Skip to content

My 2016 Election Nightmare

October 31, 2016

I had the craziest dream — one of those surrealistic nightmares that seem so improbably real while you’re dreaming them. You know the kind: they’re filled with plausible-but-absurd details that alarm and bewilder you — like a tyrannical math teacher demanding that you find the square root of Norway or flunk the course. You shudder and stammer while your brain shuts down. Then you wake up with a start and feel immeasurably relieved. You shake your head and wonder how something so palpably ridiculous could have riddled your mind with terror.

Let me tell you about my nightmare. I dreamed that the two major parties had nominated Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton for the presidency. Can you believe it? A corrupt billionaire con-artist battling it out with a corrupt establishment insider — two grasping, ruthless, vindictive souls engaged in mortal combat for the ultimate prize in American politics, an office once held by the likes of Washington, Lincoln and the Roosevelts.

Trump was the ultimate scary clown, a minor-league Mussolini who strutted and scowled with upraised chin while spewing sound bite after sound bite of vitriolic, fact-free promises and threats. His equally scary hard-core fans loved his candor and his comical outrageousness; he provided solid entertainment value in an age that prized entertainment above virtue, intelligence or character. Poor Jeb Bush never stood a chance.

Here’s where it got really frightening, though. Trump would utter the most outlandishly offensive statements… he’d find himself ensnared in one mini-scandal after another… stumbles that would have killed the campaign of any mortal candidate. But Trump became The Thing That Wouldn’t Die. Every time you thought his campaign couldn’t possibly recover from the latest disaster — that surely the accusations of a dozen sexually harassed women would bring him down — he’d raise himself up and keep lumbering toward his goal like some radioactive beast from a 1950s sci-fi film.

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton pretended to take the high road. Her bright blue eyes blazing with intelligence and conviction, she insisted she’d fight for the middle class. She’d treat Muslim refugees and undocumented immigrants with classic American generosity of spirit. She’d make us proud to have elected the first woman president.

But here’s the scary part: the noble-browed Democrat secretly seethed with rage. Her temper tantrums were legendary. She comported herself faultlessly in public, yet the unwholesome whiff of chicanery clung to her like stale body odor. The Clinton Foundation and its mysteries. Those too-cozy Wall Street connections. Intimations of meddling to sabotage Bernie Sanders’ campaign. The revelation that she came to the televised debates a little too well-prepared, thanks to having been slipped a few key questions in advance by none other than the chairwoman of the DNC. And of course, those “damn e-mails.”

Hillary Clinton was the premier Jekyll-Hyde personality of American politics — or at least a female Eddie Haskell: gracious and unflappable on the surface, devious and malicious when nobody was looking. One could imagine her cackling like the Wicked Witch of the West in her private chambers.

Election Day was drawing near (we could count the days) and the scandals kept mounting on both sides. Trump was still standing, incredibly. Clinton was bruised but still clinging to a thin lead. And here was the thumping heart of my nightmare: we actually had no choice but to elect one of these reprobates to the highest office in the land.

If Trump won, we’d essentially become a rogue nation, led by a borderline psychopath… a land swarming with angry whites, angry blacks, and angry moderates who couldn’t understand how the “greatest nation in history” could elect such a malevolent clown to office.

If Hillary won, we’d simply continue down the inevitable path to oligarchy — and we’d still be a land swarming with angry whites, angry blacks and terminally frustrated moderates. The terror was starting to grab me and twist me in its grip. Trump? God help us! Hillary? Why not just let Goldman Sachs run the country? What to do… what to do?

I woke up, looked around, and breathed a long sigh of relief. It was 1959, Eisenhower was president, and all was right with the world. I could hear the birds singing outside my window and smell my mother’s brownies baking in the oven. A soft golden light filled the room. I was young and content.

Then the alarm went off and I woke up for real, shortly before the election of 2016. Reality — what a nightmare!

 

Rick Bayan is founder-editor of The New Moderate.

 

Advertisements
432 Comments leave one →
  1. October 31, 2016 11:59 pm

    I love this!! Excellent writing!

  2. Anonymous permalink
    November 1, 2016 4:21 am

    I just woke up from the exact same nightmare. God help us!

    • November 1, 2016 3:11 pm

      Yes, I have a feeling that millions of Americans will be having the same nightmare.

  3. Rob Anderson permalink
    November 1, 2016 12:11 pm

    “What to do?!” was nominate Bernie Sanders for the presidency. Many of the people supporting Trump started off supporting Bernie (who was getting a lot of cross-over from disaffected Republicans). Moreover, Bernie offered solid programmatic ideas about how to reform this country. You might not have agreed with him, but you couldn’t deny he had a plan. It certainly would have been a marked contrast to Mr. “We Will Build a Great Wall.” But we didn’t.

    Americans used to have a distinct talent for choosing the right leader at the most difficult times in our history. In 1860 many of us chose Abraham Lincoln, who turned out to be indispensable in leading us through the Civil War. Then in 1932, at the height of the Great Depression, we chose Franklin D. Roosevelt. When war came, we smartly stayed with him, and he didn’t let us down. I believe that Bernie Sanders was the next iteration of that type of leadership, but this time we blew it.

    I am now convinced that the cost of this monumental failure will be nothing short of a revolution – probably from the “alt-right” – followed by a monstrous second Civil War. It will be terrible, but necessary in lieu of a good or great leader to guide us through electoral and economic reform. And Nothing else will serve justice. We have many sins in this country: the drug war, our refusal to enact decent single payer health care, our failure to do something about homelessness, the uncivilized inequality of our socio-economic milieu. All of these sins are violent in nature, costing tens of thousands of people their lives, and immiserating the lives of millions more.

    To quote John Brown, “I am now convinced that this nation’s sins will not be purged away except by blood.”

    • November 1, 2016 3:09 pm

      Well said, my friend. Of course I don’t look forward to a new civil war, although I do think we’ll be seeing at least sporadic violence during the next administration (no matter who wins). Bernie was screwed out of the nomination by Hillary’s team, but I’m not sure he would have been the answer. You know that his proposals would be continually blocked by Congress. A decent, “relatable” person like Joe Biden probably would have been able to accomplish more (including the ability to unite Democrats and lower-middle class Trump Republicans). His son’s brain tumor probably changed the course of our history.

  4. dduck12 permalink
    November 1, 2016 12:40 pm

    Excellent, Rick. The truth (or 1/2) really annoys diehards on both sides; thanks for trying to drive sorta down the middle in this landmine and feces strewn election.

    • November 1, 2016 3:01 pm

      Thanks for the support, dduck. I wasn’t going to endorse a candidate, and I found plenty to criticize on both sides. (It’s the worst choice in my memory.) I took some heat at The Moderate Voice (based on their readership, I’d say it’s more like the “Moderately Leftist Voice”). That’s not to say I find both candidates equally bad; Hillary isn’t dangerous, just crooked.

      • dduck12 permalink
        November 1, 2016 5:46 pm

        TMV has an oversupply of narrow minded liberals, a few moderate liberals, and a couple b—-breakers like me that try to keep them a little (very) little honest and fair.

      • November 1, 2016 6:39 pm

        Good for you, duck! Keep them centered.

      • November 1, 2016 6:42 pm

        Many years ago I read the Moderate Voice and I commented a number of times. I could put up with the issue that it was not really moderate, but really a liberal bastion of want-a-be moderates. But what I could not accept was the way anyone that made an actual moderate comment was put down, chastised and was made to look like a fool.

        I may be a fool, but at least here, those that comment stay on message and usually address the issues being discussed. They leave the personal stuff off the table. And those that do get personal usually find no support (like all bullies), so they quickly move on to other sites, (maybe the MV where there is much support for their form of “debate”).

        Rick, thanks for keeping it a good place for actual moderates (and fools like me) to comment. And to demonstrate just how foolhardy I am, I went to early voting and followed through with my plan and voted for Johnson. (The line was too long to hold my nose that long without passing out if I were to vote for one of the stenches running on the major party tickets.)

        But I must comment on one thing you say. That is the obstructionist GOP. Unless Schumer changes to rules like Liar Reid (Romney paid no taxes) and makes it a simple majority for judges, the GOP should do what is allowed and require Clinton to appoint moderate judges that will support the constitution and not legislate from the bench. Had it not been for a liberal ruling that was legislating healthcare, we would not have Obamacare and the problems it is causing today. (When it is stated “tax” in the wording of a bill, then it is a tax. It is not a penalty as the court “interpreted”. Legislating V interpreting) There are times the court has to determine what they thought the legislation meant and rule on that, but when wording is clearly stated, then the court is legislating and not ruling. It is in the rights of the minority in the senate to block any judge that is another Sotomayor or Kagan. And just think Hillary has mentioned Obama a couple times as a possible judge. Gag!

        As for the house e-mail investigation, I would hope this time it is referred to a grand jury and then a final ruling can come from them. If they find nothing, then the house will have to live with that decision or risk losing control if they go on a wild goose hunt. If they do find something , then we are in for a whole different set of circumstances. She will be a sitting president facing grand jury charges, How will that play out?

        Just think of the articles you can write on that one.

  5. November 1, 2016 12:45 pm

    This isn’t even a close call: if Trump is elected it will harm the nation irreparably, lowering the standards of acceptability for the office, and cast a dour shadow on our reputation as a sane reliable international partner and ally.

    If Clinton is elected the negativity you describe will be the continuation of the status quo oligarchy – which of course won’t change at all for the better under Trump. And probably get worse.

    And your descriptions of the temperaments and character of the two “grasping, ruthless, vindictive” candidates paints a far more dangerous Trump: a minor-league Mussolini spewing sound bites of vitriolic, fact-free promises and threats – many taken as calls to violence from hate-mongering groups that have attached themselves to his candidacy, of a man you say is a borderline psychopath whose election would essentially make us a rogue nation.

    You describe Hillary’s main temperamental disqualification, aside from those you listed as shared by both above, as her legendary temper tantrums. Keep in mind that’s a common personality trait shared by numerous political leaders: Margaret Thatcher was also well known for her Dr. Jeckle Mz Hyde personality of public charm and private temper tantrums; John McCain was recently charged with having an uncontrolled temper when away from the cameras; and Lyndon Johnson had a peevish bad temper, regularly unleashed at friend, family and foe. It certainly isn’t a legitimate disqualification for office.

    Trump has already lowered/destroyed acceptable limits of civility and propriety in campaign discourse. Imagine the language he’ll spew from the White House. If Hillary is elected not much will change for the worse over the next four years. If Trump is elected the US will be permanently scarred with shame and ineptitude, under a president who is a self-indulgent pathological liar and conman.

    I’m surprised and disappointed to see you fense sitting like this.

    • November 1, 2016 2:48 pm

      Jay: I had a feeling I’d be accused of “false equivalence” because I criticized both nominees. For the record, I don’t find them equally reprehensible. I won’t be dithering in the voting booth, but I *will* be holding my nose. Hillary might not be quite as reprehensible as Trump, but (to me, at least) she still reeks of deceit and high-level corruption. I suppose I’m still biased against her for actively campaigning against Congressional recognition of the Armenian genocide. But I could add a dozen more items to the list. Will I vote for her? Yes, just to keep Trump from seizing power. (But of course, the GOP and wingnuts will make life miserable for us even if Trump loses.)

  6. November 1, 2016 1:19 pm

    Guess what, your nightmare will be the gift that keeps on giving. Just think of all the articles you can write once Clinton is elected and the House begins its 4 year crusade to degrade her and anything she wants to do. I believe it was Mike Lee from Utah that said they already had enough information to hold hearing for more than two years.

  7. dduck12 permalink
    November 1, 2016 6:56 pm

    Ron P, I miss you over at the fake “moderate’ site.

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 1, 2016 6:58 pm

      “But what I could not accept was the way anyone that made an actual moderate comment was put down, chastised and was made to look like a fool.”
      Still the same, probably worse.

      • November 1, 2016 7:04 pm

        Well the only thing I can add to that is there are sites of the right that do the same and I avoid them also.

        Rick does a good job keeping us in line. Not to say there are not a few times it does get personal, but not many. And sometimes I have to read what I write a few times before posting to make sure its on script myself.

      • November 2, 2016 1:16 pm

        Ron: I do what I can to keep the peace here (thanks for acknowledging my efforts), but I’ve been derelict in my duties once the number of comments climbs into the hundreds. I noticed that Roby and Pat Riot came to blows last month, but by the time I saw their comments it was already water under the bridge. I should take the time to go back and see for myself how it turned out in the end — whether they made their peace or ended up as sworn enemies. I’d hate to lose either of them, because they both add valuable insights here.

    • November 1, 2016 7:01 pm

      I thought I recognized you here. Nice to find your here and making some good comments that people will consider.

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 2, 2016 2:23 pm

      Sleaze to sleaze (from a New Yorker).

      • November 2, 2016 6:15 pm

        As an ex-born & raised New Yorker who was there when Hillary was Senator, I don’t have a negative impression of her time in office. Overall I thought she did a decent job for a freshman Senator; and that she performed admirably and patriotically in the aftermath of 9/11- an opinion shared by NYC Firemen and other 1st Responders I’ve talked to, who said she came through for them to pass Health Care legislation, under jeopardy in congress.

        During my time in the the Big Apple I knew and worked with people who served in three Mayorial Administrations. Most of them saw Hillary as a Moderate operative, tilted leftward on social issues, rightward on business and economics. Back then, none of the insiders were calling her crooked or corrupt – only an opportunist politician like all the rest. I think the same can be said of her term as Sec of State: overall she did a decent job, and the criticisms of her performance are overly negative, laced with the same kind of distorted Partisan hatred leveled vitriolically at Obama these past eight years.

        I don’t see her as a paragon of virtue, or the Great Feminine Hope – she wasn’t my first, or second, or even third preference – but I think she’ll be an adequate president, moderate overall, and a decent caretaker of the government who will not make waves over the next four years: the altRigth will do all that splashing. But she surely and certainly is the saner, safer choice to steward the U.S. then the irrational contentious fool running against her.

  8. dduck12 permalink
    November 2, 2016 6:38 pm

    Agree, Jay.

  9. Camper permalink
    November 2, 2016 8:57 pm

    I found the New Moderate this spring and have enjoyed the posts, as well as the comments. It is refreshing to hear people discuss this election, without name calling. There really are moderate people like me!
    I hope we survive the next four years and someone steps forward to guide this country into the future. I personally voted for Evan, hoping he can build momentum going forward. He may not be the answer, but neither were 15 people the republican party trotted out in the primary. The democrats were just as bad, considering Hillary was the youngest legitimate choice.
    My final thought is we need to hope and pray for peace. Neither of the candidates appear to feel the same.

    • November 3, 2016 12:20 am

      “I hope we survive the next four years and someone steps forward to guide this country into the future”.

      After watching the news today and hearing “sources close to the investigation” of not only the e-mail issue, but also the Clinton Foundation pay-to-play activities, those sources said an “Indictment is likely” in the near future. The news “rumors” say there is very damning information that has been uncovered in the NY, LA, DC and Little Rock FBI offices concerning the foundation and it will be very difficult for Loretta Lynch to block an indictment from happening. IF THIS IS TRUE and If it does happen and this goes to trial then we can look forward to:
      1. House investigation after investigation
      2. House beginning impeachment proceedings if illegal activity is proven
      3. House possibly approving the impeachment
      4. The senate receiving the articles of impeachment and then holding a trial which will not gather the 2/3rd majority needed to pass.

      And then we will be in another election cycle, the country will be further in debt, no tax reform, no economic reforms, no infrastructure revitalization, no……..(fill in the blank)

      So we will survive these four years, but how much damage will occur that may impact future years? No one knows and whoever gets elected in 2020 most likely will be blamed for the negative downturns that will begin late in Clinton’s administration that is generated by the 2016 and 2018 congresses along with Clinton’s illegal activities being investigated. The inactivity from 2017 to 2021 will not really show up until late in her term in office. We will just have to live that long to see what happens next.

      • November 3, 2016 9:49 am

        You’re full of bright optimism this morning.
        Those rumors of Clinton Foundations violations are Tin Hat accusations that will have no legal ramifications. Just substitute ‘Red Cross’ or ‘Salvation Army’ as substitute names and you will realize the ludrucrious nature of the charges: Clinton Play For Pay Donations to Red Cross!

        If Hillary reciprocated political favors for donations to a non profit charity, those donations didn’t financially benefit the Clintons; it benefited the disadvantaged. What charges can be leveled at her for that?

      • November 3, 2016 12:36 pm

        Well Jay, you can continue to look at the clinton’s through rose colored glasses and I will continue to look at them through green sun glasses. Yours will continue to highlight the positives and dim the negatives, while mine will continue to dim the glow that others see in her as you do. And I suspect there are few that don’t wear glasses at all and see her for what she really is.

        As I said “The news “rumors” say there is very damning information”. The key word was “rumors”. Now if nothing comes of these “rumors”, then you can discard my steps 2-4. But even without “damning information”, I suspect Trey Gowdy and his minions will continue the onslaught against her that will make it very hard for her to accomplish much.

      • dduck12 permalink
        November 3, 2016 4:40 pm

        Gloomy indeed, RP. I hope it is not that bad, for the country’s sake. since she will be in for four years- at least. My opinion is that many foundations are dirty including the Clinton’s and I hope they clean them up (but after I set mine up).

      • November 3, 2016 6:20 pm

        dduck..There are some people that look at life and see the glass 1/2 full, some 1/2 empty. I usually am on the side of being 1/2 full until it comes to politics. In my mind, most all politicians begin with a 1/2 a glass of something and then over the years it spills out leaving much less left in the glass. So no matter what the outcome of any investigation, I do not believe anything will get done in a Clinton administration without both a senate and house of the same party. And when one looks back on all the accusations and innuendo about the Clintons there is a lot of skeletons in the closet, but there has not been enough proof to bring any indictments on anything. How many crooks have had the same history. Remember Al Capone was never indicted for anything people knew he was guilty of, it was taxes that brought him down.

        And to further support my thoughts, even though the states have been able to redistrict to the point that most house seats are safe, there are a handful of “moderates” on the GOP side that are looking at defeat. This will reduce the GOP majority, but will also reduce the support for Ryan as speaker and there will be more support on the GOP side for someone much farther right than Ryan. This also galvanizes the hate in the governing GOP leadership for Clinton and the house will take the lead from McConnell to try to make her a one term president, much like what failed for McConnell.

        I see little in benefit of this to the country . Except for split governance and no one being able to screw up like they did with the ACA when Obama had control of everything. But we need more than road blocks with the problems we face. Someone needs to talk and come to consensus as to what we can accomplish.

  10. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 3, 2016 12:15 am

    A rain delay with a tie game 7? Now if that isn’t clearly the media conglomerate rigging the weather to sell more advertising.

    Rick: I can’t speak for Pat or GW, but it seems to me that both are willing, in order to keep the peace, to pull away to some degree, either with time or with tampering down the language. So while neither are going to change who they are, they seem to have found ways to disengage enough if either think things are getting too heated.

  11. dduck12 permalink
    November 3, 2016 6:42 pm

    RP. I happen to detest HC personally, but I think she is smarter than BO who I think is a well meaning schmuck, although I like him. IMHO, Machiavelli would be proud of HC, but not her stupid, self- hurting mistakes. I’m 99% sure, just as I was about Dewey, that HC is in and will cut many deals, some to enrich the Clintons, and some to avoid too much gridlock in the country. Of course, much depends on the composition of Congress and the little grey cells in the heads of the Rep leadership (I hope), to move the ball and start improving the Rep party; the old white guys like me are dying.

    • November 3, 2016 11:29 pm

      Hope you are correct about getting something done as long as it is “moderate” in nature and not some radical remaking of programs that cost an arm and leg and only duplicate ineffective programs that already exist. Seems like we can only get screwed when anything big occurs.

