
The core assumption of all science is that reality is not completely random. That if Gravity pulls things to the earth today that tomorow it will not toss them into space.
That if we can establish that some patterns are immutable, that we can trust them tomorrow.
The second core assumption is that reality is logically consistent.
That the laws of the universe do not contradict each other.
Yet, you constantly reject this. You pretend there are multiple realities, or that your fear overrides logic.
“Unfortunately, regarding things that are life and death important.”
All the more reason to fullow the actual laws of mathematics and science, rather than making up new ones for the moment.
“I would rather than the universe I am living in were wrong.”
I do not care what mental universe you live in. There is only one actual universe that we live in.
“There is no point in arguing. We will wait and we will see.”
We already have.
And this is another critical point of disagreement.
Even where we do not have absolutes – we do have patterns of behavior and probabilities.
That are based on centuries of past experience and data.
One of the issues from start to finish with C19 is that we have reacted, we have followed policies that make assumptions that C19 is radically different – without real evidence that it is.
The actual science known from the start is that lockdowns etc. will not alter the total number of infections – it will not alter the “area under the curve”, that lockdowns are a simple tradeoff – stretch the duration out while lowering the peak “flatten the curve” on the assumption that if the healthcare system is not over taxed fewer people will die.
There is no reduction in total infections, there is also no reduction in people who will die without treatment. There is just the hope that more people will be treated successfully and not die.
Well thus far we have little in the way of effective treatment – and what little we have has not been used broadly. HCQ Might reduce deaths by 20%, certain steriods MIGHT reduce death by 20%, Remedsivir might reduce deaths by 50%. But none of these are being widely used.
It is highly unlikely that many people are living who would have died otherwise.
This inherently means that with rare exceptions – such as returning recovering C19 patients into nursing homes, that any claims that some policy would save lives or has cost lives is garbage.
There are not two different legitimate points of view – there is what we can predict based on know probabilities and historic behavior – and there is magic.
If we make predictions and choose policies based on the know behavior or respiratory viruses, we will make a few mistakes. C19 is not EXACTLY like every other respiratory virus.
But it is also not radically different.
I see the same thing from you with most everything – and that reaction is what makes me question your STEM education.
It is nearly always true in the real world with issues that involve humans that we have lots and lots of data, and that things are complicated enough and that there are enough variables that there are not perfectly clear 100% consistent patterns.
That is ALWAYS true when there are multiple independent variables, and we can not do controlled experiments.
That is precisely the reason that we have statistics – to sort out the noise and the false signals from the valid data.
Put more simply there will nearly always be some pattern in data to support any claim that you wish to make if your examination of the data is shallow.
Men are arrested 10 times more than women.
Should we conclude that the police discriminate against men ?
But that is exactly what you and those on the left do all the time – and this is part of my critique of Ron’s “common sense” – because we can always find shallow patterns to prove anything.
There are very few properly regressed statistics on policing that show evidence of actual racial bias on the part of police.
Systemic racism requires not merely a few signals of racism, but very few signals that do NOT show racism.
Any logical person would expect that greater testing for a disease that we miss 19 times out of 20 will produce more hits.
If this is about life and death as you say – then the only metric that matters is death.
Frankly, that has always been true.
All of us would love to eradicate C19 (or the flu), but if neither were ever fatal, we would direct few resources to doing so.
We would not spend $5T to stop a disease that cost us a few billion in lost time.
I was watching a Tim Pool video where he noted that the Candace Owen’s “I do not support George Floyd” Video received 98M views.
I can not substantiate that – though Pool is generally reliable.
I have found the video in various places – it keeps getting taken down so it gets reposted on other accounts.
The largest number of views i have seen in a single location is 7.7M, But I have seen several different places in Youtube where it was 2m plus views.
How is it we are not hearing about a back women speaking intelligently on Floyd that 1/3 of america has viewed ?
Why is she not on every single media outlet ?
There are 10M people in Hong Kong I would welcome today.
Can we send New Yorkers to HK and bring them here ?
https://twitter.com/HisukaSlap/status/1279598949968601088
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/03/police-black-killings-homicide-rates-race-injustice-column/3235072001/
https://www.ftportfolios.com/Common/ContentFileLoader.aspx?ContentGUID=a9e49836-abc7-41cf-8949-4497ddee0018
White priviledge
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/white-privilege-exists/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=river&utm_content=featured-content-trending&utm_term=first
Why there was no federal police reform
https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/505295-if-only-woke-protesters-knew-how-close-they-were-to-meaningful-police
Some statistics on what Blacks think of the police.
Some are older, but some are right AFTER the floyd killing.
https://www.city-journal.org/hearing-what-black-voices-really-say-about-police
Why Trump will win.
https://twitter.com/Julio_Rosas11/status/1279569539227963392
https://twitter.com/ArthurSchwartz/status/1279781525219946498
Brutal but true
New study indicates that vituous victim signaling correlates to sociopathy
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2020-46166-001
Many people believe that global population growth leads to greater poverty and more famines, but evidence suggests otherwise. Between 1960 and 2016, the world’s population increased by 145 percent. Over the same time period, real average annual per capita income in the world rose by 183 percent.
https://humanprogress.org/article.php?p=1147
77 more Black People shot in Chicago this weekend. 14 killed including a 7 year old & a 14 year old. NewYork, which disbanded anti-crime police units, saw 56 shootings, 9 dead. Cleveland- 20 shot, 3 dead. DC- 11 year old shot. An 8 year old shot in Atlanta. BLM and Antifa ruling the streets, as police are told to stand down.
How can anyone support this? Yet, the Democrat Party does. It’s just collateral damage in their current power quest.
Has nothing to do with George Floyd, whose memory has been tossed aside by the mob.
Meanwhile, covid deaths down 93% from the peak. Deaths have dropped steadlily for over 2 months.
Be careful! The left will blame the guns, not criminals or reduced policing.
They already are.
I know you do not get this – but voters are not that stupid.
They know what has changed.
According to a poll I linked AFTER the Floyd killing, 56% of blacks want MORE police.
Even more surprising blacks want MORE police in squad cars diconnected from and flying in from outside of the community rather than cops on the beat in their neighborhoods if it means a faster response when they call 911.
They want MORE arrests of drug dealers.
They want MORE arrests of law breakers in their neighborhoods.
The american revolution did NOT involve rioting, arson and looting
There has been lots of controversy brewing over Trump’s 4th of July speech.
As there is over everything Trump says.
My suggestion is read/listen to it and then decide if you beleive the criticism is truthful.
I did. I thought it was a good speech. But not a great one.
The most disturbing part for me was that Trump made alot of promises, that he can not keep.
That he can not keep if re-elected, and certainly not if he loses.
He made promises that should not be necescary – that this country would never be socialist, that it would always be free, that we would not lose our history.
Some painted the speech as “divisive” – to an extent it was.
If you beleive you are entitled to transform the US into a marxist dystopia – Trump made it clear you are NOT. Trump drew a line and alienated those on the left of that line.
But if you were alienated by Trump’s speech – you are no american – and you do not want to be, so why are you disturbed ?
It is divisive to say this country will never be socialist.
It is divisive to say this country will always have free speech.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/senator-duckworth-and-most-of-the-press-are-lying-about-trumps-speech/
While the author of this is correct – he misses the most important point which likely will be pounded in to voters over the next 4 months.
Democrats rejected Sanders. They chose the moderate centrist democrat. They voted to move the democratic party the right of Obama.
But what they got was Sanders is Biden cloths.
We have a version of Nixon/McGovern or Reagan/Mondale.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/07/the-radical-joe-biden.php
The real message is that actual racist incidents are so rare today that we need hoaxes to gin up claims of racism
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/07/06/bubba-wallace-and-the-wave-of-dubious-hate/
Just incase you are unclear, she made video’s in which she said that people who say “all lives matter” should be stabbed, and as a result her employer fired her, and now she is upset ?
https://twitter.com/ryanlongcomedy/status/1280132154421370881
I listened to it – mostly because it was so thoroughly panned.
I do not think it was a great speech.
But it was a good speech.
It was only dark and divisive if you are a communist, socialist or beleive the US is irredeemable evil.
Van Jones – not even slightly conservative also purportedly worked with Trump to craft the Police reform bill that Democrats tanked.
The problem with college educated leftists today
So someone on the Twit says it and you agree so much that you share it. I say it and you go out of your way to defend the stupidity of voters that just believe what they hear and never question. And yes, I relate learning something from the media and social media the same as college and schools. You learn constantly.
Guess I will start commenting on twitter..
No just “Someone on the Twit”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman
Are some voters stupid ? Certainly.
In any group some members are stupid.
The quote is an explanation for the disparity in stupidity between college educated voters and those who are not, with the magnitude of stupidity going counter intuitively.
This parallel’s Naseem Talib’s IYI – Intellectual Yet Idiot.
I strongly suspect it has something to do with another premise of Talib.
That the trustworthyness of an oppinion is proportionate to the amount of “Skin in the game”.
The more educated we get the more many of us are divorced from the consequences of our actions, and the worse decisions we make.
Just to be clear – that is not universally true – those in STEM – particularly those who are accountable in STEM are likely to make better decsions.
Funny, how Senator Tim Scott is saying and doing things that make so much sense, but the Democrats just ignore him.
I can’t imaginge why….
“I also think the country is better off trying to create the future than reframe the past,” Scott said. “We spend almost too much time in the rearview mirror and not enough time in the windshield. It’s hard not to get in an accident when all your focus is on yesterday. For us to reframe the past doesn’t benefit almost anyone. So, if we want to reframe the past, however, put up more statues. Put up a statue not just Martin Luther King Jr. What about Rosa Parks? Or Booker T. Washington? Washington Carver? There’s a lot of folks that we can celebrate. But, tearing something down does not necessarily build you up,
https://www.dailywire.com/news/senator-scott-the-country-is-better-off-trying-to-create-the-future-than-reframe-the-past
Even French Pres. Marcon got it better.
He told people This is our past. Good, evil, Both, it is what it is. We are not tearing it down.
Removing the confederate flag from State flag’s is more than reasonable – that never should have happened. Whatever you think about the confederacy – they were still a rebellion – actual treason, the state should not be celebrating that.
As to monuments and statues: They are not inherently forever. But they are also not subject to removal at the whim of vandals.
That is actually important. It is a reflection of how “the protestors” think.
There have been comments about the fact that BLM organizers are NOT reflective of the BLM marchers (who are 60% white).
But those tearing down the statues ARE reflective of those protesting.
And this demonstrates they are anarchists – lawless. They are not petitioning government to remove statues, they are tearing them down themselves.
One of the things I found most evident of their cluelessness was that they tore down the statue of Fredrick Douglas erected in the city where he gave his famous 4th of july from the eyes of a slave speech
This is a very interesting take on the coronavirus. Not particularly new, since we have all at some point, commented on the fact that it’s the immune system response, not the virus that kills.
But this article is by a doctor who analyzes the data and the treatment modalities, and reaches the conclusion that antivirals, such as the very expensive remdesivir are less effective at preventing deaths as antiinflammatories such as HCQ, dexamethasone, and a new treatment, budesonide, a steroid that is inhaled into the lungs.
One wonders why there has been such a resistance to accepting HCQ’s effectiveness, and a push to crown remdesivir as the treatment of choice…
First, this is the problem when a medical issue has become politicalized. Everyone wants to make comments in the media, instead of limiting those comments within the edical publications like 99% of all illness. And anyone who has read reliable information on protection knows facemask other than N95’s dont protect the wearer, they limit the wearers spit, snot and vapors to a very small space because the cloth restricts the force behind the volume of particles in exhaled air. It helps protect those around the wearer.
As for the drug question, as a former healthcare finace professional, the reason HCQ, steroids and other drugs like those are being discounted by “experts” is due to stockholders. Remdesvir cost government $2,200 (+-) and self pay and commercial insurance $3,200(+-).for a drug that cost $9.32 to manufacture a 10 day treatment. HCQ has had an average cost of $10.00 for the total treatment, and it is made by multiple companies. For stockholders return, $3200 for one company is much better than $10 spread over multiple companies.
And no, not all doctors are like the one that wrote this article. He is retired, trained when docs made their own decisions. Today, docs use the latest and greatest and if insurance pays, the hospitals have that on their clinical treatment protocols doctors have to follow without justifing varying from protocols.
All facemasks are better at protecting others from you, than you from others.
All facemasks protect you from others.
All facemasks are NOT equal.
Even n95 masks have too large a filter to be completely effective against C19.
Even a bandana will trap some viruses from reaching you.
Further masks do not need to be 100% effective.
All they need to do is diminish the viral load you get.
We already know that if you are exposed to a lower load, that you are less likely to get C19 and more likely to get a weaker case if you do get it.
But there is a different problem with ALL PPE.
C19 is not stopping until herd immunity is reached. PERIOD.
The spread will slow as we approach herd immunity.
The percent of people necescary to reach herd immunity may be lower based on population density – and maybe even social distancing measures,
Regardless all PPE serves a single purpose – to increase your personal odds of being part of the small percentage of people who are not naturally immune, and do not get C19 before herd immunity is achieved.
This means all our polices have been WRONG.
We should have sent children to school from day one.
We should have had everyone under 45 who has no other serious health complications at work from day one.
We NEVER should have locked down.
We should have focused on protecting those at the greatest risk.
Covid19 is likely to be viewed as an example of how to do everything totally wrong in the future.
Please note the doctors comment in the article Priscilla shared about masks. That is what I was addressing.
HCQ was suspected to be of value from near the start. It should have been used by Millions.
Not because it was KNOWN effective, but merely because it MIGHT work, and it was dirt cheap and readily available.
Trump was correct to tout its possible benefits, and those attacking him for doing so are evil.
Trump would have been correct EVEN if it turned out that HCQ did not work so long as it passed the “first do no harm” principle.
The desire to attack Trump is so great that the left and the media completely lose their grip on sanity.
Absolutely Trump occasionally says some things I wish he did not.
Though there is a game being played here as he rarely says the things we are told he says.
Trump is a racist, homophibic, transphobic, bigot – because he says things that the far left has decided are racist, homophobic, ….
Listen to the Mt. Rushmore speech. It is easy to see why the left considers it divisive.
Trump attacked those who want to destroy our history.
He attacked those who reject the proposition that this country is exceptional.
He attacked those who want a revolution, who want to bun and loot, and destory.
He attacked those who think we can do without police.
He attacked socialism.
He attacked the enemies of individual liberty.
That is the part of his speech that is “dark and divisive”
He did not defend dead confederate generals.
He did defend Washinton, Jefferson. Lincoln, and Theodore Roosevelt.
The presidents on Mt. Rushmore.
Absolutely that speech is “dark and divisive” – if you are on the far left.
I do not think the speech was a great speech.
It was not the gettysburg address,
But it was a good speech appropriate for the occasions.
But it was not the speech that spoke to me – it was the response to the speech.
I am told that Trump is “desparate” – and yet, he continues to appear calm and continuing much as he has in the past.
But the left, the media, democrats become increasingly unhinged.
I expect lunatic remarks by Rep. Omar. I did not from Sen. Duckworth.
What I see and hear in the press everyday makes me more certain all the time that it is democrats who are increasingly desperate.
Regardless, back to your point.
EVERYTHING today is politicized.
If Trump says it – it must be wrong. It must be attacked, It must be racist.
I do not agree with everything Trump says and does.
But he is the best of the last 3 presidents. Possibly the best since Reagan.
I have repeatedly addressed trust, and integrity here.
All of us right, left, …. can TRUST that Trump will keep or try to keep his campaign promises.
I do not agree with all of those – but I can live with his campaign promises.
I know where we have common ground and where I can work to thwart him.
I know if he is elected what I will get in foreign and domestic policy,
Conversely if Biden is elected – I have to pray that he will NOT try to do what he promises.
That is a somewhat easy prayer – as Trump is the first president in my lifetime, possibly ever to take campaign promises seriously.
I think Bolton nailed it when he said all Trump decisions were about getting re-elected.
Absolutely – by doing what he promised to do.
Why is that wrong ?
While I might agree that no president should treat campaign promises as biblical.
At the same time – absent a compelling reason to do otherwise – he should do what he promised.
Trump’s judicial appointments are as promised.
His foriegn policy – accross the board is “as promised” – we have reveresed our position on Iran. While Trump has returned Iran to its pariah status, he has NOT gone to war with Iran.
He has reversed the Obama nonsense in asia.
Obama and Clinton fawned over TPP as the means to counter China.
At the start of Trump’s term China was surrounded by vasal states kow towing to her.
Today China is surrounded by enemies.
Almost the entirety of Asia is united with the US in confronting China.
TPP did not accomplish that. Obama did not. Trump did.
China under Xi has gone in the wrong direction.
There is a very real possibility that will fail, and China will return to its slow march to freedom sooner rather than later.
Trump has deregulated like no president ever. Far more than I expected.
He has also continued to increase employment – far past levels that were thought impossible.
C19 has harmed both employment and the economy – but less that predicted, and the recovery appears to be dramatic.
Worse for democrats – the harms of C19 have been far worse in blue states than red.
The average Red State UI is 5.2%, that in blue states is 15+%.
That alone explains the riots and unrest.
“Trump was correct to tout its possible benefits, and those attacking him for doing so are evil.”
WRONG!
Anyone in politics should keep their f’in mouth shut when it comes to possible treatments for any medical issue. If Obama had said anything about something going around in his first term as president, the Hannities, Breitbarts, Fox News and every other right wing news outlet would have gone after the “cure” because they wanted to make him a one term president also.
Presidents should stick to politics and shut up about mefical treatment. His physician advisors with knowledge of medicine should answer the question.
But then, we all know Trump knows 100% of everything from rocket science to sex.
“WRONG!
Anyone in politics should keep their f’in mouth shut when it comes to possible treatments for any medical issue. If Obama had said anything about something going around in his first term as president, the Hannities, Breitbarts, Fox News and every other right wing news outlet would have gone after the “cure” because they wanted to make him a one term president also.
Presidents should stick to politics and shut up about mefical treatment. His physician advisors with knowledge of medicine should answer the question.
But then, we all know Trump knows 100% of everything from rocket science to sex.”
WRONG!
This is precisely what we expect out of our presidents.
Trump did NOT tell people to inject bleach or to drink aquarium Cleaner.
He did not offer medical advice.
What he did was tell the people that progress was being made that there was hope.
He did pretty much the same things that FDR and Churchill did during WWII
And it is what we expect of the president.
In fact it is their job to be upbeat and encouraging even in the darkest hours.
The problem as always is not with what Trump said, but how the left and the media portrayed it.
Worse still the media and the left likely have blood on their hands.
The fight over HCQ left even doctors confused.
Ultimately what never should have become political became Political.
Trump did NOT say – see here is this miracle drug that I and republicans have wrought.
He said that health experts had briefed him about HCQ and it might be a “game changer”.
Churchill took Dunkirk which was a disasterous defeat for the British
More than 100K men and all of their weapons heavy and light were left to be captured
at a moment when neither the men nor the weapons were replaceable.
And still he made the british proud of themselves even in defeat.
So please tell me why the president is not allowed to offer hope during a pandemic ?
I honestly do not know at this point whether HCQ in any combination with anything else is actually beneficial.
But I do know that it is cheap and safe and that but for the 1:1000 people for whom there is a risk it should have been doled out like candy.
A propholactic dose coast almost nothing.
A treatment does cost pocket change.
Absent real evidence that it was harmful we should have been doling this out like Candy.
Why not ? If the risk is low and there is even a small possibility of a 20% reduction in ANYTHING – in risk of getting C19, in length of the disease, in severity, in mortality ?
Sorry, Ron, the problem here is not Trump – it is the left and the media.
And absolutely I would have expected the same of Obama under similar circumstances.
I do not know if Hannity and Fox would have attacked him over HCQ.
But they should not have.
And BTW just about every Governor in the country was on TV doing the same thing.
I am critical of some of their decisions.
But not of their efforts to reassure people.
For a while we had governors saying “we need ventalators” and Trump saying – “we have ventalators for you” – both Trump and many governors democrat and republican were patting each other on the back.
For some reason this fell apart as it became clear – we had more ventalators than we needed and they did not do much good anyway.
And if I were to be critical it would be that neither Trump nor the govenors gave credit where credit was due.
It was not Government that made the pandemic better. It was not government that solve our problems – it was the free market.
If we have a vaccine – by September, by January, by Ever – that will be the free market at work.
I have N95 masks and filters out the whazzoo – Free markets.
I can bath in hand sanitizer – Free markets.
I have antiseptic wipes out the yingyang – Free markets.
Whatever I want – right to my door – Free markets.
Trump did not do that, Cuomo did not do that. Faucci did not do that.
The markets did.
Regardless, you have overly bought into this nonsensical Left wing nut position that Trump is uniquely different, that unlike any prior president he is not allowed to speak on subjects he is not blessedly expert.
This is nonsense.
Look, Trump does not speak to me. He speaks in the language of blue collar workers – and that is not me. I find his language inelegant.
But he is not speaking to me. And frankly he should not be speaking to me.
I am not the one who needs to hear him.
When Trump was saying HCQ could be a “game changer” he was telling millions of people that had lost their jobs – that MAYBE they might get them back soon.
He is doing similar cheerleading about the economy.
But he is not an economist. He is no more qualified to speak about the future economy than about possible medical treatments.
But he needs to say “we will get through this – we see the light at the end of the tunnel”
It is important.
The good news is that we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
And If I am going to attack Trump it is not because of his C19 briefings, but because he was in some ways complicit in shutting down the economy. That was a mistake and I think he new better. This $2T stimulus was also a huge mistake and he was part of that.
That is what I will be critical of.
Not his encouraging musings over HCQ.
If we allowed “the experts” to guide the country and answer the questions through this – we would all be dying of starvation right now.
No one will make money of any consequence from HCQ (or the steroids).
Widespread use of HCQ would politically benefit Trump and we can not have that.
Ron I agree that, in general, politicians shouldn’t be commenting on treatments, vaccines, etc.
In the context of the Coronavirus Task Force briefing, however, I don’t think it was out of line for Trump to mention HCQ. There were doctors present that could have answered any questions about it, and it was already being used off-label as a treatment, and had been for come time in other countries, such as France. So, Dave’s point that Trump was attempting to inject something hopeful into the briefing seems about right to me.
The Fear Machine that anti-Trump politicians and media have been driving since the beginning of this pandemic, has made it very difficult for anyone to get accurate information on anything. In a perfect world, a situation like this would transcend politics, and states would get important facts from the professionals in the president’s cabinet and task force, and we would get this information largely from the governors tasked with carrying out the response, according to federal guidelines.
But, we are not living in a perfect world. Obviously.
A serious question:
About half (65k of 136k) of all deaths so far have come from 5 states: NY, NJ, IL, MI and CT.
What, in good faith, do you think Trump could’ve done to persuade those blue-state Govs to act sooner?
I would love to attack those governors.
But beyond the stupidity of sending recovering patients to Nursing homes – which was total idiocy, and arguably premeditated murder, the evidence and my argument has been that there is no government policy that has mattered.
Blue state Governors are responsible for the negative effects of lockdowns, NOT C19.
Trump and republicans and democrats are responsible for the multiple Trillions blown on stimulus.
There is nothing that government could have done – beyond protect nursing homes that would have made a difference in the long run.
How do you figure? Governors were given guidelines by the federal government, and, under the emergency powers acts of each state , they had broad authorities to act in the interests of the public health.
Sure, it’s easy to say that Trump should have declared
his own authority over the situation, and usurped the powers of the governors. Then what? Activated the national guard to pull people off the streets? Had federal agents dispatched to arrest people for going to a park with thir kids?
There would have been widespread condemnation and declarations of Hitlerian behavior.
And those declarations would have been largely correct. It’s the governors who are charged with the responsibility of acting in the interests of their states. The federal government is charged with providing guidelines, equipment from emergency supplies (which, unfortunately , was emptied by previous administrations), federal funds, if necessary, and ongoing communication.
Of course it’s possible ~ easy, even ~ to blame Trump in retrospect for not declaring the entire country shut down, long before there was a single death, and with only a few infections. That’s Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest. Half of the people accusing him of acting too slowly, had previously demanded that he act even slower!
And I’m not defending the totality of Trump’s response ~ in fact I think he was catfished into overreacting in some ways. But, I do think that, on the whole, his administration responded, and continues to respond, in a controlled and constitutional way. But nothing that this admin did or will do will ever be given credit.
And protecting the nursing homes was a very clear responsiblity of the governors. And, blue state governors largely failed in that responsibilty, and have “blood on their hands”.
I have uniformly attack governors for action on that authority to lock things down.
They cause lots of damage in doing so – but they did not make C19 any worse – or better.
I can blame governors for tanking the economy – and all the harm that caused.
I can not blame them for making C19 worse – they did not. They also did not make it better.
I would love to be able to say – Red governors good, blue governors bad – and with respect to the economy and handling riots that is absolutely true. but with respect to C19 demographics and latititude, not government policies are the difference.
Priscilla, If one leans right or further, there is little a president could do.
If you lean left or further, the federal government should have shut down all business nationwide, restricted all movement, quarenteened anyone that had been outside their city for 14 days, face mask required with large fines for uncovered face, closed all beaches, parks and trails, restricted access to nursing homes and hospitals, martial law to restrict access to any roads by car and created a new federal agency that controlled all access, movement and distribution of testing supplies and lab access.
And if your in the middle you could care less one way or the other.
What I would like to see is a study of NY and their results. They represent 13-14% of the total cases, while representing 23% of total deaths. And of these deaths, NY City represents 53% of the states cases, but 74% of the states deaths.
One would not expect to find that significant a difference in percentages. Is it age, nursing homes, race, income level, etc that caused this 20% difference in deaths. Access to health care, physician treatment patterns, hospitalization or non hospitalized patients?
The death percentages now can not be compared to earlier results state to state due to new meds, new treatments and the age of those getting ill. But the state of NY and NY City all happened at the same time and that is the study needed.
But I dont think the virus is why Trump will lose, nor the reason Shumer will be majority leader. There are way too many that are totally turned off to Trump, the man. “Anything has to ge better that Trump” voters. He has a good day, then destroys the good with multiple self distruction bombs, no matter what the subject. If it were not the fact I have tuned out all news and just get tidbits, I would have Trump fatigue like so many others that just think Biden will disappear to the White House to be seen only during SOTU.
There are multiple issues and they are not left/right not unless the law and the facts do not matter
What can the president do – very little. There is no general police power for the federal government. Pretty much everything the federal government does in health is at the borders, research, and recomendations. Drug approval falls under bad SCOTUS decisions on interstate commerce. Finally only borders is the domain of the president. Everything else the president can do is limited to what congress has authorized.
It is highly unlikely that there would be much difference between Obama, Trump and Biden on C19. Trump reacted faster than Obama shutting down the boarders – but not fast enough.
Biden claims he would have acted faster, but at the time he complained Trump was overreacting. Biden, Obama, Trump would have all SAID much the same things – though not in the same words. I have little doubt that Obama and Trump would have talked up HCQ,
That is a no brainer. It would give people hope – just as Churchill managed to portray Dunkirk – a huge defeat as somehow a heroic victory. Some of the conservative press would have attacked Obama – though probably not in nearly the same way.
The differences between them would not be so much what they did and said but HOW they said it. Trump is speaking to Blue Collar America. Obama and Biden the educated elite.
On C19 this is the only consequential difference.
Congress has very limited power to pass additional laws. Mostly they can just give the state money. Action still must be done by the states.
I expect there would have been differences in what congress would have done with Obama/Biden as president. The unemployment money would have been the same. But unemployment would not have been expanded to GIG workers, and most aide to bussiness would have been replaced by aide to state governments.
Obama/Biden would have spent less – if republicans had the ability to stop it.
Because republicans do not like deficits – when democrats are in charge.
The behavior of the states would have been much the same under Obama/Biden as Trump
The constitution leaves public health issues in the hands of the states.
There are differences between states – mostly as a matter of state law.
In general – whether at the federal or state level the emergency powers of the executive SHOULD be seriously time limited. A president or governor can act unilaterally – based on legislation allowing them to do so – in an emergency. But they should ALWAYS be required to go back to state legislatures for approvals as soon as that is possible.
But that is not uniformly the law.
Existing federal legislation allowed Trump to fund the Wall, but Congress had the ability to override – but they had to ACT to do so. That is the wrong default. It does not matter whether we are talking the state or federal government.
But the evidence – then and more so now, is that the government should have done very little. It could RECOMEND that people social distance and wear maskes but it should never have forced the issue.
And we should not have killed the economy – or blown trillions to pretend to save it.
As stimulus programs go. Trump’s stimulus is about the last bad possible. To a very large extent he has allowed people to figure out how to best spend the stimulus at the level of the individual – and not micromanaged it from the top.
Everyone’s needs are different.
Ron, I agree with you on the that those on the left believe that a president should be an authoritarian ruler (as long as he’s imposing leftist policies). But it still infuriates me that we have a major political party that is well on its way to going completely in the tank with socialists and Marxists. I don’t give a rip how anyone feels about Trump personally ~ speaking for myself, I don’t presume to know him, or any other national politico, so I don’t judge him on his personal qualities. I agree with 80% of his policies, and that’s good enough for me.
That said, I think that someone in his inner circle needs to get him focused on his campaign message. His Rose Garden speech today (I guess it was a speech) was pretty rambling and repetitive. He did a great job listing all of the extreme left policies that Biden now supports, but he also seemed less energetic and optimistic than usual. and I found myself getting a little bored.
Of course, if Trump listened to anyone in his inner circle, he’d probably do a lot of things differently. My gut feeling is that he has lost some ground to Biden during the pandemic and the riots, but he’ll bounce back. On the other hand, Biden, who is supposedly likeable (I find him phony and creepy most of the time) is a weak candidate. Maybe not as weak as Hillary, but he does not inspire anyone, and he definitely comes off as cognitively challenged. If he’s not senile, he is putting on a great act.
On another note, I was in NC this weekend, checking on house things. My first real summer visit. Oh, my lord, you are not kidding about the humidity!
No one tells the emperor he wears no cloths. Anyone crosses Trump, they are fired. Happens to anyone that questions anything he does.
July 15 to Aug 15 is the worst. Was at Ocean Isle last year, on the beach 90+ with 70% humidity. I stayed inside most of the days except morning and late afternoons. Hopefully this year will be more bearable.
Trump punches back twice as hard at those who attack him.
But I do not have the sense that he fires people for holding different views.
He has brought in a surprising variety of capable people – many of whom are not in full agreement with him.
From what I see in the Trump administration you get fired for PUBLICLY disagreeing – or for leaking. Not for privately disagreeing.
It is my understanding that there was a holy war between Mattis, McMasters and Trump over Afghanistan and Trump was angry as hell. But ultimately he capitulated and gave “the generals” a full year to turn afghanistan arround despite his personal instincts.
They failed to do so, and now almost 4 years later we are leaving.
That does not sound like Fires anyone who disagrees.
McMasters and Mattis FAILED. Trump is famous for firing those of fail.
I have no problem with that.
I remain Disturbed about the firing of Sec. State Tillerson. I though he WAS doing as Trump expected – he was seriously streamlining State. I had no sense there was conflict.
Trump appears to be getting allong much better with Pompeo. But he has bloated State again.
Most of the rest of the firings make sense.
Further we hired a person whose impramatur was “Your Fired”.
Did you expect that people would not get fired ?
Many people have left Trump amicably – Niki Haley, Rick Perry.
Many like Devos and Carson have served a long time effectively.
unseen consequences of the stimulus
https://reason.com/2020/07/02/as-bastiat-would-say-peer-past-the-obvious-with-pandemic-policies/
German and Swedish studies find higer levels of C19 immunity than from antibodies alone.