      I do find it very interesting that we are told over and over that the GOP is the party that is going to improve the business climate, improve the economy, reduce taxes and increase profits..etc..etc. And then this last week we have seen a decline in the stock market. The analyst have said that this is due to the market factoring in a HC victory and now with the latest batch of negative information coming out about her and the rise in DT in the polls, the market is normalizing to the possibility of his victory.

      Now if she is bad for business and he is good for business, this seems counterintuitive to me. Seems like it should be going up if he is rising in the polls.

      • dduck12 permalink
        November 4, 2016 12:01 pm

        Ignore market, it is less predictable than Trump.

  12. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 4, 2016 1:29 am

    Jay: I accept your challenge. Given: an alternate scenario where there is no Clinton Foundation, but only the Red Cross, and also given, but for interactions with the Clintons which we will look at, let us assume all work the Red Cross does is good and noble. So Bill starts “volunteering” for the Red Cross, not taking a dime of salary, and he does fund raising for them, raising millions of dollars, the Red Cross in turn, pays all his travel expenses, first class flights, 5 star hotels, lavish meals, rental cars, $5,000 dollar a night massage therapists. Why not pay, even if it is a bit padded as far as a T/E expense report? He is so successful bringing in donations. But wait, there’s more, while not taking a salary themselves, they can still hand out 6 figure income jobs at the Red Cross to their friends. But wait…there’s more. The Clintons can have Red Cross relieve work contracts go to their friends too, like in Haiti or wherever there is a disaster and an area needs new stuff. Who cares if the contractors may not be competitively bidding, if they are overpaid, not a problem, as long as the Red Cross doesn’t chase off their Golden Goose, and that Golden Goose brings in multiple millions, the Red Cross will dole out money to whomever the Golden Goose dictates. Are the donors expecting anything in return for their money that gives the Clintons so much power, influence and an expense free, lavish lifestyle while not having to report it as income? Hard to say, when so much information is deleted on private servers, acid washed, destroyed computers, lying, stalling, and having other agencies like the DOJ, some media outlets, and who knows how many other hired friends, obstructing and running interference for them.

    Oh I don’t know, maybe Bill stayed at motel sixes and ate peanut butter sandwiches. But it certainly is possible to obtain personal gain without getting an actual paycheck. You know it seems even though the Donald should have been smart enough to shift gears and act better during the general election, he has proven that he simply isn’t capable of hiding his lack of emotional control, impulsive, spoiled, and not very knowledgeable self. So too, after the Clintons get back into the White House, they will not be able to control themselves either, new scandals will emerge, no doubt some totally fabricated and false, but others that will be true, because the Clintons are who they are, and they are going to do what they do.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 4, 2016 6:02 am

      Hi Mike, I’m back in the US from my Israel trip. I cannot disagree with a word you wrote. A very balanced take on these two.

      I will add one thing though which is that the Clintons seem to have donated much more of their own money than they could have received back in perks and various cheats. I hold that that Clintons set out to do good and have done good but also are addicted to power and its perks and are impervius/oblivious to the appearances, let alone the actual implications and consequences, of their love of living in grey areas. They sure as hell should have known better than to do the things they do and if we get trump as POTUS then they should take a good bit of blame on themselves. But, they won’t, I’m 100% sure of that.

      I’m hoping in a terror-stricken way that the Clintons do get back into the WH. Should that not happen, then I will be hoping they get all the consequences they deserve, as well as hemorrhoids. The Dem-party process has certainly been exposed as undemocratic and riddled with abuses of power, although that has been done to a great extent by an Assange/Putin collaboration of theft of private mail, without any corresponding theft and exposure of the GOP side. Which many GOP voters are loving.

      Big Giant meteor, please.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 4, 2016 7:05 am

        Welcome back GW! I hope you enjoyed your trip. I commented on a different blog that whomever wins will be effectively IMO a lame-duck prior to inauguration. With so many already detesting either one, which one, in four years, is going to be liked more than now? I think it is a virtual guarantee that the winner will be despised even more, 4 years from now than they are now, hard to imagine, but I think it will be so. Perhaps this will be like the 1852 election of Franklin Pierce…I remember it so well, NOT…but it is reported that neither major party, Whig or Democrat could come up with a candidate liked by many, so they ended up running someone that was the “lessor disliked” a Pro-Slavery Northerner, Franklin Pierce who, four years later did not even make it out of his own party’s “primary” (although I don’t think they had a primary in the same way we do today) despite being the sitting president. Pierce was considered by many of his time to not have won the general election as much as his opponent lost the general.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 4, 2016 7:23 am

        “…donated much more of their own money..” I should have left for work so I’m going fast without double checking my facts. The Clintons have the only released tax returns that I found gave a full 10% of their income to charity, not Bernie, not Cruz, or other primary candidates. I forget if they made 50 million or 5 million, but roughly a 10th of that went to the Clinton Foundation an there was virtually no other reported donations by the Clintons, a couple thousand on something else. I’m pretty sure even I could rack up over $500,000 in a year if I spent the year travelling, but I might have a hard time spending 5 million in one year on travel expenses, if they did, that would be quite a feat.

    • November 4, 2016 1:33 pm

      Straw Men & Red Herrings

      I spent HOURS & HOURS looking into the Clinton Foundation and the charges against it, here’s what my deep digging revealed:

      Before the sustained pyrahanna attacks against it by Clinton enemies it was one of the “great humanitarian charities of our generation.”

      That’s a quote from Daniel Borochoff, Founder and President of Charity Watch, a premier charity watchdog who specializes in ferreting out corruption and malfeasance.

      Borochoff also says the Clinton Foundation is a top-tier institution in the philanthropic world, and that foreign fundraising criticisms made about the organization could be applied to any number of international charities:

      “We can only judge organizations based on their own financial disclosures, corporate governance, and level of transparency,” Borochoff told Fortune in an interview. “And by those accounts, the Clinton Foundation has a strong record. They reveal much more information about themselves than many other charities.”

      Charity Watch gave the Clinton Foundation an “A” rating (“A-” to the Red Cross). Also about 89 percent of the Clinton Foundation budget is spent on programming (or “charity”), higher than the 75 percent considered the industry standard.

      Red Cross

      I don’t know what compensation is at the Red Cross now, but in 2010, top executive compensation looked like this:

      * Executive director Gail McGovern made $561,210
      * EVP for biomedical services James Hrouda made $621,779
      * Biomedical services president Shaun Gilmore made $573,933
      *
      In general, execs at the major charities make salaries that put them in the top 1%. At the Clinton Foundation neither Bill nor Hillary draw a salary.

      http://www.businessinsider.com/executive-compensation-at-the-red-cross-2012-11

      TRAVEL:
      Let’s put those ‘high on the hog’ travel and accommodation criticisms in proper perspective. As a former U.S. President, Bill Clinton has formable security and other requirements that require the need to travel by charter or first class. Same for hotel accommodations – he’s not going to stay at a Motel-6.

      Bill’s main function for the Foundation is fundraiser – and the people he approaches in that capacity aren’t meeting him at Arby’s for lunch. His jet-set smoozing is the reason million dollar donations have accrued to the Foundation. The money he spends to get those donations are a low expense percentage of the budget, much lower than other charities spend: the Red Cross spent three times as much of its budget raising money in the same time frame.

      Criticisms of nepotism, that the Clintons hired friends at high salaries, are also nonsensical red herrings. Overall, with one exception, the people they hired were qualified and competent, at pay levels standard for the work. And that brings up the Scarlet Herring, of Haiti, where the criticisms of the Foundation from the right as a corrupt enterprise have been unrelenting. First, to put it in perspective, the initial Haiti relief effort was a duel project, of the Clinton Foundation and the Bush Foundation. Why no criticism of the Bush involvement from the Right? And Haiti turned out to be a relief disaster for numerous other humanitarian efforts, because of Haitian corruption and ineptitude and lack of infrastructure. Here’s an example from a Pro Publica article about our Red Cross pals, who received an outpouring of donations after the quake of nearly half a billion dollars.

      “The group has publicly celebrated its work. But in fact, the Red Cross has repeatedly failed on the ground in Haiti. Confidential memos, emails from worried top officers, and accounts of a dozen frustrated and disappointed insiders show the charity has broken promises, squandered donations, and made dubious claims of success.
      The Red Cross says it has provided homes to more than 130,000 people. But the actual number of permanent homes the group has built in all of Haiti: six.”

      You starting to see the focused big picture? Through repetition the altRight and fellow travelers of ideological deceit have graffitied the Clinton Foundation with distorted accusations to discredit its reputation. Lies and half truths repeated ad-infinitum harden into the kind of ideological cement only a pick-axe will crack. In our age of instantaneous mass communication rumors and lies metastasize with viral intensity and speed, and there is no effective way to filter fact from falsehood in our rumor-mongering communication matrix. The majority of Americans will follow ideological Pied Pipers to their graves, believing accusation as fact, misinformation as gospel.

      Sadly, as Lincoln said, ‘you can fool some of the people all of the time,’ and that percentage seems to be rising.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 4, 2016 2:42 pm

        Nice post Jay, nice digging and processing, thanks for the reality check.

        I believe I am correct in saying that much of the money the Clintons directed from speaking fees to the foundation does not even show up as charity because it was donated directly to the foundation. I believe that is many tens of millions of dollars that they could have kept for themselves but gave to the foundation charity efforts instead.

        On the Clintons the Alt-right has formed a partnership with the alt-left, which by my definition are the bernie of bust assange worshipers. They both feed at the same trough and have the same inability to discern BS and the same desire to turn everything upside down with conspiracy theories. You can hardly tell the difference and they both inflate the sins of the Clintons for their own purposes.

      • November 4, 2016 6:16 pm

        Jay, good information. But correct me if I am wrong in this statement. I don’t think I have said that the Clintons are guilty of anything concerning their charity. I could have said something about the e-mails as I still believe had anyone in the private sector up through and including top generals in the military had done the same thing she did they would have at least lost their jobs and could have been court martialed or tried in a court for breaking the law.

        What I have said and will continue to say is i believe she will be weakened from day one of her administration since the GOP will begin investigation after investigation based on bits and pieces of information that comes out over a extended period of time. GOP leaders will avoid meeting with her for fear of “giving in” to the enemy. Should Paul Ryan meet with her and they come out stating they are going to work for any legislation, the right will be all over Ryan like flies on bull poop on a hot day. They will find a way to remove him from leadership so anyone that attempts to do something good for the country where she is involved will know in advance that their career is hinging on blocking anything she tries to do.

        They will have a path to one term for her mapped out shortly after she is elected and the clinton foundation will be one of the main objects of an investigation. There are few that will do what you have done in looking into that charity. Most Americans will swallow the cool-aide being fed to them by the media. The liberals will say it is a witch hunt and the conservatives will say she should be impeached. Neither will know the facts in any of the cases that she is going to be investigated for. If we get these two candidates as the best and brightest American individuals the parties can offer, then we have already witnessed how ignorant the public is when supporting politicians.

        (For clarification I use ignorant as having the ability to learn and failing to do so compared to stupidity that restricts ones ability to learn.)

      • November 4, 2016 7:38 pm

        Ron and Wazoo – re emails:

        There are numerous FBI interviews with Hillary’s staff that paint a consistent picture of her as tech-deficient, someone harried by and disinterested in technology, who was even vexed by desktop computer usage.

        Here’s an article that that describes the email controversy based on those interviews and others that may put it in a different perspective for you:

        http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/hillary-clinton-emails-2016-server-state-department-fbi-214307

        I agree that she was lazy and negligent and technologically ignorant of the dangers, but also reasonably paranoid in wanting to separate her communication flow from the State Department. She had spent 8 years in a porous ‘leaky faucet’ presidential bureaucracy and probably assumed insulating the emails through a private server was a smart move.

        That turned out to be a bad mistake of judgement, and yes, if some other government official had made a similar mistake they would have been demoted or fired – but not prosecuted.

        Hillary’s continuing problem, however, is that she may have lied about the erasure of some of those emails under oath. Though she had a legal right to destroy her personal emails, lying about it under oath was illegal. Therein lies the rub.

      • November 5, 2016 12:14 am

        Jay I apologize for not being able to communicate what I am really trying to say. I understand she was tech deficient. What over the hill senior citizen is not tech deficient? I certainly am and I have used PC’s of some sort since the mid 80’s. I understand that she used different devices due to leaks and other issues with using state department systems. I understand none of this is illegal to this point. And I understand that most likely there will be nothing found in any FBI investigation.

        But that does not negate the GOP controlled house from going off in a tangent to “get to the truth” as Utah Rep Chaffetz stated when interviewed concerning the investigations by the FBI and the possibility they will not find anything. He went on the say they have two years worth of information to investigate. Does anyone really think they will bury that info?

        So my point is the house will be tied up investigating while she is proposing legislation. The Senate may support her proposed legislation (if the dems control it), but the house has to consider it. All legislation with revenue and expenditures have to originate in the House. With all the investigations going on, when will they have time to consider anything?

        And Ryan, who most likely will survive a challenge from the Freedom Caucus since the house will be minus a number of moderate republicans, can not support most of her proposals or he will most likely face additional pressure to resign his position, leaving a much more hard line GOP leader that will further block her agenda. The Freedom Caucus is not known for being “moderate”.

        So the FBI investigations and the outcome of those mean nothing. Once she is president, she also can not be indicted (previous supreme court decision on another case years ago). And once the house spends two-three years investigating, she will not be impeached either. But she will be ineffective due to the e-mail issue creating the environment the GOP needs to make it so.

        All the information you have provided supports the fact she is not criminally liable for anything significant. But that means nothing with the political environment we are in today.

  13. November 4, 2016 6:56 pm

    Oh brother, the Clinton white-washing tag team is back!

    Granted, too many Never-Hillary righties will believe negative press about the Clintons without fact-checking, or without an open mind, or without much of a mind at all! Yes, unfortunately, that is occurring, but we all know there’s no shortage of “hearing what they want to hear” on both the left and the right, and not just at the fringes.

    But there are more Never-Hillary legions than just the “Alt-Right” and “Alt-Left”. For example, there are “barely political at all” mothers who liked the idea of a woman POTUS who cringe when Hillary speaks. Sleazy is what sleazy does, but that might depend on what the definition of “is” is, haha. Some phoniness can’t be hidden or dressed up. It comes across. And in this age of video clips, there are too many contradictions and flip-flops for many to believe the façade. To many it is sickening.

    Using the terms “Alt-Right” and “Alt-Left” is more unhelpful labeling, IMHO, as if there are the reasonable people, and then everyone else is an extremist loon. Obviously, I don’t agree with all the labeling going on. Not only do I think it’s fundamentally wrong, I think the labeling is helping to unravel our society. But this is just an opinion, and people are entitled to their opinion.

    On the other hand, there’s Trump. Oh, crap.

    • November 4, 2016 7:43 pm

      Not white-washing: a rinsing cycle to wash out distorting soil thrown at the clothes by others with nefarious motives.

      • Pat Riot permalink
        November 4, 2016 9:42 pm

        Jay, plenty of “distorting soil” out there. No argument there. It’s hideous. The damage that this election has caused (mostly per Trump, as you’ve mentioned at times) I think cannot really be comprehended as we are going through it.

        In many ways the Internet for the general public is like giving a chainsaw to a 4-year-old. Maybe we should require a license with a test to be allowed to surf the www. It’s dangerous. It’s divisive.

      • November 4, 2016 11:32 pm

        Agree.
        Internet -mass access and ability to broadcast unfiltered rumor, has become a two edged sword, both edges slicing away reason and contemplation. The frequent Twitter term of something ‘ going viral’ sums up the unexpected consequences of unbridled freedom of communication. A problem that may not be solvable

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 4, 2016 8:26 pm

      “Clinton white-washing tag team”

      You don’t like my opinions, Pat, then don’t read em. That would be the libertarian thing to do.

      Hilariously, you can’t freakin read because I certainly did not whitewash the Clintons, I blamed a good part of this trump mess on them and wished them hemorrhoids and consequences. Sorry that was still not black enough for you.

      Actually, Jay came back with solid stuff, facts. Instead of coming up with your own unhelpful label, argue with Jays facts or mine. I say that you will come up with vague emotional arguments and hazy implications rather than arguing with Jays facts, if you come up with anything.

      • November 4, 2016 9:34 pm

        GW, I thought you’d be lighter and more fun after your vacation, or trip, or whatever it was.

        What do you want, a dissertation? Graphs and charts? You’ve really done it this time. You called me a…a…Libertarian. I used to think maybe I was, but they’re usually a bit too theoretical for me, as if “free markets” will take care of everything, as if everyone will just behave and mind their own business.

        I’m not a Libertarian, or an Anarchist. I’m not a right-wing Christian, though I prefer moderate Christian values (sans egocentric, wild conclusions about the mind or wishes of a God) over “nihilistic atheism” or a “survival-of-the-fittest Darwinian-Machiavellian Conquest/Empire underlings-be-damned worldview that some Elites seem to have, so what am I?

        Can I just be a philosopher living in 21rst-century America? I cringe at both Mrs. C and Donald T.

        I’ve been formulating my worldview most everyday for the past 40-some years. It has something to do with a balance between bottom-up and top-down, Democratic safety net programs for when life chews people up and spits them out, Republican values of personal responsibility and entrepreneurial innovation not overly impeded by regulations, un-Libertarian and non-Anarchist in that reasonable “Democratic” regulations are needed, so what am I?

        You and your linear political spectrum!

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 4, 2016 10:39 pm

        No, Pat, no lighter after my trip because the situation is even worse. I am more focused on this kind of trump voter than on houswives:

        “As firefighters neared the historically black church Tuesday night in Greenville, Miss., they saw flames in the windows and smoke pouring from the roof.

        When they got closer, they could see two words spray-painted on the side of the burning sanctuary: “Vote Trump.””

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/11/02/vote-trump-painted-on-wall-of-burned-out-black-church-in-mississippi/

        Oh, I know, I should ignore the alt right and focus on the trump housewives but for some reason my mind won’t do that. Why exactly do these white supremacists love trump? Could it be anything he has said or done? Could it be anything about his character?

        There is comparison to be made of the faults of the candidates and you seem to sarcastically reject a factual analysis of Clinton’s actions but that is exactly what is needed in order to understand what is so evil about her that one must choose trump. The answer may be that trump is not the lesser evil, but thats not an idea you seem to want to have discussed factually or dispute factually.

  14. November 4, 2016 11:00 pm

    You and I seem so very far apart politically and philosophically. Do you really want to try to address the many differences? to venture into the chasm? I don’t know if it’s possible to achieve anything productive in this format from such disparate viewpoints.

  15. Pat Riot permalink
    November 4, 2016 11:06 pm

    Here is another sliver of my worldview, from Neil Peart. Maybe it will be too emotional and not empirical enough for your taste. I’m not jabbing you. It may be too “soft” for your usual taste in political discourse. I think it is very appropriate and relevant to our changing, “globalizing” world.

    And the men who hold high places
    Must be the ones who start
    To mold a new reality
    Closer to the heart
    Closer to the heart
    The blacksmith and the artist
    Reflect it in their art
    They forge their creativity
    Closer to the heart
    Yes closer to the heart
    Philosophers and plowmen
    Each must know his part
    To sow a new mentality
    Closer to the heart
    Yes closer to the heart, yeah, oh
    Whoa whoa
    You can be the captain
    And I will draw the chart
    Sailing into destiny
    Closer to the heart
    Closer to the heart
    Well closer to the heart, yeah
    Closer to the heart
    Closer to the heart
    I said closer to the heart
    Well closer to the heart, yeah
    Closer to your heart
    Closer to your heart, whoa

    • Mike Hatcher permalink
      November 4, 2016 11:44 pm

      After spending I don’t know how long on my last comment, I see a number of new comments that have been written, the latest, lyrics from RUSH, I love a lot of RUSH songs. I dare say “Free will” is my favorite, but many others, including…”When the ebbing,…tide retreats,…along the rocky shore line.. _ I mean that song is deep! Thanks Pat for bringing up Closer to the Heart.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 5, 2016 5:45 am

      Pat I get that your worldview is anti-globalization, anti big bank, anti elite, pro little guy. I get that you are rightfully angry at the system that screws workers. But anger is not a plan. Trump offers you nothing at all, and you are not at all blind to the faults of trump. You are simply so deeply angry with the system that that Clintons are part of and in your opinion represent that trump or any other candidate is better.