The Swedes found that about 20% of the population has antibodies to C19, and another 20% has Tcell immunity – likely from prior Corona Virus Colds.
The german study found that 81% of people who have NOT been infected by C19 appear to be immune. Probably as a result of prior Corona Virus Colds.
This means between 40 and 80% of us may be naturally immune
This correlates with modeling studies that concluded that 50% of us are immune and 30% of us are highly resistant to C19
It is likely that none of us are 100% immune. But that about 80% of us are to some degree resistant and the degree of resistance varies.
It is likely that some people wil get C19 from minor exposure and others require being exposed for hours to someone with a high viral load, while others are completely immune.
https://reason.com/2020/07/01/covid-19-herd-immunity-is-much-closer-than-antibody-tests-suggest-say-2-new-studies/?itm_source=parsely-api
Corona Virus theories and data studies are all like butt holes, and we all know what is said about them.!
If you are are about to do something that is going to cause a vast assortment of societal harms. You had damn well better be sure that the benefits outweigh the harms.
You say there are lots of Corona Virus theories – fine, you do not get to destroy society on the unproven hope your theory might work.
Worse still we knew ahead of time that all this rot would atmost slow the virus down.
Killing the same number of people over a longer time frame is NOT an improvement.
And after the fact we have proven what we knew at the start.
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/12/890030168/fresh-scrutiny-for-foxs-tucker-carlson-as-top-writer-quits-over-bigoted-posts
Yep. This is the conservative universe of trump and his movement. Birds of a feather. Carlson is no better. Perhaps trump can make him surgeon general in his next term based on his medical expertise.
Drain the swamp, ha, the conservative universe IS the swamp.
Hang in there Robby, only 193 more days of your agony, then we on the right of the spectrum can begin feeling your pain.
Only 193 more days of this pain Roby and then we on the right of the spectrum can begin feeling your pain you have felt since 2017.
Well, 193 days plus vote counting, which will take what, a week? A month? and may well be as controversial as 2000.
The pain will not have the flavor of trump and his personality cult followers, it will be general liberal hubris flavored, much like the pendulum swings back and forth between right and left that have gone on all my life.
I do sympathize with you in advance, I am sure I will be shaking my head at a lot of the actions of the Dems. First of all, they will interpret their victory as huge voter love for their party rather than a victory based on rejection of the trump GOP disaster by the middle. Hubris will follow. The question will be whether the GOP will be too radioactive to make a comeback in 2022.
YES, and the win the I think is coming will be big enough that the democrats will make the Obama years look like a weak sibling. If Shumer does not get his super majority I have beliefs that he will go the way of Reid and change senate rules to eliminate any need for compromise just as Reid did with judges. This, in itself, will have major damaging impacts on this country in the future as just seeing the marginalization of opposing parties in California should warn us of things to come. Had it not been for Reids actions, Trump would never have been able to fill almost every open federal judge seat and by Dec 2020 most will be filled. His appointments averaging 49 years old and representing almost 30% of the total judgeships would never have occurred had a 60 vote majority senate vote been required. He has shaped the courts for years to come and democrats need to look at that when the look to change other legislative action to 51 votes. They might be happy until the next GOP senate becomes real, then paybacks are hell.
Ron,
take some anti-depressants.
Look arround you.
Democrats are not ebulent – they are depressed. They are not celebrating, they are rioting, the loonatics are in control and even many sane democrats are behaving nuts.
Democrats are busy purging each other.
If as you claim there was actually a big blue wave in 2020 – which I highly doubt, you are correct – what comes will be worse than Obama – and as a result incredibly short lived.
Obama’s election birthed the Tea Party. What do you think will happen if Biden moves left of Obama ?
The pendulum is not swinging left – it is swinging right. What we are seeing is the panic and frenzy on the left as they are facing the prospect of even more loss of power.
Dave, dont need meds. But your optomism that a Biden agenda will be short lived is Disneyland mentality. Fantasy.
What people dislike about Trump is short lived.
But Bidens healthcare, free college, environmental policy, taxes, unfair trade, immigration and military will not be short lived. Do you REALLY think once they create M4A under a democrat agenda that will offer things like transgender reassignment will be repealed the year the GOP takes control? Will free college be repealed? When has the GOP repealed any social program?
You are constantly complaining about Medicare. Has the GOP ever changed anything with that to reduce coverage? Seems I remember changes in the early 00’s that they almost immediately repealed!
“But Bidens healthcare, free college, environmental policy, taxes, unfair trade, immigration and military will not be short lived. Do you REALLY think once they create M4A under a democrat agenda that will offer things like transgender reassignment will be repealed the year the GOP takes control? Will free college be repealed? When has the GOP repealed any social program?”
Who is actually talking about those things ? If Biden talks about the things that Dems talked about during the primary – he is going down in flames.
Trump just accused Biden of plagerizing his “buy american” plan – and he is right.
Biden does appear to be tacking towards Trump policies. He has to. To win the election he must win the rust belt. But he is no longer trusted there.
“You are constantly complaining about Medicare. Has the GOP ever changed anything with that to reduce coverage? Seems I remember changes in the early 00’s that they almost immediately repealed!”
Did I say I was a republican ?
Robby – whatever the outcome it will not be close.
My biggest concern is this mail in voting craze.
Even MIT noted that vote by mail is the easiest to corrupt,
and a recent NJ election has 20% mail in ballot fraud.
That is what will cause a mess in 2020.
But if we have a real election done the normal way – this will not be a repeat of 2000.
But if you beleive that is the cause – then you should join me in fixing what is broke in out elections. We failed to do that in 2000.
No mail in voting. Absentee ballots must be done in person with ID before a notary.
In person voting must be with ID.
If the margin of victory in any election is smaller than the margin of counting error – have an automatic runnoff 2 weeks later.
No recounts, no court battles.
The outcome you seem to think is likely is the worst possible for Dems.
Until you end this PC nonsense. Until you cease accusing everyone you disagree with of being a racist and a hatefull hating hater – this country is going to be extremely bitterly divided.
But those divisions are not even simple red/Blue – the left is as vigorously persecuting its own heretics as anything else.
There is a holy war going on in the NYC School district right now – and there is not a republican in site.
Liberal pundits who spoke out against cancel culture – are being excoriated as racists.
Actually go read JK Rowlings remarks that got her branded a Transphobe.
You can not blame Trump or republicans for the internal purges within the left.
If you win this election – that will only get worse.
I honestly do not think you have a chance of winning this election – I think there is a large under the surface backlash brewing – and there is lots of evidence of that.
But say I am wrong – that only speaks to WHEN the backlash occurs.
And I am worried – because the left is so incredibly destructive. they will destroy themselves – or they will provoke real violence.
You do not understand that you can only infringe on peoples rights so far.
The left has been driving gun sales in the US up for well over a decade.
People are getting guns because they beleive they will need them – either the live in the lawless society you bring about, or to retake the government.
Todate the real political violence has been exclusively from the left.
But if this continues – political violence from the right will come. But it will not be lone schitzophrenics, nor white supremacists.
You saw peaceful armed protestors in statehouses accross the country.
What happens when they “peacefully” take over those statehouses ?
You have alienated the police – do you think they are going to help ?
Do you think that a President Biden or Harris can get the national guard to take on armed americans shutting down state governments ?
Ron, I see no path to a Dem Senate super majority. They will be lucky to get a slim majority. The House will be more or less as it is now, a few seats either way. Trump will lose by 8-10 in the general as of today. Too much for the EC to save him and the GOP.
If things go really really badly with COVID, and thus the economy, in the next three months it may be a worse GOP defeat than that.
It will be an enormous mistake for the Dems to change the Senate rules, Who knows they could make that mistake, yes. There will be plenty of swing state dems in the Senate who are not by any means progressives, they will push back against the Sanders agenda. In any case, there will be no money to do anything big anyway after COVID, we will simply be trying to rebuild. The Biden years will consist of putting the country back on its feet after trump and COVID.
Roby, you have more faith in the parties doing what right for the country than I have. You know I have never supported Trump, the person, but had anyone else done what he has accomplished with trade, judicial appts, regulations, paris accords and other issues, he would be considered right up there with Reagan by the right. Even his brain dead tax reforms that should have only addressed the differences in taxes in each country to make ours more equitable and helped keep business here, but ended up expanding the deficit much more, is considered a positive by conservatives. I dont agrre with that part.
I do not see anyone in either party willing to tackle the disasterious impact on the economy, debt and deficit. The democrats are full throttle free healthcare, free college, open borders, more presidential powers through regulation ( because congress does not want their prints on controversial agenda items), a national minimum wage instead of a national regional adjusted MW, Paris Accords and environment controls.
The cost will be horrific. I am in the middle spectrum on most of these, but the dems position I foresee is scary. Hope your right and I am wrong. I see a definite 53-47 “D” senate, with a good possibility of 58-42, and I am giving 3 tossup states to the GOP.
And yes, we have a “lifetime” between jow and the election. Just look what has happened since March 22.
“Trump’s brain dead tax reform”
You solution is far WORSE than Trump’s.
Corporate taxes are just plain stupid. Corporations can do two things with profits.
They can invest them in the company, or they can return them to shareholders.
The worst thing you can do with corporate profits is tax them.
The corporate tax on foreign earnings should be zero. The corporate tax on US earnings should be zero.
The tax on corporate investment should be zero.
Dividends to shareholders should be taxed as ordinary income.
Trump brought us closer to exactly that.
Trump has spent more than he should have and more than he promised. But there is no connection between the tax reforms and deficits. Even the much derided and badly structured Bush tax cut did actually pay for itself
The Trump tax cut was passed in 2017. Its first effect would have been 2018 – revenues were slightly up from 2017, In 2019 they were significantly up. In 2020 they are projected to be up even more significantly, and in 2021, further still.
We do not have a tax problem – we have a spending problem.
The deficit increases because spending is out of control.
Trump has done little so far to address that.
But democrats propose to make that far worse.
According to WaPo there is still no red state with a death rate that is higher than 1/4 that of the top 4 blue states.
CA currently has the highest death rate in the country. And it is still 1/4 the peak death rate in NY which is 1/2 the size of CA.
There is some evidence that there is a small increase in C19 deaths as the economy opens up, and people start resuming their lives. but that increase is proportionate to the end of the lockdowns, NOT the increase in testing
Regardless, there is no 2nd lockdown coming.
Red states are continuing to move forward.
While blue ones are stalling.
You are likely to have a very large number of disgruntled people in blue states in November,
I think they will be angrier at their governors. than at Trump.
“It will be an enormous mistake for the Dems to change the Senate rules, ”
But they are going to the first chance they get.
“There will be plenty of swing state dems in the Senate who are not by any means progressives,”
How well did that work when Dems took the house in 2018 – nearly all the new seats were won by D’s who were not progressive. These are the ones losing their seats now – because the house swung way to the left despite them.
“In any case, there will be no money to do anything big anyway after COVID, we will simply be trying to rebuild. The Biden years will consist of putting the country back on its feet after trump and COVID.”
Wishful thinking. R’s only oppose spending when out of power. D’s never oppose spending.
If you think that Covid will have any effect on federal spending your nuts.
I was so strongly hoping that trump would avert justice for Roger Stone. I knew I could count on trump to act in his uniquely principle-free manner. I also knew that that trump GOP, his voters and the politicians and media figures are so bound to their cult figure that they cannot ever get free and will have to support this.
I am loving this.
Joe does not have to do much other than keep breathing and let trump destroy himself.
Sorry for the double post. on the earlier comment. Did not show as posted from wordpress until I posted the second one, then they both posted.
Anyway, if the democrats lets Joe Biden out of the basement to campaign, they are nuts! The only way Joe loses is if he dies or opens his mouth. And he is bringing the senate and House with him.
I am just glad I do not have a whole lifetime left like my kids and grandkids have with the prospects of the government I see coming down the road.
Ron, I am not all that worried that Biden will win.
It is unlikely, but should it happen – democratic victories are self punishing acts.
Regardless, there is nothing Biden can do. The election is outside his control.
If C19 deaths actually skyrocket – Trump will lose.
If the economy stays in the crapper – Trump will lose.
If a meteor strikes the rust belt – Trump will lose.
I would not bet on any of those.
Justice for Roger Stone would be never to have been grilled by Mueller, and never to have been subject to these bogus politically motivated charges, Vertainly never to have had to face a jury as biased as he did with a judge who is no better.
While Stone is no hero – he is just an ordinary political hack. He has also committed no crime – beyond offending the left by picking a winner.
Justice for Roger Stone would be getting to celebrate his LEGITIMATE victory over his political equivalents on the left.
YOU and your ilk are busy criminalizing politics while mobilizing govenrment agencies as political weapons.
YOU should be ashamed of yourself.
If Trump had the same morals as Obama, in 2024 when he leaves office – if he is succeeded by a democrat, he should mine the federal government just as Obama did on his way out.
Your right-wing view of crime and punishment is great entertainment. Again, you have not let me down, Splendid!
“Your right-wing view of crime and punishment is great entertainment. Again, you have not let me down, Splendid!”
Name an actual crime involving Stone that was being legitimately investigated by Mueller
If you want to claim Stone was engaged in obstruction – what legitimate criminal inquiry was he thwarting ?
What is it you are loving ? Recent poll has the election at a dead heat 47/47, but predicts Trump will win the EC by 40 votes.
Same poll indicates that undecideds lean Trump by 60/40.
That Trump is ahead in all swing states.
This is only one poll – an it is an outlier from other national polls.
But it tracks strongly many state polls.
I doubt Trump is actually tie with Biden right now – just as I doubt that Trump is 10pts down.
But I also suspect that Trump would win if the election was held today.
And the next could of months are not likely to be democrat freindly.
We now have reports that Antifa has plans to keep the rioting up all the way to the election.
Do you think that is going to serve democrats well ?
“What is it you are loving ? Recent poll has the election at a dead heat 47/47, but predicts Trump will win the EC by 40 votes.”
Wonderful! Your course is clear! Bet all you have! Mortgage the house and bet that too! You can get great odds on a trump comeback!
(Want to name the taker of the recent poll?)
The poll I cited can be found on RCP,
It was commissioned by a news paper, and conducted by a Washington polling firm.
I have no idea about its bonafides.
But I know that all the national polls were wrong in 2016.
And I know that the local polls that were right in 2016 are in agreement with this poll.
And I know that actual elections recently such as CA25 and NY16 agree with this poll and conflict with the national polls.
This poll could be wrong, the state polls could be wrong. the people who were right in 2016 could be wrong in 2020. The people who were wrong in 2016 could be right in 2020.
Those kind of things have happened.
But right now there as much reason to trust the guy with his finger in the air as any of the polls.
The closet thing we have to a real clue – is CA25 and NY16.
Those were real elections – not polls. Real people had to vote.
BTW – I am not betting on a Trump “Comeback”
While I think that Trump’s chances will improve in the next few months.
What I am betting on is that he has already Won.
You say this poll may be wrong – maybe you are right. Maybe the national polls are right.
But they were not in 2016.
So that I am perfectly clear – Trump is not making a comeback. He would win if the election was today.
Roby, dont drink Dave’s cool-aide. Biden is also even with Trump in Texas. That is what happens in conservative states when idiot legislators recruit liberal business bringing in liberal voters and expect their state to benefit.
I will be suprised if Trump gets to 260 electoral votes, more like 240-250.
Ron,
This is not about coolaid.
What is correct will ultimately be determined in November.
And I am not expert at reading the country – but neither are the polls.
Right now we have alot of information to sense what is likely to happen in the election.
There is no doubt that the national polls are running in Bidens favor.
I have read some critiques of the methodology of those polls and the fact that there will be a significant shift in August when the way the polls are done changes – this is normal and happens every election.
Regardless, Biden appears to be ahead in most national polls.
But all data does not point to a Biden victory. I noted CA25 and NY16 many times.
Those districts are much like districts Biden and democrats must win to keep the house and to pick up the presidency. And yet not only did the democrat lose – but lost by double digits.
Nor were these races where democrats ran poor candidates, and republicans ran great ones. There were not red districts. These were swing districts – and democrats lost by 10pts.
I wish we had more of that kind of information – real elections are quite different from polls. They tell us more than polls.
But CA25 and NY16 are all we have right now.
There are polls that contradict the major national polls. But they are not major polls.
There are also conflicting state polls – the poll that got the rust belt right in 2016, is polling the same right now as in 2016. Further the polster says there are MORE “shy trump voters” in 2020 than in 2016. He is saying that Trump will beat Biden by slightly more than Clinton in 2020.
The national poll that put Trump and Biden at 47/47 also asked questions of undecideds to try to guess where they were leaning, and they beleive the undecideds were going to break for Trump by almost 2:1.
One of the questions they asked of undecideds is whether they new other voters that were likely voting for Trump/Biden but not admitting it. The point of this question is NOT the actual question, but to try to determine whether the undecided voter was actually a Trump voter or a Biden voter that was not ready to admit it 2:1 undecides claimed to know “shy trump voters”
But most important to me is that democrats are not celebrating. They are behaving bat $h!t crazy. They are behaving like they are losing. They are behaving as if they must continue to make absolutely crazy claims or they are toast.
Conversely Trump is not panicking. He is playing his game his way. He is continuing to follow his strategy.
I do not know whether the polls are accurate – but I suspect that Trump and Democrats do.
And Trump is not desparate, and democrats are.
Roby, dont drink Dave’s cool-aide.”
Moi? Never! trump won in 2016 with a slim but existing chance. If the vote were today he would have no chance. He is far underwater in the swing states, dave’s wild theories notwithstanding.
But … events and 3 months time. I won’t be remortgaging my house to bet the Biden could not possibly lose. Right now, trump is losing badly, how many electoral votes is not of that much importance, though I would love to see him smashed.
Again the Senate is not headed for a dem supermajority unless things go fantastically bad by election day. I don’t want the dems to have more than a slim majority and I will get my wish.
Trump is ahead in the swings states according to the polster who got 2016 right.
Maybe he is wrong this time. We will see.
I can not force an actual election tomorow, so we do not get to test this.
But I am not concerned.
I do not think the poll that says the popular vote is a 47/47 dead heat is correct, I also do not think the polls saying Biden has an 8pt lead are correct either.
I do beleive if the election were held tomorow the result would be very similar to 2016.
But you are sort of right about one thing – all of this is going to change over the next couple of months.
If your pessimism about C19 proves correct – if there is an actual doubling of deaths – especially in red states – Trump is toast. If the recovery collapses – Trump is toast.
But there is no real science behind your C19 pessimism, it is based on the magical idea that somehow the US is different from the rest of the world.
And Barring a large spike in C19 deaths and a draconian return to lockdowns – the economy will surge in the next couple of months – it already has. Pretty much everything that is likely to happen favors Trump.
I am also seeing incredibly stupid Biden attack adds. Biden recently went after Trump on China. Claiming Trump was duped by China. Maybe so – but who beleives that Biden who was fawning all over China and whose son is in bed with China is going to do better on China than Trump. That add was stupid and desparate. You do not attack your oppoenents strengths and your own weaknesses.
Enjoy
https://tolleystopics.com/2019/08/20/i-think-all-sports-fans-will-get-a-kick-out-of-this-letter-written-to-the-chicago-tribune-enjoy/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Lets see a Carlson writer gets fired for replying to a post of someone else that appears to be racist, and your conclusion is Carlson is a racist ?
I have replied to the posts of people who are racists, and you have interacted with me – does that make YOU a racist ?
Carlson has some flaws – But the left is the swamp.
As we have learned today it is now racist for white men to play with the children of their black friends.
I am near certain that large portions of the left think I am racist – because I have adopted asian children. I just should have left my daughter to die in a chinese orphanage, and my son to grow up without a family ?
Robby – it is YOU and your friends on the left how are tearing the country apart.
That is what happens when you call everyone who disagrees with you a hateful, hating hater.
Splendid! You did not let me down! First class deflection! In fact, Fox News ITSELF called Neff a hateful hating hater. “”Neff’s abhorrent conduct on this forum was never divulged to the show or the network until Friday, at which point we swiftly accepted his resignation,” the network said in an internal memo.”
“Make no mistake, actions such as his cannot and will not be tolerated at any time in any part of our work force.” “Horrendous and deeply offensive.”
But your standards are far lower than their’s and your bullshit denial factory always has a distracting answer that you think is clever.
As I have said, the further left one goes the more racism is everywhere and the further right one is the more racism is nowhere, just doesn’t exist. You are way out there on the right and to you almost no words are bad enough to qualify as racism. Yes, I think you are a racist, and not a small mild one, based on your bullshit deflections and defenses of indefensible people and actions. You have proved it. You and your right wing friends make a stink you cannot disguise. The far left is stupid, naive, often totally obnoxious, and IS definitely harmful. But the far right is vile, destructive and slowly on the way towards history’s garbage can. You can go there with with them, dinosaur.
“Splendid! You did not let me down! First class deflection! In fact, Fox News ITSELF called Neff a hateful hating hater.Neff’s abhorrent conduct on this forum was never divulged to the show or the network until Friday, at which point we swiftly accepted his resignation,” the network said in an internal memo.”
An I am happy to judge you by the same standards you apply to Carlson.
I have replied to posts by others that are racist.
You have replied to my posts.,
By the transitive laws of racism – you are therefore a racist.
Go flagellate yourself.
Neff is not obligated to share his social media life with Fox,
Though they are free to fire him.
I have not thoroughly researched Neff’s posts – but the few I have seen so far that were purportedly problematic – were not. The posts that were racist – were the ones by others that he replied to, He ignored the racism and addressed their actual argument.
Just as sometimes I ignore your Trump delusion and address your core argument.
Whether Fox Fires Neff or not is their business. From what I see it is a mistake.
“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”
If you are not prepared to defend offensive speech, no one will be there when they come for you.
You have made it clear that you are an intolerant and hateful person.
I am as inclined to defend your speech as that of actual nazi’s.
I am as disinclined to defend your hatred and intolerance as that of actual nazi’s.
If you do not want compared to nazi’s – do not behave like one.
And quit claiming that everything you disagree with is hate.
Robby – I have no position on Neff. As I said, I saw no problem with the few of HIS posts that I saw. But maybe there are others.
I also have no problem with Fox firing him.
But YOU have created this transitive property of racism – and have played this idiot game that because Neff replied to a post by someone else that was racist – that his boss – Carlson is therefore a racist.
AS I noted – by that standard YOU are a racist.
There is much about Carlson to criticise. There is much about any of us to criticise.
But if you are going to call Carlson a racist – you had better come up with better proof.
Frankly, you have not even made the case about Neff.
But you are happy to lob racism hand grenades thoughtlessly – without any consideration for the fact that you have a grenade in your own hand with the pin pulled.
If you want me to conclude that Neff is a Racist – Cite Neff’s posts that are racist.
If you want me to conclude that Carlson is a Racist – cite racist remarks or acts by Carlson.
This third cousin to a racist twice removed nonsense is tedious and damn’s you.
I am sure I can find plenty of examples of your personal racism – using the carlson racism transitivity property you have just owned.
Regardless, it is obvious from your own posts that you are hatefilled.
You do not get to escape by vague declarations about the far left.
You make false moral accusations about others.
That is immoral. that is hateful.
“You are way out there on the right and to you almost no words are bad enough to qualify as racism. Yes, I think you are a racist, and not a small mild one, based on your bullshit deflections and defenses of indefensible people and actions. You have proved it. You and your right wing friends make a stink you cannot disguise. ”
Robby – I really do not care what your opinion is of anyone.
My critique of you is primarily targeting your own immorality.
I do not give a $h!t whether you think you are on the left, the right, …
Your moral conduct, your intolerance and your hatred of people who disagree with you,
is not distibguishable from that of the far left, or from that of actual nazi’s.
You have just ranted about me above.
So what is this “racism” of mine ?
I defend free speech – absolutely, all the time – even your hate speech.
I also attack those like you who lob claims of racism casually.
I have seen no evidence that Carlson is more racist than normal – but you have already excoriated him as a racist, merely because Neff works for him.
I do not know that Neff is a racist based on the evidence I have seen – but you bypassed establishing that Neff is racist and have blindly accepted and repeated the charge – based on what evidence ?
Maybe there is evidence out there – but I do not tolerate accusations of things like racism without evidence. You have made such accusations and provided no evidence.
You continue to claim I am “far right” – based on what ?
Am I a neocon ?
You are making this idiot “racist adjacent” argument.
What is your evidence ?
If you are going to accuse me or anyone else of moral failures – what is your evidence ?
I HAVE accuse you of moral failure – and my evidence is self evident – you are constantly accusing others of moral failure without proving it. You have jumped from Neff, to Carlson to me – without proving anything at all – in Robby World accusation is proof – except when you are accused.
Regardless, I have made my case. You self evidently make false or unproven moral accusations against others constantly. You are not moral.
Your problem with me is not that I am on the far right – I am inarguably to the left or Ron and Priscilla. Your problem is that I do not let your constant false moral accusations slide.
My far right wing friends ?
Who would that be ?
I have attacked you for making false moral accusations about a large number of people.
That does not mean I like or agree with those people.
It merely means that if you are going to accuse others of lying or racism, that you are obligated to prove it – whether the person you accuse is someone I like or not.
Attacking you for making false allegations merely means I am intolerant of immorality.
“The far left is stupid, naive, often totally obnoxious, and IS definitely harmful. But the far right is vile, destructive and slowly on the way towards history’s garbage can. You can go there with with them, dinosaur.”
Please – describe the far right – name them, tell us what they beleive ?
Sanders, Warren, AOC, Omar, Ilbran, Preseley, those are clear political leaders on the far left today. there is little dispute over what they beleive.
What are there equivalents on the right,
Are you saying Trump is “far right” ? Most of his policies have the support of the majority of americans – many supermajorities. Even those I disagree with have huge popular support.
Where is this far right you are ranting about ?
If you want to affiliate me with the far right, if you want the country to be terrified by them, you need more than some purple monster under the bed.
Is Limbaugh extorting people to tear down the government ?
Carlson ?
Who is this dangerous far right you demand that we should fear ?
I have not thoroughly researched Neff’s posts – but the few I have seen so far that were purportedly problematic – were not. The posts that were racist – were the ones by others that he replied to, He ignored the racism and addressed their actual argument.”
If you have not researched Neffs posts, then perhaps you ought to before spouting off.
Perhaps this is what you mean by addressing the actual argument:
“As CharlesXII, Neff displayed a remarkable range of bigotries. Just last week, he participated in a forum entitled, “Would u let a JET BLACK congo n****er do lasik eye surgery on u for 50% off?” (The original title spelled out the offensive word.) Neff responded in the forum, “I wouldn’t get LASIK from an Asian for free, so no.”
And no Dave you are not defending freedom of speech, you are denying the clear meaning of someones words.
There is an uncomplicated reason why you always jump into passionate action to defend your friends on the far right. Its not defence of freedom of speech. It is your way of participating in the work of your right wing nut friends.
“If you have not researched Neffs posts, then perhaps you ought to before spouting off.”
If you call someone a racist – the burden of proof is on you.
It is not my job to research Neff – I am not defaming him.
“And no Dave you are not defending freedom of speech, you are denying the clear meaning of someones words.”
I would not have said what Neff said – nor would I have said almost anything you have said.
I have defended the free speach rights of actual nazi’s as well as the KKK in the past.
The clear meaning of the words is irrelevant to the right of free speech.
“There is an uncomplicated reason why you always jump into passionate action to defend your friends on the far right. Its not defence of freedom of speech. It is your way of participating in the work of your right wing nut friends.”
back to mind reading. So when I fought for the right of Nazi’s and the KKK to march through my town – that was actually because I am a Nazi/KKK member ?
If So why was I at their march protesting against them ?
You are extremely poor at mind reading.
There is a very uncomplicated reasons I pasionately defend free speech rights – because when we lose the right to free speech – the next right we excercise is the right to bear arms in order to alter and abolish government hat has been destructive of out rights.
BTW I have passionately defended the free speech rights of those on the left – when they are actually threatened. Trump has said lots of very stupid things about the free speech rights of others. But he has never ACTED to impair someone else’s actual free speech rights.
The fact that many of those whose free speech rights I am defending today are those on the right – is because they are the ones having their rights threatened.
I have zero doubt that if that effort is successful – it will be your and my rights that are threatened next.
You keep refering to this mythical far right.
What is the far right and what do they beleive ?
Supermajorities within this country support:
limits to immigration
oppose socialism
support ending the endless wars.
Support confronting China agressively
Support US energy independence.
Oppose tearing down statues – even confederate ones.
So how is it that you can identify someone on the “far right” ?
You keep saying that I am secretly aligned with the “far right”.
What principles, policies, etc, identify the “far right” ?
I think we all have a pretty good idea what the far left is.
But I am hard pressed to think of what you mean by Far right – that does not include 60+ % of americans.
That is pretty much NOT the “FAR RIGHT” – it is arguably not even the right.
There are what maybe 12 people on the “far right” in this country – David Dukes and Richard Spensor are the only ones I can think of – and frankly most of the neo-nazi types are both racists and socialists.
““If you have not researched Neffs posts, then perhaps you ought to before spouting off.”
If you call someone a racist – the burden of proof is on you.
It is not my job to research Neff – I am not defaming him.
“And no Dave you are not defending freedom of speech, you are denying the clear meaning of someones words.”
I would not have said what Neff said – nor would I have said almost anything you have said.”
Splendid Evasion. Fail.
I said Neff is a racist and his words prove it. I did not “defame” him, he defamed himself. You are not about to confront that obvious fact so, you evade. Not really clever, but expected.
The right wing nuts I speak of are the Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham, Tucker Carlson, Hannitty, and all the people who swallow their poison with pleasure, internalize it, and then regurgitate it. Yes, its tens of millions of people. The conservative movement has been deeply infected by this far right ideology. It has not swallowed every conservative by any means, but it has swallowed a majority of them.
Carlson actually defended his apprentice Neff last night and attacked the people who exposed Neff as “Ghouls.” The ghouls in my universe are the people who listen to Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham, Tuck Carlson, Hannity, Neff and the like and and believe it. That is the ugly and yes, shameful, right wing I am talking about. Its no small group.
There you have it, Dave, in your universe Me , my old mother, the democratic party in general, we are all marxists and left wing nuts who according to you are destroying America. Me and my left wing friends, as you call us.
So, right back at ya, In my universe, you are your right wing nut friends are destroying America, as a last gasp before history’s garbage can receives you.
It appears I do not need to respond to you
Barri Weis has resigned from the New York Times and her resignation letter is damning – to NYT, to the Left, and to YOU.
https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter
Read Weis and take note that YOU are her oppressor.
Dave, who is Bari Weiss. Not much info other than NYT crap when searching. And I dont thinkWIKI is creditable.
I only skimmed the start of the Wikipedia article on her.
But that was accurate. Regardless, she describes herself well in her resignation.
She came to NYT from WSJ after 2016.
She was hired by NYT because the Times realized after Clinton’s defeat that they were out of touch with 50% of the country. Her job was to bring a diversity of viewpoints to the NYT editorial page. Basically to make sure the NYT editorial page was not solely the official propoganda organ of the left. In her resignation she notes the significant voices that she was able to bring to the NYT editorial page
People like
Venezuelan dissident Wuilly Arteaga; the Iranian chess champion Dorsa Derakhshani; and the Hong Kong Christian democrat Derek Lam. Also: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Masih Alinejad, Zaina Arafat, Elna Baker, Rachael Denhollander, Matti Friedman, Nick Gillespie, Heather Heying, Randall Kennedy, Julius Krein, Monica Lewinsky, Glenn Loury, Jesse Singal, Ali Soufan, Chloe Valdary, Thomas Chatterton Williams, Wesley Yang,
She was also responsible for the excellent Tom Cotton editorial that got several others at the NYT fired and likely was the driving factor in her resignation.