      I do get that you sincerely care about the working people who are not in control of their destinies while heartless capitalists buy and trade companies, dismantle them, move jobs overseas. I’m with you there but what is the actual concrete antidote? At your heart Pat there is a marxist sympathy but you are a smart guy and this is 2016, not 1917, so….

      Yes I believe in the basic analytical framework of right and left. I did not invent it, society invented/evolved it over more than 200 years of struggling with the economics of capitalism and the heartless soulless amoral decisions that come with it. Yes, I know that you have elements of left and right and do not fit into any neat right-left niche, but the things you basically care about and are upset about explain why you were drawn first to bernie.

      Again, anger is not a plan. I don’t care how you vote but trump offers you nothing other than not being Clinton, the establishment, the system. You say you are for stability. Well, yes, as an ideal but not when you weigh stability against bringing down your hated system. Pat you can’t have both, stability and bringing down the system. You have no actual concrete model to replace the system with. You have no idea the forces trump is unleashing, yes, you reject trump the person but you are for trump the movement that is how angry you are with the system. Trump is now close to winning. You will likely curse yourself if he does, he is unleashing the crazies with his talk of not accepting the rigged election unless he wins among many other things. You do not appreciate how dangerous the trump movement is, but you will if he wins.

      I never bang heads with Ron P or Mike and I only banged heads with Jay when in a fit of something or other he proposed a super trumpian idea. These are very different people and I am regularly wildly impressed with all of them, their rationality. I bang heads with you. In your case its a very visceral worldview and you make very visceral posts whose basic attack on the stable basically decent most of the time world I cannot agree with in this wretched political season. You mean well, but you are on the side of a trumpian revolution that has no actual rational plan behind it that is very likely to blow up in all of our faces and leave us changed all right but much for the worse.

      Rush lyrics are no explanation or rationalization for unleashed black church burning right wing racist populist crazies, to name only one of the trump related diseases. I know you are not for those ideals, but you are so angry with the system that you will focus on the Clintons foundation etc. instead and hope that trump wins. The cure is much much worse than the disease and I am frustrated and also scared shitless that many decent, intelligent, well-read people do not see that. Even if we miss the trump presidency by a hair he has already degraded us, its a deep deep wound a permanent change for the much worse. There is no upside to the trump revolution, its pure cultural destruction, Bin Laden’s attack on our values has combined with our own sick elements and slowly, majestically, borne fruit. A fairer deal for workers is not going to be its result.

  16. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 4, 2016 11:38 pm

    Pat: perhaps I’m biased, perhaps those compliments GW occasionally throws my way as sub-consciously made me more favorable towards him, but with that qualifier, I think in this particular, recent thread, I was contesting that just because someone doesn’t receive an actual paycheck doesn’t mean someone couldn’t be personally enriched from interaction with a non-profit charity. It was admittedly an attack on the Clintons and GW was in agreement with me. Jay was, has he consistently has, been stanchly defending the integrity of the Clinton Foundation organization and to a lesser extent, defending the Clintons. GW then chimed in praising Jay for his research. Something I was going to do as well, but GW beat me to it.

    Thus, in my opinion, calling GW and Jay a tag team on this thread, seems to me like you missed the meaning of GW’s comments. Now, back to my bias, shoot if I can get slanted, even if I don’t want to be slanted, from a few words on the web, how much easier can an elected official become slanted in their views if millions of dollars are flowing around giving a person, if nothing else, at least prestige and network connections. There may be nothing wrong, in fact it may be good for Mr. Clinton to travel the world in style, bringing in money to a charitable organization. However, there is nothing wrong with owning an NBA basketball team either, but if your wife just happens to be an NBA referee, even if she never refs any of your team’s games, that could be a problem.

    The fact is the Hillary is a documented liar, but even if she was a perfect angel, just the appearance of conflicting interests should have either precluded these foreign entities from donating to the Clinton Foundation, or let them donate to their heart’s content but not let Hillary in the position of Secretary of State. One or the other is fine, just not both.

    Rush Limbaugh has said a number of times that there is nothing special about American DNA. Essentially he is saying that Americans are no better humans than anyone else on the planet , but the SYSTEM put in place by the founding fathers has turned out to be almost magical. Those of us who have had a chance to travel around the world can experience first hand how there are other people in many places, just as, or more, kind, loving, smart, you name an attribute and they have it. They have resources too, sure the geology of North America is rich, but it is not our geology that makes us wealthy and incredibly politically and socially free, it is our system. It isn’t perfect, nor are our politicians, but this nation has reached a level of social equality and wealth that is unprecedented. Can this nation survive leaders with flaws like the Clintons, sure we can, but aught we turn a blind eye to their “conflicts of interest” because their political opponent is so much worse (allegedly)? No, no, Hell no. We need to peacefully and patiently fight to maintain and/or improve our system, the fact that we are a zillion times more free and just than many countries in this world like North Korea and a hundred plus others, does not mean we aught to tolerate racism in the police force, as infrequently as it may occur. Ok, I or we could rant all day about grievances of one form or another, but I ask to turn it back to the personal….

    We here at the New Moderate are like a tiny America, we have our flaws but I’ve travelled to sports blogs that spew a thousand times worse venom arguing about sports teams. I’m sure most of you all know how bad many other blogs are. Yes, we are way better than that here, but I challenge all here to strive to be even better than we already are in how we treat each other.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 5, 2016 5:57 am

      “The fact is the Hillary is a documented liar, but even if she was a perfect angel, just the appearance of conflicting interests should have either precluded these foreign entities from donating to the Clinton Foundation, or let them donate to their heart’s content but not let Hillary in the position of Secretary of State. One or the other is fine, just not both.”

      I absolutely agree. I agree with every word you write and I agree with every word Jay writes as well, you are both beautifully rational and moral while carrying opposite sides of the Clinton morality debate.

      I would not want Clinton to win for the reason that you have distilled out of the noise, if the alternative were not trump.

      Your entire post was brilliant, and don’t get a swelled head, I find much of what Jay and Ron P say to be brilliant as well, the lot of you give me hope that there is some decency and rationality left in my country.

      Its, like, 5:00 am. My body is in vermont but my circadian rhythms are still in Haifa, where its noon.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 5, 2016 8:14 am

        GW- During the McCain-Obama campaign, some young lady got cut on the face which she initially claimed was from an Obama supporter. Later she recanted admitting she had done it herself. Do we blame Obama for her twisted attempt to oppose him? You have made reference to the church burning/vote Trump incident but I don’t believe it has been determined as of yet who did it. Even if it was an actual Trump supporter that did it, it would only be incalculable speculation that such an individual would not have done the same act, albeit with perhaps a different phrase, had Trump never run for office.

      • November 5, 2016 10:10 am

        True- you always get crazies from both sides of the divide,
        But you have to ask yourself are some candidates crazy-magnets, who draw a greater percentage to brazenly act out their craziness?

        Like the adage ‘The Devil made me do it,” is Trump a Treacherous Torch?

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 5, 2016 9:06 am

        Mike, its true what you say and I thought of it too, but I’ll tell you, it would take a lot of balls to be a liberal type in Mississippi and burn a black church and write a trump slogan. Its possible of course, but the risk of getting caught would not be worth it on many levels. I’d say the more obvious explanation has far more probability. I do blame trump for the consequences of his words and the acts he has stirred up. You are being more philosophical than I am. He has struck that tone, he owns it.

        I’m willing to place some of the blame for the violent acts of BLM on the folks who are shouting violent slogans and I am willing to blame the actions of trumps hooligans to some extent on trumps words and actions.

      • November 5, 2016 9:58 am

        GW- how about taking a break from the election and fill us in on your Israel trip. Impressions, etc.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 5, 2016 10:59 am

        Hey Jay, OK can do. FIrst, I am not a born traveler like my wife is. I jet lag. I take quite a bit of time to settle in overseas. We had very long trips in both directions 48 hours without sleep as the flights were at night and we had long layovers and several connections. I tend to lose my mind without sleep.

        First impression was that the grandkid (not my biological one) was adorable, just a ball of joy. She is 3 months old. Smiles a LOT and full of laughs. Their apartment, which I would call quite decent and comfortable and not terribly expensive is a mile from the sea, huge open window for hanging laundry looks out right on the port. Great view. Wild cats everywhere, wild dogs too. That sometimes gets loud at night. Arabs getting along with Jews just fine, we visited arab markets (Acca) ate in arab restaurants ( I recommend it!) I did not meet a single jerk or angry person. I nearly bought an Oud. We flew on Aeroflot (one of the better airlines in its international flights in any case, New Boeing aircraft, good food and lots of it, very hospitable staff, on time). Stopped in Moscow in both directions for a 4-hour layover. Met lots of great Russian people many of whom who could not have been more friendly, no sign of any anger towards me the American.

        Pretty hot in Haifa, interesting geology. The sea was warm and very large waves. Surfers. I came home with a huge stash of the flint that is found in nodules in the local limestone. Everything there is built of stone. Signs are almost all in Hebrew, which was very disconcerting to me. Labels on food as well. (What was I expecting?) I dont know any Hebrew but almost everyone spoke Russian. It took me up till the last 2-3 days to get my feet on the ground and feel comfortable. Haifa has the goddamdest street layout you ever saw, nothing but curves. I came up with the theory that it looked like the Hebrew or the Arabic writing, no straight lines. Traveling there made my head spin. A roundabout every 200 feet it seemed. We visited the Bahai gardens, pretty amazing.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_World_Centre

        On the very efficient and modern bus system the signs and announcements were in Hebrew and Arabic. Muslim prayers were broadcast over loudspeakers early in the morning and other times. No visible signs of anything but getting along between the arab and jewish (and Bahai) populations. The local Arabs are not to be confused with Palestinians.

        The food was good, the people were nice, the climate was warm, the city was pretty attractive in most places. Nowhere near as many armed military people as I expected, I saw more weapons in JFK than Ben Gurion.

        I’d go back (I’d like to) and feel at home.

  17. November 5, 2016 10:58 am

    Mike, you made some good comments that are appreciated (e.g. not making assumptions about the Church burning, though I thought GW’s comeback on that was valid), and I’d like to respond to some of your comments soon, but GW is going to keep me busy for awhile.

    Jay, that’s a good suggestion about impressions from GW’s Israel trip. I think we’d all be interested in hearing first-hand impressions from that region of the world.

    GW, your 5:45 post directed at me is so full of incorrect assumptions and faulty reasoning that I must address them one or two or a few at a time.

    “Pat I get that your worldview is anti-globalization…pro little guy.” See, GW, there you go again with your two-pronged, binary, bifurcated way of thinking. The Media often does the same thing. Someone will warn against the dangers and consequences of “empire-building” or being the policeman of the world” and then someone will knee-jerk to accusing them of being an “isolationist.” That’s left-right, black-white, on-off, binary thinking. That’s faulty reasoning. It’s a habit too many people have. A true Moderate thinks in degrees, gradations, the appropriate amount of a thing for a given situation. The world is not a dichotomy.

    There are aspects of life on Earth that can be and should be globalized. For the sake of our shared air and water, we can’t have rogue nations doing whatever they want to do. For our very survival, including the fact that nukes exist, we must have some aspects of global interaction, global communication, global cooperation. It’s as basic a common sense concept as neighborhoods in the U.S. benefitting from their municipality, township, or borough taking care of common needs such as roads, et cetera.

    If criticisms of U.S. foreign policy are going to be quickly pigeon-holed as “anti-globalism” and “pro-little guy,” why should I bother discussing with you?

    “…rightfully angry…and “anger is not a plan” Jeez Louise. I am rarely ever angry. You don’t know me and you certainly have proven with your posts that you do not “get” me. We need to replace your Conclusion Jumping Award with a bigger one. You know that text often carries no tone, or is often misunderstood, but I think it’s just easier for you to try to stick me into a category, like with a bunch of angry Trump voters, or a bunch of “populists” or whatever. That way, me and my viewpoints are “over there” in such and such category, and you don’t have to take the time to put issue on the table in a real, honest, open way.

    Neither one of us has time for this. Here’s a way to end this soon. I’m not going to walk away from your incorrect assumptions about me or what I’ve been saying, so I’ll point out the numerous places you were incorrect so that I’m not misrepresented and not falsely accused.
    Then, if you can refrain from future incorrect assumptions, you can go your way and I’ll go mine.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 5, 2016 11:11 am

      Pat, I was seriously trying to find ways to describe the impression that you have given me of your opinions and values that are so general that you could not possible tell me I got you wrong. But I still got you all wrong you say. Communication is a two way street. You are more likely to explain what you Don’t mean than what you do mean. As well, you don’t get even my most straightforward opinions either.

      For once in your life say exactly and concretely what you DO mean, what you do want from trump, and politics in general (and no, honesty, is not an informative answer) and then if I still don’t get it, complain. If you really want me to understand you, then make it very clear, just once and we can get past this mutually boring phase.

  18. Pat Riot permalink
    November 5, 2016 11:05 am

    Post Script and fyi:

    Nothing in my previous post was said in anger. It is very possible for someone to project anger onto it, but I very much enjoy rational discussion. I might make a point strongly, but that shouldn’t be misinterpreted or assumed to be anger.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 5, 2016 11:17 am

      Did not hear anger, heard frustration. Look, if its any consolation I don’t understand a whole lot about the way my wife thinks either and I disagree with a good bit of what I DO understand. But we have a great relationship anyhow.

  19. Pat Riot permalink
    November 5, 2016 11:16 am

    GW, you trip sounds like it was very nice. I am very glad to hear about different cultures getting along.

    I believe if experiences like yours were broadcast, rather than the more anomalous treachery and accidents, then the people of the world would have a much better, healthier perception of reality, i.e. many people able to live in peace and able to get along.

  20. Pat Riot permalink
    November 5, 2016 11:48 am

    Here is how our “communication” at TNM has essentially proceeded in 2016, GW:

    You post something, not necessarily to me, but to Jay, or Mike, or Ron P, or Priscilla (Where is Priscilla? Priscilla are you okay? Are you just sworn off politics until after the election? Until 2020 C.E.?)…anyway, you post something that comes across to me as very “polar” and very generalizing, and condescending, such that Trump voters are all angry Neanderthals, or just stupid, or whatever.

    Then I object to the polarization and the generalization. I basically say, “not necessarily” and I usually try to point out examples. I might say something along the lines that “generalizing as you do is a dangerous thing in my opinion.”

    Then you start foaming at the mouth and falling over backwards. You remind everyone that Trump is a degenerate, etc. Then you accuse me of not stating my world view.

    It’s not very productive.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 5, 2016 12:18 pm

      Wrong from the get go. Find me one post of mine, just one that says “that Trump voters are all angry Neanderthals, or just stupid, or whatever.”

      I am the king of the the qualifier and I will eat my hat if you can find me one instance where I made such a blanket stupid statement. I have not said it and I do not believe it. What I did instead was to list all the reasons for you say po tay to I say po ta to, republicans voting republican liberlas voting democrat. I have listed all the reasons why a person could be a reluctant trump voter, which I clearly have said several times is not a supporter, a supporter is enthusiasm, adoration, warm joy, for trumps words and thoughts, that I do find quite nuts, yes. (But you will not allow me even that little liberal pleasure oh, sometimes libertarian thought policeman.) There is not one such person on this site. You are the one and only possible trump voter on this site and you have made it clear that you have a low opinion of the man. I think you are making a very wrong choice but all the same I have described you with words such as intelligent, well meaning, sincere. Boy, are you working hard to be insulted. Are you sure you are not a campus liberal? <— This was an attempt at levity.

      The part that you have correct is that these exchanges start with you coming after me for some alleged blanket statement that you think I made, when I never did and in fact I bent over backwards to say that I do not consider the 42% who may vote for trump a monolithic group. It just flat out Dave like. I give you the "Dave-like putting words you wish they would say in someone's mouth" award since you are award oriented.

      And, this has been a great diversion from you actually telling me what you want from trump and politics in general and why he is the lesser evil compared to hillary and why specifically and concretely hillary is so utterly terrible that even trump is better in such a clear way that I will have to stop getting you all wrong.

    • Pat Riot permalink
      November 5, 2016 2:18 pm

      That is my purposely crass summary. It’s not an all-inclusive account, but it seems to me to be the pattern. Do we want to push through this to talk about the issues?

  21. Pat Riot permalink
    November 5, 2016 2:22 pm

    I guess we were keyboarding at roughly the same time.

  22. Pat Riot permalink
    November 5, 2016 2:45 pm

    “Again, anger is not a plan. I don’t care how you vote but trump offers you nothing other than not being Clinton, the establishment, the system. You say you are for stability. Well, yes, as an ideal but not when you weigh stability against bringing down your hated system. Pat you can’t have both, stability and bringing down the system.”

    This may be a good place to start. Instead of putting words in your mouth, I am going to say things like “seems like you are saying” or “seems like you are implying” and such.

    Your above statement, and many others, seem to set up another dichotomy: namely that there is the “Establishment” on one side with Clinton, and a chaotic bringing down the system on the other side with Trump.

    But Clinton doesn’t represent all of the “Establishment,” and Trump isn’t exclusively about “bringing down the system” and instability.

    As Ron and others have stated here, we are not electing a monarch, so it may not be quite as precipitous as you and others are making it out to be. Or it may, if people keep losing their minds and paying attention to all the fear mongering, etc.

    It is important to understand that I can be against particular aspects of our current administration, and I can be strongly against a major portion of our current administration, without being anti-Establishment in general. No, as I’ve said before many times, I don’t desire chaos and disorder and civil unrest. I want intelligent transitions. As I’ve said before, I’m not a fan of populist uprisings or mob mentality.

    But yes, a continuation of our Admin’s policies, at home and abroad, looks far more devastating than some temporary chaos and Trump’s womanizing, etc. If Trump has to be the inglorious bastard who stops the runaway train, then yes it’s the lesser of evils.

    More in a bit. I do have a life to live.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 5, 2016 3:05 pm

      I could give a shit about his womanizing once he is elected. Its that chaos bit that concerns me, especially on foreign policy with family in Israel. And even without family in Israel. What particular policy(s) of Obama’s is worse than the “temporary” chaos?

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 5, 2016 3:08 pm

        How I wish I could edit previous posts. Describe the runaway train as you see it, concretely and I may, just may, begin to understand you.

  23. November 5, 2016 3:18 pm

    The chaos bit concerns me too. We’re already in it, in many ways. The shootings of police officers, etc. The fragmentation of our society into so many camps. Let’s at least agree that both of us, and most thinking people, would prefer “cooler heads to prevail.”

    We don’t want to create artificial or imagined contention between you and I. There will be contention enough.

  24. November 5, 2016 6:16 pm

    What is the Runaway Train?

    We don’t need to single out Obama’s two terms or W’s. Of course, there are differences in personnel and policy particulars between the various recent administrations. But isn’t it enough to look at the bottom lines over recent decades? Follow the money. Trillions spent in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, and for what? For stability? Are we cheering the accomplishments? How is our reputation in the world? For what? For the financial benefit of a relative few at the expense of whom? At the expense of what?

    History teaches us that all institutions tend to get stale and then corrupt over time. I’ve had enough experience with large institutions to see first-hand how they can get so big that they defy common sense, that CYA (Cover Your Ass) becomes a normal daily operation, and it is better to appear to do no wrong than to dare to do what needs to be done. Our top leaders have become embroiled in a culture of corruption.

    In conjunction with the myriad of ways to engage the powerful and capable private sector here at home (and abroad, I’m not an “Isolationist”), we can use the Army Corps of Engineers for bridges and other projects in Michigan, Ohio, and New Jersey. We can use the U.S. Navy Seabees for the construction of various community facilities in Mississippi, Louisiana, and Virginia. We can use Army Airborne Red Horse Regiments for all sorts of needed infrastructure. Such activities could be upgrading infrastructure, providing jobs, and raising morale in this country. There can be amazing, agile partnerships between Business, Government, and Institutions of Higher Education. But the priorities are not here in the U.S. One in 4 homes were in foreclosure or near foreclosure.

    I’m not naïve, innocent, squeamish, or unrealistic. I expect there to be some unsavory and unfortunate consequences during big operations. Some injustice and some corruption are somewhat natural phenomena to an extent. But U.S. leadership has become systemically corrupt. It amounts to “robbing the till”. If the purposes were admirable, then they could be spelled out and explained to the American People, but there is little transparency. Unprecedented wealth to the already wealthy. Division at home. A rise in hatred. These are not conspiracy theories. We want more of this? A culture of corruption.

    Let’s give the Clintons and other recent administrations the benefit of the doubt on a few things, that some things may have been taken out of context, or blown out of proportion, as we look at this partial list:

    Personal e-mail server scandal
    FBI testimony scandal
    Paula Jones
    Vince Foster
    Jorge Cabrera
    Norman Hsu
    Sniper Fire lies
    Benghazi and other embassy and U.S. installation failures and cover-ups
    Clinton Foundation
    Travelgate
    Monica Lewinsky
    Whitewater
    Cattle Money
    Democratic National Convention Scandal regarding Bernie Sanders
    Clinton Speeches
    Destabilization of the Middle East
    Expenditures overseas
    Welcoming of refugees (why not safe zones without crossing the oceans? Help them, yes, but WHY bring them here to the U.S.????) Refugees are provided a drivers’ license, social security card, and eligible for welfare benefits. Hillary wants how many more? 65,000? What is the latest number?
    Terrorist-sympathizing Iran is provided billions of dollars in nuclear arms deal. 400 million to Iran in the middle of the night—same night that American hostages are released.
    Race relations are strained, flames are fanned in the Mainstream Media
    GDP levels below 3%
    Assassinations of police officers
    Costs of medical insurance rising
    43 million people on U.S. Food Stamps.
    We want more of this Runaway Train?

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 6, 2016 9:55 am

      Pat, I really do appreciate you taking the time to make this list. Not meaning to in any way minimize your pains and the things that you are concerned about but half of this list (e.g. Lewinski) is stuff that is very old history that I just have let go and most of the rest of it (43 million on food stamps, Assassination of police officers) has little to do with the powers of the president or even congress and are not things that are going to be changed, no matter who is president or runs congress. For me the biggest such issues are the rotting inner cities, which could be IMHO greatly helped be a huge CETA type job training program that is far more likely to one day occur under a liberal democratic administration, but probably will never happen because conservatives will call it a handout and too expensive and always will have to power to stop it, and Climate change, ditto, liberals would make an effort but the problem is larger than the effort that can be made unless conservatives simply disappear from the face of the earth. So, I haven’t much hope for the large issues and I cannot even blame trump for that, its those huge impersonal forces again.

      I do not see that much of a unifying principle in your concerns and I do not see what electing trump (or Clinton) would do to change any of them. The kinds of giant changes that left and right have in their wish lists would literally only arise after a cataclysm, WWIII, another great depression. That would be the point at which a massive restructuring could occur, but left and right want utterly different ones and at this point its a nearly perfect 50-50 division. I don’t see that any president is going to change us. I wish that a genial unifying positive thinking sort of person would somehow gain traction in a presidential campaign, Lindsey Graham would do it for me, that would at least help and could lead to some improvement in the awaiting the next civil war mentality we have now, but even a great president is not going to remove the people on food stamps (a large number of those by the way are military families and old people) etc.

      I appreciate Mikes comment that I am not all that binary, Pat I simply live in the real world I describe our politics as it is, left and right. I did not create that, I do not love that, it simply is what has evolved, and probably I am sorry to say it is in our DNA to separate roughly into 2 camps. If it isn’t in our DNA, its certainly in the DNA of the internet. I’d say it IS in our DNA and the internet amplifies it.

      My little travelogue of peaceful interactions in Israel (and Boston and NYC when I was there in recent years) describes the non-political life of people doing their daily routines. That can be quite a lot better than the interactions we have about politics (and religion). You’ve mentioned that too Pat. People want to live decent get-along-with-others lives, politics and religion have always divided people and been the source of wars. Keep those things private, de-emphasize them in interactions with others and a happier psychology is the result. Perhaps in that sense political apathy can be a good thing, the more people stop to believe that politics is everything, the more they live their own lives. Politics and technological devices/cell phones are both psychological illnesses in my opinion, but of course we cannot do away with the former and the latter are an addiction that has far surpassed their intended function.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 6, 2016 11:54 am

      Upon thinking a bit more (because I am waking up slowly this am after a late jet lagged nite coming from a gig) there is somthing on your list that the president does affect and the does matter:

      “Welcoming of refugees (why not safe zones without crossing the oceans? Help them, yes, but WHY bring them here to the U.S.????) Refugees are provided a drivers’ license, social security card, and eligible for welfare benefits. Hillary wants how many more? 65,000? What is the latest number?”

      You just made me decide to do an un-necessary thing, you just gave me a reason to vote for in deep blue Vermont for Hillary and make my small rejection of the core trump issue.

      65,000 is a a tiny number compared to the number of refugees and compared to the number of US citizens. But yes, its important to do, very important The only reason to reject doing it is that fear trumps compassion.

      I just happened to be born in the USA, which just happened to have found itself in a leadership position in the post WWII world a decade or so prior to my birth. This was due to a number of things, one of which Mike very beautifully described, the US Constitution and the brilliant framework of our government that has given us what so many other societies lack. Along with my accidental good fortune come some onerous responsibilities, leadership in the post WWII world has been expensive in blood and money. I joined the Army Nat Guard infantry willingly at age 29, I would not have done it if I did not (do not) believe in the basic purpose of US foreign policy, and it ain’t enriching the elite. Its freedom, which is Not free.

      It IS important that the US reject fear and embrace compassion for refugees, including Syrian ones. The Statue of Liberty. I believe in it. trump is harnessing a sentiment that makes so many caveats to the spirit of the Statue of Liberty, based on fear and other even less noble things, its cancer on a core American principle. Clinton is absolutely correct on this one and trump and his movement are absolutely wrong.

      This is the reason that I will vote for Clinton. Your words on the refugees convinced me.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 6, 2016 12:34 pm

        I think your position on the 65K immigrants is reasonable, logical, and might very well end up being a blessing to all, as some of those 65K may learn a system and ideas that they could export back to their region of the world, not necessarily by physically returning, but by communicating with and influencing their friends and families from back home. The problem I have with that idea is that little word “might”. It might go that way, but it might go terribly wrong as well, they may have a greater impact importing their problems and changing this place for the worse than they have exporting the good back the other way. The attack that happened in a Minnesota shopping mall is sadly what I see as a symptom of a more likely outcome of additional refugees from that region at this time. I agree more with Pat at trying to help them over there while keeping them over there. I HEREBY ACCUSE YOU, GW, of being an OPTIMIST! 🙂

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 6, 2016 12:59 pm

        Old Dave (Dhlii) is very, very good and principled on this issue, which I respect him for. Should he wander in he will be right with me on the value to America of immigrants and refugees, Syrian, Islamic, or otherwise, based on his Libertarian principles. I am being logical I believe, American grown nuts have done far more damage in the US since 911 than foreigners from Islamic countries. Yes they could kill someone, so could a lot of people like the right winger who recently killed two cops, or the BLM inspired guy who killed cops in NYC. My parents were immigrants, oh, nice european ones, from Australia and Canada, not a bit controversial, but immigrants all the same. Some of my Irish blood is shared with immigrants/refugees who were controversial. I’ve taught english as a volunteer to Meskhetian Turk refugees who were resettled here, and I enjoy walking around NYC and hearing dozens of different languages and seeming dozens of different cultural expressions of dress, custom. One is a million is a bad egg, same for people born here.

        I know the faults of the US and its policies, I can enumerate them at length, Howard-Zinn like, in gory detail, but at the core I am not cynical about American values, we are in some ways the best thing that ever happened to this world. I am proud of that and will not yield to super-cynicism. There is a core thrust to America that is very worth believing in. That includes the words on the Statue of Liberty. If I were not at the core a patriotic American I would not have chosen to serve in the Army Nat Guard. I did expect my unit to go to Kuwait during the first Gulf war and I was ready. It did not happen, but I was in place and ready. I don’t regret my choice.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 6, 2016 1:11 pm

        I always wind up wishing I had included an extra thought in my post (not like they are not already long enough). Both things can happen from those 65, 000 or however many refugees, some will commit crimes petty or perhaps not petty, and many more will be a source of goodwill. Its not either or, both will happen. In principle it is worth it. We are the most powerful and the richest nation on earth. And we did break things in the Middle East, not that it was stable to begin with. So, if we don’t help refugees, as we have so many times before, why should any country? Put up a wall, on the Mexican border, refuse to help refugees? That is not my vision of American values. Fortune has blessed us, we have a responsibility to help, along with the military side of our actions.

  25. Pat Riot permalink
    November 5, 2016 6:35 pm

    It is any wonder an “outsider” has appeal? But is Trump really an outsider? Oh how I ache for someone other than Trump to lead a reclaiming of power away from the culture of corruption. Oh how I hope that Trump’s pro-American sentiments are at least partly for real.

    • November 5, 2016 7:05 pm

      It doesn’t matter what his sentiments are – Charles Manson claims to be patriotic. Trump will drive the bus off the road into the ditch. And then he’ll lie about it.

      His CONSTANT lying is pathological scary. Aren’t you troubled by how repeatedly and unconcernedly he lies in public?

      Daniel Dale, Washington correspondent for the Toronto Star, who fact checks every single word Trump utters and tallies them up for his paper, reports that Trump says “20 false things in a day, up to 37 on some days.”

      https://www.thestar.com/news/world/uselection/2016/11/04/donald-trump-the-unauthorized-database-of-false-things.html

      Who in their right mind can trust ANYTHING he says?

      • November 6, 2016 10:23 am

        Ah, c’mon, there’s plenty of biased spin in fact-checking. Just Google “Are fact-checkers biased?” and read examples from both sides of the aisle, from cherry-picking the things to be fact-checked to splitting hairs between wording such as “terrorism” and “acts of terror”.

        No, I’m not white-washing Trump, but there’s a difference between HRC’s lies and Trump’s lies, including a bunch of Trump’s “lies” being information he incorrectly and inaccurately gives. If Trump says “a thousand immigrants came across the Nevada border last week,” and it’s a “lie” because it was actually 750 people across the Arizona border, we get the point anyway that the border is too porous.

        Hillary knows the information and her lies are more practiced. She lies like a lawyer. Trump often lies like somebody’s Uncle Harry or like Cliff the mailman from Cheers who spouted off incorrect information. And the fact-checkers count up all the inaccuracies and call them “lies.”

        That’s not to say that Trump doesn’t out-and-out lie in the same championship way that Hillary lies. Both Trump and Clinton have their cover-up lies, but usually Hillary is covering up deaths and covert operations and transfers of money, whereas Trump is covering up crude personal behavior and transfers of money.

        And these are our Presidential candidates. Twilight Zone.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 6, 2016 10:03 am

      The dream that an outsider will fix things is something I actually just cannot begin to understand. OK, on some level I can understand how a person might think that, but its just plain silly to me. Climate change is not going to come to a halt (to name something I care about) because an outsider is elected, simply more chaos and new problems will come about if the president has no idea what they are doing. Mr. Smith goes to Washington was naive when it was produced and its completely naive now.

      Getting perspective of the fundamental causes of our worst problems would be a far better answer than the outsider-making-things-right-again fantasy. I don’t mean to be rude, I really don’t.

      A really good president could to some extent dampen the civil war atmosphere, that is what a really good president could potentially do. But there would have to be an endless string of them or the political commentary industry and the two parties would just pull us right back to where we are now.

      • Pat Riot permalink
        November 6, 2016 11:10 am

        We can’t afford to let it just be a fantasy, thought it probably is just a fantasy right now in this current Twilight Zone of U.S. politics and in regard to gargantuan issues like Global Warming.

        The “outsider thing” makes perfect sense to me from the perspective of a work place where shenanigans have been going on for so long that it’s in-grained and systemic. I’ve temporarily worked in places like this where the employees are in tight cliques and are so accustomed to stealing and shoddy work habits, for years, and the management has their own illicit side things going, and they are so accustomed to it as the status quo, and even the good people get sucked into the vortex of shenanigans, and the only way to get the place back on track would be for a new Plant Manager or CEO to come in, fire a bunch of people, or nearly everyone, and start over.

        If Steven Hawking became our President with Bill Gates as Vice President, and they “cleaned house” in government, it would still require a huge, significant social awakening and unprecedented coordination among citizens, etc.

        It’s so frustrating that it’s do-able, but we’re not doing it. It feels like I’ve time-traveled back to the 1400s and I know about electricity, and I tell people there are these invisible things called electrons and protons, and they can turn your grist mill, and they just laugh and laugh.

  26. November 5, 2016 11:38 pm

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/02/politics/obama-on-fbi-we-dont-operate-on-innuendo/

    Does he really think the we don’t remember the case of Henry Louis Gates, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown and the others that HE “operated on innuendo” and made comments to the press concerning the guilt of those responsible before an investigation or trial even occurred?

    And we wonder why there is so much division in this country. If we ever get a president that would even try to bring us back together, it will take every minute of their administration for 4 years to make a dent in the divide now, short of a terrorist attack like 9-11.

    And when Trump/Clinton is elected, whoever is in the opposition, the divisiveness will only grow. No wonder that Washington and Adams loathed political parties. Add that to the extreme intelligence these individual possessed. Maybe that (no parties) should have been written in the constitution since we have screwed that up lately along with so much other stuff.

  27. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 6, 2016 2:48 am

    Ron: My initial reaction to your comment about not having political parties, sounds great! I’d immediately caveat that in that I would not want to impede any people or group of people from forming whatever association they want, if a group wanted to promote greater cottage cheese consumption, fine, but I will now be pondering, what do people really get from our current political parties and how would things be better or worse without any political parties.

    Pat: I’ll admit your perspective has been at times to some degree enigmatic, but that lack of clarity never really bothered me as much as it seemed to bother GW. That being said, I felt you did a fine job being crystal clear with your 6:16 comment. I agree with most all of the content of your ideas expressed at 6:16 as well. I disagree that, from my perspective, GW has not binary, but respect your “accusation” which I will expand upon while addressing GW.

    GW: I really enjoyed you sharing about your trip, had it been about fishing in Montana, perhaps it would not have been so relevant, but the cultural, geo-political, themes from a very personal, first hand perspective was IMO great stuff for this blog. As stated to Pat, I think the binary charge was an over reach in describing you, however, I believe that on some narrow issues, we all are perhaps binary and that isn’t a bad thing. In fact, to be gray in all areas, to not have any black/white -right/wrong is a very sad state for someone to be in. That person would lack a moral compass. The question then becomes, is the extreme position you have on Trump justified? From what I perceive of your position on Trump is, the direction the U.S. is heading is like (just to quantify it) a negative 5 and a Clinton presidency as you project it will take us to perhaps negative 8, and a Trump presidency might take us to a negative 900. This perspective, if I understand you and I don’t assume I have you pegged on this, is effectively an all or nothing proposition. (I would have said binary again, but I get tired of using the same word too much). If you were all or nothing on absolutely every issue, I’d be worried about you, but you clearly are not, you just happen to seem to be all or nothing on the one issue that a lot of us are currently obsessed with, the assessment and comparison of our presidential choices.

    Pat/GW/RIck/All- I saw only a few minutes of SNL tonight but I did see a sketch where the actors playing Trump and Clinton ran out on the streets embracing everyone, Clinton hugging guys wearing anti-Clinton slogan T-shirts ect. It really wasn’t funny in my opinion, but it was very sweet. It seemed to be saying, aside from all the jokes they make, SNL really does want peace and harmony in this country. In a way, it to is a dream, a dream that we can all get along. I suspect Trump was just posturing in his equivocation about accepting election results. If there was a way to quantify it, which I don’t believe there is, I would bet money that A) Trump will lose the election AND B) Trump will be GRACIOUS in defeat, if he thought that throwing a tantrum would win him the election, he would throw a tantrum, but when it becomes a fact that he has lost, he will be as kind and charming as we have ever seen him in his concession speech. If anyone wants to challenge me on that, I’d be happy to work out the details, maybe send a contribution to Rick to be the money holder/arbitrator. Give him a 10% house cut in the process. Perhaps something like a $50 gift certificate to a restaurant of your choice or something. Any takers? Counter offers?

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 6, 2016 10:12 am

      Mike, I don’t take real bets since the day when I lost 3 record albums in a bet with a friend about what album a certain Steely Dan song was on (hah, dating myself) , but I can take a rhetorical one of some type, such as promising to tap dance in the rain wearing an uncle Sam costume if you are correct.

      I will take your bet on trump, the basic geniality of your nature is leading you to make a most optimistic projection. I cannot imagine trump using a concession speech to do other than to promote trump radio by claiming leadership of the rebellion. I can’t imagine a trump concession speech conceding anything. I most earnestly hope that tuesday night provides me the chance to test that idea.

      I will be overjoyed to be wrong about trump. I certainly love your optimism, don’t ever stop.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 6, 2016 10:21 am

        And, I should say that once again you have understood my point of view on the POTUS race quite well. Thanks for that!

        Honestly Pat is frustrated with the binary political world, its the one George Washington warned of and I don’t blame Pat at all for that, most of us hate the division into two camps and the civil war and national weakness it leads to. I’m just not responsible for it.

        To avoid binary political thinking is simple, don’t think about politics. Follow Bill Bradley’s thoughts when he resigned as a popular NJ Senator. Politics is not where the action is, that is an illusion that we make real by believing it.

  28. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 6, 2016 1:25 pm

    GW- Rather than a bet, how about a contest with an entry fee and a prize?

    Rick- Hopefully I post this comment prior to number 100 and you read it in a timely manner. I just was writing a detailed description of my proposed contest then I hit a button and apparently lost the content. Anyway, key details would be that I front both the prize money and a small administration fee for you to be the judge and run the contest. I.E. $50 gift card and $25 fee, that I pay you the morning of Tuesday Nov 8th. The cut off for people entering would be say, 10:00am Tuesday morning. We could call the contest something like : Wednesday Nov 9, election results and candidate reactions. You first sort contestant entries by accuracy of results, a Trump land slide win would go to someone who predicted that over someone who predicted a narrow win by Trump, an Al Gore type, hanging chad, unclear results would be won by anyone predicting that over others picking a clear winner. The next level would be predicting the reaction of the loser. Not acknowledging defeat, bitterly accepting defeat, positive and conciliatory. Obviously you would have to use some subjectivity but I think you could do it. Perhaps charge $5.00 to enter. (Again, with me putting in $75.00) So Rick, do you have the time and are you willing to do it? I’m making an assumption you have a method of accepting payment. Your self employed status makes me hopeful that that is the case.

    • November 8, 2016 5:19 am

      Just saw this, Mike. Sounds intriguing, but I have too much on my plate right now. (It’a a little too late, anyway.) Why don’t we just informally state our predictions for 1) the election results, and 2) the response of the loser.