But the point is not WHO was Barri Weis – aside from that she was the staff editor for the Editorial page – i.e. she was supposed to be responsible for the voice of the editorial page.
If it leaned one direction – that was on her, if it was diverse – that was on her. And it was her job to fix the fact that NYT had become the propoganda organ of the left.
She failed – and her resignation documents why she failed.
She failed for the same reasons that Robby is morally bankrupt.
Because no one at NYT has any interest in viewpoints other than their own, and because they will not listen to people who disagree, they will jump straight to vile defamation.
“The right wing nuts I speak of are the Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham, Tucker Carlson, Hannitty,”
So precisely why are they “right wing nuts ?”
Carlson is near a ringer for Ron – his policies and values are near identical to Ron’s.
There is also tremendous overlap between Carlson and Democratic presidential candidate Andrew Yang. Is Yang a “right wing nut” ?
Specifically why is Carlson a “right wingnut” ?
I would be shocked if you had the slightest clue about the policy positions of any one of these people.
I beleive you told me that Limbaugh was a racist earlier – you have yet to prove that.
I will note – and this applies to Neff and to you that someone is not a bigot or a racist or a homophobe for some remark they have made at some past point in their lives.
Otherwise everyone in the democratic party is a racist and homophobe.
Regardless, you have claimed that each of these people is a “right wing nut” – WHY ?
“all the people who swallow their poison with pleasure, internalize it, and then regurgitate it.”
Completely meaningless and subjective statement. By this definition – Hillary Clinton is a “right wing nut” – You are a “Right wing nut”.
You clearly “swallow poison with pleasure, internalize it, and then regurgitate it”.
Until you are prepared to actually address real issues and evidence – all you are doing is libel, slander, defamation, and absent evidence to support you defamation – your words are immoral.
“Yes, its tens of millions of people. The conservative movement has been deeply infected by this far right ideology. It has not swallowed every conservative by any means, but it has swallowed a majority of them.”
And still you have never once described what this “far right ideology” is ?
Ron & Priscilla – possibly even Rick are closer full support of Trump’s policies than I am.
Are they far right wingnuts ? Are they bigots ? Racists ? Homophobes ?
What is it besides you “guts” that allows you to identify a “far right wingnut” ?
“Carlson actually defended his apprentice Neff last night”
So ?
I am not happy that Neff would not get Lasik from an asian.
It is not a basis for erasing him from existence.
You do not hold Democrats to the same standards.
Go listen to some of Biden’s recent remarks – they are positively creepy.
Is it acceptable to you to call someone who asks you a good question – a dog faced pony soldier ? Or to fat shame questioners ? Is it acceptable to comment on the breast size of 14yr olds ? Have you listened to Biden’s CornPop stories ? In the unlikely event they are true – why would he be talking about them now ?
The point is that you are a hypocrit – Biden is no more defensible than Neff.
Actually that is false – Biden is a public figure making icky remarks in front of a camera.
Neff was not a public figure, he was exactly like you – a private person, posting under a pseudonym.
We properly do not hold people to the same standards for what they post anonymously.
We properly do not hold people to the same standards for what the say privately.
Carlson, Ingram, Hannity and Limbaugh should be judged by what they say publicly.
They have plenty of time to choose their words, and they know they may be permanently held accountable for their words.
Limbaugh has been attacked for things he said in the 70’s as a shock jock. He has apologized for those. Regardless it was 50 years ago and it was part of the expectations of the job.
So what is it these “right wingnuts” have said that damn’s them to the far right ?
What are the policies they advocate for ?
What is their conduct ?
I do not think that Carlson or Ingram or Limbaugh or Hanity have been accused of sexual assault ? If harrassing Women – but the man you are voting for as president has.
Is there video of any of these people inappropriately fondling under age girls or adult women they are not in a relationship with ?
You are a hypocrite. who spews hate.
I know nothing of your mother – beyond what you say. And you are not a trustworthy source.
I doubt I have ever accused her of anything, but if I have without knowing her – I apologize.
I can not judge a person I know nothing about – but I can judge you – and I can judge conduct.
You make moral accusations without proof. You do it always. You do it merely because you disagree with someone – though even that is not true – it is likely you agree with those “right wingnuts” on many issues, should you ever bother to listen to any of them.
Regardless you condem and defame people based on your uninformed judgement of them.
You condemned Neff before you had any idea what he had said, and then pretended that being unwilling to get lasik from an asian made him the worst sort of racist.
As well as condemning everyone even associated with him.
I do not recall accusing you of being a marxist.
What I have said is that you – and those you claim I have defamed are blind to the rise of cultural marxism on the left, while at the same time being heavily influenced by it, and lastly that not only are you blind to the rise of marxism on the extreme left – but you are ignorant of to bloody history – of not just marxism – but all forms of socialism.
The democratic party may not at this moment be marxist – though it sure is floating with cultural marxism, but it is knee deep in socialism.
You can claim to oppose that – fine. Do exactly that – actually oppose the rising socialism in the democratic party.
Read the Weis resignation – you will be drummed out of the left in 10seconds, you will be labeled a racist and bigot.
You can defame as racists – Limbaugh and others – that is easy for you to do – no one but me will make you pay any price for defaming Limbaugh. No one will expect you to prove you vile accusations before making them.
But criticise the left from within – and you will find yourself being labeled the next Limbaugh.
I doubt you are blind to this – but you have no courage. You are afraid of being attacked in the same way you attack others. So you will not dare really stand up. You will wag your fingers at nameless far lefties – caricatures but you will not merely do nothing to stop the socialist creep of the democratic party – you will enable it.
What is it that Trump as DONE in the past 4 years that is a tiny portion of the threat to this country as the left ? As marxism, as socialism ?
Will the wall bring this country to its knees ?
Will getting the US out of pointless mideast wars ?
Will standing up to China ?
Will Trumps forceful trade negotiations ?
Will Trump’s deregulation ?
I am not asking whether you agree with all Trump’s policies – I do not.
But which of these will do a tiny fraction of the harm of socialism.
Trump braggs constantly about what he has accomplished – and he has not done nearly as well as he claims. He is not near as good economically as Clinton or Reagan. But he is much better than either Bush or Obama.
Regardless he is no existential threat.
Yet you rant as if he is.
If Biden is merely a return to Obama – that would be much worse than Trump.
If Biden does half of what he says – that would be disasterous.
“So, right back at ya, In my universe, you are your right wing nut friends are destroying America, as a last gasp before history’s garbage can receives you.”
How So ? We know from history the end results of socialism and marxism.
How are those on the right “destroying america” ?
Pick Trump, Pick Carlson, Pick Limbaugh …?
What is it that they are doing or arguing should be done, what policies are they selling that would “destroy america”.
I am not aware of a single person on the right that is seeking to end gay marraige, return to the racism of the 60’s or otherwise return wholesale to the 60’s.
But even if they did advocate for that – while a bad choice it still would not “destroy america”.
Socialism destroys whatever it touches, marxism even more so.
I will be happy to debate issues with you – but you are never going to do so – because the absolute worst that anyone of even the smallest consequence on the right is advocating would not “destroy america” – but what the left is pushing is destroying america.
Just your approach of defaming those you disagree with is destroying america.
I tripped over this on RCP – and since you have called Hannity a venomous right wingnut,
I though I should actually listen to a bit of Hannity to assess your claim.
Here is Hannity interviewing Roger Stone and his lawyer after the commutation.
We can debate the merits of the facts presented – obviously this is only one side, though I do not recall anything said by Stone, or his lawyer or Hannity that is in error.
But how is it that any of these people come up as “Far Right” ?
Because they do not buy into the discredited “collision delusion” ?
Please Robby – you have told me that these are all evil right wingers – what is wrong with this interview ?
I do not like Hannity and Stone – but there is nothing said in this that sounds unreasonable.
I can not tell if it is all accurate – you need to hear both sides to be more certain of that.
But it is certainly not hateful poisonous venom as you claim.
Regardless there are several claims that Stone makes that are indisputable.
Stone was perscribed by Judge Jackson from presenting his defense.
He was precluded from offering expert witness to demonstrate that the Wikileaks emails were the result of a leak not a hack.
While Stone can easily be found innocent regardless, there is no possibility at all that Stone can be quitly of anything if the emails were leaked. In fact the entire russia collusion nonsense explodes in the lefts face.
Leaking from a private entity like the DNC is a firing offense, it is not a crime. It is possible that the leaker might be subject to civil damages – but those would be civil and limited to the leaker.
As we now know from the House Testimony that has been declassified – CrowdStrike testified that while the DNC was hacked (twice) they could not state that the Hack was by the Russians, or that the DNC emails were transfered by the hackers. VIPS – a groupd of former NSA cyber forensic experts have published and were prepared to testify as expert witness that the DNC emails were more probably leaked to wikileaks than hacked.
While the collision delusion went down the tubes long ago, That would obliterate even the remote possibility of truth.
If the DNC emails were leaked – the entire farce of Stones failed contacts with Asange become irrelevant. You can not conspire before or after the fact to commit a non-crime.
So why was Stone prohibited from putting on that defense ?
Is that reasonable ?
Who cares whether the Defendant is Angela Davis or Roger Stone – doesn’t justice require allowing the defendant to make the arguments that demonstrate their innocence ?
You can claim that Stone may not be able to prove that the DNC emails came from a leak.
That is correct, just as it is not possible to prove they were hacked. So why is the prosecutor allowed to claim something that is not provable, but the defendant not allowed to challenge it ?
As Stone also notes – while there are serious questions about Judge Sulivan – Flynn who plead guilty was nonetheless provided with more opportunity to challenge the prosecution than Stone was. And Stone proceed to trial with the presumption of innocence.
All of the information that Sydney Powell ultimately got from DOJ regarding Flynn should have similarly been provided to Flynn and his attorney’s – and yet Jackson barred it.
That is improper. A defendant and his lawyers are always entitled to any exculpatory information from the prosecutor. Judge Jackson thwarted that.
Shouldn’t we give Stone a fair trial before we hang him ?
“You are a hypocrite. who spews hate.”
Oh, we are all hypocrites when seen by our adversaries, and anyone who is anyone and stands for anything hates something.
So yeah, I hate the loony right. Cry me a river, loon.
You will solemnly tell me that you are Not a hypocrite and that you hate nothing and no one. Bzzzt. Wrong. You bow to no one in the hypocrite department (given your COVID herd immunity and non susceptibility statements and theories you ought to be going around maskless and trying your best to expose yourself to COVID for the public and your own good. But you are not doing what you recommend the nation do as the national laissez-faire best answer to COVID asare you, hypocrite). You also bow to no one in the hate spewing department, your blanket hatred and rage against anyone or anything one nanometer left of center has consumed literally millions of words here and endless numbers are yet to spew from you.
No, I am not going to “prove” this to you. I can’t. I can prove nothing to you. Not because its not true but because you are not intellectually or morally honest and I could not prove to you that you breath oxygen and exhale CO2 if you found an ideological angle to disbelieve it.
How bout this dave, you are a delusional dishonest denialist phony internet lawyer for the world of right-wing jackasses and you spew nonsense by the metric shit load, making everyone beyond weary of your windy cool-aid baths.
Ah, the miracle of the internet, we can all find some jackass to be sick to death of here.
Your turn, spew away.
Again read Barri Weis, she does a far better job of showing what is wrong with you and those like you than I can.
I doubt you will. You are not interested in any view beyond your own.
Regardless, Is Weis – the former staff editor of the editorial page of the NYT some far right wing extremist ? Is she a racist ? Homophobe ?
And how are you different from the army of lunatics at NYT that made it impossible to restore the NYT editorial page to the forum for the best expression of the diverse oppinions of the world, from its state as the leftist propoganda organ.
You keep attacking nameless left wing nuts – but you do not make actual arguments.
You do not ever address actual issues. Anyone who disagree’s with you is an extreme right winger, and a racist and a homophobe, and a hateful, hating hater – and therefore you have no need to read what they actually say – or address any argument or position they hold.
https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter
“You will solemnly tell me that you are Not a hypocrite and that you hate nothing and no one. ”
Hypocracy is the unforgivable sin.
“given your COVID herd immunity”
Herd immunity is epidemiology 101. Any “expert” that is scoffing at it, does not deserve their degrees.
There is no “hypocrisy” here – I am not sure how their could be. It is basic science known to work.
“non susceptibility statements and theories”
You should hope I am right – I think there is alot of evidence to support that – 100% of people do not get the flu or colds – even where there are no vaccinations. We know empirically that nearly all diseases have some large portion of people who are naturally immune of highly resistant – even if we do not know why.
Further we are now seeing data to support that. We are finding people who have not had C19 but have T Cells that indicate atleast some degree of resistance to it.
Regardless, this is a claim that can be argued and tested with facts logic, reason.
You disagree with my claim – fine – make your case and I will make mine.
But that is not what you do. You attack it as some right wing propoganda – despite the fact that the data is coming mostly from europe. Or you otherwise defame my argument or me.
You do not respond with a counter argument.
I hope I am right – you should hope I am right – hundreds of thousands of lives will be lost if I am wrong. Regardless I welcome you actual criticism – rather than your childish rants and defamation. It there are weaknesses in my C19 arguments – lets identify them. If any of those arguments are wrong – lets determine that.
You seem completely uninterested in establishing the truth about C19 – to you the truth about C19 is whatever the specificc expert you decided to beleive said – because it “felt right” to you. You claim to be about science, – but you are only interested in SOME expert views.
You will even reject your own experts – when they change their mind.
“you ought to be going around maskless and trying your best to expose yourself to COVID for the public and your own good.”
Nope, those people who are least vulnerable should do so.
Herd immunity is reached at approximately 80% immunity – the actual percent may be higher or lower. That means approximately 20% of the population that IS susceptable will not get infected.
Absent a vaccine or a cure, Herd immunity is the only way we beat a virus like C19.
If you have evidence that there is another way – we would all love to hear it.
Regardless, It that 20% of the population that ends up being protected by “the herd” is mostly young people – that means that we will have sacrificed the vulnerable for the sake of the healthy.
It you want “the greatest good” outcome – your goal should be to get the most vulnerable into that 20%, and accept that everyone else must either get C19 or be naturally immune.
None of this is political. It is basic science and math – and regardless of whether you hear is much – it is epidemeology 101. It is not heterodox.
Social Distancing and flattening the curve are actually the heterodox ideas. And we know that they do not reduce total infections – they just delay them.
“But you are not doing what you recommend the nation do as the national laissez-faire best answer to COVID asare you, hypocrite).”
This is not a Laissez-fair arguement. In fact YOUR position is more laissez-faire than mine.
Abesent a vaccine or a cure C19 does not go away until herd immunity is acheived.
YOUR approach is to force everyone to protect themselves – draw this out as long as possible, and let random chance, survivial of the fittest or survivial of the most germophobic determine who lives and who dies.
That is the result of your approach – as I have noted before – even if masks are 97% effective, if C19 is arround long enough you will still get it. We know that Doctors and nurses will get C19 even wearing the best PPE if they work with C19 patients long enough.
Masks do not prevent infection they delay it. The goal should be to delay infection ONLY for the vulnerable. Otherwise it is YOU who are engaged in the Darwinian laissez-faire contest.
“You also bow to no one in the hate spewing department, your blanket hatred and rage against anyone or anything one nanometer left of center has consumed literally millions of words here and endless numbers are yet to spew from you.”
Again – how so ? I have criticised Biden – I do not hate him.
Your conduct is immoral – I do not hate you.
Marxism is self evidently murderous – I am not sure whether you characterize that as hate or not, and I am not sure I care. I am OK with being accused of hating a vile and murderous ideology.
I have characterized the left as hateful hating haters – because they are – it is self evident.
The hate the right – purportedly because of racism, homophobia, … claims that might be partly true of a small number of individuals – but are certainly false as blanket statements.
The right conversely does not hate the left – though the left is rapidly teaching them to.
There are more words in the bible than I have written here – is that blanket hatred and rage ? Why do you equate volume with anything but volume ?
“No, I am not going to “prove” this to you. I can’t.”
That is correct – because it is not true.
Regardless if you make a moral accusation, you are OBLIGATED to prove it.
There is no free ride for defamation. Even our law recognizes defamation as a tort.
You are not permitted to slander, libel or defame others without consequence.
The only defense for defamation is truth – and the burden legal and otherwise is on you.
This is a necessity for society. If we can lie constantly about the character of those we disagree with – we can not have society. It is not possible. That is what we are seeing today.
And the root – which you fail to grasp is on the left. This argument by defamation started on the left some time ago. You loath Trump – not because of his policies – but because he is doing to you what you have done to those you disagree with for decades. Because he is using your tools against you – very effectively.
“I can prove nothing to you.”
Because there is nothing to prove, and because you are unable to make a legitimate argument.
Actual arguments from you are incredibly rare.
Ron and I actually debate Trade, Imigration, Healthcare – we rarely persuade each other but we have a respectful factual debate.
That pretty much never happens with you. You lob assertions – the majority of which are that you opponents are hateful, hating haters. That is it. You have nothing but defamation to offer.
You listed a bunch of people purportedly on the “far right”. You further claim they are venemous and hateful. Thus far you have a single somewhat offensive anonymously made remark by a Fox writer who is not in your list of far right venomous wing nuts.
Plus some kind of guilt by association – Carlson must be evil because he called those who went after Neff ghouls. Frankly carlson is right – what kind of people – rather than criticising the show on its merits go running arround the web trying to find what some non-public person affiliated with the show said under a pseudonym ? Carlson is right, “Thar be left wing nut ghouls”.
Confront the show head on.
Do you think it is not possible to find some stupid thing that writers for Tapper or Cooper or Biden have said psuedonimously in the past ?
The CEO of Boeing just resigned for remarks about women in combat that were mainstream at the time that he made 40 years ago.
And yet there is lots of things that Biden Clinton, Obama, Sanders have said in the past that is down right offensive.
Sanders used to write rape porn. But that was several decades ago – so we give that a pass.
But not the CEO of boeing. He is not on the left – he is culpable for life.
I do not care about the racist things Joe Biden said 40 years ago – he was a strong proponent of segregated schools. But I do care about the stupid things he says today – even if they are about the past.
That is the left for you.
“Not because its not true”
If it is true you should have no problem demonstrating that.
If not to me – to everyone else – including yourself.
But you have not even proven your own allegations to yourself.
“but because you are not intellectually or morally honest”
Again more defamation – without any proof.
“and I could not prove to you that you breath oxygen and exhale CO2 if you found an ideological angle to disbelieve it.”
Right. So you concoct a hypothetical, assume a stupid postion on my part, assume my motivation for that stupid position and then conclude you have proven your case ?
“How bout this dave, you are a delusional dishonest denialist phony internet lawyer for the world of right-wing jackasses and you spew nonsense by the metric shit load, making everyone beyond weary of your windy cool-aid baths.”
Again long list of defamation – no facts.
You still have not been able to identify what constitutres the extreme right wing ?
What are those extreme right positions ?
You do not wish to address issues – not any issues
You are happy to insult my positions on C19 – but you will not actually argue them – because most are epidemiology 101.
I do not agree with Trump on everything – but his positions are not “extreme far right”.
I do not agree with Carlson on everything – but his positions are not extreme far right – as I noted, he and Yang have alot of common ground. He has also had Tulsi Gabbard on repeated and treated her favorably as a guest.
I can’t say much about Hannity – I rarely see him. I have no idea what most of his positions are – and I would bet you know even less about Hanities positions.
Yet according to you he is a far right wingnut – because …. ? You do not know.
My point is not that Hannity is some hero – what little I know of him rubs me the wrong way.
But I am not calling him and extreme right wingnut just because I find his style off putting.
I know little of Ingram of Limbaugh. But I doubt based on their positions on issues – which I do not know – and I would bet heavily that you do not either – that they are not extreme right wingnuts.
I do know that Limbaugh has 30M daily listeners on his radio show. That is 1/10 the country – most every day. That is more than NPR.
You think fully 1/10th of the country is “extreme right wing nuts” ?
You understand that limbaugh listeners alone get Trump almost half way to winning the election ?
Here you are – those extreme right wing ideological germans found no evidence that Covid spreads in schools.
“Schools do not play a major role in spreading the coronavirus, according to the results of a German study released on Monday.
The study, the largest carried out on schoolchildren and teachers in Germany, found traces of the virus in fewer than 1 per cent of teachers and children.
Scientists from Dresden Technical University said they believe children may act as a “brake” on chains of infection.”
https://news.yahoo.com/german-study-finds-no-evidence-164704005.html
Maybe the germans are wrong. But shouldn’t we have atleast discussed this before ranting that we are murdering people by sending kids to school ?
Why is this only being covered by UK media ?
A white woman is murdered for saying “all lives matter” – and we here ZIPPO from the news ?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12102626/mom-jessica-doty-whitaker-shot-dead-black-lives-matter-argument/
COVID is NOT going away. Yes there has been an ongoing ratcheting down of the death rate because we Were doing some things that were effective and medical science found some ways to improve treatment. Then, the people living in a world of delusion and denial got the upper hand. Its clear as can be: The cases have now dramatically increased and the death toll has begun to follow that and reversed its decline. Yes this in on trump and his universe. I can forgive the first month of his response but after that his leadership has been unforgivable and disastrous. His Tulsa and Rushmore rallies are the clearest examples of his leadership in 180 degrees the wrong direction, although they are just the tip of the iceberg. This next phase of deaths is on trump, on the GOP, on DeVos, and on the GOP voters who he is playing his BS to.
Any sane person would wish that COVID was going away and the economy was on its way back. But that is delusional wishful thinking, not leadership, not the basis for rational policy.
Apparently DeVos outdid herself Sunday with claims that there is no evidence that there will be any harm in opening schools. When the bodies of teachers, school workers, and children start to pile up, what will she say? Sorry about that, I did not know, nobody told me? It won’t fly. She is doing a trump and it will cost many lives. Fucking irresponsible lunacy from the universe of conservative delusions.
History will remember these people. Actually, the present will remember these people.
Roby, yes some of the increase can be traced to govt actions if you expect govt to act. But this is a country that has the tenth amendment! This country is like the European union. We are 50 states with 50 governors and they have to do for their states what they believe is proper. I never want to live in a country that the leader is willing to basically take control through actions comparable to martial law and have dictatorial powers.
But when you have young millionaire players showing up for NBA,MLB or other sport training camp, they refused to social separate/ wear mask, and they are covid positive, how do you control 330 million Americans with 50% under 45 who say “screw it”. Russell Westbrook just tested positive, James Harden is now quarenteening because he was working out with Westbrook. They are team mates others depend on. They make millions.
N.C. governor orders everyone to wear mask. But no fines. Most under 35 refuse to wear them. Cases increasing in N.C. with gyms and bars still closed, resturants limited, phase 2 delayed. Could Trump make it different? Or would there be massive demonstrations if a have mask “martial law” was in effect? Do you jail those not wearing them? If there are fines and people dont pay, jail time?
And then how do you address the black and hispanics that represent a huge percentage of cases and they refuse social distincing/ facemask? In my county, 65% positive are hispanic or black. I go to lowes and even with lowes making them put them in when entering, once in the store they have the mask hangin on their chins. Can Trump fix that?
Now can Trump fix the testing delays. NBA, PGA, NASCAR, MLB gets players in the morning, NASCAR and others test hundreds in one jorning, get results in a hour and negative pkay, positive go home. Why is it taking days for citizens to get results. I supect CDC/FDA red tape that Trump might not ge able to solve with E.O..
“Roby, yes some of the increase can be traced to govt actions”
Aside from sending infected people to nursing homes – what government policies have you seen that have had any effect – good or bad, and what is your evidence ?
I see no evidence that any government action has been beneficial or harmful to C19.
Many have been economically harmful.
If you are under 45 the mortality rate and the seriousness of the illness is the same as the Flu. You are ranting about people under 45 – but the fact is their behavior is rational.
Ron – whether the government or the left likes it or no the economy is reopening.
And people are returning to normal behavior. That process will not be instant, and younger people will move faster than older ones – and that is how it should be,.
Laws that are not enforced are meaningless. But enforcing mask laws will result in strong pushback.
People are tired of this. Many grasp that the lockdowns did not work
You can only control people by fear for so long.
With each week more people will “break the rules”.
This was all a bad idea from the start.
It did not work.
Sweden BTW appears to have peaked in Mid June and is now dropping.
Sweden is the size of California geographically. Ir is 1/2 the size of Florida in population.
You can not compare how one small country controls 10 million people. Compare Sweden, 10M to N.C., about 10M. Sweden 76,000 cases and 5500 deaths to date to North Carolina, 89,000 cases and 1,500 cases.Both handled the issue much different.
However, one main difference. Swedens death rate can be traced by some studies to not admitting patients into an ICU until much later in rhe disease progression. Sweden was much move active in determinung who lived or died.
And if our doofus governor would protect nursing homes, our deaths would be less rhan 1,500.
What I pointed out was that – without any government actions C19 in Sweden is ending.
On only that basis – I can compare sweden to any country in the world.
Absolutely a wide variety of factors – demographics, latitiude, will cause differences in the amount of time it takes for C19 to run its course.
But C19 has near run its course in Sweden – that also appears to be the case in about 1/2 the US. Including many blue states where C19 has been disasterous.
C19 will ultimately run its course in each state in the country, and each country in the world.
Sweden has made a few mistakes – I am not arguing that. They failed to deal with nursing homes early on, with the same bad consequences as NY.
They may have made a few other mistakes as you say.
But they have mostly focused on the vulnerable and left the rest free to follow recomendation – or not. And their outcome is better than Belgium, the UK, Spain and Italy.
And they are pretty close to the end right now.
California can not say that. CA has returned to lockdown, and as a result it will take months for C19 to burn out in CA.
“COVID is NOT going away. Yes there has been an ongoing ratcheting down of the death rate because we Were doing some things that were effective and medical science found some ways to improve treatment.”
We are ? What would that be ? HCQ has not been widely used anywhere. Remedsivir is used even more rarely. Steriods have only recently been approved and are not widely used.
Get a clue – the death rate is declining because we are discovering the infection rate is/was higher that we thought.
The total deaths per day are declining – because in many places we are approaching herd immunity.
We are closest in those blue places that got hit hardest first and where C19 spread fast BEFORE the lockdown. And where population densities are highest.
Places with lower population density or where it took longer for C19 to spread to are taking longer. We are seeing higher infection rates their – because we are testing 6 times as many people. C19 will start to burn out in those soon enough too.
We have seen variations of this accross the world – there is no 2nd wave in Italy as an example.
“Then, the people living in a world of delusion and denial got the upper hand.”
No one is living in denial. There is no cure. There is no vaccine, approximately 80% of the people who Can get C19 Will get C19 before it is done.
The only open question is what portion of the population is naturally immune or resistant.
“Its clear as can be: The cases have now dramatically increased and the death toll has begun to follow that and reversed its decline.”
No this is not clear. The increase in the number of infections is because of increased testing.
The average age is way down and nearly all are asymptomatic, These are people we would not have tested 2 months ago. There is a small increase in hospitalizations and a small increase in deaths – primarily in areas of less dense population that this is now spreading to, and partly as a result of opening up. There is nothing we are seeing that can not be explained by the end of lockdowns and much higher rates of testing.
If you wish to beleive there is a massive 2nd wave in the US – why has that not happened anywhere else in the world ? The US will be a bit more complex than the rest of the world – we are more like 50 countries. But within each state the curve strongly resembles that of similarly situated countries in the world.
“Yes this in on trump and his universe.”
Because what ? Because in no country anywhere has any government policy to combat C19 ever worked ?
“I can forgive the first month of his response but after that his leadership has been unforgivable and disastrous. His Tulsa and Rushmore rallies are the clearest examples of his leadership in 180 degrees the wrong direction, although they are just the tip of the iceberg.”
Oklahoma has had a 6% increase in deaths – 25 total in the last 7 days. CA has had 703.
South Dakota has had 7 new deaths in the last 7 days.
Trump has not had a rally in CA, NJ, Illinois – which are all Blue states with the highest numbers of new deaths.
“This next phase of deaths is on trump, on the GOP, on DeVos, and on the GOP voters who he is playing his BS to.”
Because what – the death rate for school age children is 1/11th that of the Flu ?
So we should not send kids back to school because they might get something that most will not know they have – kids under 10 do not appear to have symptoms and do not appear to be able to spread this, and kids under 20 have mild symptoms and do not easily spread this.
“Any sane person would wish that COVID was going away and the economy was on its way back. But that is delusional wishful thinking, not leadership, not the basis for rational policy.”
Rational policy is simple – there is nothing we can actually do beyond protecting the most vulenerable. So we should not make stupid pretend efforts to do things that do not work to feel good.
The flattening the curve serves only one purpose – protecting the medical system.
There is no place in this country in which the medical system was even close to overrun.
Wide policy is to avoid stretching this out – get it over as quickly as possible.
“Apparently DeVos outdid herself Sunday with claims that there is no evidence that there will be any harm in opening schools. ”
Because there is no such evidence.
“Then the bodies of teachers, school workers, and children start to pile up,”
The death rate for people under 9 is 1/11th of the Flu – do we close schools for the flu ?
The death rate for people under 45 is the same as the Flu – do we close schools for the flu ?
“what will she say?”
Nothing – there will be no need to say anything. The effects of C19 by age are incredibly well known by now – except by you.
“Sorry about that, I did not know, nobody told me? It won’t fly.”
She knows exactly what she is doing – and she is correct.
“She is doing a trump and it will cost many lives.”
Whose ? We already know the death rate among students (1/11th the flu) and teachers(same as the flu) are you saying that because there will be flu next year we must close schools ?
” Fucking irresponsible lunacy” – that would be from the lockdown loons.
We tried things your way. It did not work. It destroyed the economy, resulting in rioting and destruction and it had no consequential effect.
We are done. This is not Trump and DeVos forcing this. The Secretary of education controls a tiny amount of money to states. School Districts will ultimately be free to do as they please.
If idiots in blue states wish to screw students over for another year, no one can stop you.
But most of the country is tired of this shit.
The country is not opening up – because Trump is demanding it. Because red state governors or ordering it. The country is opening up because people are slowing choosing to ignore the garbage you are selling.
“History will remember these people. Actually, the present will remember these people.”
It will – and it will be horribly unfavorable to the lockdown loons.
We tried something that has never been tried before. It did not work, It is time to return to normal.
Hard to believe this is still an issue today. Can not stop wondering if this is governments way of transferring healthcare dollars to younger people with a longer life expectancy.
https://www.wral.com/coronavirus/nc-still-lacks-plan-for-regular-mass-testing-in-nursing-homes/19186398/?fbclid=IwAR0mu_GsuW6_-i0XJptwnvSGM4VQOGQCbHfOMCOqdf6hOLxHXJUeZ0FdKSc
I cannot even find the top of the thread that mentioned the Bari Weiss letter. So I will post here.
Bari Weiss wrote an excellent letter. It hit its target. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I find its accusations believable, which is not to say that I have seen them examined and point by point proven or disproven. If her colleagues who attacked her on twitter and elsewhere can be identified and their words verified they should face judgement, much as Neff faced judgement. If they said truly despicable things I won’t cry for them or make excuses for them. I won’t bend myself into a moral pretzel trying to make their offenses seem merely human.
Which is to say I won’t pull a Dave.