      By the way, where’s Priscilla? And Dave? We’re losing our conservative/libertarian wing.

  29. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 6, 2016 1:33 pm

    GW, Oh !I have so much wanted to hear Dave explain more about how open boarders would work, he got a little bit into it, and then he disappeared. I doubt I’ll agree with him, but he was really good at explaining other things I did not understand and won me over on some points. What keeps a foreign country from just shipping massive amounts of unwanted people, emptying their jails an dumping them on our shores if we allow open boarders? I’m sure he had answers on what restrictions, if any, or how we would handle that, but never got that from him.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 6, 2016 1:55 pm

      My wife’s son was screened from coming here to the US based on some very petty problem it did not even involve court or arrest just an (false) accusation and a dispute process, a she said-she said argument with a woman landlord who was using him. So, I know first hand that the US screens applicants very rigorously even when they are attached to a US citizen by blood. My Senator’s office did their best to help but it was a lengthy process and then he got married in Israel and gave up on it. Its not a perfect, but they are not taking the results of the mass emptying of jails.

      The number of spectacular failures is tiny and we have our own home grown criminals murderers mass killers. Either one accepts that nothing is perfect or one does not. 911 and other terrorist acts provide a good reason to be even more diligent and do an even better job but it is not a reason to fundamentally change our core principles.

      Speaking for Dave, his position will be pure and, to many here, extreme, just take them, on the balance they will give more benefit than they cost in problems. Its been gone over at length, a search would find him defending a very pure Libertarian position of open borders and very extensive refugee acceptance against all objections. He is purer than I am in this, or almost anyone, but I highly respect his principles and his life reflects them: he adopted two girls I believe, I don’ remember from where, it was Asian or African countries I believe.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 6, 2016 4:40 pm

        Thanks GW, I don’t claim to know enough about the current immigration process to pass judgment on how strong or weak the screening is. I appreciate your input. I would still be interested in discussing with Dave on the theoretical level, I remember one key component he had in a “perfect” system of open boarders is that non-citizens would not get a dime of government aid, which of course would be very different from our current system. I wanted to know in his alternate system, what, if anything would be put in place to stop other countries from forcing people they did not want onto our shores.

  30. November 6, 2016 3:24 pm

    Well another in a line of “smoke” signals something illegal was performed. The most shocking is the info about half way though the article about her maid printing off the presidential daily briefings. These are not weather updates and Hollywood social gossip tidbits of information. These are top secret briefings of what is happening in the world including military updates. How long does it take a Filipino Immigrant to get top secret clearance?

    So here is my final (I promise) fortune telling comment. I would take bets that between the election night results where Clinton is elected and January when she take office, Obama will “pardon” her of any and all illegal activities while she was Sec. of State. He will do that using many of the same arguments Ford used when he pardoned Nixon, but the main one is “For the Good of the Country”. I pick Black Friday since that is the weekend everyone is focused on a holiday, Christmas shopping and spending little time on news media sites or watching TV. And by Monday the “shock” will have worn off for those really interested and the others will just accept it as politics in America today.

    http://nypost.com/2016/11/06/clinton-directed-her-maid-to-print-out-classified-materials/

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 6, 2016 6:27 pm

      I know Hillary did it (if true, let’s not rely on innuendo) for convenience and besides “Colin Powell, probably said it was OK”

    • November 6, 2016 7:54 pm

      “Confidential Emails Were Classified After The Fact And Originated From Clinton Aide. Neither of the two classified emails referenced by the New York Post were sent by Clinton, and Clinton did not make any request for Santos to print either email. Both emails were classified years after the fact — one in October 2015, and another in January 2016 — at the lowest level of classification, “confidential.” The sole case the Post cited of Clinton asking for a message to be printed was not classified. [U.S. Department Of State, 10/30/15; 1/29/16]”

      http://mediamatters.org/research/2016/11/06/conservatives-run-ny-post-story-about-maid-printing-clintons-emails-botch-classification-history/214345

      Why do you continue to fall for disinformation smears from the Murdoch owned blatantly Hillary Hating NY Post? This kind of devious news reporting is corrosive to democracies like ours, which need reasoned objectivity from the news media.

      This is truer now then when he said this:

      “We’re an ignorant nation right now. We’re not really capable, I do not think, the majority of our people, of making the decisions that have to be made at election time and particularly in the selection of their legislatures and their Congress and the presidency, of course. I don’t think we’re bright enough to do the job that would preserve our democracy, our republic. I think we’re in serious danger.”
      -Walter Cronkite

      • November 6, 2016 8:14 pm

        And keep in mind whoever was sending ‘classified’ documents via email to Hillary was at fault for not clearly marking them as such – only a handful of low level classified documents had the alerting (C) character, but it was buried inside the message, not easily spotted. Additionally, it’s obvious from all the back- rating of unmarked emails to confienntial that the process was/is ludrucously arbitrary, like food or movie reviews frequently declared on whim.

        Hillary was just plain dumb when it came to cyber security a decade ago, when judged by our present understanding of the devious snooping technology available to hackers. But that ignorance doesn’t deserve the kinds of vicious bellicose distortion of character leveled at her by the Right: slipshoddyness isn’t criminal.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 7, 2016 12:13 am

        “…that the process was/is ludrucously arbitrary”. Actually Jay, the classification process is not that arbitrary. The level of classification of most pieces of information are tied to the source of the information. Things obtained from intercepted and deciphered radio signals have one classification while information from paid informants have another classification, while information obtained from spy satellites have yet another. If the information is available from a public source then it is unclassified. I recall times back when I was an intelligence analyst in the Army, I would sometimes put in a report the CIA World Fact Book as a source of some of the information. On one occasion I had someone fussing at me that I had the wrong classification on my report because I was using the CIA as a source. I then pointed out that the CIA World Fact Book, was a public source of information and thus that would not affect the classification one bit.

        If you knew that some Middle Eastern official had motion sensors on their office windows because they had bragged about it and showed a news reporter, then that information was unclassified. But if the reason we knew that information was because we were paying money to a cleaning lady of the office of that Middle Eastern official, then that would be Top Secret information. Most spies are not really highly trained, James Bond type individuals that break into places and steal information. The more common spy is a trash collector, cleaning lady, or cook that has access to something we want and we have found a way to contact and bribe that person to give us information. That’s why only an idiot would allow sensitive information to pass through a housekeeper without a security clearance.

        Jay, you made a valid point that there is no evidence in the referenced story that Hillary herself directed or knew what her staff was doing. But this certainly appears to be a case where more than one person needs to be fired or arrested. But we know the Clintons, they are not going to help clean this up, even if they are personally innocent of the actions. They are going to obstruct and cover-up. Why are they so loyal to the people below them that mess up? It is a rhetorical question, the Clintons can’t afford to fire or prosecute insiders that know the Clintons.

      • November 7, 2016 1:49 am

        Jay..I guess the problem is there is not any source of information that is the truth. If the right wing press runs with a story, you will not find one word on a main stream media site. If you find anything on the main stream media that paints Clinton as not doing anything wrong, you will not see one word on the right wing media. How do we change our laws to require truthful reporting in all media outlets?

        When I read the NY Post, the Washington Post or any other major news outlet, I don’t know who owns the thing. If it is a newspaper owned by Gannett (USA Today and many others), I don’t know if they are bleeding heart Liberals or right wing extremist.

        All I know is I want to puke when I hear either Clinton or Trump open their mouths. Thank god the election is over on Tuesday, at least we won’t have non-stop negative ads on TV like now. And they contain most all the information that the Murdoch press print as well as what the liberal media has printed about Trump, so I guess the ads are lies also. I have avoided ABC< NBC< FOX and CBS for the past 2 months and stuck to the cable channels as they have few political ads. After Tuesday i can watch some of the regular programming and get ready for the holidays.

      • November 7, 2016 10:14 am

        The first thing I have been doing each morning, after my fortifying first sips of coffee, is check two online sites: Real Clear Politics for polling numbers (they have a complication poll, averaging all the major polls) which is the most reliable source for accurate numbers; and then:

        http://editorialcartoonists.com/index.cfm#top

        This cartoonist site is also a compilation – of daily editorial cartoons, from the Left, Right, and Center. The cartoons have been equally savaging both Trump & Clinton, depending on the news cycle. Today, however, there are a high number of cartoons expressing your feelings about the election – that both candidates suck.

        If like me you’re a cartoonist fan, check it out.

      • November 7, 2016 4:58 am

        Great posts Jay ,Obviously I agree with you but I agree with Mike as well, if that is not a contradiction, during your entire back and forth. The Mike-Jay conversation on Hillary is everything our national conversation on politics should be but isn’t: fact based, calm, rational, respectful. It takes two parties to have such a worthwhile conversation. My hat is off to both of you. Someone should discover this conversation and use it as a model in HS for how to talk about controversial political subjects without vitriol so that light is shed and not heat.

  31. dduck12 permalink
    November 7, 2016 7:28 pm

    “slipshoddyness isn’t criminal” Nor is ignorance/dumb, nor “mistakes” nor the desire for “convenience” nor the incompetance of those sending her emails and the freakin’ rigged security classification system. Yes all flaws, but gosh darn it she deserves to have it all ignored for the greater good. 🙂
    BTW, have they refuted the NY Post allegations yet, fie on Murdoch and the only money grubbing media empire. 🙂

  32. November 7, 2016 8:16 pm

    No matter who wins tomorrow, how headline will state (Winner) Tells (Loser) “YOU’RE FIRED!”

    • November 7, 2016 8:17 pm

      that’s ‘how many headlines”

    • Mike Hatcher permalink
      November 7, 2016 10:17 pm

      Hard to predict how many. How many news outlets are there? About the only one I’m pretty sure of, is that if it is a Hillary win, the Huffington Post will not care how predictable that line is, they will use it.

  33. November 7, 2016 9:06 pm

    When I was a boy I was fortunate enough to visit Niagara Falls. I threw big fat sticks into the turbulent Niagara River and tried to watch them go over the falls. Over the edge of the falls the sticks always disappeared into the thunderous tumult.

    I can’t help feeling the country is heading to some turbulent edge tomorrow. I can’t shake it. Maybe it will be like Y2K–a quiet nothing after all the hullabaloo. (Some DJ on the radio said he went into his basement at midnight of 2000 and threw off the main breaker during his house party and freaked everyone out. Good one.)

    Today coming home from work there were exuberant people in the intersections with Trump signs and much honking and thumbs up from Trumpers. This was in a fairly affluent suburb of Philadelphia.

    I fear the Electoral College will select Hillary after the popular vote chooses Trump.

    If Hillary wins I believe she is capable of saying something to the effect of “let’s put this ugly election behind us and work together…” because she knows how to say the “right thing”.

    We need to come together somehow.

    • November 8, 2016 12:16 am

      “I fear the Electoral College will select Hillary after the popular vote chooses Trump.”

      That will not be all bad. The Democrats have thrown the 2000 election in the face of the GOP for years, so one thing will come of that. They will have to shut their mouths about Bush getting the electoral votes of Florida and not the popular vote.

      Yes, one can find optimism in most everything if they look hard enough.

      • November 8, 2016 2:39 pm

        If Hillary wins, I hope Trump is mature (and sane) enough to urge the more fanatical Trumpistas to accept the results and refrain from violence. But, with Pat Riot, I suspect we’re in for a turbulent four years no matter who wins.

  34. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 7, 2016 10:40 pm

    Jay: Thanks for the cartoon link, some of them, like reasons to vote vs. reasons not to vote, were not really funny, but the ones that were funny were worth putting up with the ones that weren’t.

    I am not going to make a solid commitment, but I am going to state a “plan. My plan is to try to avoid all politics as much as possible tomorrow (I voted early, for Johnson) , particularly I want to avoid all that early analysis crud, “…oh it looks like 8 voters in exit polls voted for Trump in N.C. we are calling North Carolina for Trump, 6 people voted for Hillary in Idaho, we are now putting Idaho in play, yes Idaho is in play.) I really hate that garbage.

    So anyway, see y’all Wednesday night, presuming a Giant Meteor doesn’t clean the slate prior to that.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 7, 2016 11:02 pm

      It occurred to me today that a company could do a great business in cryogenically freezing people for six months to a year before the next election and thawing them out three days after it is over. I’d go for that if my wife, kids, and band would let me.

  35. November 9, 2016 12:22 am

    Can you believe there’s a chance we might be looking at a President-elect Trump in the morning? Incredible. Hillary overestimated her support in the Rust Belt. All those disaffected white working-class voters have been ignored by the Democrats for too long.

  36. November 9, 2016 3:06 am

    Now it gets bumpy. American Brexit.

    Worthwhile pursuits are usually not easy. No pain no gain.

    Many people will misunderstand this election. They’ll talk about things like racism, bigotry, misogyny…but those things are not at the bottom of what’s going on. They’ll focus too much on Trump. It’s about much more than Trump. Look at all the other Republican victories.
    Bumpy. I predict periodic interruptions of services such as Internet, phone, and even electricity, as the “Powers That Be” try to fight off changes.

    Did you ever catch a thief red-handed? They act surprised that you are furious that they are taking your stuff. It’s a strange phenomenon. They are appalled that you are tackling them to the ground and taking back your stuff. I suppose the Wall Street thieves and the Globalists thought their gravy train was well earned and would keep on going.

    A lot of Americans know “fairness” doesn’t truly exist, but they just want a certain “level of fairness”. The greed has gone too far.

    Jimmy Carter was an outsider in the 70s. Remember those long lines at the fuel pumps? He was given a a fuel shortage by some of the “Powers That Be” to bring him around.

    Remember how Bernie Sanders, smiling and fist in the air, vowed to stay in it all the way to the end, and then suddenly, frowning and head down, he said we must support Hillary? Well of course some influential people talked to him.

    All that “Hillary is a sure thing” propaganda, in so many forms, for so long. The “Mainstream Media” is a marketing tool. Well a lot of people didn’t buy it. A little more than half the country’s population didn’t buy it. The Mainstream Media offends me.

    Here we go. “40 years wandering in the desert.” It’s not going to be easy. Some people will yearn for their “comfortable slavery”. I predict the squeamish and the soft will have a rough time. Others will begin building the future. But first, a wall.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 9, 2016 7:33 am

      Of course Pat, the things that go wrong will be Their fault, built in irresponsibility from the get go. My kids have to live somehow in this mess you are in love with. Thank you very much.

      Signing out.

      • Pat Riot permalink
        November 9, 2016 10:29 am

        With a Republican House and Senate a lot could be about to go right. We will have to see how many road blocks and obstacles some of the progressive elites put in the way.

  37. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 9, 2016 3:35 am

    I hereby officially announce that my prediction that Trump will make a gracious concession speech was wrong. What it does appear to be clear is, compared to Mitt Romney, Trump will have fewer total popular votes than Mitt. Meaning, it wasn’t as much a win for Trump as it was the lack of enthusiasm, loss for Hillary.

  38. November 9, 2016 10:00 am

    I’ve never felt so ashamed and depressed to be an American.
    Worse, the term ‘American’ has lost its positive resonance.

    Time to reassess everything I assumed was true about this nation.

  39. November 9, 2016 10:15 am

    How did the pollsters and election modelers do?

    Polling is not a science.

    Another reminder: Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Richard Branson, and Larry Ellison are/were white males who didn’t take a college degree. Anyone want to talk about that systemic prejudice?

    America has taken a big step back–back to common sense.

    • November 9, 2016 4:37 pm

      “Another reminder: Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Richard Branson, and Larry Ellison are/were white males who didn’t take a college degree. Anyone want to talk about that systemic prejudice?”

      I’m confused: didn’t trump graduate from Wharton?

      But additionally, it’s a false analogy comparing Trump with those four guys.
      None of them ran for political office.

      They were/are smarter, and more generous.

      Three out of four (Gates, Branson, Ellison) have the title ‘Humanitarian’ alongside their biographical accomplishments – they have truly given generous amounts of money to charity. Jobs too is reported to have given large sums anonymously to fight AIDS in Africa during his life, and a $50 million donation for Stanford hospitals, to build a new children’s hospital.

      Trump, however, lied and/or exaggerated his charitable donations. Just as he will continue to lie about everything he does as president. You voted for him: you get what you deserve from here on out.

      • November 10, 2016 3:27 am

        Jay, I wasn’t comparing those guys to Trump. I wasn’t clear above. I was referring to that group that the media keeps referring to: white males without a college degree. I think this is a whole other variety of prejudice and discrimination that goes on in our country that isn’t addressed nearly enough: white males without a college degree or anyone without a college degree. The degree vs. no degree dividing line is over-used, misleading, and troublesome. Some of the most intelligent and capable people in the world chose a different path than college, and of course a college degree doesn’t guarantee a quality person, and the intelligence of many degreed persons is debatable. Too much misleading grouping in our society.

  40. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 9, 2016 11:06 am

    “Bumpy. I predict periodic interruptions of services such as Internet, phone, and even electricity, as the “Powers That Be” try to fight off changes.
    Did you ever catch a thief red-handed? They act surprised that you are furious that they are taking your stuff. It’s a strange phenomenon. They are appalled that you are tackling them to the ground and taking back your stuff. I suppose the Wall Street thieves and the Globalists thought their gravy train was well earned and would keep on going.
    A lot of Americans know “fairness” doesn’t truly exist, but they just want a certain “level of fairness”. The greed has gone too far.
    Jimmy Carter was an outsider in the 70s. Remember those long lines at the fuel pumps? He was given a a fuel shortage by some of the “Powers That Be” to bring him around.”

    This is why I call you a conspiracy theorist. Its because you are a conspiracy theorist. I note also that I mildly stated a few days back that you are anti-globalization and got a rebuke that I had you all wrong. No, I had you figured correctly, you just are not a straightforward speaker. Until of course your side wins. Then we finally get the truth “First a wall.” Never in all the times I pressed you on what it is that you actually want did you simply tell me the direct answer or mention they word wall, which would have been the honest and simple thing to do. That is what you do, you are purposefully unclear, and to be honest, you hide your meanings, beliefs and intentions and then you claim to be misunderstood. Bleh.

    “We will have to see how many road blocks and obstacles some of the progressive elites put in the way.”

    The “progressive elites” who fight back first and hardest is likely to be the majority of women who did not vote for trump. Nor did he win the popular vote. BTW you are also thinking in binary terms and over generalizing.

    Your posts today could not be more smug and ideologically fanatical, not a bit of graciousness in victory. Enjoy yourself today, but there will be resistance, yes, your knight is an authoritarian (liberty, Right!) and it won’t be easy, no. But the political system is still intact and conservative over reaching will be met with the pendulum swinging back just as liberal overreaching was.

    As another BTW, David Duke is a happy man today along with Ann Coulter, not all of us can accept that aspect of your glorious return to common sense. It may not be a big deal to you but it will have more to do with the reverse swing of the pendulum than wall streeters, globalists, progressive elites and your other bogeymen conspiracy figures.

  41. November 9, 2016 11:52 am

    GW, some of my positions have been unclear to you because, like the pollsters and many liberals in the media, you still don’t get it. Some of it is so foreign to you that you miss much of the nuance.

    Seriously, your views expressed earlier in this thread regarding immigration reminded me of positions that idealistic youth and teenagers have. Idealistic but not very practical.

    Even now you think some of our reality is “conspiracy theories”. One of the things that President Trump must do now is avoid being assassinated by some of the war mongers. Does that sound like conspiracy theory in whatever mindset you dwell in?

    I won’t waste my time going back and forth with you. Back when I taught underserved and disadvantaged individuals for the Dept of Labor, there were some who were “out of the scope of the program”.

    Honestly, I wish you and your family all the best.

    We Americans have a lot of real work to do, including me!

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 9, 2016 11:57 am

      “Even now you think some of our reality is “conspiracy theories”. One of the things that President Trump must do now is avoid being assassinated by some of the war mongers. Does that sound like conspiracy theory in whatever mindset you dwell in?”