Dave, you loathe, hate, despise, and excoriate the loony left, but according to you there is no non-loony left, its all loony and we lefties are all just short of Pol pot. You have actually said that. I can count on you to repeat it too. As to the right-wing loonies, its the denial routine, you defend them at every chance, they hardly exist, and whatever they do there is some excuse or deflection.
So, your views on left and right are so completely unbalanced that they are worthless, other than as a joke. You are a blind fanatic with TNM as a limitless canvass to preach from.
Carry on.
Clearly you are clueless.
Barri was attacking YOU – and all the other clueless morons who reject anything outside their ideology. Who are unwilling to examine the evidence and arguments of those who disagree with them.
Barri was attacking those – like YOU, who use defamation and character assassination as their form of argument.
I am glad you agree with her – no go punish yourself as you demand that her persecutors be punished.
No this is NOT like Neff. Neff was not silencing anyone. The only action Neff suggested was not getting Lasik from an Asian, As I have argued – and Milton Friedman argued decades ago, that form of prejudice is SELF PUNISHING.
If you do not get Lasik from the asian doctor – because they are asian – without regard for their skills – you are depriving yourself of potentially the best service – i.e. YOU will be the loser. The doctor will get another patient who will benefit from their care.
Jim Crow laws in the south were created specifically because racial predjudice in commerce harms the racist – it is a self punishing act.
Jim Crow laws were passed because as adam smith noted – in comerce people act in their own self interest. It is not in your interests to exclude half your customers or half your potential employees.
Most businesses in the reconstruction south refused to discriminate on the basis of race so Jim Crow laws was passed to FORCE discrimination.
Regardless, Neff was not censoring anyone. He was not even defaming anyone.
What Barri was calling out was SILENCING dissent – censorship – within journalism, the place where that is most dangerous.
What Barri was calling out – was DEFAMATION – bitter personal attacks.
Neff said he would not get Lasik from an asian.
He did not actually defame asians generally. But more important he made no defamatory allegations agains specifit people
You do that all that time.
Those attacking Barri did that all the time.
Neff has no similarity to this – but YOU do.
Your conduct is exactly like her persecutors.
The only relevant difference is that you have no power.
Rick is thus far not swayed to ban people because others defame them.
After reading the last few day of comments, TNM is no better than The moderate Voice or other sites where the comments are personal attacks and shitfests if your positions differ from the author.
I would be happy to see discussion return to substance.
I am attacking those who engage in unsubstantiated defamation.
My personal attacks are specifically FOR making false or unproven moral allegations about others.
I think it is reasonable to expect that if you call another person a racist, a liar or other wise defame them – that you should at the very least have to make a minum case that your defamation is true.
And I believe that being overwhelmed with comments in emails, or just in Word Press that is impossible to follow, that are mostly personal in nature and offer nothing to the general readers is why we are down to 3 regulars and one part time individuals commenting.
When I found this site, we had at !east 10 regulars commenting, but everytime someone makes a personal observation, instead of one comment asking for proof, we get overwhelmed with personal comments that drive others away.
If I say something and get 15 responses, I can ignore them. Others just say I am not going to put up with this and leave.
But it would be refreshing if you could find a way for individuals commenting at your site to backoff from personal issues ,name calling and so many responses so they stay active and dont leave.
You are free to do what you want, they are free to do what they want and I am free to offer my observation as to why you have few commentIng anymore at TNM. More individuals result in more diverse positions. Sometimes those are based on facts and sometimes on beliefs. And many times, beliefs become facts.
Trump did not start the name calling on TNM – nor did I.
I have asserted for some time that the left is a destructive force. That it personalizes all differences and that it transforms disagreement on opinions and facts into accusations of moral failure.
We had several years of the relentless Jay attacks on Trump – fine. Trump is fair game.
But just as you can attack him there is nothing wrong with defending him when he is right.
No one here thinks he is always right.
But the attacks on Trump morphed quickly into personal attacks on anyone who was not attacking trump.
These past 4 years have seen the most vile and despicable politics in my lifetime.
The Trump russia nonsense is the single most despicable political dirty trick in US history.
Worse it was not two politicians jousting, the awesome power of the federal government was used for political purposes. Nixon had nothing on Obama – and I am ticked.
I do not have much tolerance today for the moral preening of those who have been calling the rest of us trumpanzees for 3 years. I do not have much tolerance now that they have shifted to calling us all racists – or racist adjacent.
I would regret the departure of Robby or Jay – if they ever had anything to offer.
I do not care what their political view was – so long as they argued the issues.
Robby is the person here with purportedly the strongest background in Biology.
Yet he offers nothing on Covid but panic and personal subordination to the most terified expert of the moment. Meanwhile excoriating me as Some right wing lunatic fringe covid racist – because my sources are epidimiologists from Europe who are not drowning in panic.
The entire country is going bat$h!t crazy over schools at a time when we know that we have a disease that is something like 11 times less severe for kids, and generally no worse than the flu for those under 45.
Absolutely there are people we should be protecting. But they are not school students.
But say those things out loud – and you are labeled as a right wing nut a murderer.
If you do not want things to get personal – do not engage in personal attacks.
I have criticised you. You have criticized me – but I do not recall it ever getting personal.
You actually argue your positions. I respect that – whether i agree or not.
Finally – I can not stop you from beleiving what you want – but TNM has not fizzled because of me.
You can find plenty of Robby’s and their ideological mirrors on other blogs as well as other more rational actors. As well as myself.
My guess is TNM is fizzling because moderation is fizzling.
I did not accept that we were more polarized than ever.
I will give you another reason Trump had better win in Nov.
Because if the vicious hate spewing from the left, if the substitution of person attack for argument can actually prevail – Biden is the least of our worries.
Aside from the fact that he relishes the public conflict, on policy – Trump is barely to the right of center. And yet he has been the most bitterly attacked president in US history.
Nor is this about Trump. The ideology police are coming for the rest of us next.
Biden is not going to stop that.
If Biden wins the lesson the left will have learned is that they did not bring enough bitterness and hate to the 2016 election.
This election is not about Biden. It is not about Trump, it is not about the economy, it is not about C19, it is not about the supreme court.
It is about whether the left can bully their way to victory.
And that is why I think the polls are wrong.
You really do not get it.
Can you read ?
It is not specifically that they “said despicable things”.
It is that the defamed her for the purposes of silencing her.
It is that just like you – they were incapable of arguing their opinions, and instead fixated on silencing others.
Neff’s sins are venial in comparison.
“Dave, you loathe, hate, despise, and excoriate the loony left, but according to you there is no non-loony left, its all loony and we lefties are all just short of Pol pot. You have actually said that. I can count on you to repeat it too.”
Why is the left more homogenous ? Because you have no principles.
You say you or Biden are not part of the looney left ?
Why ? You engage in the same defamatory conduct. You have no interest in facts. You do not make arguments only appeals to emotion.
The only differences between what you call the not so looney left and the looney left is preferences – not principles, arguably not even values.
What difference does it make if we slog towards socialism slowly or rapidly ?
Maybe a few years ago it would be possible to say that there was some moderate left.
But those like you have just evicted Barrie Weis from New York Times – that was the moderate left – and it is gone from the so called paper of record.
I have no idea if you personally are terrified that your peers will turn on you as they have Weis – though I can assure you that eventually they will. You are part of a self destructive ideology. But much of what you claim is the “moderate” left is terrified that they will be the next Barri Weis.
Amy Cooper – no far right extremist, made the mistake of walking her dog off a leash in Central Park – and now her life has been destroyed. While she is far from a perfect person – if she is a racist – 90% of the country is.
How many women are now affraid to ask for help – if they are alone in the park with a threatening man – especially if he is black ?
Regardless, my point is – if you are actually not on the looney left – it does not matter much – they own you.
I tend to resist reading other peoples minds so just consider this a hypothetical.
Today if you are on the left – and not the looney left – you too must be afraid of being called a racist, hateful, hating hater – should you slip up and say “all lives matter” or “Blue lives matter” or the greatest sin of all “Black Lives do not matter to BLM”.
JK Rawlings – not some right wing nut made the mistake of sticking up for the victims of rape, and abuse and eleoquently noted that you can support transgender and still not accept transitioning toddlers. Today she is excoriated as much as Rush Limbaugh – probably more.
As has been most every person who has stood up for her.
So where were you ?
Robby, I think you are terrified of having an actual argument – using facts, logic, reason.
God forbid you should have to face a conclusion that would place you at odds with “the looney left”. Someone might call you a racist.
“As to the right-wing loonies, its the denial routine, you defend them at every chance,”
So far you have not demonstrated that a single far right extremist exists.
I do not doubt there are a few – Richard Spensor – if you accept that there can be a right wing socialist. But you have not made that case.
Why is Tucker Carlson a right wing loon – what are the values or principles that he pushes that do not have large often super majority support ?
I really do not know much of Hannity or Ingram, or Limbaugh’s positions – but you have not proven that any of them are right wing loons – but you have accused them of that and worse.
I am not especially fixated on the people – it matters little to me if you can paint one of these or some other as actually part of the lunatic fringe.
My actual point is that all purportedly right wing extremist positions are pretty mainstream.
That does not inherently make them correct – Trump as an example is wrong on trade.
But it does mean they are not extremist, in many instances they are not even right.
We know what the extreme left is, and we know how the left scales down to “moderate”.
The far left today is made of cultural marxists, and post modernists – which are essentially the same.
I will accept that much of the left has little idea what those terms mean. That does not alter the fact that ideas do have power, and that these ideas are the driving force on the left today.
Your own arguments rest on post-modern foundations – even if you are ignorant of what those are.
There are two competing – and sometimes complimentary ideas on the right.
The first is conservatism. The principle that we should peruse change slowly that even broken institutions are still likely superior to rushed replacements. The other major idea of the right is libertarian – limited government, the importance of individual rights.
Absolutely there is breadth to the right and inklings of other ideas – such as those of neocons – though neocons orriginated on the left. migrated to the right and seem to have returned to the left with the advent of Trump. Regardless, there are still some neocon’s on the right.
They are dangerous – but not 1/10 so dangerous as those on the left.
I would also note that the “collusion delusion” is fundimentally neocon at its origens – as well as the efforts to impeach Trump.
“they hardly exist, and whatever they do there is some excuse or deflection.”
You would have to find them for me to excuse them of deflect.
You have listed a bunch of people who are purportedly far right extremists.
WHY ?
Is Limbaugh on the looney right because “magic” ?
If there is some significan and dangerous far right – you should be able to tell us what defines the far right – and be able to prove those you claim are on the far right actually are based on the values and principles and policies they advocate for.
“So, your views on left and right are so completely unbalanced”
That is right – the political spectrum is “unbalanced” right now – that is part of why we have such great chaos. What you call “the looney far right” is the values shared by anythign from very large minorties to super majorities of americans.
I do not agree with some of the majority views of americans today.
But my disagreement does not make those values “looney far right”.
“You are a blind fanatic”
To what ? What have I argued that can not be defended empiracly – by facts and logic.
Are you saying that being logical, rational, accepting that there is gravity and the earth orbits the sun is blind fanaticism ?
You are back to defamation – but not only can’t you prove it, you have not even defined what it is.
If you were going to regulate speech which of the followinh would you find heinously offensive ?
‘FreeHongKong,’
‘Burn Jews’
‘KillCops’
No there is no problem with the sway the left has over speach in this country – ha.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/13/nba-bans-custom-jerseys-with-freehongkong-but-allows-burn-jews-and-kill-cops/
If you believe that the NBA allows burn jews and kill cops you are incredibly gullible. I looked it up they (the NBA store computer site, not the NBA) allow ANYTHING but have blocked Free Hong Cong. You could not only write Kill Jews you could also write kill Libtards or Burn Hillary. The meaning is that the people who programed the NBA store computer did not forsee people writing vile crap like Kill Hillary etc. You can write anything. Just not the hong cong, which is the actual part of the story that is newsworthy buried in the right wing BS. The NBA does NOT think its OK to write Kill Hillary, Kill Cops, Burn jews. Are you actually that stupid? Are people on the right actually that stupid. Its …. Fake News.
Your story about the woman who allegedly murdered for saying all lives matter was also pure BS for gullible idiots. Read the Whole story and you will see (and it is getting US coverage) if there is any working part of your brain left you will be able to tell fake news from reality. One BS after another for idiots.
Your IQ is shrinking to nothing.
Ironically, the NBA! is “the Left” is in your birdbrained story. And you, oh Constitutional scholar, should know that the NBA choosing what not to put on a jersey Is in fact an interesting story, but has nothing to do with Constitutionally protected free speech because there is no such thing as protected free speech outside of the issue of the Government not restricting it. Any company (or parent) can choose what to allow in their business, nothing unConstitutional about it.
You are hopeless. Rosanne Rosanna dana was a model of coherence compared to you. You get everything wrong and backwards. I’ll be as loony as you if I keep this conversation up. You win. Its all true, everything you say is true. The marxist NBA is going to come for you and cut out your tongue and seize your computer. Good night.
No, the NBA is just what happens when we back down from confronting angry mobs who wish to silence us.
Robby, I have been consistent – private entities like the NBA have the right to discriminate.
All of us have the right to make bad choices – you have the right to spray unsupported defamatory allegations against whoever you please.
And I am free to critcise, boycott or otherwise call you or the NBA out for your bad choices.
I have not called the government to step in – that is what YOU would do.
But I have called out the idiocy that YOUR values lead to.
The NBA issue has nothing to do with the constitution.
I have not made any claim otherwise.
It is still censorshop – and it is still stupid.
You argument that what the NBA is doing is not unconstitutional is excellent,
But no one has argued that what the NBA was doing was unconstitutional.
So you have made an excellent argument to counter an argument that no one made.
Are you saying that you think that the NBA allowing people to order customized jersey’s with BlackLivesMatter, and KillCops is OK but not FreeHongKong ?
Just hours ago you told us all that Neff was a racist and should be fired for saying under a pseudonym that he would not get lasik from an asian doctor.
No one has claimed that was an unconstitutional statement either.
Why must Fox Fire Neff – but I am not free to demand the NBA fire whoever is responsible for this nonsense ?
You use the word coherent – but you do not seem to know what it means.
How are your positions coherent ?
How are they not hypocritical ?
The NBA is not marxist – it is cowardly.
And it exemplifies were the left is driving us – 1984 newspeak.
Only approved words are allowed.
It does not matter whether that day arrives through government censorship – or that of the mob. Or both.
“If you believe that the NBA allows burn jews and kill cops you are incredibly gullible. I looked it up they (the NBA store computer site, not the NBA) allow ANYTHING but have blocked Free Hong Cong. You could not only write Kill Jews you could also write kill Libtards or Burn Hillary. The meaning is that the people who programed the NBA store computer did not forsee people writing vile crap like Kill Hillary etc. You can write anything. Just not the hong cong, which is the actual part of the story that is newsworthy buried in the right wing BS. The NBA does NOT think its OK to write Kill Hillary, Kill Cops, Burn jews. Are you actually that stupid? Are people on the right actually that stupid. Its …. Fake News.”
Talk about denialism!
You do know there is audio out there of a customer ordering a “Kill Cops” and “Fuck Police” Jersey but being told he could not order a “Free Hong Kong” Jersey ?
SUBSEQUENTLY, the NBA has apparently filtered those Jersey’s too.
Regardless, WHY can’t you order a FreeHongKong Jersey ?
I will bet you can order a BlackLivesMatter Jersey.
Why is “FreeHongKong” offensive to the NBA ?
You talk about evasion and denial and all those other magic words you like to bandy about.
Denial Robby, evasion Robby, rationalization Robby. defending the repugnant Robby.
Say it is not so Robby.
“Your story about the woman who allegedly murdered for saying all lives matter was also pure BS”
Not my story.
“Read the Whole story”
I did. She said all live matter, that resulted in a scuffle, that was broken up, and shortly after she was shot.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Jessica Doty Whitaker’s Facebook page has been flooded with hateful comments in the days since the 24-year-old mother was shot dead after she said: ‘All lives matter’ to a group of Black Lives Matter supporters in Indianapolis on July 5
Yes, it is now starting to make the news – the right of center news.
I have not seen NYT, Wapo, CNN, …. take it up.
“Your story about the woman who allegedly murdered for saying all lives matter was also pure BS”
I have read a fair amount of articles on this murder. It is not exactly clear why Jessica Whitaker was shot, but it does appear to have been a racial incident, although Whitaker may not have been the intended victim. Nevertheless, she was the victim, and her murder was basically an execution. It’s not BS.
I have a suspicion that we are not hearing the full story (surprise!). The murder happened at 3 in the morning, in what is known to be a dangerous area of Indianapolis. It has been reported that someone in her group used the “n” word, and that that’s what instigated the violence.
On the other hand, regardless of who said what, or who offended who, words are not violence and murder is not a solution. I would hope we all can agree that a cold-blooded killing is wrong, even if the victim said something offensive or incendiary. Not sure that everyone would agree these days, though.
I would not say “all lives matter” in a situation where I was confronted by members of BLM. It’s not the hill that I want to literally die on.
After a confrontation over All Live Matter,
A single shot was fired
The woman who said All Live Matter was struck and killed.
Absolutely this is not an open and shut case.
But there are not alot of plausible explanations.
This was not a stray bullet from a drive by.
The are two reasonable assumptions from a single shot.
The shooter hit what they intended.
The shooter realized after firing they had made a mistake.
It is possible that as this is investigated we will find that Thug A shot at Thug B and this woman ended up being hit.
It is not likely.
Thank you Priscilla. That was objective. The issue I see when I read this story is that both groups were armed to the teeth. The “killed because she said all lives matter” is much too neat a story that fits someones need to promote more of this cultural war and make a buck off it. If her family feels that way, I can understand them, they need to find some way to explain this tragedy. But outsiders and news outlets should get the facts first and then fan the fire after they are sure, or better yet not fan the fire.
If there are creeps making vile posts to her facebook and her family then I would love to see them exposed and jobless, like Neff. Unfortunately every high profile person or event attracts truly scummy cowardly people who make death threats and vile statements, right nuts and left nuts. If there are people who want to say that those creeps are the “left” or are BLM, I can’t stop them from thinking that and I am getting tired of trying.
Then there is the story about the NBA. Which has nothing whatsoever about the left shutting down speech and has everything to do with a computer web designer not foreseeing just how screwed up some people are.
I would hope that intelligent people would use some critical thinking before believing that the NBA is all for people saying Burn Jews.
This is an example of the ills of the right media, or some of it. Their ills are much like the ills of the left media, a slightly different tone and cultural flavor but the same basic thing, gullible and politically fanatical people will accept almost any story line that shows the other side as monsters.
I am almost ready to just give up on reasoning with people about things like this. Most people I meet do not show any outward signs of being consumed by such wretched propaganda. Perhaps many really are but just show no outward signs. I do not know. Two of my kids are prone to believing a uniformly terrible view of nearly all conservatives, nearly all republicans. They are not in what I would call the most extreme state of this idea, but their views of the other side are not balanced. I do talk with them and when they get over the initial shock that I don’t agree I can usually make them see a more balanced view. Parents ought to do this, steer the young away from unbalanced uncritical thinking.
I very, very carefully, and sincerely, DO NOT in my statements here call the right a monolithic group. I very, very carefully state over and over that there are many sane members of the right, call it the near right, who have perfectly rational opinions. My Governor is one such example of such a decent GOP politician.
I wish that the leaders of both sides would police their own extreme members. Unfortunately the leaders of parties need every vote and are afraid to speak out. And if they do, what happens, Look at Mitt Romney, that is what happens. I don’t mean to pick on the right with the Romney example, the Dem leaders provide very little in the way of criticism of their extremes, although I can find examples, they are far too few. I have actually said that with some considerable heat here at times.
Politics is a disgusting swamp. Parties are nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence and the founders seem not to have strongly planned on them. But parties sprang up immediately anyhow, see the election of 1800, there they were already in full vicious bloom. It seems that parties, factions, warring ideologies, are in our genes.
I half seriously believe that if a virus killed all the far righties then half of the far lefties would switch sides to continue the argument. And visa versa.
The sane man goes and plays his guitar, which is what I am about to go do. Its a beautiful day.
“The issue I see when I read this story is that both groups were armed to the teeth.”
Bunk. All of us come to the public sphere with fists. The presence of fists does not make us hit others.
The consequences of this story would be less if Jessica were beaten up – as people like Andy Ngo and other journalists covering Antifa have been.
But the significance would be no different – a violent response to free speech.
Regardless, neither Jessica nor any of here “group” shot anyone else.
You are free to possess a gun, a knife, your fists.
You are always responsible for what you do with them.
If you hit someone else with a 2 ton hurling hunk of metal – deliberately or accidentally – you are responsible. We do not blame cars for automobile deaths.
This “the guns are the issue” nonsense is standard fare to avoid holding PEOPLE responsible for their own actions.
The fact that Jessica was shot justifies the possession of firearms by those in here group – they clearly had reason to fear for their lives.
“The “killed because she said all lives matter” is much too neat a story that fits someones need to promote more of this cultural war and make a buck off it”
She was killed – either she was killed by accident, or she was killed deliberately.
No matter what the person who willed her is responsible.
It is possible under the specific circumstances that the shooter did not intend to kill Jessica – you are betting everything on that. The odds are slim that is the case.
And your claim that attributing the reporting to “making a buck” is ludicrous.
MSNBC, NYT – “make a buck” off their stories true – both the correct ones and the false naratives.
Regardless, Jessica was killed. Guns are fired almost always with the intention of seriously harming someone. That is true no matter who reports the shooting.
In this cases the odds are extremely high that Jessica was killled for saying “all lives matter”.
That is a narative – it is likely the correct narative. But it is not the narative you want to face up to.
If you are going to try to paint every young male schizophrenic mass shooter as a right wing nut, you are going to have to live with the fact that it is far more likely that Jessica was murdered for saying All Lives Matter.
Had she said Black Lives Matter – you would be screaming “see – Racism”.
When you are prepared to use the same standards for evaluating situations – then you will be credible. Otherwise you are just biased.
“If there are creeps making vile posts to her facebook and her family then I would love to see them exposed and jobless, like Neff.”
Just to be clear – it is OK with you to end up jobless as a result of your own actions – correct ?
So there is not an actual right to a job. Your employment by another person is contingent on their satisfaction with your work – correct ?
“I would hope that intelligent people would use some critical thinking before believing that the NBA is all for people saying Burn Jews.”
It is clear from reality that the NBA is NOT OK with people saying FreeHongKong.
It is clear that they care much more about that than saying “BurnJews”
I suspect – after it has been called to their attention – the NBA will bar “BurnJews”.
But they needed little chiding to bar “FreeHongKong”.
Further – “BurnJews” is pretty much the defintion of speech we actually expect private parties to censor – while “FreeHongKong” is pretty much the speech we expect they will NOT censor.
“I am almost ready to just give up on reasoning with people about things like this. ”
That might be wise – you are not very good at it.
You say you are careful not to identify a right monolithic group.
Yet you bemoan that a quite appropriate article addressing the NBA’s highly inconsistent standards on censorship as something from the “right wing press” – pretty much identifying a monolithic group to me.
Regardless – lets accept that the NBA can and should censor the speech they permit on jersey’s they sell, Lets assume the NBA has decided to do so – apparently in Robby world they are expected to censor nothing – until people complain, and then add filters one by one.
Aparantly starting with the innocuous to everyone by the Chinese Government “FreeHongKong” but ignoring messages about jews of killing or burning – which you would think would be close to the first things they censored.
You MIGHT be able to make a poor but plausible case that the NBA did not expect “BurnJews” and that the responded when they found out – presuming that they have actually responded – which a day after they had not.
While the NBA is free to do as they please. Censoring “FreeHongKong” seems to be exactly the kind of censorship we do not want.
Further it points out one of the big critiques of censorship – who decides.
Aparently defaming minorities get short shrift in NBA’s censorship – but countries like China get to impose THEIR political censorship on US sports.
That is a pretty bad failure to me. That is pretty strong evidence that censorship is just not going to work out the way you expect. That instead of thwarting hate speech it will be used to thwart speech challenging the powerful.
Whether there is a monolithic right media – they were CORRECT to call out the NBA.
The fact that you think there is a problem with that is disturbing.
“I very, very carefully, and sincerely, DO NOT in my statements here call the right a monolithic group. ”
Robby,
bull$h!t
You can not even identify the right by ideas. I have been asking for what distinguishes the far right from the moderate rate or the majority of americans for days.
You have not answered that.
You say you do not treat the right monolithically – of course you do – that is almost inherent in the fact that you can not identify purportedly right or far right positions.
The reason that Trump won in 2016, and likely will win in 2020 – is specifically because you, the media and the left lob grenades at the so called “far right” – but you can not explain what that is in any way that does not include the majority of ordinary americans.
The consequence is that these grenades blow up in your face – you get a voter backlash.
If everyone is a racist – no one is a racist.
If you can not clearly identify what you oppose so that it does NOT include 70% of americans but it DOES include your target – then you are going to lose. Further you are self evidently NOT engaged in critical thinking.
You have given us a list of people you think are on the far right – but no explanation of why.
So how is anyone who does not entirely disagree with those people know that you are not after them too ?
An important aspect of Alinsky’s rules is that you must always marginalize your opponent.
Marginalizing – requires more than SAYING – extreme fringe – it requires distinguishing them from the vast majority of the country.
You have failed at that – and the result is Trump.
“I very, very carefully, and sincerely, DO NOT in my statements here call the right a monolithic group. I very, very carefully state over and over that there are many sane members of the right, call it the near right, who have perfectly rational opinions. My Governor is one such example of such a decent GOP politician.”
That is not how I perceive you – and I doubt that is how many others do either.
That is little different from the “I am not a racist, I have black friends” argument.
Beyond that – mostly it seems you tolerate Republicans who do not make waves – those that accept their stature as the minority party and have not interest in having much voice in politics.
What is driving the democratic party right now ? Certainly not the moderates.
I do not honestly think Biden is a “socialist” – but is there anyone who doubts that a biden presidency will drift further to the left than Obama.
Biden just proposed his own “Green New Deal” – why are we discussing this politically at all ?
The largest single producer of CO2 in the world by FAR is china. Before the end of the next presidency India will be #2. Between the two they will produce more than 50% of global CO2 – and that will rise every year. US CO2 is dropping.
And independent of all of this – We are just not headed to catastrophic global warming.
The mean of “climate scientists” preductions is 2.5 std dev’s from reality – of 102 models only 2 predict less warming that we have had – 98% of all models have predicted a hotter earth in the past 20 years than has happened – nearly all FAR hotter.
The earth is warming – at the same rate as it has for 250 years – that 200 years of warming that could not have been cause by human CO2.
I am not looking to reopen a fight on CAGW – I do not understand why most on the left – even moderate left do not understand it is a dead issue.
But more importantly while supermajorities of americans buy Global Warming – super majorities simply do not care much.
Yet Biden is selling it and it is going to be part of the democratic agenda in 2020 if Biden wins. That is despite the fact that most americans do not care about Global Warming.
So how is that “moderate” Robby ?
I can (and have) provide you with a long list of policies and issues that distinguish the left from the mainstream. You can not do the same.
You say your governor is a moderate republican – WHY is he a moderate republican ?
How are his policies and issues distinct from the far right or the left ?
If you are going to toss out labels – there should be some rational basis for them
“Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment” – Wikipedia.
So how is it that you demonstrate the analysis of facts to form a judgement ?
How is it that those you criticise do not ?
” Parties are nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence and the founders seem not to have strongly planned on them. ”
Completely agree. I would also say that absent parties Our government would accomplish very little and conform much more closely to the constitution.
The purpose of political parties is to overcome the designed in constraints on government in the constitution.
Membership is a political party for a politician trades occasionally having to support some measure you oppose, in return for the party getting majority support for some measure you support
This is pretty much the antithesis of the constitutional design which deliberately made legislating very hard.
“I wish that the leaders of both sides would police their own extreme members.”
That is precisely what parties do, and precisely what is wrong with them.
Legislation is supposed to be hard – not easy.
“Look at Mitt Romney”
Yes look at him – all Romney is, is Obama lite – that is why he lost the presidential election,
He is a nice enough guy, but he is on the left not right.
RomneyCare is not what Government should be doing. RomneyCare is “socialism lite”.
I am not striving for Less bad than regular socialism.
“Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.”
This will give you a better idea where I am on free speech.
Robby
Here is more good conduct by your peeps.
https://www.wcvb.com/article/virgin-mary-statue-set-on-fire-at-boston-church-saint-peter-parish-in-dorchester/33287717
My Peeps? Really?
Dave, I have sworn off responding to you many times. It is truly pointless to discuss anything with you. I lost my discipline this time, broke my rule and I regret it.
Have a great day, use your brain critically or uncritically where ideology is involved, its your choice. Its none of my business if you have completely fanatical unbalanced ideas. May all your dogs live to be 100.
Robby.
It is not like this mess right now is new. We saw this in baltimore, we saw this in Furgesson.
We know what works and what does not.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/exclusive-larry-hogan-book-baltimore
“After reading the last few day of comments, TNM is no better than The moderate Voice or other sites where the comments are personal attacks and shitfests if your positions differ from the author.”
Agreed. Once the personal insults start, any debate goes downhill pretty quickly. If we can’t address an issue without calling someone a racist, an idiot, an extremist, a hopeless birdbrain, etc., then we are not much better than the politicians that we criticize.
Yep, we have over 500 comments on this one and many of them is just attacking another. And if its not that, its 10 comments saying the same thing, all beginning with a personal attack.
Who wants to get involved in a conversation like that. That is why I left The Moderate Voice twice.
And about ready to sign off here except occasionally there is a good comment. But they are getting harder to find when its not from you.
All argument is attack.
But it should be an attack on the facts, logic, and reason of the person you disagree with.
There is nothing wrong with disagreement.
Fallacious argument is wrong – usually not morally wrong, but still wrong.
Most fallacies are efforts to elide the facts.
Ad Homenim is particularly wrong – usually morally.
Few of us can continue to argument the issue when our character is being attacked.
Ad Homenim is an attack on the person – not an attack on the facts of the logic.
The worst forms of ad homenim are defamation – unproven claims of moral failure.
It is almost impossible to come back from those.
And yet they are commonplace today.
+10
I have no problem agreeing to discussions without personal attacks.
I would not that – saying “your wrong” – is not a personal attack.
Showing that the facts contradict your argument is not a personal attack.
Saying you are a pig, a liar, a racist, a Trumpanzee, a Right or left wingnut – is a personal attack.
There are times when it is approriate to call someone a racist, a liar – but those are rare, and when you defame another person – the burden of proof is on YOU.
This is precisely why not just TNM – but throughout the country we are unable to communicate.
I agree with those who say Trump has made that worse. Trump’s winning strategy has been to use the tactics of the left against them.
It was very effective for him in 2016.
If you – whatever your purported ideology – are calling others hateful, hating haters, racists, homophobes, Nazis, …. without meeting a very high standard of proof. Then YOU are wrong. You are wrong regardless of ideology.
I can only asked that you go back and read the exchange between you and Roby, or even go back in previous articles when Jay was still here and you and him got in a discussion ( I call it a pissing contest) and grade the exchanges based on your current response to me.
And then ask, did it add anything to the discussion for others reading the exchange? We need to keep the thought in mind, that there once was 10+ individuals who would carry on a good discussion and now we have you, I, Priscilla and part time Roby.
And yes, I have commented that others live in a dream world, questioned their thinking, called them liberals, andI yave been accused of being a right wing wacko, Trumpansee, but none have resulted in overwhelming responses that make others want to discontinue being a part of this site.
So again, take a lookat the current comments and do a self evaluation. And if they meet your criteria, then carry on, that is your choice.
“I can only asked that you go back and read the exchange between you and Roby, or even go back in previous articles when Jay was still here and you and him got in a discussion ( I call it a pissing contest) and grade the exchanges based on your current response to me.”
No – you are claiming there is something wrong with that on my part.
I expect you to demonstrate that.
Robby is constantly defaming others.
If you can not PROVE moral accusations of others – YOU have failed morally.
I am not backing down on that.
If you want civility there must be a consequence for incivility.
The consequence I impose on Robby when he defames others is to demand proof, and when he fails to do so, to hold him accountable MORALLY.
If that is not done then all you are saying is those on the left are free to be incivil, the rest of us must suck it up and tolerate false accusations.
We should call out actual racism where we see it.
But if you make a false moral accusation – if you call someone a racist, a hateful, haring hater, if you can not prove that claim YOU are the moral failure.
Civility does not exist when discussion degenerates to lobbing false moral handgrenades.
That is the fundimental problem in our society today.
And the modern source of that problem is unarguably on the left.
I would specifically note – you and I an Prisicalla have sometimes heated discussions – ABOUT Facts, and arguments and issues, and ideas.
I have on occasion accused you of error. I do not recall EVER accusiny you of being a liar or a racist, or a hater, or immoral.
But that is all that other posters ever do.
They do not argue facts, they do not argue at all.
They defame – without proof.
Even on some relatively simply topics like C19.
Robby has repeatedly condemned my arguments – arguments supported by facts, logic, reason, often studies.
He does not argue that my facts are wrong, or that my logic is wrong.
He argues that I am in thrall to right wing extremists – you know the Swedes, and the Germans, and the Danes. That I actually want people to die and that I am immoral.
I would be happy if I were wrong – we all would be. I would be happy if there were government policies that would make C19 go away and actually save lives.
If Robby has an actual argument – I would love to here it.
But all we get from him is defamation.
That is not merely wrong – that is what is wrong with TNM and the country as a whole.
Have you called someone a liar ? A racist ? Have you said they wanted to kill people ?
“I have commented that others live in a dream world, questioned their thinking, called them liberals”
None of those are arguments. Neither are they defamation.
We should make decisions about the use of force in the real world, but otherwise I would prefer to be labeled a dreamer.
I expect and want you and others to question my thinking.
I am proudly a liberal
Webster
Liberal: an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights.
None of those are defamation. Even if there are wrong.
Just as I had lost about all hope for voters, Alabama has brought back some faith that voters may move to more moderate positions and eoect moderate candidates where they run.
But I am glad to wave goodby to the weasel. Alabama got this right and did it big time! Maybe this might block Shumer from becoming M leader.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-football/news/tommy-tuberville-defeats-jeff-sessions-runoff-us-senate-seat/ox5ywtl048ly1fg5d7wm4jx8u
I do not hold an opinion regarding Tuberville.
I disagree with Sessions on numerous issues.
But he is an honest and honorable man.
Being wrong does not make you immoral.
That said he was a failure as AG.
He was a poor choice on Trump’s part – because their policies differ nearly as much as Trump’s and Bolton’s. But the big failure was in recusing himself.
But Trump is actually right about Sessions recusal.
If Sessions was going to recuse himself from investigations (that we already actually over) because of his involvement in the Trump campaign – then he should have resigned.
Think of how different the past several years would have been had Barr or someone like him been AG in January 2017.
There would have been no SC appointment and the FBI would have been told to follow the DOJ guidelines and shutdown the investigation.
This was a failure on Sessions part.
I have no idea if Tuberville is a moderate.
I do not care much – I am not from AL I do not get a vote.
Regardless, Doug Jones chances of re-election are near nill.
Jones himself appears to be a decent and honorable person.
But he is not going to win in AL.
OK, I used “moderate” in a neutralizing way and not as in “centrist”.
I dont know all of Tommy Tuberville’s positions. I do know he is more conservative than Susan Collins. I dont know if he is as conservative as Richard Burr. I doubt he is as uncompromising as Ted Cruz.
But my “moderate” was used in describing the Alabama voters that totally blew it with Roy Moore’s nomination and made what appears to be a good decision this time.. I am not going to list his positions, they can be found with internet searches, but I will say anyone reading my “right wing wacko” comment can use Roy Moore as a perfect example for my “Wacko” description.
You can be left or right. You can be far left or far right. Then there is far left/right wackos.
Roy Moore—-Right wacko
AOC–Left wacko.
I did not attack Tuberville. I know nothing about him.
Doug Jones is probably not far from Susan Collins – But Jones is unlikely to win in AL.
My remarks were about sessions.
Moore did not lose because he was too far right. He lost because just barely enough republicans thought he might be a pervert and did not vote for him.
Moore would have obliterated Jones but for the underage sex scandal.
I am not selling any of them.
I understand Trump’s anger at sessions. He should not have recused, if he could not deal with the situation, he should have resigned. By recusing he through the whole mess into the hands of Trump’s enemies who were definitely out to get him.
We have had 4 years of nonsense that never should have happened.
Had Barr been AG he would have determined that XFH had lost justification in Mid January, and instead of appointing an SC to investigate nonsense that the FBI had already found bogus, he would have directed Horowitz to investigate XFH quietly, and there would have been alot of quiet firings and this whole mess would have ended – peacefully and quietly.
Instead we have riled the country over “the collusion delusion” – that BTW is another of those moral outrages that I have addressed.
I beleive it was Adam’s who said something to the effect that the consitution required a christian nation.
The fundimental point is that without a basic moral foundation – government is not possible.
Progressivism is inherently nihlistic – there is no such thing as progressive morality.
Progressive governance will slowly become solely driven by power.
OK, so again I must expand my definition of a word I used.
WACKO… Someone with beliefs or actions not held or followed/accepted by the greatest majority of people.
So Roy Moore, personal actions, beliefs not acceptable to the greatest majority of Alabama voters leading to a Democrat from Alabama being elected.
And I have no doubts after threats from Shumer, if they had control of senate that Doug Jones would support a Biden/Pelosi/Shumer agenda 100%. Jones does not want charmanship of the senate bathroom cleaning committee.
“OK, so again I must expand my definition of a word I used.”
Not looking for you to expand, just explain.
“WACKO… Someone with beliefs or actions not held or followed/accepted by the greatest majority of people.”
I think that is a bit harsh – some of your views are not held by the greatest majority of people.
Also what is “the greatest majority of people” ?
If a view is held by 51% of the people – is that not enought to save you from a wacko designation ? Or are you a wacko if a view is not shared by 75% of people ?
Going the other way – what about a view that is only shared by 40% of the people – is that a wacko view ?
I would suggest that to be wacko several of your views must be:
likely false AND
not held by more than 25% of the people.
If we are building a spectrum here – you have center, slightly right and left, moderately right and left, significantly right and left and then finally wacko.
I would personally label AOC whacko – but many of her views are shared by large percent of people – but those views are demonstrably wrong
So how do you deal with that ?
“So Roy Moore, personal actions, beliefs not acceptable to the greatest majority of Alabama voters leading to a Democrat from Alabama being elected.”
I am having real problems with “the greatest majority of the people”
Doug Jones views are not shared by the greatest majority of Alabama voters.
But I would not call Jones “whacko”
Conversely I think Roy Moores views are shared by a majority of Alabama voters – he lost by a whisker, and only because the suspicion that he might have had sexual interactions with 14yr olds was unacceptable to just barely enough Alabama voters.
Regardless, I do not think that Moore is either Wacko – or pretty close.
But what I am asking is not do you or I subjectively think Moore is Whacko – but by what objective standard is Moore Whacko ?
A standard that we can then apply to right and left.
I would ask you the same thing as i asked Robby – why is Roy Moore a right wing wacko ?
I am not disagreeing. I am just looking to define terms.
Roy lost because he appeared to be a perv. Though even that is problematic – it was 40 years ago and he was quite young himself – just still too old for 14yr olds.
So here is a few I remember off hand. Could look up more, but not worth wasting time.
Did he not?…
1) Claim 9-11 was gods response for godless American living
2) instrumental in getting the birther movement going
3) was removed from the Alabama S court when he refused to uphold laws that were upheld by federal courts
4) Held muslims should not be allowed to be members of elected USA govt.
And i remember much about anti gay positions, but not exact issue.
I would classify anyone claiming #1 a wacko. Others, i ndividually, not wacko, but all in same person = wacko.
And wacko = certain defeat
Trump is very close to wacko in my mind with all the insignificant crap he gets his hands into for no reason and takes positions most dont care or support.
Did he not?…
“1) Claim 9-11 was gods response for godless American living”
I do not like that claim, but lots of people beleive that things that happen in the world are actions or reactions of god – muslims do, I beleive mormons do.
“2) instrumental in getting the birther movement going”
That was actually Sydney Blumenthal – a Clinton “fixer”.
“3) was removed from the Alabama S court when he refused to uphold laws that were upheld by federal courts”
The removal of the ten commandments from the courthouse.
Federal courts can only overrule state courts in some instances.
“4) Held muslims should not be allowed to be members of elected USA govt.”
“And i remember much about anti gay positions, but not exact issue.”
So did Obama – before he didn’t.
“I would classify anyone claiming #1 a wacko. Others, i ndividually, not wacko, but all in same person = wacko.
And wacko = certain defeat”
And yet Moore came very close to winning, and none of your issues had anything to do with his loosing – but the hint of sexual relationships with 14yr olds decades prior cost him enough votes to lose.
“Trump is very close to wacko in my mind with all the insignificant crap he gets his hands into for no reason and takes positions most dont care or support.”
How so ?
On pretty much all major issues he is pretty close to perfectly aligned with you.
Aparently we have a terms issue.
Crazy and extreme are not the same thing.
Though they quite frequently get conflated in the area of politics.
I think that buying into socialism is both crazy and extreme.
Regardless, I presume that the distribution of mentally disturbed people is not likely to be ideological. There are not likely to be more left paranoid schitz’s than on the right.
Though I suspect that depression and anxiety are more common on the left.
Narcisim is likely evenly distributed but I suspect sociopaths are more common on the left – because sociopaths are drawn to power and the left is more fixated on power over others than the right.
But I am not looking to make a mental health argument.
I am trying to address rational differences between the left and right today.
And while we fixate on figureheads I am more interested in people more generally.
If you list the issues and values of republican or conservative they are all either mainstream – moderate or close.
The majority of people support the republican platform – or the majority of it.
Equally important it is not dangerous, and does not involve policy changes that are unpredictable. To the extent republicans seek change – they seek a return to prior policies not new and untried ones.
Put simply with very few exceptions republicans as a whole are mainstream.
There is no policy equivalent on the Republican side to the green new deal, or free college, or M4A or other moves toward socialism.
There is no republican cancel culture (today).
I disagree with some republican polices. But they are not outside the mainstream.
“I have been accused of being a right wing wacko, Trumpansee”
It would be wise to tone down accusations of being a lefty or a righty – they add nothing to the debate.
Those are fallacious efforts to marginalize. They are bad arguments, and I have confronted Robby specifically on those.
What does right wing wacko mean ? If it is 60% of the country is is meaningless.
If your issues are shared by 60% of the country – you are not “far anything” and the attempt to marginalize fails.
While i do not like these fallacious efforts to marginalize – they are not the fundimental problem. They can be addressed – Robby can explain what a far right extremeist is – not who, but what and why .
Trumpansee is different – it is significanly worse ad hominem. it is comparing you to a monkey – that is defamation.
But the worst problem – the sin which can not be forgiven, is false moral accusations.
“You want people to die”
“You are racist”
“You are a hater”
“You are a nazi”
“You are a liar”
Unsupported accusations of moral failure.
Defamation.
If you say these things of others – you had better be prepared to prove them
Here is John Kass on the future.
It is a short but excellent piece.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/07/15/could_president_joe_biden_hold_back_the_left_143718.html
2016 should have been a watershed election – the democrats should have figured out why the lost and fixed the problem. Instead as a result of decades of destruction in our schools and colleges the left spent the past 4 years engaged in a war of terror, that has escalated.
We are all dying for a return to normalicy – whatever that is. The left has successfully duped many people into beleiving that Trump is the cause of the insanity – but it should be obvious that he is not.
Barri Weis is not leaving the NYT because of Trump. People accross the country are not losing their jobs for saying “all lives matter” or for failing to say “black lives matter” or confess their guilt, or for mentioning that research exists that indicates that the police might not be systemically racist – none of this is because of Trump.
The NYPD commissioner and several others were pumelled today with two by fours, several receiving serious head injuries.
Lets say Trump is defeated and Biden is elected – why do you expect a return to normalcy ?
If threats and violence, if the chaos of the past 4 years worked to get rid of Trump – why should they stop ?
Do you think Joe Biden is the man to stand up to the left and say – STOP ! and mean it ?
Biden has already proposed a 93T green new deal – it is slightly less stupid than that of AOC.
Biden is promising to end Fracking – exactly what is that going to accomplish ?
That will instantly shift the global balance of power to Russia and the Mid East.
It will require that Europe kowtow to either Russia of the mideast.
It will result in the return of US military focus to the mideast. It will mean more endless war in the mideast with the US at the center of it.
Biden has also promised to make nice with China.
Who in their right minds thinks that is a good idea ? While we do not want war with China, no sane person wants the authoritarian China of Xi excersizing serious global power.
China has made no secret that it intends to dominate the entirety of Asia.
You have seen what happened in HongKong. China does not tolerate those who stand in its way. There is only one obstacle to China dominating asia and later the world – and that is the US, And Biden wants to return to the Obama years where the US stood idly by as China increasingly Bullied its neighbors.
Regardless – what is the good relationship with China you see under Biden ?
Like the leftist children who are throwing a temper tantrum and threatening to burn down the country if we do not give them what they please – do you think China will behave better if they get what they want ?
I want to be clear to those like Robby – the left is not coming for me – not yet atleast not for a while – whether Trump wins in November or not the “right” is quite obviously far stronger than you presume. No one is coming to Cancel me or republicans any time soon – they are mostly immune. True political censorship by the giants of social media is not likely possible – the scale of the problem is just too large – but should that prove false – Social media will become divided – the right will slowly move to places like Gab or Parler – or who knows what.
Nor is the left likely coming for my job anytime soon.
If you want to understand where the left is coming next Robby – there is an editorial on the Atlantic – A book review of “White Fragility” by a black man – “The Dehumanizing Condescension of White Fragility”
The left is coming for YOU – not me – atleast not first. It will be a long time before they come for me. I am strong and you are weak. I stand up – not just for myself but others. I am not afraid of them. But you are. I have been called a racist, a hateful,hating hater – by you, why should being called that by a bunch of snotty young adults who have had a cultural marxist education and think they are changing the world scare me.
A YOU scared yet ? I do not know. But clearly democrats are. Why in gods name would Biden put forth this Green New Deal II ? If he says these things to get elected – he may be forced to do them – atleast some of them.
Four years of Trump has NOT changed the world into a horror show – the US is fracking like crazy – that has radically altered geopolitics. But it has had zero impact on Global warming.
Trump has deregulated like Crazy – and again diseases have not spiked, Food and Drug poisonings have not increased. Our streams and rivers are not being destroyed.
But our economy was doing better – atleast than under Obama/Biden.
If you reverse all that – do you expect things to stay the same ? Or revert back to the Obama/Biden economy ?
If you destroy Fracking – what is going to replace those jobs ? Magic ? No we are told that renewable energy jobs will do so.
In the entire world only one country has significantly reduced their CO2 output by reducing fossil fuels and not damaged their economy in the process – France, and they went to a 100% nuclear power grid. Spain went heavy into renewables – and it bankrupted the country and was disasterous. The outcome in much of the rest of europe was not quite so bad – but they are still phasing out or their commitment to renewables because the just do not work today. California is all in, but they can not meet their target and one of the richest states in the country has the least reliable and most expensive power system.
So lets go nationwide with the stupidity of California – because the Greta Thunbergs of america want that, and they will cancel you call you a racist or take your job away if you do not capitulate.
Robby – you tell me that your at odds with the far left – well they own your party.
DeBlasio is going forward with the destruction of the anti-crime unit and cutting NYPD’s budget by $1B next year – because he is affraid to alienate the children – they might riot.
Apparently MD Gov. Hogan has a new memoir out about the 2015 Freddy Gray Riots.
He was having enormous problems because Baltimore mayors and politicians in the midst of riots were afraid to act – for fear of inflaming the rioters.
We are seeing the same thing today.
You want a return to normalacy – how do you think that will work ? When has capitulating to the demands of toddlers and thugs worked out ?
Here is an example of defamation by the media.
Joy Reid is inargably “the media”.
She tweeted an image of a person in a MAGA hat adjacent to a 14yr immigrant.
She then claimed that woman had confronted the 14yr and told him he was going to be deported, and she later posted that the woman was a racist and nothing had changed since the 50’s.
The problem – none of this is true.
The woman was consoling the 14yr not threating him and nothing even remotely racist was said.
La Liberte filed a defamation claim against Reid.
Reid filed an anti-Slapp claim and won the case in CA and La Liberte was forced to pay Reid’s legal fees.
The federal court reversed on all counts.
La Liberte is not a public figure in the context of this defamation action.
The wrong anti-slapp standard was used.
The case has been returned to California for trial.
Joy Reid has falsely accused someone of being a racist, and hopefully will be held responsible.
She is far from alone in having done so. Hopefully others will be accountable too.
Our public discourse can not become more civil until those making false accusations of racism are held accountable.
The covid deaths reporting from Florida is a bona fide scandal, but in today’s world of scandals every second, it’s not getting any attention. Mostly because it doesn’t fit the narrative of “Florida’s covid cases are out of control!”
This article is about one of the more egregious cases of misreporting, but there are many. It’s about a young man who died in a motorcycle accident, but was reported as a covid death, in order to increase the fear of young people dying of the virus.
https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/fox-35-investigates-questions-raised-after-fatal-motorcycle-crash-listed-as-covid-19-death
There is also the unreported-on story of the 450 Florida labs reporting 100% positivity rates on covid testing. Democrats are calling this a “minor reporting error” and a “conspiracy theory,” but are not disputing that it’s true. I would link a couple of local news reports, but WordPress would put my comment in moderation. Her’s a pull quote from one:
“But scrutiny over reported data is causing some to question how accurate that positivity rate truly is, with more than 450 labs reporting 100 percent positivity in the state’s latest report.
The Department of Health has in part blamed the missing data on private labs failing to report negative results. “In recent days, the Florida Department of Health noticed that some smaller, private labs weren’t reporting negative test result data to the state.” (Source is Capitol News Service)
So, for example, they report 100 tests with 100 positive, neglecting to report that the total # of tests was 500.
My overall point is that we are being lied to and misled everday about this virus, and it’s because of politics. There is a “joke” going around that6 goes something like this:
“I went to see my doctor the other day, and I asked him “Hey Doc, when do you think this covid thing will be over” and he said “Why are you asking me? I’m a doctor, not a politician.”
Meanwhile, kids are being kept out of school and sports, small businesses are going belly-up, people are skipping important cancer-screenings and other medical appointments, and people are being arrested for not wearing masks in Walmarts, but freely allowed to deface statues of George Washington. Unbelieveablly FUBAR.
For the most part the consequences of what you are revealing are no more than short term panic. The actual number of cases, the actual number of deaths – are what they are.
The actual death rate has increased very slightly in July – but it is not spiking, and it is still low. That means whatever the cause of the spike in cases there are only 3 possibilities:
It is the consequence of greater testing.
The virus has mutated and is less lethal
Treatment has dramatically improved and fewer people are dying.
None of these can be hidden long.
Much progress on a vaccine.
https://www.businessinsider.com/hopes-for-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-by-oxford-trial-breakthrough-2020-7
You have more faith in our government approving this before the election than I do. Two reasons, too much red tape and too many lifer government employees wanting to see Trump defeated. Virus stays, Trump gets defeated, vaccine announced in Dec, Joe takes office in Jan, everyone is getting a shot, Joes “The Man”, got us the vaccine!!!
I have almost no faith in government.
I completely agree regarding red tap.
But the current politics are unusual.
If there is a vaccine that is available and appears effective the public pressure to make it available – atleast voluntarily is going to be enormous.
Though we should really do as Walter Block said and just end the FDA.
We do not need it. They are net harmful to our health.
“If there is a vaccine that is available and appears effective the public pressure to make it available – atleast voluntarily is going to be enormous.”
And who is going to release info that the FDA finds the vaccine safe for use? Under my thinking ,not the FDA!
“And who is going to release info that the FDA finds the vaccine safe for use? Under my thinking ,not the FDA!”
You really think that news of an effective vaccine will not leak out ?
So, I looked in quickly, habits die hard, I and found that the person I consider to be the least crazy one here believes that:
“too many lifer government employees wanting to see Trump defeated. Virus stays, Trump gets defeated, vaccine announced in Dec, Joe takes office in Jan, everyone is getting a shot, Joes “The Man”, got us the vaccine!!!”
In other words “lifer government employees” will see that tens of thousands die in order to elect Biden. Very Nice Good grief.
Meanwhile Priscilla and Dave think that the Florida COVID rates are a fraud. Well, would you move down there and walk around freely in the worst areas without a mask? Would you do some science of your own in Florida test your theories in person? I didn’t think so.
Guys I have been here, what, 11 years? I am truly done tis time. I will never look in here again.
If and when trump goes down in Nov I will Not be here to say, well guys what happened to your theories? Because by that time you will all be in full conspiracy theory froth (well you already are) and you will believe that the election was a fraud if the GOP takes a beating. It likely that your heads are going to be so full of nonsense by election day that you will hardly be able to function.
I cannot believe I spent so much wasted time here.
I know Roby is not going to be around to read this, but I will comment anyway.
Does anyone think that this vaccine will be approved for use in America by Fall?
I don’t
Does anyone think this vaccine might be approved in other countries by fall?
I do.
Does anyone think if the UK, China or other countries begin using it in early fall that our FDA will speed their research and bypass their approval process?
I don’t
Does anyone think that if we had a system closer to what Dave want, little approval by government, that drugs would get approved faster?
I do.
Roby thinks I am a conspiracy nut, but did he read what I said. I don’t think so. I said it would not be approved by fall because of government red tape.
That is true. Even Fauci says one can’t be approved before 2021.
Does anyone think they are going to fast track any new drug? Would a career (lifer) government employee put their job on the line to get something approved and circumventing the approvals processes.
I don’t think there is one. Maybe I am wrong.
So yes, the election will come and go. Biden will be elected (in my opinion), a vaccine will be approved late 2020, it will begin being used, it will be effective, C19 will be reduced to something like a flu with only those refusing a vaccine getting it and who is the press going to give the credit?
I will let other make their own opinion on that.
“Does anyone think that this vaccine will be approved for use in America by Fall?”
If it truly looks promising Trump is likely to force FDA to approve it by EO.
And we will have a giant fight over it.
“Does anyone think this vaccine might be approved in other countries by fall?”
Yes,
“Does anyone think if the UK, China or other countries begin using it in early fall that our FDA will speed their research and bypass their approval process?”
Again if the FDA tries to slow walk a vaccine that is promising – he will force it through the FDA.
“Does anyone think that if we had a system closer to what Dave want, little approval by government, that drugs would get approved faster?”
There should be no FDA. Provate parties like Consumer reports, UL or goodhousekeeping can determine what criteria a drug must meet to get their seal of approval.
And each of us can decide whether to take an uncertified drug or not.
“Roby thinks I am a conspiracy nut, but did he read what I said”
No he did not
“Does anyone think they are going to fast track any new drug?”
The only way there is not a holy war over a vaccine – if one is really ready by Sept. is if C19 is gone by then – which is likely.
If C19 is still threatening. We will near certainly end up with some compromise.
It will be approved for use on some specific groups. Possibly high risk old people.
and/or on a voluntary basis.
“Would a career (lifer) government employee put their job on the line to get something approved and circumventing the approvals processes.”
They have more than enough authority to do so. The easier we make compasionate use, end of life use, or emergency approval the LESS the FDA approves things.
“So yes, the election will come and go. Biden will be elected”
There are just too many counter factuals for me to buy this.
Less than 1/3 of americans want the redskins to change their name.
Only about 1/3 of americans want CONFEDERATE statutes removed.
About 1/3 of americans do not want southern states to change their flags.
Only about 20% of people want to reduce spending on police.
More people want to increase police spending.
Even my wife wants to buy a gun.
There are myriads of polling data like these that indicate that 2/3 of americans do not want ANYTHING the democrats are pushing.
This is not an environoment Biden is likely to win in.
A recent poll of undecided voters found that 68% of then “knew” someone they thought was voting for Trump but was not admitting it. Only 20% of them thought they knew a reluctant Biden voter.
90+% of Trump supporters claim they are Voting absolutely positively, and they are enthusiastic about doing so.
Barely a majority of Biden Supporters are enthusiastic.
In NYC DeBlasio stood by while 14 Policemen got beaten over the head with a 2×4 including the police commissioner.
A black woman was arrested for trying to change the “Defund Police” Road sign in front of Trump tower to “Refund Police”.
Support for BLM accross the country is dropping.
In portland the police are standing idle as rioters attack federal officers defending a federal courthouse with bottles, fireworks, frozen water, rocks. There was even some kind of mortar used against them.
Murders are shooting up in big blue cities accross the country.
There are not even significant numbers of black people who want the police defunded.
“So, I looked in quickly, habits die hard, I and found that the person I consider to be the least crazy one here believes that:”
If you do not want insulted, the minimum requirement would be to not insult others.
Ron discuss the possibility of some agreement on some rules for civility.
Is that possible ?
Can we agree to Criticize ideas not people ? Especially not other members of TNM ?
“In other words “lifer government employees” will see that tens of thousands die in order to elect Biden. Very Nice Good grief.”
That is a gross mischaracterization of Ron’s point.
I do believe there are far to many who would actually see more people die rather than see Trump reelected – I believe that – because you can go out and find people literally saying that.
But fortunately that is not most people.
I think a significant portion of people actually grasp that C19 does not give a crap about government policies and the same number of people will die no matter who was president.
But they want Trump gone sufficiently bad they will level false accusations if that will lead to getting rid of them.
I would note that the “deep state” – or Ron’s government lifers, do not inherently share the same values as other anti-trump forces. They seek to preserve their own power and influence within government. Trump or ANYONE looking to reign in government is a direct threat to them. To their jobs, or to their power. They are not inherently ideological, though they lean left – primarily because left is the direction of growing government power.
“Meanwhile Priscilla and Dave think that the Florida COVID rates are a fraud.”
Again gross mischaracterization.
There are some errors in our data – throughout the country but just as with data from china some parts of trends can be trusted even if the precision of the data is less than perfect.
With specific respect to FL and elsewhere – I beleive the test results are approximately accurate – as accurate as they are elsewhere and as accurate as they have been in the past.
Meaning that if someone tests positive the odds are they have C19.
But pretty much everyone grasps that the number of positive tests each day is only a fraction of the new cases each day.
I can make an argument that the new cases in April was 20-20 times higher per day than reported – and that today it is more like 6-10 times as high.
I think there is lots of evidence to support that assertion.
But there is a much better argument.
Hospitializations lag new cases by about 4 days. While hospitalizations have only increased slightly.
Deaths lag new cases by 10-14 days. Deaths increased a small amount breifly and are trending down again. From a peak of almost 4000/day in April, the last 3 says have been 943, 905, 848. There is a 7 day cycle in the death data so we can not be certain that deaths are dropping until friday, But we can know there is no sharp upward trend.
Robby, you can beleive whatever you want.
You can beleive as Priscillia and I do that the spike in new cases is because we are identifying more infected people, not because we have more infected people.
You can beleive that there really is a huge spike in the number of cases, You can beleive Covid has mutated and it is now 5 times less fatal.
There are other more far fetched possibilities – but ultimately what does it matter.
If deaths and hospitalizations are declining – but mild cases are spiking C19 is not a problem and there is no basis for a lockdown.
“Well, would you move down there”
I have been in FL in the summer – I do not need C19 to keep me from going back.
I have also been in TX in the summer – and I am not going there either.
“and walk around freely in the worst areas without a mask? Would you do some science of your own in Florida test your theories in person? I didn’t think so.”
I do not go to Costco right now without a Mask. I am 62 and I am missing part of my right lung. If I catch the flu it lays me up for 2 months. I do not have to beleive C19 is spiking to choose to be careful.
That said, one of my businesses is commercial building inspections. If I got hired to do 50 buildings in the worst part of FL right now. I would take a bunch of masks, and disinfectant wipes and head to FL.
Priscilla, with only three of us here, your preaching to the choir.
I read this earlier. Maybe he was speeding to get out of Florida before the virus caught up to him, thus C19 was cause of death.
In the past several weeks the US death toll tick up very slightly and then leveled off.
This is perfectly consistent with small increases that should be expected as we reopen.
It was NOT consistent with the nonsense that we are in the midst of a 2nd wave.
Robby claims my views on C19 are heterodox.
They are not.
It is bizzarre for me to be defending Europe – they did no better that the US verall at dealing with C19. But the Europeans have been less likely to try to paint everything with the Orange Man Bad brush.
There is no only no sane reason not to open schools in the fall – it is increasingly evident there was never a good reason to shut them down.
Robby and the left rant that supposedly Science favors them – WHAT SCIENCE ?
The determination that this is a very low risk for students – much lower than the flu, is SCIENCE.
The conclusion that no C19 policy has demonstrated to be effective – is both Data AND science.
Before we started the current mess, it was well known scientifically than “flattening the curve” has zero impact on the total number of people who are infected. That it is a desparate “hail mary”. That unless the lockdowns result in improved ability of hospitals to reduce fatalities there is no benefit at all, and lots of harm. This is SCIENCE. It has been the understanding of science for decades.
I am not opposed to masks and social distancing. But they only serve 2 functions – they buy us time, and If and Only If significant numbers of others DO NOT wear masks and social distance they increase our individual odds of being protected by herd immunity without getting C19. But social distancing rules and mask requirements do not do significant damage, while lockdowns do.
“But the Europeans have been less likely to try to paint everything with the Orange Man Bad brush.”
That is due to the level of leadership! If your Big Mouth, blow hard, take credit New York yankee bully and paint everything good orange, then be ready for everything bad to be painted orange.
And dont ask for specifics. Just go thebTrumps twitter feed.
Governance in Europe is NOT overall and improvement over the US.
But there ARE some specific ways in which europeans do better.
This is one.
They are not unfortunately reproduceable in the US.
‘Maybe he was speeding to get out of Florida before the virus caught up to him, thus C19 was cause of death.”
Haha! Maybe that’s the logic!
https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2020/07/13/the_sooner_the_fda_is_disbanded_the_better_for_us_all_498850.html
Since we are fixated on Tucker Carlson
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/07/17/tucker_carlsons_top_ratings_a_good_sign_for_trump.html
This fact check should just be taken down completely.
It is BOGUS that the results are inconclusive – the results are obviously FALSE.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/usa-today-corrects-ridiculous-fact-check-comparing-trump-campaign-shirt-to-nazi-iconography
I do not completely agree with this – but I do agree with most of it.
I would note that the author casts the balance of trade issue with China as a weakness for CHINA – not the US. America can do without chinese imports, China can not survive without exports to the US and other countries.
Our data on China is poor, But my guess is that China is in the midst of a recession – possibly a severe one. My guess is that China moved strongly against Hong Kong for the same reason that Putin moved agressively – to cover for a weak economy.
The one point I woulds disagree with is that China will not act militarily.
While I do not think they will – I think that is far from certain. The US posture towards china is very hostile – and the US have gotten the nations surrounding China actively engaged in that posture.
The fact that the Chinese navy is inexperienced and weak does not mean that China will not lash out.