      Yes.

  42. November 9, 2016 12:28 pm

    Well, there you go. It is a plausible contingency. If you wish to pin a label on Secret Service strategists and military strategists or private citizens who consider such things, that is your right as an American to form your opinions based on your life’s experience and your reasoning abilities. If it’s easier for you to think that people who consider such things do not also consider the very opposite, and many other contingencies, that is your right to do so.

    There’s a very nice commercial that aired last night for Pedigree pet foods, showing Hillary supporters and Trump supporters getting along. That’s some of the examples we need to see to drown out the divisiveness.

    Peace!

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 9, 2016 1:12 pm

      First of all, an election was held and a winner was determined. I do not respect the man, but I respect the office. Second, I will hope that somehow I have been very wrong and that trump is somehow going to do an acceptable job. I will NOT repeat the behaviors of overwrought conservatives who opposed all that Obama was trying to do from the get go. I will give the man and his policies a chance.

      No one would be happier than I to have, say, peaceable relations with Russia. But I believe that its your turn to be very naive. Putin, rejoicing today at having hacked our election, is an Soviet style expansionist who is now plotting how to rebuild the former Russian hegemony over eastern europe, Soviet Union II, and bring the very unfree Russian political system to a huge region, empowering other tyrants. Oh, not our problem, you say. That is naive. This situation will bite the entire world in the ass left unopposed given time. The bromance will be temporary and the disease will be more progressed by the time the US starts to react normally again. Its not a prescription for peace. I know, this is not your “program”. Yes, I am on a different one. Pence is too, the same one I am on, regarding Putin. You are being naive.

      trumps military advisors are not doves and you might want to hope that he is protected from them first of all if you worry about assassination by the Military Industrial complex.

      One of the few reasons I have to find any bright spot today is that I sincerely dislike the Clintons and won’t miss them. They can run their foundation all they want know without he right-wing witch hunt. The Dem party is clearly in a weakened state to have produced her as a candidate, (and the very idea of getting around the term limits by marriage was abominable) but the natural order of things is that total GOP control will bring oxygen to the dems and hopefully capable people will emerge.

      FIne with me about not seeking new trade agreements, but the existing one’s are in place. The wall will be a pathetic failure is my bet. Mexicans will not pay for it either. The world will not be a safer and more stable place because we take a temporary break from the world cop beat, not by a long shot.

      Conservatives had to endure the presidency of a man they could not stand the thought of. Now its my turn. That I accept. My daughters don’t though, so be prepared to face the wrath of the American Woman, trump’s attitude will not be forgotten or forgiven. Justice grinds slowly but exceedingly fine. Your side won the battle but the war is another matter, its 2 years till the next election.

      But, Peace right back at you.

  43. November 9, 2016 1:24 pm

    Boy was I wrong!!! Jay said I was reading all the wrong news outlets and listening to all the wrong news and he was right on.

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 9, 2016 6:56 pm

      And onward. Tom Friedman’s viewpoint may help the sore losers and winners: “While I’ve opposed the Trump candidacy from the start, I’ve never disparaged Trump voters. Some are friends and neighbors; they’re all fellow Americans. We should take their concerns seriously. But we should also demand that they be serious, that they draw distinctions between these two presidential candidates.”

      • November 10, 2016 1:01 am

        dduck…I have seen many comments on FB, on TV and heard others say that we must come together for the unity of the country. Obama said today something to the effect that we must all work together since we are all Americans.

        I also sw a post for Michael Moore that has over 300,000 “likes” and multiple “shares” and as part of that post he says “Those same bloviators (pollsters showing a Hillary win) will now tell us we must “heal the divide” and “come together.” They will pull more hooey like that out of their ass in the days to come. Turn them off. ”

        comment like this will not unify the country. The democrats will do the same to Trump as the GOP tried to do to Obama in 2010. “Make him a one term president”. The democrats will represent the 50% that support them and the GOP will support the 50% that support them. The divide will be greater after January than it is today and unity be damned. Getting elected is job one!

  44. November 9, 2016 2:12 pm

    Peace and cooperation are priorities now. Diversity can be a strength. It is a strength in nature.

    I don’t believe I ever expressed any opinions about containing or dealing with Putin and Russia. I believe you might be accusing me of being naïve for opinions I haven’t given. One might infer from your last post that there are two ways in dealing with Putin and Russia: continue current administration policies or have a temporary Bromance that results in Russian expansion. Maybe you are not saying that? But to do so would be somewhat “binary”, would it not?

    A ways back I said something like “such and such is not what the Founding Fathers intended…” and then Jay said something like “the Founding Fathers could never have imagined today’s highly technological circumstances” or something like that. True. That’s true. But some things do not change, such as Integrity and Trust. The U.S. has made many enemies in the world because certain forces have resulted in the U.S. saying one thing and doing another in the world. Speaking with a forked tongue. Trust has been shattered. Enough people are awake, within the United States and in countries around the world, and they don’t want to be lied to.

    Jack Nicholson in “A Few Good Men”: “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!”

    Yes, the people want what the leaders think is the truth. Because, brought out into the light of day, other more sustainable and humane options will present themselves to humanity.

    A toast to “sustainable and humane options”!

    Some of the people who will say global cooperation is not possible are some of the same people who said Trump could never be the Republican Nominee, or could never be President, or that cars will never replace horses, or that people will never want computers in their homes, or that man will never fly, or…

    • November 9, 2016 4:05 pm

      For perspective, Pat, after the Jack Nicholson character Col. Jessup makes the oft quoted “You can’t handle the truth,” statement he’s arrested and handcuffed in the courtroom. Turns out he’s no hero, but was responsible for getting a soldier under his command killed under unsaviorly circumstances. In fact, he was unable to tell the truth, as his unraveling under cross examination showed.

      The criticisms of Trump still stand: he’s dangerously unqualified to be President. As I stated MANY times, I don’t fear the message (I agree with concerns about unfettered immigration, distorted political correctness, slanted anti-cop BLM narratives, etc) but do fear the messenger. He’s UNTRUSTWORTHY. He’s going to continue to lie and distort the truth, as he has his entire business life; as he did throughout the campaign. He will lie through his teeth without hesitation if it helps him, and he will continue to do that as President. You can bet your life on that.

      I hope I’m wrong, but I doubt it. One early indication will be his promise to release his taxes after the election. I’m betting a full reveal never happens: maybe a partial adumbration of limited pages with paragraphs of blackouts; or some phony rationalization for withholding them entirely. And though it probably won’t come to public attention in my lifetime, I’m betting that the Trumps gets multitudes richer during his presidency; his kids will cash in on insider information and sweetheart deals from foreign governments in amounts that will make the Clinton Foundation donations seem piddling.

  45. November 9, 2016 7:22 pm

    Hey Jay, yes, yes, I’ve probably seen “A Few Good Men” about 4 or 5 times. Good movie in my opinion. Anyway, I was casually equating Colonel Jessup with our country’s war mongering and clandestine operations and lack of telling us the truth about what They are up to and why, yada yada. We don’t need to know the tactical secrets of operations, but we and the rest of the world should be informed of the overall strategies and the reasons etc. If it can’t be shared than maybe we shouldn’t be doing it. It’s time we elevate this aspect of humanity into the 21rst century. Transparency and all that. Sure, there may be some exceptions.

    You may be right about some of the things that transpire from here on out. I thought Trump’s victory speech was closer to the “regular guy” I’d wanted to see more glimpses of during the twisted campaign. One of the pundits explained Trump’s campaign along these lines (I’ve added to it):

    FDR learned how to use the radio for his fireside chats.

    Kennedy came across much better than Nixon on TV

    Obama rode an earlier wave of social media with the small donation thing and the spirit of millennials, etc.

    Trump understood “reality TV” including the attraction to the villain/anti-hero

    I still think and hope he’s the right kind of asshole to get some things done that are long overdue. I like when he said we’re going to build infrastructure that is “2nd to none”. I look forward to that. I also look forward to average citizens getting more involved. My wife’s grades school students have been buzzing about politics in unprecedented ways. They are asking good questions. I’m hoping civic activity continues making a comeback, especially to eclipse the growing negativity. We will see.

    • November 9, 2016 8:10 pm

      My wife is also a Middle School Art teacher, here in Los Angeles. The school is an Arts and Technology Magnet, which means the students are generally above average, and of course it’s ethnically diverse, with a good proportion of Hispanic students.

      My wife has just come home and said she had a troubling day. A few of her Hispanic kids told her they werent able to sleep last night after Trump was announced as President. Two said their mothers were illegals, and they were frightened the police were going to come and arrest them. One had illegal grandparents The kids are ‘anchor baby’ citizens, but with family members in jeopardy of removal, they’re flipping out

      I’m in favor of tightening the Southern border. I’d like less Hispanics admitted in the future, but I don’t want to round up people who have been here five years or more, and tearing apart families.

  46. November 9, 2016 9:17 pm

    Spoke to my sister in L.A. today. She called to get me to talk her off the ledge and help her say “President-elect Trump” without bursting into tears. Oddly enough, the people out there are upset.

    I’ll make a few predictions: law-abiding illegals won’t be rounded up, Roe v.Wade won’t be overturned, Gays will continue to marry and divorce, moderate Muslims will continue to live their lives without persecution. Bill/Hill will be able to spend more time running their charity and jetting off to the occasional speaking gig. That is, of course, provided that the FBI doesn’t make a criminal referral, now that the election is over. Maybe Obama will pardon her for any email-related crimes, before he leaves office.

    I agree with Pat – Trump may be just the kind of asshole to get some things done. And, with a GOP Senate and House, no obstructionist Democrats to worry about 🙂 (Jay, even Mark Cuban says to give him a chance!)

    • November 9, 2016 10:53 pm

      The best assessment I heard today was on Twitter:
      Americans opted for an asshole, not a vagina.

      As to Cuban’s gracious remark, Hillary’s was the same; reasonable people act reasonably; unlike the right Conservative spokespeople, who guaranteed to sabotage a Clinton presidency.

      You’re not going to like what you see come down on our shoulders from this group now in power. To maintain his credibility with the voters who elected him, Trump HAS TO try to build the Wall. He HAS TO round up and deport some large number of illegals. Otherwise his base will turn on him. Same for SCOTUS nominations.

      Bye bye Moderation.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 9, 2016 11:36 pm

        Jay, in my own mind I told myself not to argue with people today. Let the dust settle ect. So I’m violating my own advice. ..”He has to…..or his base will turn on him.” Neither part A or B of that is necessarily true. Trump listens to a beat of a different drummer, a drummer that may or may not be based in reality. My next statement is Hyperbole, but he may just say: “I never said we are going to build a wall.” -Obviously he isn’t going to say exactly that but the point is we don’t know what he will do. We also don’t know what his base will do, will they turn on him? Maybe, but for all we know, they may blame some boogey man for having stopped him from building that wall, and stick right with him. Yes, I can see the base ending up feeling bitterly betrayed by Trump, I can also see them blindly following an excepting any ridiculous excuse he offers for things. Goodness knows that a lot the voting public for decades have accepted the lame excuses from both sides of the aisle to stay loyal to their side of the aisle no matter how poor a job they have been doing.

        Rose: Great to see you again!

      • November 10, 2016 10:28 am

        So what you’re saying is Trump is a consummate liar, who lied to get elected, and will lie to his supporters about not following through on those lies.

        How comforting to know my assessment of that exact behavior profile during his campaign of lies was correct.

        We now have a pathological liar as president.
        Thanks to all of you who made that happen.

      • November 10, 2016 1:25 am

        Jay, I have heard a comment from someone who has worked closely with Trump for years and he made the comment that Trump is a master at reading the people and reading the environment. He is a master at honing a message designed for the people he is addressing. He made the decision early in the campaign to target the union workers (white middle class non-college working class voter). He heard them when they talked about jobs, about industry moving out of the country and taking jobs, about illegal immigrants coming to this country and living off others, unwilling to learn english and in some cases committing crimes, about business burdened by regulations and jobs losses due to regulations. He honed his message for that specific group of voters that the democrats thought were in their back pocket and ignored in the campaign and the GOP ignored in previous campaigns for the same reason. Many of these voters could be described as the “Red Neck” voters who have the personality of Archie Bunker and the language of Louis CK, but are hard working, honest Americans that just want a fair deal that they did not think they were getting and Trump offered that possibility.

        he expects Trump to now hone his messages in the future to all Americans and you may have seen that in his acceptance speech. It was reported he wrote most of that himself, unlike many of his campaign scripted speeches.

        I have a belief that the rounding up illegals, banning all muslim immigration and all the other extreme measures he proposed will be moderated in the honing process for meeting the needs of America, not just Republican middle class working citizens.

  47. November 9, 2016 10:28 pm

    Welcome back, Priscilla! May I take a break now? 🙂

    That is sad, unfortunate, and troubling, Jay. I think a lot of reasonable people will hope for some type of “grandfathered-in’ amnesty / path to citizenship that makes common sense. Let’s get our southern border under control, but let’s do something win-win-win for people already here who are already part of communities, etc.

    Often the best solutions can take care of two or more problems at once. Some veterans and others are out of work, so put them to work processing illegals/undocumented folks, but don’t have slow-moving bureaucrats running it. Instead find agencies from the private sector who know how to expedite/process relatively large groups of people. Put a goddamn concert promoter in charge. Set up the tents, move the people through. Let’s go people!

  48. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 10, 2016 2:45 am

    Ron: From Michael Moore’s post, “Bloviator”. That’s a new word for me. Prior to that, I would have just had to say “wind bag”, but now I have a word that sounds so much more intellectual and precise. Bye now! I need to go bloviate on a few other websites.

  49. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 10, 2016 7:34 am

    The trump cabinet, my dark view, which gremlin is palin?:

  50. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 10, 2016 7:40 am

    Obviously it would be childish to lose faith in America over an election, America is a big complicated thing. But maybe Priscilla (Welcome Back!) you could talk me down from that ledge. I am literally nauseous, our culture is going nowhere but down.

    • Anonymous permalink
      November 10, 2016 10:47 am

      Where is Dave when we need him to help with his statistics on what is actually better than people think?

    • November 10, 2016 12:48 pm

      Hey, Pat/GW/Mike, thanks ~ good to be back. Glad the election is over, and hopeful that the post-election freakout will soon abate.

      GW, you and I have discussed before, back in 2012, the bitter disappointment, depression, and fear of the future that settles upon those whose chosen candidate loses the election.

      I felt exactly this way after the re-election of Obama. I realize that it’s probably hard for many to believe that anyone could feel as depressed as Democrats now do over Trump, and I accept the caveat that the choices this year were uniquely and uniformly awful (even Gary Johnson was a terrible candidate ~ he had a real chance to lift the profile and ideals of Libertarian Party into the national consciousness, and he just didn’t seem to have it in him to do so). But millions did. And, honestly, Obama validated many of my fears, while, at the same time not bringing about the End of Times

      Still, Ron’s point about honing and re-honing a political message is going to be true of Trump, just as it would have been true of Clinton. Granted, the political blowback for dropping “The Wall” would probably be too great, so I expect that some sort of barrier will be erected at the southern border, although Trump did stop claiming that Mexico would pay for it some time ago ~ and his claim of Mexico paying was always based on lowering or eliminating the trade deficit, rather than demanding cash on the barrel head. The Wall merely became a way of sharply contrasting the political issue of open borders, which, as the released Goldman Sac’s speeches proved, was, in fact, Hillary’s position (and even she was not going to “throw open the gates” to unlimited immigration).

      The most realistic fear of those on the liberal side is that Trump will get certainly one, probably two SCOTUS picks and skew the Court to the right for another generation. My feeling on this is: 1) It is just as likely that he will choose a right-leaning moderate, someone like John Roberts, as a more strict constitutional originalist like Scalia. This is the fear of the NeverTrump right. 2) The capital-L Left truly wanted a left-leaning court that would essentially strip the Congress of its ability to legislate and undermine the Constitution in ways that would destroy our Republic, as we know it. Hillary was not going to nominate one of these justices either, but she had to tack left to gain the support of ex-Sanders backers, and, in doing so, lost some of her own moderate support. 3) A moderately right Court is not a bad thing. The moderate right Court that included Scalia handed down many decisions that were lauded by the moderate left (of, course, he dissented from most of them, but we still have Kennedy)

      At Trump will be able to knock a lot of heads together that need knocking. At worst, he will fail to “drain the swamp”, and be a failed president, leading to a Democrat victory in 2020. We’ve had many failed presidents. If Trump fails, the American electorate will punish him at the ballot box.

      • November 10, 2016 12:49 pm

        *At best,*

      • November 10, 2016 2:00 pm

        Priscilla, one thing about SCOTUS. Anyone that believes Trump can pick another Scalia and get them approved is living in Ricks nightmare. Only unless McConnell invokes the nuclear option will they be able to stop a filibuster and I really believe with everything McConnell has said about history, he will not destroy one of the senate’s rules like reid did to get something politically passed.

        If he will not invoke the nuclear option, then he will have to pick someone much more like Kennedy or Sandra Day “O’Conner and if that happens, the Democrats will have a difficult time blocking an appointment like that. Will they want to be come the obstructionist party and take that label off the GOP?

        And if one or two Kennedy’s or O’Conner’s are selected, I view that as a very good thing for years to come.

  51. dduck12 permalink
    November 10, 2016 12:39 pm

    Ron, I think your guy is about half right. Trump will probably skip the hard projects or do minimal work on them.

    • November 10, 2016 1:51 pm

      Or he may run the white house like a business and how Ronald Reagan conducted business. Develop a strategic plan, place individuals in positions to carry out those plans, provide them the resources to accomplish those plans and hold meetings on a regular basis to monitor the accomplishments.

      No one will know until it happens.

      • dduck12 permalink
        November 10, 2016 6:55 pm

        I don’t think he is a very good or honorable business person, but hey this is politics so who knows.

      • November 10, 2016 8:37 pm

        If you fill a glass with lye, hold it out over the carpet, and open your fingers maybe the acid lye will spread out perfectly in a thin non corrosive pattern when it hits the floor and clean the rug. Who knows.

  52. November 10, 2016 2:06 pm

    I find coming to this site much more relaxing than reading comments on Facebook. I just spent the last couple minutes paging through the new comments on FB. There were an overwhelming number of comments that either were downright hateful comments about the election, the winner or the winning party, or were innuendo of hate concerning those. There was one comment concerning God. If you want to know what is wrong with this country, that’s it!!!! Maybe if people would spend as much time sharing God’s word as they do the words of extremist on both sides of the isle, this country might be far better off. And for those that are not believers, there is some moral guiding principle in their life that they also can use to uplift lifestyle to a level were hate at any time is unacceptable.

    • November 10, 2016 4:33 pm

      But Ron, Trump is the one who degraded the discourse with hate and division.
      He’s the one who ratcheted up the obnoxious name calling – with other Republicans at first during the debates., and then unrelenting viciousness against ‘ Crooked Hillary’ and everyone else he could spew insults at. Now you’re suggesting everyone should forgive and forget his asinine behavior?

      Not me. We need to do whatever we can to get him out of office.
      A low life liar is still a low life liar, with or without the title President.
      Did you see the news release today, where the Russian Foreign Minister admitted he was in contact with Trump’s campaign the past few months? Trump and his cohorts swore that wasn’t true during the weeks leading up to the election.

      There is no benefit of a doubt here. A lying double talker was slimly elected on a platform of lies and deception. I’m not going to grin and bare it. #DumpTrump and #ImpeachTrump hashtags are already trending on Twitter. Anti Donald Trump protests spontaneously erupted in New York, DC, Chicago, California, Boston, Seattle, and other major cities Wednesday night, Today at my local Home Depot the wall on an abandoned building across the street was splattered with Fuck Trump graffiti. The anti Obama sentiment that followed his election was mild in comparison, from a narrower band of conservative right wingers. The crowds protesting yesterday were angrier, younger, gender balanced and mostly Caucasian: they reminded me of Vietnam Nam Era protestors; a movement that grew and persisted as a voting force.