They are doing exactly that with Hong Kong.
https://geopoliticalfutures.com/the-truth-about-the-us-china-thucydides-trap/
https://twitter.com/EraseState/status/1284139891593543689
The message the left is sending us is “let us destroy and the violence will stop”.
We are told that if we will just allow anarchists to take over a federal courthouse – that everything will be fine – after all CHAZ worked out so well.
We are told that if we will just allow “protestors” to tear down a Columbus statue – that all will be fine.
We are told that there is some parity – that it is OK for “protesters” to throw rocks and frozen bottles, but we are going to micro manage the amount of force the police can use.
If you are trying to take over property that is not yours – you are not a protester, you are a criminal.
If you are trying to destroy something that is not yours – you are not a protester, you are a criminal.
If you are throwing things at law enforcement – you are not a protester, you are a criminal.
If you are hitting police with 2×4’s or canes – you are not a protester, you are a criminal.
If you are firing fireworks at police – you are not a protester, you are a criminal.
In a perfect world the police would deal with criminals with the minimum force necessary.
In the real world perfectly matching force to offense is not usually possible.
We are increasingly seeing police officers beaten and injured doing their jobs.
If this continues someone is going to get killed.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/18/us/chicago-protest-18-police-injured/index.html
The primary source of division in this country is the left.
And they are doing so deliberately.
Some very good statistical analysis of C19 data.
http://www.data-analyst.org/wp/coronavirus-covid-19-the-fallacy-of-some-simple-arguments/
Texas hospitalization data
How did we let this happen ?
These people are going to run the country soon
Voter expectations surveying – which has a 50% better track record at predicting elections has Trump beating Biden 55/39.
https://spectator.org/why-the-polls-predict-trump-will-win/
There is a separate major first amendment problem with these street murals. As well as the protests.
Remember that the SCOTUS decision upholding rules against Churches reopening occured before the protests.
Immediately after those decisions various mayors have completely undermined the rational for the decisions.
Atleast one federal judge has already ruled against Covid rules on the grounds that you can not allow protests, while stopping similar gatherings.
Roberts found (I beleive improperly) that it is content neutral for government to have different rules for HomeDepot than for the local church.
But the moment you allow BLM protests – Government must allow all similar viewpoint based expression – and that includes religion.
Making things worse public leaders have carved out specific exceptions for BLM protests.
These exceptions will go down in flames.
The same problem exists with BLM and Defund the Police Road Murals. These are a serious problem as they are government paid for viewpoint expression.
When government creates a public forum – and that is what it is doing when it allows one kind of protest or paints political or viewpoint messages on public space, then government MUST make that forum a neutral public platform. There is more than a century of law on this.
Judical Watch is now suing the DC mayor to get their own street banner.
The rules for government speech are extremely strict.
It is likely these NYC protestors will have a strong first amendment claim in their defence.
You can not deface something that is not allowed to exist in the first place.
I do not personally have a problem with the City allowing messages to be painted on its streets. Though the city itself can not paint them, or fund them.
But if a city chooses to do so, it must allow that forum to be open to all.
It must allow gay groups to paint street banners, and muslims, and the KKK.
It can not censor content beyond barring obscenity.
This is a reflection of a fundimental problem with the modern left.
They quite literally do not understand nor care about free speech.
Quite a change in 60 years.
In Berkeley is the 60’s those on the left demanded the right to speak freely. They shutdown campuses to do so, and the courts ultimately supported them.
Government can not allow some speech and not others.
Today the left is trying to silence dissent, and it has no problem demanding that government speak ITS message and only ITS message.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/07/18/black_woman_defaces_black_lives_matter_mural_outside_trump_tower_re-fund_the_police.html
I found this shocking. I do not know what to say.
https://twitter.com/ryanlongcomedy/status/1285208497517473793
Now I side with Roby and Jay.
Trump has gone over the line with this one! This clearly is a violation of the constitution. If he is willing to disregard the consitution in this manner, where would he stop. And if William Barr said he could do it legally, he needs to go also.
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/portland-protests-judge-andrew-napolitano?fbclid=IwAR2sh3jL8VqMM2svUzMzU-BQlmgk1IjaFdCMMa6i0_dKy3BRP38NVQ0_t9E
Sorry Ron this is false reporting.
This is much like the Trump drove peopl out of laffeyette park to have a photo op.
Ultimately every element of the reporting on this was determined to be false. But you would not have heard of that.
The decision to clear the park and move the security line was made by the park police long before. The process was delayed waiting manpower to do the move less dangerously.
And because Bar was asked to approve. The whitehouse was not involved.
Protestors were warned ahead repeatedly, and ignored warnings.
Lots of objects were thrown at police at numerous towns for the 24hrs before the move.
And on and on and on.
As to this. There is no requirement for federal officers to wear name tags.
The FBI, Secret Service and myriads of other officers do not even wear uniforms.
These officers not only have uniforms identifying them as police but have unique ID numbers on those uniforms – what they do no have is their names.
We already know that Anitifa has threatened violence to police – not just federal police, but even the portland police. And we know that specific officers have been singled out for personal retribution.
Regardless, the officers have badges and specifically identify themselves when they make arrests. The unmarked vehicles are rental vans. Regardless – are you claiming that the police never use unmarked vehicles ? The FBI almost never uses marked vehicles.
FBI agents to wear vests emblazoned with FBI when they make arrests – these officers wear uniforms labeled police.
Camo is increasingly common for policing today. Swat teams frequently wear Camo.
I think it is stupid – Portland is NOT in the middle of the hertzgen forest, Camo is meaningless. If anything it calls attention to the officers rather than hiding them.
No one is being kidnapped. Suspects are identified usually from security or other cameras, or by officers witnessing illegal action, and when a subject is identified for arrest or interigation. the Vans are dispatched to try to arrest the subject when they are separated from the crowd. Or atleast not in the middle of hundreds of people.
The objective is to minimize the risk to EVERYONE. Trying to have 40 officers in a line isolate and arrest a suspect for some violent act in the midst of hundreds of violent rioters,
And lets be clear – that is what these people are.
Portland is under curfew. While local police have been ordered not to enforce it. Legitimate protests are not allowed after dark – that is why all the video you see is from night.
If these people want to protest, they can do so legitimately during the day. They are not.
Instead they are gathering just before dusk. Staging some distance away – these are well organized riots.
Increasingly we are seeing women and others behaving mostly innocently – except that they are engaged in a riot not a protest forming the front line. These people growd the federal agents but do not engage. Behind these human sheilds – often litterally with sheilds are others lobbing frozen water bottles and bricks and commercial fireworks and in one instance a mortar, and in some instances Molotov cocktails.
Numerous police and federal agents have been injured in portland.
The agents have worked hard to identify those behind the protestors who are engaged in actual violence. Absent far larger forces and far more confrontation they do not have the ability to isolate and extract these perpitrators from the crowd without serious risk to those in the crown and themselves – hence the vans which wait until alleged perpitrators are alone or atleast not part of the crowds. When that occurs the move in arrest the alleged perpitrator. identify themselves read them their rights and question and/or arrest them.
None of this is actually improper.
I would note that several legal blogs – actually good ones – such as johnathanturley.org have analyzed this and found that not only does the federal authority exist to do this – but a great deal more and there is significant past federal precident.
There has been a fight over the prospect of sending the military in. And claims that would be illegal. It is not, the use of real military to protect federal property – as well as several other law enforcement actions has occured numerous times in the past.
In fact the military has been ordered by the president in the past to break up camps of retired soldiers protesting for war benefits. These were legitimate protests on public federal lands. But they were legally justified as confiscation of federal property,
So if Trump wanted to send soldiers to Portland to protect the federal courthouse – he could.
I am not sure that would be wise – but there is plenty of historical precedent for it.
Federal troops have been sent to break up riots from the time of Jefferson. Numerous presidents including Lincoln, Wilson, Johnson and Clinton used federal troops to break up riots. Willson used troops – Gen. Douglas MacArthur to break up protests on federal property.
Federal troops were also used to protect blacks trying to register to vote in the south, as well as to protect black students going to predominately white schools.
Federal Troops were deployed in the south for a decade after the civil war to protect blacks.
None of these and numerous other federal actions were ever determined to be unconstitutional.
Trump, DHS are well within historical norms. Claims to the contrary are garbage.
I would personally like to see federal law rolled back radically, such that some of this actually was improper. But pretending it is extraordinary when it is not is nonsense.
I would further note there are innumerable federal laws being broken in these riots – and lets not try to pretend these are anything else.
I do not care if you are a 20 something wanna be soccer mom, if you are knowingly sheilding people behind you lobbing rocks, ……. you are a criminal.
I would prefer to see the rock throwers arrested and that is what DHS is trying to do.
A few more points – though there are many possible.
Laws are enforced by FORCE. I have said this over and over.
If you do not want federal officers in Portland protecting federal property.
Then do not ask for federal courts in portland.
Or ask the portland police to do their job – which they would be happy to do, but for the interference of the portland mayor.
We have seen this all across the country and as far back as charlottesville where local police were precluded from doing their job and mahem ensued.
There is conduct I have seen from these Federal agents that appears questionable – though more context could change that.
But there is none I have seen that was racist – many of these officers are black and most of the rioters are white.
But even if the context proves insufficient.
If you are not going to enforce the law – repeal the law.
It is that simple.
I want far less laws – at all leverls.
But when something is justifiably illegal – and this is, the law must be enforced BY FORCE, if necescary. And law enforcement will make mistakes – few we hope, but still mistakes.
So nothing the judge said was correct?no
I understand the Insurrection Act and the feds protecting federal laws and assets.
So everything ye said about detaining people, etc was a lie?
“So nothing the judge said was correct?no”
Correct. I like Napalitano, but he is NOT a legal scholar.
“I understand the Insurrection Act and the feds protecting federal laws and assets.”
This goes well beyond the insurrection act.
As I said before NOTHING in this narative is true.
There is no requirement that police wear uniforms or carry badges, or wear identifying tags.
Or use marked cars. All of this is completely made up – and it takes very very little thought to recognize it. Police normally wear uniforms etc for their protection and to project authority.
People on the street are not obligated to defer to and obey random strangers who claim to be police. But failure to follow the lawful directions of a uniformed police officer is a crime.
There are specific legal requirements that must be followed to arrest a person – these include identifying yourself as a police officer. These DHS officers performing these arr following those requirements.
The people in portland know that the officiers defending the courthouse are law enforcement.
Further these rioters are not listening to them anyway.
There is real storm trooper conduct that I have real problems with – but that is not applicable.
i have major problems with police swat teams, no knock warrants and shock and awe tactics such as raiding an apartment at 3am with a swat team and a no knock warrant.
None of that is occuring here.
We have officers that are CLEARLY law enforcement – in a primarily DEFENSIVE posture,
Being ATTACKED by rioters.
The officers performing the arrests in the vans are not kidnapping people and they are not doing anything even close tot he equivalent of shack and awe swat raids.
I have seen video of specific examples of officers behaving in a suspect fashion – though I would like the full context of the situation not an edited for the MSM clip before coming to a final judgment on a police officers behavior.
Further I EXPECT in confrontations like these that people will NOT behave perfectly.
I expect that if an officer is pelted with rocks for hours that he might be more aggressive than he ought when someone who has been throwing rocks at him all night comes within reach.
One more question. They only protected the court house, nothing more?
“One more question. They only protected the court house, nothing more?”
I am not sure what the question is.
The official reason for the federal agents presence is the protection of the courthouse.
That obligation is actually rooted in the constitution – it can not be overriden by law of any kind.
But beyond the constitution there are innumerable legitimate justifications for their presence.
Here is Andrew McCarthy on the subject.
https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/508509-trump-v-big-city-mayors-when-the-feds-should-and-shouldnt-act
McCarthy points out that without bringing in the national guard or the military there are serious limits just due to resources to what the Feds can do – the FBI is 1/4 the size of the NYPD. and the FBI is the biggest federal agency. These people are from DHS.
Returning to your question – I strongly suspect the objective is much broader than protecting the courthouse – and includes:
Trump is toast if protestors occupy a federal building.
Trump is getting pushed very hard to take a hard line against protests, but there is actually little that the federal government can do, and even less without local cooperation.
I was surprised at your response. Even CNN which is bar$hit crazy is having problems painting this as as peaceful protests as they pan the streets and there are fires everywhere.
I am generally hard on police – I want them to do their jobs much better.
BUT that does not mean I want them to stop doing their jobs.
There might be circumstances in which I MIGHT contemplate descalation in the face of peaceful protests. Where I might risk peaceful protestors taking over federal property temporarily. This is not even close to that.
Do you have any doubt at all that these people are intending to destroy ?
Peaceful protests do not involve burning things, Molotov cocktails, mortars, bricks, …
I have been part of protests. If any of this was happening – I would be gone.
There is not even some underlying theme to the protests.
This is an ordinary federal court.
This is not where George Floyd died. Or some miscarraige of justice is about to take place.
Roy Moore is not a judge here.
What is being protested beyond the existance of a federal government ?
Why should I view these protestors with sympathy and not as just thugs !
“Trump is toast if protestors occupy a federal building.
Trump is getting pushed very hard to take a hard line against protests, but there is actually little that the federal government can do, and even less without local cooperation.”
I dont care if Trump gets run out of D.C.on a rail car! If they are protecting anything but federal property and they have not been asked to come in, then what gives them the right to override local law enforcement?
If he does this and gets away with it, who is to stop the next president from taking the next step in enforcing some other local law that is not coming close to federal property?
Just look at the constitutional rights that have been “refined” over the years. I keep talking about the crabs in the crab pot. This is just another example of that slow burning of rights that never should happen.
“I dont care if Trump gets run out of D.C.on a rail car!”
I understand that – but you asked about what they were up to.
I am guessing about motives, but I am certain there are more motives than protecting the courthouse.
I do not care at all what their motives are, only whether their actions are legal.
This is not even close, to a problem.
“If they are protecting anything but federal property”
NOPE – they are completely free to enforce all federal law.
“and they have not been asked to come in,”
Not relevant.
“then what gives them the right to override local law enforcement?”
Their what you are facing is “dual sovereignity”.
Federal agents only have the power to enforce federal laws.
But there are LOTS of those.
“If he does this and gets away with it”
He has, as has nearly every other president.
“who is to stop the next president from taking the next step in enforcing some other local law”
You seem to think that these agents are enforcing state/local laws.
They are not. That is a giant red herring.
“that is not coming close to federal property?”
Another red herring. While Federal agents has absolute jurisdiction regarding federal property, They can enforce federal laws ANYWHERE already – even in your bedroom.
“Just look at the constitutional rights that have been “refined” over the years. I keep talking about the crabs in the crab pot. This is just another example of that slow burning of rights that never should happen.”
There is pretty much nothing going on in Portland that would not have been permitted in 1787 during Washigton’s persidency.
If you want to rant that there are way too many federal laws – I am 100% behind you.
But destruction of federal property and assaulting a federal officer have been federal crimes for ever
Ron.
Somehow Napalitano has convinced you of some things that is in outerspace.
DHS’s actions in portland are not unusual, not unconstitutional.
It would be NORMAL for local police to assist – even take the lead.
It is not required.
There is no requirement that any federal agent be invited by state or local agents – ever.
Federal agents enforce federal laws. Not state laws.
State and local agents state and local law. Not Federal laws.
But they often cooperate with each others.
If there is overlap – CONGRESS (or the constitution) created that
Protection of federal property is ALWAYS the responsibility of the federal government .
Protection of all property is the responsibility of the state.
There is an overlap. That is not new.
There are many other federal laws, there are certainly federal laws about arson to federal property, assaulting a federal officer, ….
“Federal agents enforce federal laws. Not state laws.
State and local agents state and local law. Not Federal laws.”
So what specific law were they enforcing when they went on the city streets of Portland and detained citizens who were protesting?
How far away from government property do protesters have to stay. Outside the fence, one block? One mile?
I also suspect that one part of the purpose for the DHS agents is to identify and prosecute the leaders of this mess.
Portland is the epicenter for insanity. If the Feds can identify the organizers and leaders of this and prosecute them it will likely chill protests everywhere – or atleast ratchet down the violence.
The “protests” are not the big deal. It is the ORGANIZED violence that is operating as part of them.
No one would care if everyday protestors marched to the federal courthouse.
That is not what we are seeing.
Again the violence is not spontaeous, it is planned … organized.
“So everything ye said about detaining people, etc was a lie?”
If you are present at a riot – you can expect that you may be detained.
This is not something unusual to Portland.
I have zero problems with these officers picking people at random from the crowd, and questioning them.
If you are at a bank robbery do you expect that you will not be questioned ?
That said – that is NOT what is happening.
The officers are using video surveilance to identify the people behind the front lines who are engaged in directing the conflict or who are actually throwing the rocks etc.
After they identify those, they attempt to arrest them – under circumstances where there are not large crowds arround them and the danger of escalation is greater.
These have been actual arrests, questioning, detention – and sometimes release, when either they have misidentified someone, or where they were unable to build a strong enough case to hold them.
Again what is wrong with that ? The police can hold someone for hours without charging them. That is nothing new.
There is nothing going on here that is outside of the norms.
If you want to claim that on occasion these officers are overly aggressive – possibly even abusive – that might be correct.
When that occurs we can address each circumstance – in full context, and determine whether there is a serious issue with the specific officers conduct.
We do not want any more dereck Chauvin’s.
As to the broad strokes – Frankly Trump is being restrained. I would send in actual military troops, I would have them sweep EVERYONE up who was at the federal courthouse after curfew, I would charge every single one of them with rioting. and then I would detain them and interview them all trying to get them to roll on the leaders and the actors who were violent. I would be looking to take the leadership out of antifa and put them in federal prison for several years.
That is what needs to be done to stop this.
Arrest a couple of hundred on rioting charges that eventually devolve to some kind of disorderly conduct, and put the leaders away for years based on the evidence you can get from rolling as many of the rioters as possible.
These people are NOT the mafia, there is no code of Omerta here.
I fully expect that Soccer Mom’s facing the prospect of a night or two in detention away from their kids will roll on the organizers. I expect that it should be trivial to get to and shred the organizers of these events, and to get them for serious offenses.
Commercial Fireworks, Molotov cocktails, rocks, etc. are not showing up without prior planning. conspiring to riot, to destroy property, to arson are serious crimes.
Send a half a dozen key people away for 5 years and this all ends quickly.
OK I am still missing something. And since you are the resident Libertarian “expert”, much more so than I, please explain.
1) It is my understanding that local law enforcement, or lack of, is a result of state and local government policies and procedures. If, and only if, state or local government requests federal help in riots, disasters and other issues does the feds have the constitutional right to enforce any state or local law. Now they can go into a city with riots, place their men and equipment at federal buildings and protect those assets.
Where am I wrong on that one?
2) it has been stated in numerous articles this same information the judge writes “with no notice or local consent, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security sent teams of agents — untrained in crowd control and wearing military fatigues — onto Portland’s streets.”
And that is where the detainment and physical confrontations took place.
Where am I wrong on this?
3) I DO NOT WANT any federal government agent authorized to enforce any law they decide needs enforcing. I don’t care if its Obama, Biden, Trump or any other president that might have done it! The states NEVER gave the feds the right to come in and enforce any local law unless those local officials request it. And I believe that SCOTUS has ruled on that before!
“1) It is my understanding that local law enforcement, or lack of, is a result of state and local government policies and procedures.”
yes and no.
Portland as a whole is totally insane, There is been roiting their near continuously since Trump was elected. The portland mayor is a complete dingbat.
The Portland Police want to do their job and bring the city under control and have been repeatedly thwarted over the past 4 years by the mayor. This aspect is entirely local.
It is likely that an ulterior motive of the DHS is to have an impact on that.
“If, and only if, state or local government requests federal help in riots, disasters and other issues does the feds have the constitutional right to enforce any state or local law.”
That is a NORM, it is not the law.
Feds CAN NOT enforce state or local laws PERIOD. But there are so many federal laws now that they have great power inside the states.
The FEDS CAN AND HAVE been sent over the objections of the States – see the entire 50’s and 60’s in the south. There is not even close to an issue here.
“Now they can go into a city with riots, place their men and equipment at federal buildings and protect those assets.”
Not new. Essentially upholding the constitution.
“Where am I wrong on that one?”
I do not understand what you think is the question.
There is no if and only if the states request. The southern states certainly did not request union troops to come in during the civil war ? Or to occupy the south during reconstruction ?
Or to desegregate the schools ? or to assure that blacks could vote ?
“2) it has been stated in numerous articles this same information the judge writes “with no notice or local consent, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security sent teams of agents — untrained in crowd control and wearing military fatigues — onto Portland’s streets.”
There is nothing wrong with the statement – the problem is it falsely implies that local notice or consent is required. It is not. It is the NORM, nothing more. There are many many many counter examples.
It is not even a strong norm. The FBI or federal marshalls operate nationwide and often do not tell locals anything – not even that they are present.
Further local notice and consent is entirely irrelevant with regard to protection of federal property.
This is a perfect example of biased news – you are being led to beleive something unusual is occuring.
The only think unusual here is the riots.
“And that is where the detainment and physical confrontations took place.”
Federal agents can act anywhere in the country.
You have the state and local law thing wrong. They NEVER enforce state and local laws.
The ALWAYS enforce federal laws. So long as they are doing so – they can do the same as you would expect of any police officer. They can detain people question them and arrest them. They have nationwise jurisdiction to enforce federal laws.
“Where am I wrong on this?”
In buying the fake narative that there is some need for local permission or cooperation.
“I DO NOT WANT any federal government agent authorized to enforce any law they decide needs enforcing.”
I am not sure what you mean.
Federal agents can enforce ANY federal law.
State agents can enforce ANY state law.
Neither can enforce the others laws.
We like it when they cooperate. It is not required.
“I don’t care if its Obama, Biden, Trump or any other president that might have done it!”
This is not about Trump or Obama – the past examples are Washington. Lincoln, Wilson, Eisenhower, LBJ – and probably nearly ever other president.
The only thing unusual here is the riots.
We had something similar with the Bundies in nevada – though that was more complex.
The Bundies were armed – but there was no actual violence.
They occupied a federal sanctuary – that had recently been CONFISCATED from private citizens.
I would note that at Ruby Ridge and Wacco and the Bundy Ranch the feds went in without any involvement of state or local law enforcement to PRIVATE PROPERTY and INITIATED the violence.
Put simply there is absolutely nothing offensive in protecting a federal courthouse.
There is nothing offensive in enforcing federal law.
“The states NEVER gave the feds the right to come in and enforce any local law unless those local officials request it. And I believe that SCOTUS has ruled on that before!”
I beleive you are correct – in fact I think there is no “unless”. The Feds DO NOT enforce local laws PERIOD.
There is OFTEN cooperation. There is no requirement for it.
I personally would support RADICALLY reducing federal criminal law. But assaulting a federal officer will ALWAYS be a federal crime. Trying to burn federal property will ALWAYS be a federal crime.
I am getting the clear impression that you think Federal officers are enforcing state laws.
That is not happening, and it is not allowed.
Yes, so if they were not enforcing federal laws, what were they doing when ….”According to the account of one victim, he was walking peacefully in the downtown area, observing the chaos, when five masked men in fatigues exited an unmarked SUV, grabbed him and pulled him into the car. They tied his hands with plastic behind his back. They pulled his cap over his face. They kept him for two hours and then released him. They filed no charges against him.”
What federal law was he violating?:
There are too many of these type reports to not have some validity! At least to investigate!
“Yes, so if they were not enforcing federal laws, what were they doing when ….”
You answer your own question. There were enforcing federal laws.
”According to the account of one victim, he was walking peacefully in the downtown area, observing the chaos, when five masked men in fatigues exited an unmarked SUV, grabbed him and pulled him into the car. They tied his hands with plastic behind his back. They pulled his cap over his face. They kept him for two hours and then released him. They filed no charges against him.”
Lets start with “according to the account of one victim” – every client my wife has claims they were innocent and minding their own business.
But lets address what has been reported that is being ignored.
The Courthouse is being attacked. A wide variety of crimes are being committed.
Destruction of property, Arson, and assault of an officer high on the list.
There are federal versions of these crimes.
For the most part the perpitrators are standing several yards back from the front line of protestors. So federal law enforcement would have to break through the protestors to arrest the guys trying to blind officers with lasers, throw rocks, ….
So the feds are using cameras to identify the people committing crimes – as well as potential witnesses and co-conspirators.
The identify these, print out pictures and send officers in an unmarked van out to look for these alleged perpatrators and witnesses. When they find them they drag them to the van, and question them. If they are suspects, the mirandize them.
Regardless, they may question them and release – and arrest later, or they may arrest them.
So you are making your Libertarian views very clear. Your Libertarian until Trump does something Libertarians dont support. I am seeing more clearly Jay ‘s and Roby’s understanding of your unconditional support for Trump.
In my expectations, if you send the feds to protect federal buildings, they protect them the same as troops protect consulates and embassy’s. From others entering the grounds, nothing more. Once they cross the line of willy nilly arresting leople that “look like” someone, they have crossed the line.
If Portland wants to burn down their town, fine! Burn baby burn! They deserve the government they voted for! If cities want to allow autonomous zones and citizens are killed, people voted for it! If Chicago wants to allow 15-20 people getting killed daily over weekends, they voted for it! And if they want it stopped, any of these, then they can ask for help. Then, and only then, do I support feds coming in to do anything but protection of assets.
Andy Ngo on what is going on in Portland.
More from portland.
“So you are making your Libertarian views very clear. Your Libertarian until Trump does something Libertarians dont support. I am seeing more clearly Jay ‘s and Roby’s understanding of your unconditional support for Trump.”
No Ron. I would be happy to see the power of federal agents severely constrained.
I would wipe out the vast majority of federal crimes.
But i can not in my most libertarian dreams imagine that assaulting people – whether they are police or not would not be a crime, or that trying to burn down or take over property that is not yours would not be a crime.
Further I get from my wife plenty of actual stories of real abuse by police, that are far more egregious than this.
“In my expectations, if you send the feds to protect federal buildings, they protect them the same as troops protect consulates and embassy’s. From others entering the grounds, nothing more.”
If you want to limit what federal agents do – then CHANGE THE LAW.
“Once they cross the line of willy nilly arresting leople that “look like” someone, they have crossed the line.”
?? This is what police do all the time. They do not personally know most of the people they arrest. Often people are stopped detained, even arrested – not because they “look like” someone in a picture – but because they are a black male -5’6-6’0 with a grey hoodie – i.e the match a short verbal description on a radio.
AGAIN if you want to shange the standards from detaining and questioning people – CHANGE THE LAW.
In this instance federal agents are working from photos – that is far better than the police do most of the time.
“If Portland wants to burn down their town,”
Nope,
If protestors want to burn their own property fine.
The federal courthouse belongs to the people of the united states.
Local government buildings in portland belong to the people of portland – not protestors. Businesses in portland do not beleive to government.
Portland is failing at the “social contract” – that inherently means their govenrment has no legitimacy. This is not far from the Nazi’s and crystal nacht.
” fine! Burn baby burn! They deserve the government they voted for! If cities want to allow autonomous zones and citizens are killed, people voted for it! If Chicago wants to allow 15-20 people getting killed daily over weekends, they voted for it! And if they want it stopped, any of these, then they can ask for help. Then, and only then, do I support feds coming in to do anything but protection of assets.”
Look – I really badly want to limit federal laws and law enforcement – but these people are being arrested for arson, bomb making, assault, I do not have a problem with that.
BTW, you noted several people being let go. Andy Ngo noted that the fed’s arrested (for another crime) the person who brutally assaulted him over a year ago – who is well known and yet the portland police could not find him for over a year. Now that he is federal jail Ngo has been able to get him served. McEnany in another video provided a list of the injuries to these federal officers. So in Ron world – do the feds only arrest protestors for destroying govenrment property – not for blinding the police trying to protect it ?
Hum, and people who worked for mevsaid I was to “exact” in words. Youvset the highest limit.
So i am going to dumb it down to a much lower level and see if we can agree on something.
1. If Portland or anyone else elects officials and those local officials will not enforce STATE ir LOCAL laws, I dont support fedsndoing it fir them.
2. If Portland or anyone else is demonstrating and they are not threatening government buildngs in anyway, I dont support feds getting involved.
3. If Portland or anyone else is threatening government buildings, I support feds being in the buildings to protect those assets.
4. If Portland or anyone has feds on the building grounds and demonstrators come on that property, I support their legality to detain and arrest those demonstrators.
5. If Portland ir anyone else causes damages to government assets, I support the feds detaining and arresting those causing the damage.
I DO NOT SUPPORT SUPPORT THE FEDS DETAINING AND ARRESTING SOMEONE JUST BECAUSE THEY WATCHED SAID PERSON TRESPASSING NO GOVERNMENT PROPERTY FOR THE PURPOSE OF DOING HARM.
By the way,.once Trump sends troops to control demonstrations or violence, he then owns the outcome no matter if it takes days, weeks or months.
Ron,
I am very interested in what you have to say on this. I do not agree with you.
But I am particularly interested because you reflect a cross trend to what I am seeing.
Numerous polls are saying – and Trump is responding to those that very large portions of americans – especialy near the center are very upset about the rise in violence, the rioting, and the spike in crime, and that Trump must stand up to these or he will lose the election.
These people are responding favorably to the DHS standing up to antifa in portland.
You are otherwise a pretty strong Trump supporter – and yet you are reacting in the opposite way.
I am very interested in how you arrived there. This is not about whether I agree or disagree.
I am likely far more infavor of limiting criminal laws, and limiting police power than you are.
But there is nothing that Trump/DHS are doing in portland that George Washington would not have done. Regardless of what the media and Napalitono may have said – there is nothing unusual with respect to this. I personally have a huge problem with the existance of the DHS. But whether DHS or not – Federal courthouses were going to be defended.
“Numerous polls are saying – and Trump is responding to those that very large portions of americans – especialy near the center are very upset about the rise in violence, the rioting, and the spike in crime, and that Trump must stand up to these or he will lose the election.”
So I responded earlier about how I view the way I interpret what the constitution should allow based on the 10th amendment. You explained why you think different.
Now for why I hold the position on Portland that I do. I do not trust any politician, Trump or otherwise. I hold that any politician that puts a small toe over the legal line eventually moves that line to where the small toe is inside the line. That is why you can go back to when the constitution was written and at that time the president had very limited powers. Mostly in foreign policy only. Without any constitutional changes, the president now just signs an executive order today and whatever he wants in law, he has done through are regulatory E.O.
So given that, I have read different articles about what is going on in Portland. Here is one that does not seem to be politically motivated and seems to be neutral in its reporting.
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/what-we-know-dont-know-about-portland-dhs
In most all of this information I have no problem with the actions, But the main issue and the one that I believe infringes on the rights of the individual is the one where someone is plucked from the streets, taken to a location, may or may not have been read their rights (because no one said he was or was not and the gov’t would have said so if he had), not told what he was being detained for, questioned and then released, without any documentation one way or the other to support or deny any allegations from either side.
You may accept that level of police action, I do not. I do not accept that just becasue he was walking down a street and appeared to be someone that might have attacked the courthouse that they had the right to put him in a police van, take him to an undisclosed location (to him at least) and then question him for over and hour before determining he was not the right person.
That is no different than “walking while black” that so many in this country finds unacceptable and I bet a large number of law and order conservatives also finds unacceptable.
And I find that more unacceptable for the black boot feds doing it than local cops because if they get away with it in Portland, whats to say Trump doesn’t send them to Chicago to defend some federal asset, but they just go there to address the local crime taking place and the 90 minutes of questioning becomes 9 hours of questioning?
Sorry, you are much more liberal in your thinking about federal policing authority than I am. Probably due to living with a legal scholar for years and knowing the limits.
So the Justice Department I.G. is going to investigate the actions in Portland.I welcome that. Hopefully that will be released to the public in its entirety without 90% redacted like so many reports out of that agency.
There are atleast three issues here.
The first question is whether Trump is outside of constitutional authority – and sorry Ron, but the answer there is this is not even a close call. Not even for a textualist. Geirge Washington took actions more egregious than this.
The 2nd issue is have the DHS officers behaved perfectly.
There is atleast one instance I have seen video of that without further context likely constitutes abuse. But I am not going to make a final conclusion on that without alot more information. And even under the worst possible interpretation an officer got angry, took it out on a protestor, and ultimately no one was hurt. Under the circumstances that requires no more than a reprimand.
There is the related but independent matter of picking people up in the unmarked van.
If there is an IG investigation – then he can determine whether proper procedures were followed. But despite media allegations which falsely challenge the entire legitimacy of the actions – there is nothing conceptionally wrong with the alleged actions, so long as due process requirements were met. Atleast on the surface that appears to be the case. People were questioned – and they were released. That suggests that if sufficient cause to move forward was not found the officers released these people.
At the core of the claims against this seems to be a presumption that federal agents can not detain people briefly to question them – that is just made up bunk.
The other stupid claim is that off federal property the agents have no jurisdiction – that too is complete nonsense. Federal jurisdiction is nationwide.
You also fixation on the federal courthouse. That is the justification for their presence.
But the law does NOT require that every single action they take must be predicated directly by the protection of federal property – that is another left wing straw man.
You are however correct that they actions MUST be predicated by Federal law – not state or local law. Though I would note there are complications. Portland has a curfew. Portests are not permitted after dark. All these actions are occuring after dark.
That is actually important – NO ONE “protesting” at the courthouse is engaged in legitimate protest. They were free to do that during the day if they wished.
Federal agents can not enforce portland laws. BUT they can legitimately presume that these people are lawless rioters not protestors.
I would further note that there is LOTS of evidence these actions are well organized. That makes this all a very large criminal conspiracy – and the federal agents are free to treat it as such.
With respect to the incognito claim.
First DHS has actually confirmed that each officer is identified on their uniform – just not by name.
As CATO noted that is not required. Federal agents do not typically where name tags. Mist of us are familiar with FBI agents. They do carry badges and ID. So do these agents.
ID is provided to anyone detained, questioned or arrested.
With respect to arrests – probable cause is the standard for arrest. I beleive the same standard is required to detain and question someone. But for that it is probable cause that a crime has been committed NOT that the person detained committed the crime.
Those who are actually arrested must be arraigned quickly, if there is insufficient probable cause the magistrate will release them, and they may have a claim against the government.
Anyone who is being detained is being mirandized – only actual suspects must be mirandized. These people are free to request a lawyer.
If suspects are not mirandized, if they are not allowed a lawyer if requested – that is a problem. If that were the case – I am sure the press would have reported it.
The pettibone case indicates that due process is being followed. Pettibone refused to be questioned without a lawyer and was released. That sounds fine to me.
I disagree with CATO that further investigation of probable cause is needed badly.
Anyone who is charged will have the oportunity to challenge the probable cause for their arrest before a magistrate and later before a judge. The job of doing so rests with THEIR lawyers and any lawyer just out of law school can manage that. I would further note that probable cause is easily met – and it is self evident with respect to anyone who has marched to the courthouse after dark.
It is self evident that federal crimes have been committed – that is all that is necescary to question anyone who might be a witness. Merely establishing that a person was present meets the probable cause requirement.
The distance the pickups are from the federal courthouse is a stupid red herring.
It is not relevant where these people are picked up.
All that is relevant is that the agents can establish to a very low degree of certainty that those picked up were present in front of the courthouse after dark. That is sufficient to claim that are part of a conspiracy to violate federal law.
I want to be clear – the standard for questioning is lower than the standard for arrest which is lower than the standard for conviction.
Fed’s had the requisite cause to detain and question Pettibone. The agents aparently decided they did not have sufficient cause to arrest him.
That sounds like the officers are acting reasonably.
While Olsen is SOMETIMES spinning this negatively, his legal analysis is excellent.
Though his note about cosplay like performances is NOT sound. ‘
There is nothing that law enforcement can to ultimately to distinguish themselves from people faking being law enforcement.
All of Olsen’s suggestions their are pointless.
The appropriate standard is that you can not charge someone with resisting arrest unless those arresting you are able to identify themselves as law enforcement.
If an officer gets shot and killed trying to take someone into custody without properly identifying themselves – that is the officers problem.
“But the main issue and the one that I believe infringes on the rights of the individual is the one where someone is plucked from the streets, taken to a location, may or may not have been read their rights (because no one said he was or was not and the gov’t would have said so if he had), not told what he was being detained for, questioned and then released, without any documentation one way or the other to support or deny any allegations from either side.”
But there is no actual credible claim that is happening.
Pettibone’s account confirms rather than contradicts that proper due process is being followed.
If anyone has actually been arrested – they had a lawyer at their arraignment – if that person did not get due process it is their lawyers job to challenge that – that is one of the primary things that occurs at arraignment. The other is that the defendants lawyer gets a first free peek at the governments case.
Put simply an arrest requires a review of pretty much every element of these actions that is questionable by a federal magistrate in an adversarial setting.
I would personally like more teeth to the meaning of probable cause.
But that is a broad problem caused by the incredibly weak definition of probable cause used by SCOTUS. These agents are obligated to meet the constitutional standards that exist and apply to every arrest in the country. NOT those I wish existed., NOT those I beleive our founders intended.
There is nothing here that is unusual.
Do you beleive that the inquiry you require was conducted when Freddy grey was taken off the streets of baltimore and killed before he was arraigned ?
“That is no different than “walking while black” that so many in this country finds unacceptable and I bet a large number of law and order conservatives also finds unacceptable.”
This is what is happening because you say so ?
Again – anyone who was actually arrested was arraigned.
The purpose of the arraignment is to have a third party determine if there was probable cause for an arrest in an adversarial setting.
This is not about “walking while black”.
Though I would make clear that merely participating in an illegal protest is sufficient to arrest.
The standard is very low. If you do not like that – take it up with SCOTUS.
“And I find that more unacceptable for the black boot feds doing it than local cops because if they get away with it in Portland, whats to say Trump doesn’t send them to Chicago to defend some federal asset,”
The standard is the same for ALL law enforcement.
What is to say Trump does not send them to Chicago ? Federal marshals and ATF agents are already in Chicago trying to enforce federal gun and other laws.
“but they just go there to address the local crime taking place and the 90 minutes of questioning becomes 9 hours of questioning?”
But this is NOT the case. You keep returning back to Federal officers are enforcing local laws. But they are not. No federal magistrate will allow an arrest based on a local crime.
Federal officers can only arrest best on federal criminal allegations, They can only convict based on federal criminal charges. While at arraignment and in a trial evidence of violations of state of local laws is admissable, you must be arrested for a federal crime, you must be convicted of a federal crime.
This claim that Fed’s are enforcing local laws is nonsense that Napalitona or someone has gotten into your head.
It is just not true. You can not be arrainged in a federal court for violating a local law.
As to the duration of questioning – that is again a question for the supreme court.
I would be happy to see SCOTUS apply some serious limits to police questioning.
But the standards – whatever they are are universal – they are the same for the Feds as for state and local police.
If these people are detaining people without sufficient cause – there is a federal class action lawsuit brewing.
Honestly I do not see a basis for an IG investigation here – there is already an independent review by the courts when these people are arraigned and later prosecuted.
There is also the oportunity for these people to go after the government and federal agents if their civil rights are violated.
If congress wishes to waste time on this – thats fine.
I have no problem with appropriate consequences for actual misconduct.
But there is nothing here that warrants outrage. There is nothing here that is unique – except the level of political violence on the left.
“Sorry, you are much more liberal in your thinking about federal policing authority than I am. Probably due to living with a legal scholar for years and knowing the limits.”
There are LOTS of ways I would like SCOTUS to reign in law enforcement.
I had hoped that the Floyd incident might get rid of qualified immunity.
Though I would bet that the officers in Portland do not have qualified immunited and know it.
That is a long legal argument.
But I am not going to hold these officers to a completely different standard than law enforcement through out the country.
”
So the Justice Department I.G. is going to investigate the actions in Portland.I welcome that. Hopefully that will be released to the public in its entirety without 90% redacted like so many reports out of that agency.”
I think that is stupid – we may get something good, We may get political nonsense.
But we already know or should know there is nothing here.
Every actual arrest must go before a federal magistrate – and every objection you have can be addressed their or later in court.
To the extent there is a problem – it is with what SCOTUS has allowed. That will not be solved by an IG or even a congressional investigation.
AS even your CATO article noted – Trump has much more federal authority than is being used.
There were federal actions during George Washington’s presidency.
Priscilla noted Fort Sumter. The south was occupied by federal troops during reconstruction.
Johnson sent Feds into the south to enforce voting rights laws.
There is some dancing regarding the National Guard – it is always prefered they are requested. But Trump CAN send them in unilaterally – and he can send them in JUST based on rioting, Further the National Guard CAN be used to enforce local laws.
NG forces could be sent in in large numbers, they could not merely protect the courthouse, but they could be used to encircle and arrest ALL protestors after dark, or all protestors when violence is occuring. All protestors could separately be arrested on federal charges and detained for days or weeks.
That is almost certainly why Portland is not asking for the NG. The mayor could end up with law enforcement that he has no ability to control.
I would not that the federal courts are slowly invalidating many of Mayor Wheelers directives to police. The Portland police have an independent obligation to uphold the law. The mayor’s authority over them does NOT go so far as to require them to accept lawlessness.
I expect the police to behave well. I expect them to follow due process. I wish SCOTUS would re-invigorate the 4th amendment. I beleive that police should be disciplined for any misconduct and prosecuted for serious misconduct.
But I also beleive that they must enforce the law.
Portland is nearly lawless – not only is the federal courthouse being attacked – but in the past 4 years massive amounts of property damage and arson have occured throughout the city.
I actually beleive we are close to a point in Portland where Federal forces COULD go in and essentially declare martial law. This is not about legitimate protests. This is a coordinated violent effort to revolt.
Both in CHAZ and in Portland these people have sought to take over and institute their own idea of law. Not only are they a complete failure -but the constitution actually forbids that – even with the acquiesence of the state. This is not merely rioting that the local authorities can not handle. This is a deliberate effort to undermine governance that has the tepid support of local government. This is not much different from Fort Sumter – except scale.
Here is Turley on a different issue – whether calling these federal officers storm troopers is libel.
Turley is correct – Pelosi;s remarks are scurlious – but they are constitutionally protected free speech.
I would strongly suggest reviewing all of Turley’s articles on Portland. And other uses of Federal force buy Trump.
Turley actually testified to congress about Laffeyette park. Turley found that with a few minor issues that the officers followed correct procedure and due process.
He has similarly found that the feds have more authority than they are using in Portland.
If you do not like the law as it is – CHANGE IT.
I would support some fairly radical reductions in federal criminal law.
But honestly, I am not going to bar the federal government from protecting federal property.
I am not going to stop them from prosecuting people who injure or attempt to injure federal agents. and I am not going to limit their jurisdiction to federal property.
Even if I get rid of 90% of federal laws.
1). Mostly I agree. Further, it is not happening. There is an actual constitutional issue where the federal government is actually obligated to insure that state and local governments function, that has almost never been used – we have never had an instance before where a state of local govenrment has so egregiously failed to enforce its own laws. Regardless, though that power exists, I do not think you will seeTrump act on that – doing so would be constitutional, but it would be highly unusual.
2). Again Mostly I agree. But you keep making this about buildings. There are federal laws that go well beyond buildings. The most obvious one is that Federal officers are being assaulted in a variety of ways protecting those buildings, I fully expect that the feds will do everything in their power to prosecute those assaulting federal officers.
3). Again agree – but words matter – the Feds are constitutionally obligated to protect federal property (at a minimum). But their jurisdiction is nationwide. They are not limited to being “in” the buildings protecting them. They have as an example repeatedly driven rioters more than a block away from the buildings and that is legitimate to protect both the buildings and the officers.
4). Again agree – but that is NOT the limit of federal power. If someone commits (or witnesses) a federal crime – whether on the federal property of not, the Feds are free to detain, arrest, and prosecute them – of course meeting the normal constitutional constraints, and that investigation, detention or arrest can take place anywhere in the united states.
5). Again agree.
I
I have no idea if these stories are true – it really does not matter – because as the story is told – aside from the adjectives there is nothing there.
If you are present at the scene of a crime, police can LATER stop you, detain you, question you, and either charge you or release you.
I have had a state cop threaten to throw me in jail for the night and impound my car because I told him politely he was wrong when he said I was speeding.
That upsets me – but it is perfectly legal and happens hundreds of times a day.
If you are detained by the police – you should request a lawyer, ALWAYS.
It will likely make things take longer, especially if they only view you as a witness.
But do not talk to cops without a lawyer – not locals, not feds.
If you are mirandized – ask for a lawyer and then STFU.
“What federal law was he violating?:”
At the time of questioning – probably none.
At some other time ? It is near certain the person either witnessed or participated in a crime.
“There are too many of these type reports to not have some validity! ”
So.
“At least to investigate!” – investigate what ? Questioning witnesses and suspects is not a crime. Taking people into custody to do so is not a crime.
The completely most innocent interpretation of this on the part of the person questioned – is still not a big deal.
When a crime is committed the police can question potential witnesses and suspects.
And they do all the time.
I would prefer that they are as polite as possible under the circumstances – but that is not a requirement.
What is it that you are expecting in Portland ?
Are you expecting the Federal government to allow a federal courthouse to be burned down, ransacked, looted, or taken over ?
I watched CNN reporting on Mayor Wheeler’s trip to the courthouse – CNN was talking about mostly peacefull protests. – while showing video of wheeler getting hit by a water bottle with fires burning all over the place and people throwing things.
Do words have no meaning ?
What is being peacefully protested ?
As best as I can tell the protests are because these federal agents are preventing “protestors” from burning down the federal courthouse.
I am just not sure how it is “peaceful protesting” to be protesting against the people who are preventing you from engaging in wanton destruction.
And I am not impressed by a “wall of mom’s” that is functioning as a screen to allow those behind them to throw rocks and molatov cocktails etc.
The Portland police have declared that these “peaceful protests” constitute a riot every day for the past 55 days.
I think that the federal response in Portland is appropriate. The rioters have chosen to target a federal courthouse, on federal property, and it’s lawful and appropriate for the feds to have a response, since the Portland police have said that they were specifically told to stand down.
Tom Cotton compared the situation to Confederate rebels attempting to take over Fort Sumter, and, from a legal perspective, he’s correct. Antifa may not be an official army, but they act as one, and they use deadly weapons, vandalism and arson to achieve their goals, one of which is to overthrow our political system. I think that the Fort Sumter analogy is fair.
I do agree that the camo is unnecessary, and somewhat incendiary. On the other hand, the masked black “uniforms” that Antifa wears are intended to stoke fear, and stay totally anonymous.
Trump has honored federalism more that any recent president. If he believes that a federal response is necessary in Portland, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s not Hitler…
The camo is pointlessly stupid. This is an urban environment – Forest Camo is useless. ‘
But I would point out that contra other claims it DOES constitutes an identifiable uniform.
They are marked police, and they do have identifying tags – just not names.
The officer questioning, detaining or arresting someone does provide an actual name.
The fort Sumter comparison is not perfect, but there are large numbers of strong similarities
I do not beleive DHS should go beyond what they have done.
But contra myriads of claims – they have plenty of legal and constitutional authority to do so.
This is not even a close call. Wilson sent the actual military to break up “protests” in washington by former soldiers looking for a pension bonus.
There is a long history and plenty of law to support this.
This touches on most everything and is excellent.
Ron;
“A federal judge on Friday denied a request by Oregon’s attorney general to restrict tactics used by federal officers in Portland, finding the state lacked legal standing and presented scant evidence to support allegations that the officers were illegally snatching people off city streets.”
going further into the details the Judge found that all the claims against DHS were either false, or both rare and inconsequential.
https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/07/federal-judge-finds-state-lacks-standing-denies-oregon-attorney-generals-motion-to-restrict-federal-police-actions.html
Dave, here is an opinion article from our local paper. This editorial staff is centrist for the most part and many times endorse GOP candidates. They are not the New York Times!
But in reading this and seeing two former Homeland Directors criticize this action, I am more convinced Trump is acting like a dictator than before. And have more concerns about federal police getting involved.
https://journalnow.com/opinion/editorials/our-view-an-assault-on-american-cities/article_423e3117-cd69-5041-a934-92c267c10920.html
“But in reading this and seeing two former Homeland Directors criticize this action, I am more convinced Trump is acting like a dictator than before. And have more concerns about federal police getting involved.”
A federal judge tossed the Oregon AG’s challenge to all of this – as total complete nonsense.
Trump is many things – he is not authoritarian.
I also linked the Dave Rubin Ben Shapiro interview. I thought it was excellent.
It ran accross many subjects, Oregon was one. As Shapiro noted, Trump’s problem is that he has NOT acted strongly enough in response to all of this rioting. Not that he is too authoritarian.
But Shapiro and myriads of others have addressed other aspects – not just of Portland, but of much of the not just attacks on Trump – but just the overall attacks of the left.
The left LIES – about everything. They say things and expect us to beleive. They claim up is down and down is up, and expect us to beleive.
Trump is many things. One of Shapiro’s critiques – that he is NOT focused, is quite good.
But he is NOT authoritarian.
But I will tell you that should the left continue as they are the result will be Authoritarian.
I do not know if that will be left authoritarian, or right but chaos always leads to Authoritarianism.
Look, I am vigorously opposed to DHS – it was a huge mistake to concentrate all that power in a single agency.
Absolutely we should have been concerned at the time, and were not enough, and we should be concerned now.
The potential for abuse is enormous.
I am also concerned because EVERY government agency has a SWAT team – even the Department of education has a SWAT team.
This is very dangerous – when you give government agencies a toy, you create the drive to use that toy.
There are many fears I have about goverment agencies and DHS – but this is not one of those.
There is ONE thing that is “unusual” about the federal response to portland.
The NORM would have been to send in the National Guard, and the FBI.
Let the Guard protect the buildings – and BTW there are more than one federal building under attack. Let the FBI target the rioters for their criminal actions against those protecting the buildings.
The move to DHS is unusual. Technically it is LESS authoritarian – bringing in the NG is a much bigger deal than bringing in CBP agents.
But Trump does not Trust the FBI – and frankly quite justifiably. Recently we have the FBI notes that they were actively Spying on Trump in his briefings as a candidate. That they intentionally used these to try to find a basis to investigate Trump. And that they reported back to the FBI and the WH on this.
BTW the other major revalation this week was that Steeles Primary sub source for the Dossier has been identified as a Russian American – with no real ties to Russia – but he is Heavily tied to the Brookings institute – a well regarded democratic think tank.
He is ALSO closely tied to about half the witnesses in the impeachment hearings – as an example Fiona Hill. It is highly likely there will be criminal referals for potential perjury in their house testimony.
The good news for Democrats is this actually means that Steele and the DNC probably did NOT get faux dirt on Trump from Putin. But the bad news is actually worse.
First this was all an entirely democratic operation, and the “dirt” was either “made up” or it was substantially embelished from old news reports most of which were in error.
But the 2nd problem is that the FBI knew this – FROM THE START.
One of the other problems is that the Steel Sub Source is also tied to Rosenstein.
Even Prof. Turley is starting to sound like me.
Do you grasp that the purported bat shit crazy conspiracy theories of the “extreme right” are all proving True ?
What kind of world do we live in when Alex Jones is more likely to be reporting the Truth than the NYT ?
The article is crap from the first line.
These are not paramilitary forces – they are CBP agents.
And what is it that you expect to be deployed to protect a federal courthouse ?
Can we be rational here ?
There is this idiotic presumption that but for Trump the Federal courthouse would be safe.
Really ?
Someone is going to be sent to protect the Federal courthouse from Rioters.
Do you think anything would go better with a differnet choice ?
Washington, Lincoln, Johnson, Grant, Wilson, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Clinton have all used actual Federal troops – not the Guard, and for far more controversial purposes.
The south was occupied by federal troops acting to enforce local laws for a decade after the Civil War. Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson deployed federal Troops to the south to end Jim Crow, and they sent the FBI in to investigate, arrest and prosecute people. The FBI was also used to destroy the KKK.
This is not even close to that – it is far LESS authoritarian, It is far LESS a violation of states rights.
The purportedly controversial Tom Cotton NYT oped not only recommended – but provided the legal justification for sending the actual military to US cities, as well as the historical precedent for doing so. Even Prof. Turley – who is on the left and a democrat, while disagreeing that this is what Trump SHOULD do, fully agreed with Cotton’s legal and historical argument that Trump CAN do this.
I would further note that though Turley was highly skeptical of the Laffette Park action, he was ultimately called to testify about it in the House, and in foing the research – finding out the actual facts of the event found that the claims this was done for a photo op were crap.
And that with very few minor exceptions the administration story was completely true and again except for a few minor details the actions taken were appropriate, justified, legal and followed due process requirements. I beleive that Turley felt the Police line over running the Austrailian News team was improper, but he specifically noted that the clearing the area was easily justified by recent events, that the “protestors” continued to be violent all day – though less so than during the night, that they were given ample warning REPEATEDLY, that the saw the police line form a hundred yards away and wait patiently for them to clear, that the line moved forward slowly, giving the “protestors” ample time to clear, and that while limited amounts of pepper spray were actually used, it was legally justified under the circumstances.
So pretty much everything said about Laffeyette Park by the left, and the media and many of the same people claiming Trump is authoritarian is a lie.
Lets get something else clear – what is going on every night in Portland is NOT protests.
Even calling it riots is not quite accurate. It is an organized effort to take over and destroy federal property and to harm the federal agents defending it.
You do not bring acetylene torches to a protest – they are now trying to cut the new temporary fence to separate the CBP agents from the protestors with torches.
You do not bring commerical fireworks to a protest.
You do not bring frozen water bottles to a protest.
You do not bring lasers to a protest.
And on and on.
Further you do not do this things spontaneously.
These attacks are planned, organized, this is a criminal conspiracy – not merely to take over and destroy the courthouse, but to injure the officers defending it.
I have zero problems with the agents investigating those trying to injure them, and seeking to prosecute them to the full extent possible.
I am personally not far from supporting Trump sending in Federal Troops – not to protect the courthouse – but to Restore law and order to Portland. The constitution does not permit State and local government to govern willy nilly as they please. While it does convey great freedom in governing to state and local government, that freedom is not infinite.
This still comes down to 3-4 states, but the trend is interesting.
Trump basically goes silent for him, gives up the daily show, tweets a few inconsequential comments, does not play to his base and this happens.
https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/archive/white_house_watch_2020/white_house_watch_jul22?fbclid=IwAR2Qly-r3eXqioh-RzhqxyPc0pAXZzowNXhLddbqwgCliUuvbH2zenkN_E8
Or maybe it is because he has drawn a line in the sand in Portland and people are responding ?
I beleive I posted a long Rubin interview of Ben Shapiro – part of that covered Trump and the election. I do not 100% agree with Shapiro – but he has excellent insights.
Whether the polls at the moment are right or not is irrelevant.
The election is going to be decided by what happens between now and November.
If Biden debates Trump – Trump wins. Not just because Trump will crush Biden in a debate., but because Biden is not coming out of the basement unless he has to. As Shapiro noted Democrats have accidentally stumbled onto the correct strategy to beat Trump.
Do not give Trump anything to punch at.
Biden’s public statements are complete crap. But they are mostly squishy enough to keep Trump from getting a hook.
Trump can not tie Biden to the violent protests, or to defunding the police or to anything else of substance. The less Biden campaigns the more Trump is fighting himself.
As Shapiro notes elections are about two things – making yourself attractive, making your opponent unattractive. Trump is expert at the latter and poor at the former.
Pre Covid Trump was in the catbird seat. Biden had an abysmal primary, and if he had to actually campaign in the general he was dog meat.
While Trump had a strong (enough) economy, made the democrats look insane in impeachment, and had every reason to expect good news all the way to the election.
Then came Covid.
While the claim that Trump has botched C19 in terms of policy is crap – he has failed politically with it. Cuomo who failed New Yorkers Abysmally has come out a hero.
Reality and politics are not connected.
And the Floyd mess has made things worse.
People want calm and sanity – and the left has grasped that creating as much chaos as possible between now and November – harms Trump more than them – and they of course have the help of the media.
Trump must figure out how to restore calm and sanity.
I personally think that C19 is nearly over – deaths have plateued, and hospitalizations are down. That strongly suggests that the “spike” is primarily from increased testing.
But what I think does not matter. C19 is either burning out or it is not.
If it is not Trump is in deep trouble. If it is Democrats are in deep trouble,
One of the big problems with how the left has played this is that it is highly likely this will be a wave election – what is not known is whether it is a blue or red wave.
The next issue is the economy – if the economy is rising into the election – Trump wins.
If it is not – Trump loses. Exactly where the economy is does not matter. Just the direction it is heading. Further it is not what it is doing in November that matters is is what it does very shortly that matters.
Trump has also – at the moment lost his most effective campaign tools – his rallies, and the convention. These will be hard to replace, and they are especially important in swing states and those are effectively shutoff to him at the moment.
Biden’s VP nominee is also important.
Biden needs someone to get the far left to vote,
But he also needs someone who does not give Trump a point of attack.
I am guessing Biden delays as long as possible.
I am guessing Biden does almost nothing that he does not have to – unless he looks like he is losing. And frankly if Biden ever looks like he is losing he has already lost.
If Biden has to come out of the basement in any serious way – he has lost.
Trump had a good week. He appointed a new campaign manager, a political guy, not a social media guy, and things started changing for the better.
He’s got to keep it that way.
I do not know what matters.
As I responded to Ron.
Atleast for now – C19 changes the campaign dynamics.
Hospitalizations are down and deaths have plateued for something like 9 weeks.
That should mean this is near dead.
But infections are up (they are dropping now in TX, FL, and LA, but rising in CA)
Trump needs to be enough past Covid for the economy to heat up.
If possible he needs the obstacles to rallies to perceptially melt away.
Right now democrats and the media are drawing this out. But C19 is not making them look like they have a death wish. The status quo hurts Trump.
We have not seen actual evidence of a 2nd wave anywhere – but if we get one Trump is toast.
There are strong sugesstions that Trump will get good news from Durham soon.
But that will only matter if the election is close or Durham finds that Biden ran point for the entire XFH investigation.
The other big deal is this huge shift to mail in balloting.
That does several things.
It delays the results – we could not know the outcome for weeks.
It radically increases the chances of a contested election – and democrats are far better at fraud that Republicans.
Regardless, it also radically increases the amount of fraud there will be – from both parties.
And that is just really really really bad.
If this ends up being a fight over how many dead people voted, or how many mickey mouse votes got counted or how many signatures do not match – this will be a disaster and it could result in riots, violence and chaos that make George Floyd look like a picnic.
It does not matter which side wins.
Look at portland – you may see that accross the country if Trump does not win decisively.
And if he does not lose decisively – there are lots of people with guns and I do not know how they are going to react.
One of the problems with election fraud is the remedy is revolution – violence.
If the system can not police itself – there is nothing left but violence.
I have argued here repeatedly – it is not actual fraud that matters – it is the perception of fraud. People must beleive the results.
Trump had a strong electoral college victory in 2016 – yet the left went apeshit because the did not accept that they lost.
Look at Portland – we will see that everywhere if they do not accept the results in 2020.
Regardless, there is nothing more likely to tear this country apart than a strong perception that the election was stolen – no matter which party did so.
Only if he listens to him/her. For the complete 100 day period! When has that ever happened?
He will listen for 30-60 days, then disagree, “your fired”, return to yis “play to my base” overbearing, obnoxious attitude, turn off those that were leaning his way and then be retired by vters Nov 3rd, or whenever all the mail in ballots are counted.
I have no clue how to tell anyone what Trump should do.
For the most part I do not think the election is in human hands.
If C19 continues to be a big issue for alot longer – Trump is dead.
If it significantly resurges in the fall – Trump is dead.
If the economy is not obviously rising by the election – Trump is dead.
If Trump danced naked infront of the whitehouse – he would still win if C19 dies quickly and the economy recovers.
Well then don’t expect Trump to win because C-19 is not going away. It might slow down some, but not enough to be a secondary issue.
Why? Because too people, including Trump supporters refuse to wear a mask, are getting infected, then spreading the virus and supporting the spread. It might not go away, but if more people followed more of the safety precautions, it would not be spreading like wild fire in some southern states. We have been in phase 2 since May and the cases are stabilized, but still way higher than before.
Ron,
I do not know what C19 will do.
But I can tell you one thing for absolute certain.
Masks, Lockdowns, social distancing have nothing to do with it.
That does not mean they have zero effect.
While I am not sure of the actual magnitude of the effect – and I think it is probably very small.
The more important thing is that whatever their effect, it SOLELY prolongs C19.
C19 will not go away until sufficient portion of the people have immunity or resistance.
PERIOD.
While there have been variations in the experiences of different countries. There is no country (and no state) that can claim that policy has defeated C19.
Current estimates are that atleast 20% of New Yorkers got C19 – it is likely near the same in surrounding states. That is also about the same as the portion who got it (give or take) in every other country in the world where C19 has faded.
The states that are purportedly spiking now, do not have near 20% of the population that has been infected. We are not seeing a “2nd wave” we are seeing C19 finally get into less dense populations than it did before.
Currently the greatest PERCENT 14 day increase in new cases are HI, Guam, Conneticut. NJ, RI,
While the largest NUMBER of new cases is in FL, CA, TX, GA, AZ, but FL, TX and AZ all have declined in new cases per day by 17% or more. While CA and GA have increased by 2%.
The US is a very large country. All our “policies” have accomplished is delaying the spread accross the country – they have not stopped it. I can not get as good a data on the EU as a whole as on the US, but as best as I can tell this is behaving the same in the EU as the US,
They have about the same overall deaths/million people. They have much fewer cases – but they have far fewer tests/million people. Regardless, as best as I can tell we see the same pattern in the EU – specific countries get hit and it goes through that country fast, but it is taking much longer to go through the EU as a whole. Just like the US.
If you compare US states to countries – most states like much the same as most countries with a bell curve of sorts – the biggest exception being CA, which had C19 first, locked down the tightest and can not seem to get rid of it. Strongly supporting my thesis that all the assorted policies do is stretch it out.
Just to be clear – I am not opposed to masks etc – though I strongly suspect that while they have some effect it is SMALL.
Fundimentally the purpose of Masks, Social distancing, is NOT to kill C19 – no one has succeeded at that. It is to increase the odds that each of us as individuals manage to get into the lucky group that does not get it.
My educated guess – which is supported by large numbers of experts is that overall (varying a bit by region) only between 20-30% of people are vulnerable to C19 – most of the rest of us are already immune or highly resistant. Herd immuntiy is acheived when for one reason or another somewhere between 80-90% of the population is highly resistant.
Absent a vaccine that means when 10-20% of the population – 50-75% of those that are vulnerable, are infected.
The purpose of masks etc. is much like “the hunger games” – to get yourself into the 1/4-1/2 of the vulnerable that do not catch C19.
This is complicated by the fact that you might be immune. So everything you are doing is for nothing. Or you might be highly resistant – in which case you would have to have a really strong exposure to get infected. (or course resistant is likely a curve not a binary).