      May the Force Be With Them!

      • November 10, 2016 4:59 pm

        And had Hillary been elected you and your liberal friends would have said they need to forgive and forget they were called Racist, demagogues, homophobes, and best baskets of deplorables. And that was 47%-48% of the population since she said 1.2 of them were deplorables, so there was a 50-50 chance they were one.

        So people like myself have had to live through 8 years of liberal crap. Now you can live through at least 4 years of what you will consider conservative crap. It’s your turn to find out how it feels for awhile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • November 10, 2016 6:56 pm

        As you know I am not a standard Liberal. And I was an Obama critic for both of his terms, strongly on racial politics and the Iran deal and Hispanic immigration – And other issues as well.

        If Hillary was elected I would have resumed my criticism of excessive PC feminist and black dogma. I would have pushed for Moderate status quo SCOTUS judges. I would have remained in favor of prohibiting admittance to all but a few Muslim refugees from Islamic nations where adherents teach strict Koranic doctrine. I would have pestered her for stronger support of Israel. I would have recommended that the operation of the Clinton Foundation(one of the World’s most successful and innovative philanthropic organizations) be turned over to the Gates Foundation or some other organization doing similar work, for the duration of Hillary’s presidency.

        If the Republicans had nominated a moderate candidate, with those views, who wasn’t threatening to stack the Supreme Court with anti abortion and anti gun control judges, who wasn’t trying to shove Christian doctrine down my throat, who didn’t have a history of unethical business practices, who was willing to be transparent enough with the American people to release his taxes in the face of so many allegations of hiding crucial information about his moral and ethical and business behavior, who didn’t grossly and constantly lower the standards of decency for public discourse, I certainly would have considered he/she suitable to vote for.

        Trump is an opportunist and conman of the worst order. Truly, at the core, he is a dispicable Pied Piper who will lead this country on a downward ethical spiral of lies breeding more lies.

        You God believing Christians and Jews know the danger of ignoring the Prophets of Doom. You’ve ignored the lamentation of numerous Wise Men who warned of the dangers to our nation should Trump be elected. I prophesize we all will pay for that perfidy.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 10, 2016 5:14 pm

        I am vacillating between taking the high road and giving the election winner a chance and being simply dead set against him. You make a convincing argument for the latter choice.

        The election is over, its a reset. There was an election the people voted more of them chose Clinton but trump won the electoral vote that is our system. But it doesn’t mean that one just wipes their mind clean of what they learned during the election. Certainly no one with a character as completely unfit as trump’s has been elected in my lifetime. Not even Nixon, the list of good and bad characteristics between Nixon and trump are distinctly in Nixon’s favor. If we accept trump it means that character simply does not matter, period, it only matter whether you are dem or gop. I don’t accept that.

        Someone has to run the country and he is the president. We can fight his ideas and the worst of his plans and values. Certainly the precedent the GOP and its base set from the get go of the Obama administration gives them no moral room to deny us that or complain without hypocrisy. I highly doubt that there will be any mass equivalent of the Rush Limbaugh phenomenon on the dem side, while there is no doubt that campus lefties will exceed the boundaries of even what can be said of a man like trump.

        So the pendulum will now be fighting to swing back, the levers of government belong to the GOP and trump but the energy of opposition to wrong will only accumulate on the other side of the spectrum. Probably it will overshoot, again, dratted human mass nature.

      • November 11, 2016 9:50 am

        The biggest threat to our personal liberties will come from this scumbag Trump stacking SCOTUS with anti separation of state religious Christian judges who will overturn Roe v Wade and interject their God views into constitutional law.

        https://secure.centerforinquiry.net/emailviewonwebpage.aspx?erid=1025616&trid=925f2d7b-f7f7-4aa8-9774-bf6160975a9d

      • November 11, 2016 2:48 pm

        1) Does It not take 60 votes to end a filibuster?
        2) Who thinks McConnell will pull the Reid trick and change the Senate rules after the GOP went ballistic that 200 years of senate policies, practices and history was being destroyed with the nuclear option?
        3) Who thinks the democrats will not filibuster “Scalia” type appointments and demand more centrist judges?
        4) Who thinks extreme views like Sotomayor, Kagan, Scalia, Thomas is worse than centrist like Kennedy, SDO, etc?

  53. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 10, 2016 2:53 pm

    Well as someone who has proven that his crystal ball is broken, anyone can take my gloomy thoughts with a big grain of salt:

    trump can buy popularity with debt. He can cut taxes and and raise spending, that will buy him some popularity and time. He will be laying the groundwork for the next financial crisis, but its so hard to sort out all the details of the causes of bubble bursting crisis events and he will likely be gone when it happens anyhow. So, its a win for him and someone else will have to clean it up and will catch most of the blame for doing so.

    As far as trump being the antidote to the evil wall street thieves, hmm, they are still rallying following his victory, Seems that he evil wall street elite thieves think that deregulation and big tax cuts are going to be happy events for them. The working class voters for trump have been taken if they were expecting trump to tilt the table away from the elite and towards them.

    The wall and the threat of trade wars are unlikely to be the magic that changes the lives of the working class people who voted trump in. Next election we are likely to find the democrats have solidified behind a similar list of nonsense to woo the working class, down with bankers up! with free stuff! Competing nonsense solutions for the problems of the lower economic tiers. If the bearer of the liberal nonsense answer is likeable next time, unlike Hillary, and trump does not produce a real economic change for the lower tiers, then the liberal nonsense solutions will be elected so they can fail too.

    Then there is foreign policy, which is a more serious problem with a trump presidency, but people don’t worry about foreign policy much and don’t understand much about it when they do worry, so until the crisis point is reached by the trump plan or lack thereof, ino one will pay much note. His team, as hinted thus far, will be 3rd-rate yes people.

    Race relations are sure not headed in upward trajectory by the victory of a candidate whose words and plans so cheer David Duke et al. Muslim Americans will feel resentment at higher levels, what will result from that, good things? Really? We will be more secure? Meanwhile we will be rounding up and deporting millions. A beautiful picture.

    Finally. the man himself is simply disgusting and we have to listen to his baby talk as the new presidential standard for 4 years. Imagine the incoherent trump state of the union message, etc.

    I just want to puke.

  54. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 10, 2016 5:17 pm

    I am waiting to hear Mike really weigh in, he is a wise, calm, benevolent soul, much needed here and now.

  55. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 10, 2016 6:29 pm

    Perhaps some of these are hoaxes, most are likely not. This is reality. trump did not explicitly ask for this, but his idea have turned up the acceptance of this stuff all the same and done little to turn it off.

    I’m sorry, Ron, you know how I appreciate and respect you but being possibly called a deplorable if you choose to self identify with that is pretty damned lite compared to the stuff some other groups put up with. Real shit is happening, really bad dangerous racist shit. No one can just ignore the connection to trumps message, its the far tail of the trump follower bell curve of behavior, but it is the trump bell curve all the same. If conservatives have the values I would like to think they have they will scream louder even than the liberals at this wretched expression of the trump world of ideas they will be publicly loudly furious and make it clear.

    View story at Medium.com

    Day 1 in Trump’s America

    Donald Trump was elected president last night. The reaction to that news today has not been good. Especially for people of color and women, Day 1 was all about the increased likelihood that they will be subjected to hate speech, hate crimes, and the kind of stuff that points to really dark days ahead. For the sake of the documenting events that appear to be the result of the hatred Trump’s campaign has fomented, here’s what Day 1 in Trump’s America looked like.
    A swastika and the words “MAKE AMERICA WHITE AGAIN” (seen above) were spray painted on a baseball dugout in Wellsville, NY (p. ~5,000). A black baby doll was also found with rope around its neck in an elevator on campus at Canisius College outside Buffalo, NY. — The Buffalo News
    Campus police at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette received a report that a female UL Lafayette student was attacked and robbed by two males, one allegedly wearing a white Trump hat. Her wallet and hijab were stolen. — The Daily Advertiser
    The student-run newspaper at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette found phrases like “FUCK YOUR SAFE SPACE” and “BUILD WALL” tagged around campus. The University is investigating. — The Vermillion, The Daily Advertiser
    A reporter for CBS North Carolina posted a photo of a wall in Durham, North Carolina where the words “BLACK LIVES DON’T MATTER AND NEITHER DOES [sic] YOUR VOTES” were spray painted. — Derrick Lewis, CBS North Carolina
    A swastika and the words “Seig Heil 2016” were spray painted on a storefront in South Philadelphia. The Anti-Defamation League issued an official statement in response to the incident, saying that “while we view this as an isolated incident, we cannot allow this behavior to become routine. Everyone has a role to play in combating bigotry — we must advocate, educate and investigate until hate is no longer welcome in our society.” — Philly.com, The Anti-Defamation League
    Also in South Philadelphia, the words “TRUMP RULES” and “TRUMP BLACK BITCH” were spray painted on an SUV. — Philly.com
    A student in Albuquerque, New Mexico says a “Trump supporter” tried to pull off her hijab, and that the incident is under investigation by her university. — Twitter
    A woman at San Jose State University had her hijab pulled so hard that it choked her. SJSU sent out a University-wide email. — Twitter

    much more in the link.

  56. November 10, 2016 8:55 pm

    Well there are approximately 1.5 million people in Philadelphia. Unfortunately, a few people spray-painted some racist things. I wish they didn’t. There are about 320 million people in the United States. All of the hate-related incidents are regrettable, but I believe they are mathematically a very, very small percentage of Americans.

    But now we get a glut of regurgitated info choked with click-bait. People with NO journalistic credentials can get paid per click. I’d bet that In the majority of U.S. states there were no protests.

    Also, there has to be some percentage of the protesting that is questionable regarding its legitimacy. Fire chiefs have been caught setting fires so they can put them out. People photo shop celebrity heads onto naked bodies, etc. etc. etc. Being paid per click, I KNOW there are people VERY capable of spray-painting something very timely and provoking so that they can photograph it, churn out an article with 3 or 4 typos, and post it to get clicks. That’s the kind of inflammatory world we’ve been living in since well before President-elect Trump.

    Brian Black tweeted: “I hope Donald Trump is a good President. Wanting him to fail is like wanting the pilot to crash the plane we are all on.”

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 11, 2016 10:01 am

      “Well there are approximately 1.5 million people in Philadelphia. Unfortunately, a few people spray-painted some racist things. I wish they didn’t.”

      Sort of mildly nice sentiment but it misses the point that these real white supremacist people are sure that trump is supporting them and he has done little squash that idea. He could do that right now, really, really hard and clear, but that would involve him criticizing people who support him to help people who as a group don’t support him. It would be a strong indication that he actually has some previously hidden presidential character. It would possible help to ease the coming race war. It would make people like me a lot more likely to give him a chance, if it were to be a really strong devastating statement.

      Bets that he will do it?

      • November 13, 2016 7:38 am

        “He could do that right now…”

        I agree with you that it is important to squash the hatred and the hate groups, squash it top-down and bottom-up.

        Trump began contributing to the healing process in his victory speech, talking about coming together and reaching out to the other side, etc.

        President Obama has contributed to the healing process by emphasizing the peaceful transition.

        “He could do that now, really hard and clear…”

        More could be said, more directly by Trump. I’ll agree with that. I think he will. He wants to be the greatest American President. He seeks advice from smart people surrounding him.

        The liberal media is not helping. It’s fanning the flames.

    • November 11, 2016 10:09 am

      He’s going to crash the plane.
      Hopefully it’s in a less deserted place than a city filled with skyscrapers.

      • Pat Riot permalink
        November 13, 2016 7:43 am

        The plane was already in a nose dive. Trump is going to have some balls and find the right people to fly the plane.

  57. Pat Riot permalink
    November 10, 2016 9:13 pm

    Just about EVERYBODY, left, right, and center, has been complaining about government bureaucracy and inefficiency for decades. Now we have the most outside of outsiders as President-elect. He says he wants to re-build infrastructure, get our economy moving. He’s no orator. He’s no philosopher. His character in many ways is not even as good as the average man or woman. But the obnoxious cad builds skyscrapers. He already has his own frigging plane. He has a grotesque ego. He wants to look good. He wants the country to look good. I say give him a chance, an “outside chance”.

  58. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 10, 2016 11:22 pm

    Jay:10:28 am – Yes, I agree. Trump, IMO is a consummate liar, and unfit to be president. Oh, for someone with integrity! I think Bernie Sanders policies were insane, but I would have voted for Bernie rather than Trump because I believe Bernie is a man of integrity. Hillary, however, is also a proven liar, and as a bonus she has a proven track record of a proclivity towards military intervention. There was no way I was going to support one liar to stop another liar.

    Ron: You mentioned God. There is a Bible text that one of my Facebook friends posted that I thought was very appropriate. It is 2nd Timothy chapter 2 verses 23 and 24. It is advice that I too frequently fail to follow. Essentially it advises to avoid arguing about ridiculous, ignorant stuff.

    GW: We still have a society that produces people like Dylan Roof and the murderers of James Byrd Jr. We also have people like Tawana Brawley and accusers of the Duke Lacrosse team. I don’t see a cure for either, but we aught to promote peace where we can, and vigorously prosecute those who violate the rules when we can’t.

    Pat: I’ve heard the opposition graciously say” “Give Trump a chance”. On a practical level, there is not much for me to do but allow him his chance. I admit I would like to see a more secure southern boarder. But other than that, the less he does, the better, IMO.

    Let me ask everyone, who benefits from a work strike? The workers or management and owners? The answer is of course both sides are hurt unless one side or both are being unreasonable and the pain of loss of production and pay pushes people to a sensible agreement. Perhaps a non-functioning government will knock some sense into politicians and the people who elect them. Then again, I tried pouring a cup of lye evenly on my carpet and it didn’t work, Jay!! My carpet is ruined! That was a terrible idea Jay! Jay!!!!!! 🙂

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 11, 2016 9:32 am

      Thank you mike, you have never disappointed me and I am thinking you are unlikely to ever disappoint me. A pillar of calm reason. Can’t claim that I am.

    • November 11, 2016 1:27 pm

      The carpet metaphor was meant to be ironic, Mike, as in hoping Trump will reform his character deficiencies is as unlikely as the dropped lye not ruining the carpet.

  59. November 11, 2016 1:04 am

    Liberals are freaking out all over social media, protesting and burning Trump in effigy on city streets, crying and “mourning” for the loss of the Republic, and screaming for the end of the electoral system that has served the nation well for over two centuries, just because, this time, it didn’t work out in their favor (there’s a simple explanation for Hillary’s razor thin vote margin, of course ~ out of more than 120 million votes cast, she leads by less than 200,000…a margin that can be explained by California alone).

    The hashtag #NotMyPresident is trending on Twitter, as liberals bravely take a stand against the candidate, now President-elect, who won, fair and square, by wailing that they voted for someone else. And they don’t want to be conciliatory. That’s only for the other side,you know. When Republicans lose,well, by God, they need to suck it up, otherwise they’re racist. When Democrats lose, it’s because the system failed!

    Raging cry-babies, if you ask me.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 11, 2016 9:30 am

      Raging crybabies those liberals are in fact (some of them, you give the impression you think they are a monolithic group) I won’t argue. If you want to focus on that the campus brand in particular will never disappoint you.

      Freaking out is generally a bad idea, we should all be like those test pilots who are calmly communicating with the ground crew and trying one more thing up to the moment of impact and death.

      What I have against your post is that it leaves so much of the worst stuff out.

      Liberals freaking out on social media are about 1/1000th of our problem right now.
      Not to defend them but they are no further advanced than certain conservatives were at this point 8 years ago and the reasons for concern about trump dwarf those that conservatives had about Obama during their early spectacular Rush limbaugh led meltdown. Obama was inexperienced and wildly naive and he won the popular and electoral votes. trump is a self declared sexual predator, a sleazy trump university con artist, a mentally unstable man whose ally Gingrich described his dominant side, little donald as frankly pathetic. The Russian FSB worked mightily and rather openly with Assange to help put him, that is part of the “simple” explanation that you neglected to mention, and today they are running nude pictures of our new first lady on their state TV stations because they believe that our new president likes that and will be favorably disposed to them because of it.

      So, I admire your calm avoidance of freaking out and you are welcome to spend the next four years focusing on the antics of liberal activists, and they will never disappoint you either, if that is what is most significant to you among the potentially hazardous events of our new time.

      But both of our parties are broken and have mostly absurd ideas as plans and our president is an unstable sociopath, so I focus on that and I can’t fucking sleep.

      • Anonymous permalink
        November 11, 2016 10:12 am

        GW: again this is Mike Hatcher. In all deference to your beliefs. I would still like to offer advice from Matthew 6:27. “Worrying doesn’t make you any taller.”

      • November 11, 2016 10:30 am

        GW, I don’t believe that Donald Trump is an unstable sociopath. As I’ve mentioned in previous posts, my husband had many interactions with Trump and, more often, his direct reports, back in the day, the Donald was a mere business tycoon. Of course, Trump was famous, even back then, but he was universally admired and respected within the very rough-and-tumble NY construction business, where most people rise to the the top by, shall we say, less than pristine behavior. Trump was considered someone who could face down the organized crime and union thugs without buckling to their demands.
        I think that has probably served him well in his political journey so far, and likely explains why his behavior is often less than gentle or politically correct.

        He is flamboyant, loud, gauche, often rude and certainly not politically correct. But he has achieved what can only be described as a political miracle, and he has done it without George Soros or the Koch Brothers.

        Is he pure as the driven snow? Certainly not, but nor is Obama, and nor are the Clintons. Far from it, despite Jay’s paeans to Hillary’s goodness and light.

        He has offered an olive branch to the other side, signalling that the long campaign is over, and that it’s time to start working together. He has already reached out to Chuck Schumer, another New Yorker with whom he has worked many times over the years, and he is approaching the transition of power in a professional way.

        Americans of good will need to give the man a chance.

        (That said, if he redecorates the Oval Office in gold leaf and stone tiling, it’s all over for me!)

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 11, 2016 12:56 pm

        Priscilla, sorry buut you have been all over the map with his character, depending on the chances of the GOP. I ‘m with the priscialla who called him a pig. I also have a relative via an ex-wife who dealt with him over trump university. He is a fraud. You are welcome to not believe that he is a sociopath or mentally unstable,despite all the evidence to the contrary.

        Don’t be too quick to judge us liberals, there was very little of that good will extended to Obama,by your side 8 years back and trump himself extended no goodwill to the election process until he won. He and the GOP do not get to complain now about the reaction to his election from the opposition.

        I want the best for my country, by winning in this way trump has set the new standard and this wretched election is the new model. He may surprise me by being a good president in spite of being a proud sexual predator, pathological liar, con artist, and a frankly pathetic egomaniac, somehow that may be what is needed?!? but don’t blame the opposition for griping about his character, ideals and plans if he turns out to be more Mussolini than Reagan.

        Nobody here is stupid, no good will would have gone to Clinton, none. Throw her in jail! Impeach her starting day 1. That is what your side gave, its what it should receive. trump has piles of baggage, it should be looked into carefully. Tax returns? trump u scam? Accusations of sexual assault? What you think, you guys get a different treatment? Again, nobody here is stupid.

      • November 11, 2016 2:19 pm

        I get what you’re saying, GW. But I’m not saying that I don’t have concerns about his character. I do. Character matters, and the reason that I have been opposed to the Clintons from the start of this is because of their uniquely long and terrible record of lying, abuse of power, indifference to sexual abuse, willingness to use American military power in haste, etc. In short, their bad character. (And, if you want an example of someone making millions off of a phony university, look no further than the Clinton’s $17 million haul from Laureate Education, a phony college of the worst kind…not saying 2 wrongs make a right, mind you)

        Much of what we have learned about Trump’s character has been his crude and unacceptable language and attitudes toward women, and his tendency to react angrily and vindictively to those who attack him. And those are not good things. But, in my mind at least, they pale in comparison to Hillary’s character flaws. And, although I appreciate the genuine efforts of those who believed that Hillary’s experience and steadiness outweighed the concerns about her dishonesty and abuse of power, it was not enough for me to change my mind.