You can disagree with this – but it is an analysis that conforms to what we are seeing.
Now there is one other oddity. With this supposed “2nd wave” in the US – the death rate for new cases is running at about 1/5 what we saw previously.
I have been tracking this very carefully. Deaths accross the US have averaged 1000/day for 9 weeks – there is a 7 day cycle where is drops low and then rises again. There are some weeks a little higher than others – but there is no up or down trend. We are way way way past when a spike in new cases should have resulted in a spike of deaths.
I am also tracking hospitalizations – and those are trending DOWN – though slowly.
# infections is a leading indication – but it is also a highly unreliable one. Testing rates effect it as do other factors that have nothing to do with actual increases.
We should be careful NOT to assume that a daily increase in positive tests means a daily increase in infected people. The number of actual infections is much higher than the positive tests. The number of infections in April was much higher than the positive tests.
It is plausible that the rising number of infections is really an artifact of 6times higher testing
Another explanation for the difference between deaths/hospitalizations and infections – is the virus has mutated and is now 5 times less deadly. I think that is implausible – but not impossible.
The next possibility is that we have gotten 5 times better at treating C19.
That is pretty much crap. We ARE likely 20-30% better – but not 500% better.
And if True – that is a bad reflection on NY/NJ.
I would also note the low number of hospitalizations rejects this.
The next is that C19 kills old people and unhealthy people – and it is plausible that southern red states getting hit now have a healthier population AND/OR have done a much better job protecting old people.
The final explanation is that people just have not been hospitalized and died in the states that surged. 5 weeks ago that was plausible. It is not today.
Ultimately the most likely explanation is a combination – but the biggest factor is increased testing.
CA is a sort of special case – though testing is a factor there to.
CA’s problem is the lockdown. Because they have effectively SLOWED, but not stopped C19 it is taking forever to go through CA.
Unless you beleive that Masks etc can actually make C19 go away – of which there is no evidence. Then all of the irresponsible behavior you identify is likely RESPONSIBLE.
If 20% (approx and varying based on demographic factors) of people are getting this NI MATTER WHAT. And the evidence todate is something approximating that is the case.
Then the goal is NOT to stop it from spreading like wild fire – in fact the goal may well be to GET it to spread like wild fire. But to those it is unlikely to kill rather than those it is likely to kill. The longer you draw it out the more likely it is to get to the people it will kill.
Lets try this a different way – the spread rate of C19 is about 2.4.
It will burn out naturally when the spread rate drops below 1.0. The further below 1.0 the faster it burns out.
Lets say under optimal circumstances an N95 mask combined with SD, and partial lockdowns is 70% effective – BTW that is a high estimate. Most of what I am seeing is that in normal use (not perfect lab conditions) where people behave like people and adjust the mask constantly and touch their face and eyes, the rate is more like 20-30%,
Regardless that results in a 0.72 spread – it that was acheived and PERFECTLY sustained the virus would die probably infect only half as many people, and die in about 3 times the time it would unimpeded.
But we do not live in a perfect world – we do not have 100% mask use. we do not have 100% N95 masks – most people I see with masks have pretty crappy ones.
Put simply the odds of getting the spread rate below 1.0 by following policies is very near zero. And if you fail – the same total number of people will be infected over a longer time.
And the odds of the ones who are more likely to die INCREASE.
I expect that it will be a few years before the medical community acknowledges this.
But I think that C19 is the death knell to the “flatten the curve” approach. I strongly suspect it will be found to have increased deaths. I further suspect that in high population areas like cities – it will have proved to have been a complete mirage. The denser the population the faster a disease spreads. Though I think Cuomo screwed up with Nursing homes.
Beyond that there was nothing he could do. C19 burned through NYC hard and fast.
It is going through less dense parts of the country much slower.
That’s certainly possible, Ron.
On the other hand, over the past week, I have heard from a number of anti-Trump friends that they will be voting for him in November, unless the Dems stop supporting Marxists and rioters.
If the Democrats really believe, as they say, that Biden has got this election in the bag, then why are they encouraging violence and lawlessness? Doesn’t seem to make much sense, does it? If Trump is toast, then Dems should be calling off their BLM and Antifa goons and measuring the drapes in the Oval Office…
Who Knows what will happen Priscilla.
Its just shows how piss poor the candidates are when the choice is what we have. States are making plans for all kinds of things that I think are going to have negative impacts and a good possibility of throwing this divided country into even more turmoil. And the elected politicians are doing little to stem the divide, they( mostly the left) are doing everything possible to further the divide so it is harder for the moderate center to choose.
N.C. election board, 3 Dems to 2 Rep passed a emergency disaster edict that all counties will be required to have one early voting site for every 20,000 residents, That means counties like Wake, heavily democrat will have 38 early voting sites instead of the 20 they had for the years before. Rural counties will still have sites miles away from voters and they are the Trump voters while Wake county and all the other heavily populated are the Biden counties. That could make the difference for the N.C. electoral votes.
Then there is a factor that older people are more likely Trump supporters, while younger voters Biden Supporters. Which group will be more hesitant to go vote for fear of the virus? And in what states will the virus still be going nuts. Will it return for a second wave to Michigan and New York and subside in Arizona, Texas and Florida?
Mail in voting is going to be a disaster. Right now New York is counting mail-in votes for a June election. I very large percentage, double digit, have been disallowed due to no post mark, no signature, no date no other required information. So if that happens in November in a state like North Carolina where it might be a few votes one way or the other deciding who wins those electoral votes, Will it be Christmas before the votes are counted? Who cares if they throw out votes in CA, NY, NJ, AL, OK, those states will be so heavily in favor of one or the other it won’t matter. But in the swing states, Florida 2000 will look like a perfect election compared to possible chaos created by this one. There has been overwhelming requests for absentee ballots in N.C. already.
I think the news needs to title this election ” Countdown to Calamity”
Mail in voting threatens to result in the possibility of violence after the election.
There are just so many ways it is a bad idea.
WE are near certain to have myriads of know down drag out court battles over it.
I would by far rather have low turn out, than vote by mail.
BTW I do not expect turnout to be low.
I drove 3hrs from Southern MD to my home a few days ago.
I saw alot of Trump signs – for this early in the election season.
I saw one confederate flag.
I did not see a single Biden sign in 3hrs.
And I was less than 1hr from DC most of the time.
Yes, as Priscilla said, bizzarro!
We are inundated with political ads in N.C., both Trump and Biden, back to back, multiple times an hour, all channels. Never have seen anything like this this early, usually October before it gets like this.Bidens ads are weak because they are the same thing, “Weak leadership, dividing the country, I will bring the country back together”. Trump is pounding on the law and order, defunding the police, “Your call will be answer in 5 days” Biden support for defunding. Trump still behind due to virus in polls.
Did not watch Barr, did not even know he was testifying. Thats how much I have check out of the news.
And senate ads the same because that is shaping to be a democrat take. but that N.C. one senate seat has always been the one that the incumbent usually loses. This one was Jesse Helms for years, then since 2002 it was Elizabeth Dole (R), Kay Hagan(D) and now Tom Tillis (R), all one terms. Before Richard Burr in 2004 in the other seat, it was one term senators after Sam Ervin, rotating between Dems and Reps until Burr took seat.
So given N.C.’s history, the rotation should continue and Cunningham should win, as predicted so far with the polls.
“We are inundated with political ads in N.C.”
Interesting. I do not watch broadcast TV, I change stations when I get a political add on the radio – and I do not listen to the radio much. The only place I see political adds is on YouTube and I kill them as soon as I can no matter what.
Recently the major social media companies considered a complete moratorium on political adds before the election. I expect they will not do that – but they might and that would make me happy. I see very few political adds on Twitter and I do not use facebook.
This is just my personal experience – I am not challenging yours.
I am interested in your take on the Barr hearings. You only need to listen to a little – the tenor is pretty much the same for 5hrs. But my question to you after listening to this is how does this effect you.
I did not personally read this as a victory for Barr or republicans, But I did not read it as a victory for democrats either. My sense was that if you already beleive Trump and Barr are crooks – that you will view this as proof – the fact that Democrats asked – that is not really right, they did not really ask – they made lots of speaches condemning Barr, cut him off from answering and claimed they had proven their case. While Republicans paint this as Barr cool under fire – which he was, and letting democrats make fools of themselves.
I personally read this as Republicans did. But I did NOT read it as a republican victory,
I do not beleive this changed anyone’s mind.
I do beleive that we can not continue to have a congress that works like this.
I am not going to predict Senate elections yet – purportedly McConnell is actually losing – if that actually happens this will be a blue wave – and I do not expect that.
I would further note – countering your NC alternating thesis, that Republicans DO NOT yet control the number of Senate seats that the makeup of governors and state legislatures would predict. I listened to one political analyst who looked at the long term outcome of a Biden victory, and he claimed that republicans would take the house and Senate in 2022, and would have a 60 seat majority in the Senate by 2024. And that would be driven by two things – the republicans do very well in the house, senate and at the state level when democrats control the whitehouse, and separately – that there are still several blue Senators from Red states and a disproportionate number from purple states.
I am offering that for whatever it is worth.
There are also other complex trends going on. There is a mass migration out from Blue states. I beleive that is impacting NC. It is also purportedly one of the factors that might turn TX blue. But there is alot of very good work that shows the Migration is not distoring local political trends as much as is claimed. That those leaving NYC or CA are to a large extent Republicans or if democrats – very moderate democrats. Regardless, Blue states are becoming bluer as a result of outward migration, but red states and NOT turning pink from it.
To be clear – I am not saying that NC may not be flipping, but that it is not crystal clear. Nor is it part of some inevitable demographic trend to democrat.
The polls are relatively volatile – a week or so ago Biden was up in PA by 6, Today it is purportedly only 2. Trump won in 2016 when Biden was purportedly up by 6 on election day polls. If Biden is only up by two in PA right now – he is likely losing PA.
There is also innumerable polls saying that Trump can count on MORE and stronger support in the rust belt, that while D’s were running ahead in voter registration before Covid, they have been running behind since.
Rassmussen has Trump tied with Biden in the popular vote.
Rassmussen also claims that Trump’s support among Black voters is signficantly OVER 40%. If they are wrong by 50% – If Trump’s support among blacks is only 20% – Biden is losing. He just can not pick up enough white votes to make that loss up.
Trump is also purportedly running stronger with Hispanics than in 2016.
I would note that Rassmussen has Trump’s support among blacks CLIMBING after a brief drop in the early George Floyd Riots. Purportedly polls have BLM support TANKING after its meteoric rise with the death of Floyd.
I honestly do not know what to beleive. There are clearly multiple naratives going on.
I am guessing that Biden’s position is much weaker than the national polls are showing, because Trump and Republicans do not appear to be panicked – and Democrats do.
The Barr hearings were and effort of D’s to appeal to their far left wing. They were NOT an appeal to moderates.
I would further note that from now to the election Trump’s focus is:
Getting his base out to vote – that is a gimey.
Getting as many arround the center to vote for him as possible. That is more difficult,
but “law and order” is a message that is going to work with some.
Demoralizing and dividing Biden voters – The democratic party has a giant Fissure they need to hold together through the election. Trump continuing to paint Biden as a too far left is very effective. If Biden tacks too far to the center – he alienates the left, if he does not, he leaves the center to Trump. Unlike Biden Trump can afford to have the center refuse to vote for him – as long as they do not vote for Biden.
Biden has a harder task.
He must motivate voters – there is a huge enthusiasm gap. Biden may poll above Trump, but those numbers are meaningless unless every one of that people vote – and they are not going to. Nearly every Trump voter is.
And he must navigate a divided party. He is trying very hard to make nice with Bernie and Bernie voters. The Sanders Campaign is coordinating very closely with Biden and Sanders is winning big on numerous policy matters, AND the Sanders team is expecting important roles in a Biden administration. At the same Time Biden is speaking to moderate dem’s.
He is trying hard to back away from “Defund the police” He is trying to move to the center, to adopt slightly weaker versions of Trump’s moves – to be “Law and order” too.
The problem with this is it is incredibly inauthentic. It is very easy for Biden voters – whether those close to the center or those on the far left to decide he is lying to them.
This is also why Biden’s VP choice is so difficult. He needs a VP that will not persuade the centrists he is owned by the left, and not persuade the left he is just another milque toast moderate. This is one of the reasons there is speculation of choices like Susan Rice – as she is sufficiently ill defined as to not clearly reject the left or center. But she has the problem of being near the center of ObamaGate.
First you ask about my thoughts on Barr… Have no idea…Dont watch most hearings, just ways for congress people to make political speeches, create soundbites for political ads and get media coverage.
Second..Trump and Barr being crooks…I believe all politicians and most all New York millionaires are crooks. So yes, I believe they are crooks, right their with Pelosi, McConnell, Shumer..et al.
Third..I dont watch network news, but I do watch select network programming and my wife watches local programming during the day. That is when I see non-stop political ads
Fourth..So if migration from blue states to red states does not explain purple, what do you blame for Va becoming solid blue when it was solid red until the 80’s, N.C. now almost blue with high tax and soend liberals moving into Charlotte and Rsleigh, Texas becoming pink and Arizona going blue? All of them are destination states for people escaping high taxes, bringing with them their high spending demands.
I have policy disagreements with Barr, but he is an improvement from Sessions.
I do beleive he is a very good person for this moment.
He does not let Trump (or anyone) Ruffle him. He is restoring “the rule of law” to the DOJ.
My problem with him is that when Trump leaves he will be gone, and anything he has done can be easily undone.
The Obama DOJ/FBI was politically corrupt and weaponized to an extent far beyond anything we have seen before.
Barr can not prevent that for happening again.
I strongly suspect that the Durham results will be disappointing for Republicans.
I expect Durham will find LOTS of misconduct.
But I expect he will only prosecute serious criminal misconduct.
And all bad misconduct is NOT a crime.
As an example I do not think Durham would have prosecuted ANY of the people Mueller prosecuted – most of the offenses are process violation. and none were consequential or relevant to the investigation.
Durham/DOJ has already dropped lying prosecutions that Horowitz refered because they were inconsequential. They were things you FIRE people for not send them to jail.
Something Mueller failed to grasp.
I expect that Barr/Durham will use the same high standards in his investigation.
I suspect his “report” will be damning, but there will be few prosecutions.
I suspect he may note that some actions SHOULD be illegal – but are no currently.
That is how things should be. But when Barr is gone the DOJ/FBI will return to being a political weapon.
“I believe all politicians and most all New York millionaires are crooks. So yes, I believe they are crooks, right their with Pelosi, McConnell, Shumer..et al.”
If Trump was a crook, he would have been convicted by now.
He has been put under a microscope. If there was anything there the press, Mueller, the NY AG, … would have found it.
What you have heard on the news is the worst there likely is of Trump – spun in the most damaging way possible.
I do not like many thing about Trump.
But all conduct I do not like is not a crime.
Nor are policy differences.
Neither Trump nor Barr are “dishonest” they telegraph what they are going to do, and then they do it. I consider that honest – even if I do not like what they are doing.
Pelosi, McConnel, Shumer are dishonest. That is NOT inherently criminal or crooked.
But it is wrong.
At this moment the worst parts of our politics are coming from OUTSIDE the government.
I have said many times that ideas matter – even those only held by a few.
The ideas of post moderism are nihilist. That nihilism is infecting politics – especially democrats. Truth has always been a problem for politicians. But it is far worse today.
We are seeing politician boldly lie right to our faces, without consequence, and large portions to the population do not blink. They are not deceived, they do not care – “their truth” matters more than “the truth”.
The riots are mostly peaceful – because that is what they want to beleive,.
While the lockdown protests were violent – because that is what they want to beleive.
Both the politicians and people know what they are saying is not so.
But that does not matter – it is “their truth”.
As AOC said – “Facts do not matter if you are morally right.
I am sorry you are being bombed with political adds.
I am so very happy that in the world of the internet and streaming services I am not.
Social Media was talking about a ban on Political adds, and I thought that was wonderful.
“So if migration from blue states to red states does not explain purple”
I am not claiming to know, I am reporting what others who studied it have claimed.
“what do you blame for Va becoming solid blue when it was solid red until the 80’s”
VA and much of the south was solid democrat through to the 80’s.
The south flipped red very slowly – it has not finished yet. Much of that changes was becaus the democratic party changed.
There has been SOME migration of northern blacks back to the south – that is a political factor. There has been SOME migration of northern liberals into Tech Hubs and the like.
That has effected NC, and Austin TX,
Most of the change in VA has been due to the growth of the federal government and the expansion of what is essentially the DC metro and suburban area into VA,
Some has been because very few major cities in the US are red.
Virtually all cities are blue.
That is part of what is nuts about the Trump failure nonsense of the moment.
Blue cities are rioting because of police forces they have been responsible for 50 years.
How is that Trump or republicans fault ?
C19 has hit hardest – even now, in densely populated Blue cities – Again that is somehow Trump’s fault ?
“Texas”
Texas is complex – and I beleive is the primary cite for this – it is NOT migration driving this.
I would not TX was blue not all that long ago. TX is southern in an all together different way.
I do not think TX is ultimately going to flip.
“Arizona going blue?”
I do not know what is going to happen to AZ.
The Sienama McSally race was razor thin. I think McSally blew what should have been an easy win, and Sienema, ran an incredible campaign. My understanding is that Sienema has governed pretty far right for a Democrat. She seems to understand that Arizona is NOT Massachusetts.
Regardless, I am merely reporting what I am reading – for what it is worth.
I think that the shifting is complex. That migration from high tax states is a factor, but it is not the only factor.
I think we will see some read states turn blue or pink and some purple states turn red.
I think Republicans will own the rust belt in a couple more cycles.
I do not think TX is flipping.
I think that Republicans were starting to make inroads into minorities before Obama,
that Obama’s historic nature stalled that, and that Trump has mad major inroads into minorities.
I think that is a natural trend that will continue.
Poor imgrants are ALWAYS democrat.
As they become more affluent they become redder.
The more complex and recent trend is the bluing of the college educated.
Some of that is natural. But it is all out of proportion.
Entrepeneurs tend to be purple, creative people tend to be purple,
But buisiness people – especially small business tend to be red.
So once again Wordoress is sending my comments into the WordPress black hole. Trying againg to get this one posted. Damn crappy system!
First you ask about my thoughts on Barr… Have no idea…Dont watch most hearings, just ways for congress people to make political speeches, create soundbites for political ads and get media coverage.
Second..Trump and Barr being crooks…I believe all politicians and most all New York millionaires are crooks. So yes, I believe they are crooks, right their with Pelosi, McConnell, Shumer..et al.
Third..I dont watch network news, but I do watch select network programming and my wife watches local programming during the day. That is when I see non-stop political ads
Fourth..So if migration from blue states to red states does not explain purple, what do you blame for Va becoming solid blue when it was solid red until the 80’s, N.C. now almost blue with high tax and soend liberals moving into Charlotte and Rsleigh, Texas becoming pink and Arizona going blue? All of them are destination states for people escaping high taxes, bringing with them their high spending demands.
Several recent voter expectations polls have been done.
Not who are you voting for, but who do you expect to win.
Trump 55/39.
I watched parts of Barr’s house testimony.
While I have seen several people claim Barr did incredibly well. I though he just did OK
He did not get a chance to say very much.
Democrats made speech’s at him in the form of questions and then refused to allow him to answer.
Mostly he said very little.
Aparently he was not allowed a restroom break or lunch – and I beleive the hearing was 5hrs long.
Beyond that the democrats mostly sounded bat $h!t crazy.
It was a show trial. If the Dems were in power, it would end in Barr’s imprisonment for all of the things that they accused him of; racism, treason, murder, etc.
This is all that they do now. Impeachment was a show. CNN is merely a 24/7 Democrat propaganda show. It’s anchors are insisting that there is ino rioting in Portland, even as we see the the burning flags and cars, see the black hooded Antifa-types throwing frozen water bottles, rocks and fireworks at the LEO’s guarding the federal courthouse.
It’s a bizarro world right now. Not sure how we get out of it.
I honestly do not know.
Bret Weinstien – a liberal – very liberal, just not progressive. The teacher who was at the center of the firestorm at evergreen, one of the IDW voices – almost all of whom are Liberals – in the 60’s sense, is absolutely terified – as is much of the IDW.
He did an interview with Matt Taibbi. Taibbi compared what was going on to what he had read as a kid about soviet history – he was in Russia with his family as a young teen, and he said what he was seeing was much like early Lennin.
Weinstein Corrected him – he said WORSE, this is like Early Mao.
Weinstein noted that the vast majority of “protestors” do not know what is going on – and are not violent, they are just pretending they are “changing the world for the better”.
They have been taught that yelling and stomping your feet is “accomplishing change” – as opposed to actually doing something. These are people who need to read Jordan Peterson.
“If you want to change the world, START, by cleaning your room. If you can not manage the smallest improvements in your own life, you do not have the knowledge and skills to change other peoples lives – start ALWAYS with yourself”.
There is a small group who just want to destroy things. These people are violent, and we actually need them, but they are SUPPOSED to be part of our military. They have to be controlled and disciplined by supperiors – until tthe can be let loose against our enemies.
We also need them in the economy – they need to destroy the things that do not work.
But while that actually is a destructive process, it is not violent.
The problem is that this group has been attracted to these protests and they are having a field day. They may be political, they may not – it does not matter, they are happy destroying and they will serve any cause that allows them to blow things up.
Then there is a small cadre that is actually political. While these are mostly marxists, they are not actually the real danger. Ultimately they are dupes. They will become the middle management for the “revolution”, but they are not the leaders.
Then there are moderate democrats – and these people are the biggest problem, these are the Biden’s and Pelosi’s and Nadler’s who have essentially said – we will turn a blind eye to the violence and chaos – if that is what it takes to get rid of Trump and to return to power. They are riding the tiger. They think if they are back in power they will be able to control it.
The entire promise of electing Biden – the message he is trying to send, the one that will be responsible for electing him – if he wins, is “elect me and we can all return to normal”.
Biden may beleive that. Pelosi may beleive that. There playing games with Sanders and Sanders voters right now – trying to construct a platform that does not overly alieneate moderate dems but brings our the Sanders voters – and the rioters, and BLM.
The wink wink., nod, nod to moderates – is “we do not really mean it, we are not going to trash the economy, put the loons in control of everything”.
They even probably beleive it – but they are wrong. It is highly unlikely that if Biden is elected the Genie will go back in the bottle. If what is going on right now is successful – it will be continued. If those engaged is “peaceful protests” succeed. They will get power in the Biden administration OR they will continue the destruction until they do. Succesful blackmailers do not stop.
But there are two things missing – that we have not seen yet.
The first is the equivalent of Mao or Lenin on the left. This is more than a person, it is a figurehead leader and a cadre arround them who are after power – and merely using ideology as the tool to acheive it – Musolini, Hilter, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Chavez, and those who surround them are what we are looking for here. These are NOT inherently ideologues, these are people who are after power. These are not people like Biden and Pelosi who are trying to ride the Tiger, these are the people who control the Tiger, who the Tiger listens to, and who they give power to. These are the poeple who when they say revolt – the Tiger will revolt, and when they say STOP, the Tiger will stop.
We have not seen that arrise yet. But guaranteed, there are only two possible outcomes it the mob succeeds. The first is as above some strong leader emerges from the Mob,
The other alternative is that someone who actually is the authoritarian that the left accuses Trump of arrises. A Franco, or a Peron, or a Pinochette.
None of this is inevitable, But we ARE following the egalitarian revolution model. The model of the French revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Chinese revolution, or permutations that we have seen over history through the world.
Nor is this accidental, the cultural marxists who have taken over the academy, Or neo-post modernists, or intersectionalists or whatever label you want to put on them are very much seeking exactly what is happening now. They are not the majority. They are not the majority of democrats, They are not even the majority of the far left. But they are the font of ideas that is currently the driving force of history.
I have had “moderates” here rant that i am overly ideological or that they are not that interested in philosophy and ideas. But all the revolutions in history – whether peaceful or violent are driven by ideas, and rarely by the ideas of the majority. The enlightenment ideas that produced the explosive improvement in the human condiction over the past 500 years were NEVER shared by the majority of people, even the majority of westerners. But they were for a time the ideas that drove revolution and power.
At the time of the American revolution – less than 1/3 of the colonists wanted independence, about 1/3 were ambivalent and another 1/3 were loyal to britain. This was true throughout most of the war – but the ideas of the revolutionaries prevailed – even though they were never the majority view.
The same was true of every other revolution that was, they are all driven by ideas.
But there is ONE huge distinction between the ideas of the enlightenment – classical liberalism. That is the only revolution that to a very large extent left individuals with greater control of their own lives. Every other revolultion was either coopted by a leader and psychopants who wanted power, and used the ideas to get it, or was defeated by a tyrant who wanted power and promised to restore order as the “revolution” was bringing chaos.
We have spent 250 years pretending that the US specifically and the west generally were immune to this. One of the reasons that Hitler is much more iconic that Mao or Stalin is not that he was more evil, but that he shattered the myth that the west was immune to this.
I do not beleive we are inevitably headed on one of these directions.
But I do beleive that the odds favor that more then they ever have before in US history.
We have indoctrinated more that a generation – to be clear not all of them, not even most of them, but enough of them, to beleive that civilization – and specifically western civilization and most specifically US civilization is irredeemably morally bankrupt and that we must destroy it to rebuild, and that it is not necescary to persuade people to accept, that certainty of ones own righteousness demands imposing our values on others by force, without any thought to even listen to challenges or objections.
It does not take a majority to trigger a bloody revolution.
The next related but independent problem is the upcoming election.
There are 3 possible outcomes. An overwhelming Trump victory. That will HOPEFULLY force the democratic party to return to sanity. I may not be a big fan of the Naddlers and Pelosi’s and Schumers, and Biden’s and the current powers that be in the democratic party, but they are not proto marxists. I think they are clueless that that is where they are headed.
And I think that should things go wrong as they might well, they will be powerless to stop it.
Still they are quasi willingly riding the tiger, under the delusion they can control the tiger.
If Trump wins decisively the democratic party will have to regroup. It is likely that the extreme left will be blames and their power substantially diminished and we will be past this for now.
Unfortunately that is not the likely outcome.
The next is an overwhelming Biden victory. As Ben Shapiro notes – the medias interest in Covid will vanish the day after the election if Biden wins. C19 is about 3 times worse than a bad flu. It is a once every 50 years epidemic. It is not the end of the world, We have weathered this before, and but for Trump it would not be treated so all consuming and terrifying. Biden will not have to “solve” C19 – media interest will disappear.
But the radicals that are driving these protests and riots, and their supporters. Not the Bernie Bros – but those even more radical than them, they are going to expect Power in a Biden Administration. They are going to expect the promises that Biden has made that he has no intention of keeping will be kept. Further they will have tasted blood. They will beleive – possibly rightly that Biden’s victory was delivered by them. If they do not get what they want, they will do to Biden and democrats exactly what they have done to Trump. If a sufficient group of people beleive they have succeeded by rioting and destruction – they will continue the tactic until they get what they want – and their wants are endless. Niether Biden nor anyone in the Democratic party is capable of placating them, nor standing up to them.
If they taste what they perceive to be victory – they will have to be put down by force.
That is easier right now, than it will be later. It is also less dangerous now than later.
If as an example Biden manages to remain president for 4 years but faces continued violence from protestors on the left which he is unable to bring under control – you can expect that 2024 will lead to a GOP Sweep – and the republican candidate is going to make Trump look like a pusycat. It will be someone who promises to restore order by any means necescary. The other alternative is some Mao like figure arrises on the left – again promising to restore peach and order – but by giving the exteme left what they want
The next possible outcome of the election is uncertainty. A close election – no matter who wins will be a mess. Worse and highly likely will be an outcome that more than half the country does not trust. This is one of the reasons all this mail in voting is a horribly bad idea.
While I actually beleive it will lead to significant fraud – that is NOT what matters. All that matters is that people BELEIVE the result was a fraud. Republicans can beleive democrats engaged in all manner of mail in ballot fraud. Democrats can beleive that some foreign government mailed out millions of counterfeit ballots.
It does not matter what the truth is. All that matters is that lots of people do not trust the results. And any outcome without a very substantial victory will result in lack of Trust.
Imagine the post 2000 election chaos – an order of magnitude worse.
Further you can absolutely guarantee that if we have a massive mail in ballot – there WILL be lots of examples of fraud by both sides. Republicans will have lots of evidence of questionable signatures, of non-citizens voting, of dead people voting. Almost certainly democrats will find atleast a few examples where they can claim republicans cheated.
The threat of a foreign power engaging in mail in ballot fraud risks being appealing to those who do not want to accept the results from either side. And who knows – China or Russia might even try it. Nor do they have to tip the election. The only thing they have to accomplish is causing millions of people who do not want to accept the outcome anyway to do so. We saw a version of that in 2016. Think 10 times as bad in 2020 – no matter who appears to have won.
This is near certain today to lead to riots and violence. So far the “extreme right” has been remarkably quiet. Short of the one possibly “bugaloo” shooting the violence so far has either been exclusively blue on blue, or Self defense by the few how have been attacked on the right, or the outright murder of a few on the right such as the black Trump supporter recently.
One of the arguments that Eric Weinstein made that I had not heard before was that the actual idelogy of the modern left if not defeated will inherently lead to racism. The sarcastic video that argues that white racists and “the woke” share alot of common beleifs – not just about “politics” but about people. The “woke” are litterally arguing racial superiority, segregation and sound an awful lot like Jim Crow – except they have a different master race in mind. Regardless Weinstein made a point that the biologically and instinctively dominant means of human connection is a billion years old and is genetic. That humans did not interract outside of their tribe prior to the advent of farming 10000 years ago. That our non genetic or racist bonding is both modern and fragile and that the left is actively trying to destroy those bonds. That “intersectionality” elevates human distinctions that are either biological or that we are supposed to beleive are biological over anything else. That different BIOLOGICAL minorities are inherently supperior – because of past victim status. That race, sex, gender, sexual orientation make one group a victim and another an oppressor, and that all oppressor groups are evil, and all victim groups are morally supperior – and most importantly – that has nothing to do with individuals – you can not be white and not racist, male and not sexist, straight and not homophobic. It does not matter how you have lived your life – if you are biologically a member of oppressor groups – you are evil, you must be re-educated – and that will not work, so the process is recursive and can easily devolve to you must be exterminated.
Regardless, if as the extreme left has done – you legitimize distinctions based on purportedly immutable biological attributes – and intersectionality is very close to that, you have legitimized everyone else to make distinctions in the same way albeit instead of putting the black female transsexual at the top of the pyramid, returning to the Straight white male as the apex.
Eric Weinstein beleives that unless the extreme left is disempowered quickly regardless of the fact that white supremecay is nearly non-existant at the moment, It can arrise powerfully and quickly when our other connections are weakened. Humans making distinctions based on biology is ancient. Human bonding outside of biological distinctions is very recent in evolution and tenuous. And the cultural marxist left is deliberately destroying those bonds.
These are NOT my ideas – I am still trying to decide the extent to which I agree with them.
But they are ideas from some very smart people on both the left and the right.
It is likely that the immediate future is going to move towards more chaos not more clam.
I do not accept that we are inherently doomed. There are many possible outcomes besides Mao or Franco, or a race war. At the same time we are more likely heading to worse rather than better – atleast in the short term.
Here is a very interesting analysis of the current position of the Voters that won the 2016 Election for Trump – these are people who voted for Obama in 2012 and Voted for Trump is 2016.
Though most of the points I expected – A few I did not.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/opinions/swing-voters-midwest-trump-support-thau/index.html