        In many ways, the Democrats crying wolf, by smearing and attacking John McCain and Mitt Romney, came back to haunt them in this election, as Republican voters simply ignored the attacks, and voted on the issues. Being called racist, homophobic, xenophobic and misogynistic wears thin, after hearing it for 8 years, and knowing that its’s not the truth. I think that that accounts for much of the failure of Hillary’s strategy to make Trump seem unacceptable. That, and the fact that she never made a positive case for herself. Part of that was not her fault…she had to tack hard left to get the Bernie supporters, and then lash herself to Obama’s unpopular policies in the general.

        The irony is that, although Obama’s policies have been extremely unpopular, Obama himself has remained extremely popular. But it turned out that the Democrat coalition was really Obama’s coalition, and not transferable to Hillary.

    • November 11, 2016 2:32 pm

      No one to blame other than the parents that raised kids thinking they should get a trophy no matter if they won, lost or tied. Universities are providing safe spaces for students that are offended and upset by this election. Students are demanding safe spaces if the university does not set one up. BOO HOO!!!WTF are we raising? Would you hire someone like these idiots to work and run your company? No wonder CEO’s and Chairmen of Boards are recommending moving plants overseas. Who wants to put up with the people like these that are filling the jobs they have?

      My generation got pissed off because men were being sent to a war that was unjust and run by politicians, not the military. We demonstrated because we wanted our men home and many of those that demonstrated actually ended up in the service of our country in one service organization or another because we were not the spoiled brats like parents have raised today.

      Every day my belief that our young should be required to spend some time in support of our country through military service grows stronger when I see self entitled whiners being so self centered like they are acting now. Wouldn’t it be wonderful for all our young to have to spend 8-10 weeks with a marine drill sergeant in San Diego or Parris Island? Maybe they would grow up?

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 11, 2016 3:03 pm

        Ron, I promise I’m not going to tangle with you on the mandatory service requirement. However kids of a certain age are naturally what we might call manic-depressive. I have tried and failed to find a source of information from something I saw years ago on one of these History or National Geographic type shows. But I do remember they claimed to have ancient tablets written about “common stuff” I forget if it was hieroglyphs or cuneiform, but the point was that people were complaining that young people “today” (thousands of years ago) were so disrespectful of their elders, not like the prior generation. Perhaps some young people are wild and angry at a time when they have a legitimate reason to be upset, or they may not have a valid reason, but I put the way they act as pretty typical in either case.

      • November 11, 2016 3:26 pm

        Mike. I understand completely what you are saying about each generation. In my lifetime it was a singer that had the audacity to sing like a black man and shake his ass on stage. It was long hair and pot that was going to be the end of our country as we had it back then. And before that in the 20’s it was the illegal booze, the “flapper” girls and their low moral standards. I get all that.

        But have you ever seen or read about a time that the young felt as entitled as they do today? Did any generation believe the government should pay for a college education? Did any generation believe they should not have to work at a summer job to help pay for some of their “wants”. Was there a generation that expected their parents to buy them a new or very late model car when they got their drivers license? And I could add a bunch more “Have you ever’s” to this list. Look at my voter makeup comment and you will see some support to what I am talking about. 62% of the rural voters supported Trump. And what is the largest difference between rural and urban America? To me it is work ethic.

        I know fully well that my thoughts about military service has no chance whatever and is just a bunch of hot air from an old man that many would call senile. I understand that. But damn, I sure would like to see these snot nosed brats under the control of those that know what it means to work hard and earn what you have for a few weeks and then maybe they would have a completely different perspective on life.

    • November 13, 2016 1:37 pm

      Indeed they are. I bet over half of my candidate selections over the years have lost. Never once did I think to go trash someone’s car to soothe my upset. Losing is losing.

      Deal with it you youngins’.

      • November 13, 2016 6:09 pm

        Overall there’s been few acts of vandalism at the Trump protests since he was announced the winner.

        Yesterday here in LA there was a massive protest march, of thousands of people, that lasted for hours, with no arrests, no apparent destruction of property. I watched a twenty minute video of the passing Protestors, many with children and dogs. I was surprised at the mix of marchers, young and old, racially mixed but with a high number of white woman. This Liberal demographic is not going away. trump will make certain of that with his reflexive Twitter idiocies, which he has already resumed. President Twit is a good name for him: jerkiness is embedded in his DNA.

  60. Anonymous permalink
    November 11, 2016 10:06 am

    Jay: I agree with you that a”zealous Christian ” government is a real danger to personal freedom. It would be ironic that it came from such a worldly character as Trump, but history is full of ironies. This will post as anonymous but this is Mike Hatcher

  61. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 11, 2016 1:11 pm

    Here is a golden chance for trump to be absolutely clear. He could come down on this like a ton of bricks, like he did, say on Clinton. Will he? I predict a mild or no reaction. I’d love to be wrong.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/11/kkk-group-plans-donald-trump-victory-parade-in-nor/

  62. November 11, 2016 3:12 pm

    I find the makeup of the Trump coalition very interesting.
    53% men
    42% women
    58% white
    8% black
    29% Hispanic
    51% without HS diploma
    41% income below 30K
    62% rural voters
    35% Urban voters
    53% aged 45 and up
    42% aged 30-44

    I these numbers I see a lot of traditional democrat voters. Hispanic went for Trump with almost a third voting for him even though he was called a racist. Word is the legal hispanics are almost as upset with the illegals as conservative whites given the fact the illegals compete for the same jobs they want and drive down wages since many work for cash, thus reducing all the government taxes and regulations. More than 1/2 of the voters did not have a HS education. Who would have thought that group would have supported Trump? They usually support big government and government programs. And last 42% of the women? REALLY? After all that was said about his treatment of women? And then the fact he was running against a woman?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37922587
    I used this web site as I thought a foreign press would be more objective than Fox or one of our other media sites when presenting numbers.

    Looking at these numbers, I think the extreme dislike that people developed for Hillary while she was first lady continues today and that played a huge part in anyone over 45 that disliked Trump from changing party affiliation and voting for her. Along with the fact there are a great number of blacks that thinks she talks big, but offers no solutions to there issues.

  63. Anonymous permalink
    November 11, 2016 4:26 pm

    Ron, Mike here.. I think you made some valid points. The question then becomes why? I think the answer is our societie’s wealth and opulence. Even the poor in our country today get food, shelter, and education that would probably take the breath away from someone a thousand years ago. Image someone from Pax Romana walking with one of our “poor” on food stamps in a grocery store, electric lights and air conditioning. It might tempt even a king of that age to switch places with one of our poor.

  64. dduck12 permalink
    November 11, 2016 4:27 pm

    As a relative newcomer, I would like to compliment you guys. Both sides of an issue present intelligent, sometimes witty, respectful of the other side remarks- although they sometimes are a little long winded for someone that doesn’t buy green bananas any more. The vitriol on other “moderate” sites is palpable; PLEASE keep up the good work.

    BTW, as one who is constantly using the “kids today” meme, I think the killer is/are electronic devices because kids/people are tuning out from the real world.

    • November 11, 2016 4:59 pm

      “BTW, as one who is constantly using the “kids today” meme, I think the killer is/are electronic devices because kids/people are tuning out from the real world.”

      I can understand being ignorant of what is actually happening around you when you are constantly isolated by electronic devices, but can that really answer the question as to why they think society owes them a free college education and parents owe them extravagant expensive items like late model cars and the latest iphone before it even hits the market? Does that answer the question as to why they need a “safe space” from reality when something happens where they are on the side that is not the chosen course of action?

      Maybe what we need to do is fund a dome over a huge portion of the western USA and anyone that wants to be in a “safe space” can go there and live out their lives with the collective providing for all their needs and wants. To me, the liberal side of America is beginning to look like the aliens in Star Trek, The new Generation called the Borg. They could not think for themselves without all their minds being connected and when one was eliminated, it took sometime for their thinking to regenerate as a collective. I see that in many university students today.

      • November 11, 2016 10:01 pm

        Yes to most of your entitlement criticisms.
        No to the college criticism.
        If qualified, all Americans should have access to advanced education.
        Most of the industrial nations do that now.
        Included should be higher education for those who want to pursue careers in mechanics – auto, airline, robotics etc.
        An educated populace is as important to our population as a well trained military.
        I’m sure you agree.

      • November 12, 2016 1:06 am

        I agree with the comment about well educated populace and well trained military. I do not agree with the collective paying for the education. No one understands the value of anything unless they have some skin in the game and with college it is money.

        Now I will agree there is some need for means testing assistance. If you need assistance then hard to fill careers will be part of a system where the student receives a certain amount for college (they will also have to contribute some part themselves and show they are trying to earn or fund some of the expense) and then after graduation when they agree to live and work in an area where there is a need for their profession part f the loan is forgiven. For each year of loan forgiven, they will work one year in that profession in that area and the state and federal government will pick up a proportional part of the cost.

        This allows for jobs that need people to get filled, the students get assistance and the population pays for some of it through taxes. For students attending Harvard and getting a political science degree or a lawyer degree and graduate with 200K in loans, pay for that yourself. We don’t need anymore lawyers or politicians!!!

      • November 12, 2016 10:39 am

        $200k at Harvard? More like half a mil.
        And tuition for a 9-month academic year at public UCLA is $13,000 a year for California residents… For private state universities it’s $30,000 and higher. USC is close to $50,000 for in-state tuition. And that doesn’t include books, or off campus living expenses.

        Why is higher ed in the European democracies so much less?
        Like Germany for instance, with yearly tuition fees averaging less then 2k ?

        Public Universities in France are even less expensive; private universities average about $4-$6k per year

        In EU-EEA member countries Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, etc – tuition is free.

        .

      • November 12, 2016 3:21 pm

        I will try to keep this as short as possible. 2 reasons.
        1. Easy access to loans.
        2. Easy access to loans = More money to spend due during school years
        3. Universities see students with more money.
        4. Students with more money = ability to raise university salaries and spending.
        5. Increased University spending = required increase in tuition cost
        5. Required increase in tuition cost = increased tuition.
        6. Increased tuition = more need for loans.
        7. More need for loans = additional access to loans.
        8. Go to step 2

        And this formula can apply to many different situations like medical care where you replace “loans” with “insurance”

        Reason #2
        European countries are much closer to socialism than we are. They have a much higher tax rate than we do. France taxes income between 26K and 72K at 30%. In addition, they have a value added tax of 20% (like our sales tax in the states). England taxes income up to this same 72K at 28%. They also have a VAT of 20%. Germany is much closer to the USA in income tax rates, but also has a 19% VAT. The USA rates on income up to 72K is 20% and out sales tax rate vary by state ranging from 9.45% in Tennessee to -0- in Florida. So when you add 10% plus to all products sold in the country to their cost plus another close to 10% in income tax, you can afford to give free education and free healthcare.

        The question is if you, me and 200 million other wage earners want to pay 10%+ more in taxes. I suspect almost 75% of the voters would have a hemorrhage if we added 20% more taxes to our current rates to pay for free education and free healthcare, but I could be wrong

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 12, 2016 3:37 pm

        Reason 3, they put most those programs in place in the aftermath of WWII when everything was in ruins and they had the freedom to start fresh. That is the upside of catastrophe, you get to start fresh. I would not wish that on us.

        Plus, I did some research on those free programs and how many European kids go on to college and the answer is that it is a very, very complicated picture depending on what country and what you call college. Almost impossible to understand and generalize about in my experience.

        Just look up for example the German system and if you can figure out its complexity you are a better man than I.

        One thing about the US you can go to some kind of a college at almost any age, and in Europe you had better be a good HS student or your fate is pretty much settled. I benefitted from the US system because I matured late.
        A lot can be done at low cost here if you don’t require the top schools. Do well in a cheap (sometimes almost free) state college and score well on GRE exams and the sky is the limit for grad school. This I know from experience.

  65. November 11, 2016 5:54 pm

    I’d like to weigh in on the discussion about today’s entitled youth. It seems that Mike and Ron both agree that the generational thing about “kids today” goes way, way back several thousand years or more. Something about breaking away from parental rule and asserting one’s adulthood and being slightly different, or whatever. But I think I agree with Ron that “youth troubles” have made an unprecedented leap in recent years.

    I look at it the following way: if you took a fairly well-adjusted kid (whatever that is) from back in the 1950s, and exposed him to a grisly murder, well then he’d lose some of his innocence and his “aw golly Mr. Smith can I help you carry those packages” that we knew back in the day. Well I say one of the factors today is that kids are exposed to SO much, that they’ve got a sort of PTSD. Sure, there are plenty of exceptions, but I’m amazed how many American youth arguably in the prime of their life are dejected, depressed, despondent, etc.

    I think some percentage of the poor work ethic is connected to that PTSD from long-term exposure to crap.

    I didn’t edit this, just posted on the fly, so forgive my lack of eloquence. There’s something else I want to SCREAM about, but I didn’t want to re-direct the discussion. Thx, Pat.

    • November 12, 2016 12:50 am

      PR..I guess we will never know, but i can’t buy into your PTSD being the cause of the entitlement youth. There are too many that grow up in families that have a different method for raising children and they are not the ones you see having a shit hemorrhage when the universities will not bow down to the every needs and wants. Jay lives in the world where you give the kids everything they want, you give them trophies for just showing up, you do not expect them to work in the summer, you do not expect them to work when they attend college to help pay for their “wants” while parents pay for the “needs” and you expect the collective to pay for their education so they can buy whatever crap they want. News reports indicate that 15% to 20% of student loan money is not spent on education, but on cell phones, cars, clothing and relaxation (bars, girls, etc) I live in a world where kids are expected to earn what they want to spend for dates, electronic games, gas for the car and other things that make them more attentive to money and what things cost. They are expected to work to help offset some of the cost of college if they can not afford it. I do not believe in awarding people for just showing up, they need to earn it. And now I have thee kids that are in their 30’s, basically debt free except for house payments and have no patience for what is happening on campuses today.

      So in Jay’s world when they find that their presidential candidate loses, they get a safe space in the university where they can go, cry, complain and have someone stroke their backs and tell them “don’t worry dear, everything will be fine, we will protect you”. In my world they accept the fact that our election is what it is, that people have differing views, that they will vote differently, that the founding fathers set up the electoral vote to preclude a handful of states from dominating an election at the expense of a larger number of smaller states and they accept they need to work to make a difference themselves. In Jay’s world everything is free to them until they graduate (without student debt because you and I paid for it) and in my world there is no free lunch (Check out where that came from, you will be surprised)

      Its called conservative V liberal, plain and simple. The values of each are represented in the following link and universities that support liberal programs, but block any conservative ideas or speakers when kids complain.
      http://www.okwu.edu/blog/2015/11/this-is-not-a-day-care-its-a-university/

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 12, 2016 8:40 am

        Ron, You are ignoring some hard truths about the trump team values. Look at Bannon, does he have your values? If you does, then I have completely misunderstood you all along. I think that actually I have understood you pretty well and I think that when you consider Bannon carefully, a major member of the trump team, and the KKK marches and church burnings and swastikas you will see why people cannot accept that this has happened.

        College students and lefty radicals will behave stupidly and even break things and that is disgusting, counter productive (and breaking things is criminal) but the root cause is there for a complete rejection of the obscene idea that the Bannon breitbart alt right is a part of the trump white house. That is worth deep deep anger. This is going to spiral downward if trump himself does not stop it. Kids are kids. Adults are supposed to be adults.

      • November 12, 2016 2:31 pm

        GW. I got into discussions many months ago about kids today (and even adults) that are spoiled. These discussions on this site took place even months before Trump became a candidate. So what I am saying today has nothing to do with the election or the outcome of the election. It has all to do with how kids today react to the negative situations that take place around them. It has all to do with how our kids are being raised today compared to past generations.

        With that said and nothing more on that subject since I have covered it many times and it should be clear as to what I think of many of the kids today, please remember that I said I was not voting for Trump nor Clinton, that I was voting for Johnson because he represented my moral and personal positions. Honesty ,trustworthiness and most of his political positions. And that did not change when I walked into the voting booth. I was chastised by almost everyone from the left (you are wasting your vote) to the right (you and your kind are electing Clinton) and those are the nice comments.

        So the issue today comes down to how we react to the outcome of the election. Do we cry, pout, riot and destroy personal property? Do we write hateful comments on facebook and tweeter? Do we make up lies and post them on social media to incite others to march and riot? Or do we act like adults, come together as intelligent individuals, identify why the parties were so asinine stupid as to present the two worst candidates ever to the voters to choose for president, identify what the VOTERS want in candidates and parties and provide that as a choice next election?

        There was two issues in this campaign with Trump. What the press said he said and what the people heard compared to what he said. I do not accept what he said, the racism, the sexism, the bigotry and that is why I did not vote for him. But I do support what I heard. National security, immigration control, tax cuts for the middle class and reforms to bring money back to the country. Those are two very different things and the people who voted for trump voted for what they heard, not what he said.

        And Clinton, those voting for Trump did not know what she said, what they heard and which of the two to believe. I did not vote for her since she was a bitch in the 90’s, she is the same bitch still today and an untrustworthy bitch at that.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 12, 2016 3:26 pm

        Ron P, one of your better post and that is saying something.

        I particularly like the part:

        “Or do we act like adults, come together as intelligent individuals, identify why the parties were so asinine stupid as to present the two worst candidates ever to the voters to choose for president, identify what the VOTERS want in candidates and parties and provide that as a choice next election?”

        Hear, hear. But better than what they want (which is often nonsense) I would substitute what they most fear and what they most care about and what would realistically work to address that.

        As far as the protests and the nasty comments on facebook, well, you are speaking from the perspective of being slightly removed from your youth, like I am, calmer, wiser, more informed, but the liberal kids protesting (this seems to me mostly university kids) are doing what is natural to them at their age given their politics. It is not going to influence much, those kids protesting, but they are reacting most of all the racism and sexism, which you see too as I knew you would, in their own way. The potential for a race war between the BLM people and the racists on the right terrifies me and, I think, them. So I am with them there. Of course, being products of the university left culture they will bring PC stuff like transgender bathrooms into it and lose the interest and the respect of the mass of mature voters. So, they are very often, in my opinion, more help to conservatives than threat.

        The two parties are both broken and it turns out that a bit surprisingly the dem party may be more broken, because to match the appeal of the trump populism they will be locked into silly answers like free college and an unpayable minimum wage. They may figure out some middle ground to appeal to voters but I don’t see where that middle ground is right now.

        Unfortunately, as I have said before, most people, even college graduates have very wrong ideas about economics and will be attracted to absurd pie in the sky ideas that won’t work much faster than they will be attracted to realistic analyses of the economic situation. And the parties have to promise them that stuff to excite them.

        I’m pretty damned gloomy about everything.

      • November 12, 2016 3:42 pm

        I agree with your recommended changes to what we do in the future to find better candidates.

        However, the internet crap that I am getting posted to my social media is coming from people much older than the kids in school. So there is two issues in play here.

        I got off on the student tangent based on a post somewhere along the line and then the social media comment came into play later. The kids are protesting and wanting safe spaces and for the most part, being immature, as so many kids are. The adults are just being asses and posting the hate I am getting. Most of it is just copies of post from websites that are trying to incite something.

        I can understand somewhat the kids as they are ignorant of the facts that really prevail and do not have the training on how to handle negative issues. That is the result of how they have been raised. The adults have the knowledge of what their hate is doing and that is why they are doing what they do.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 12, 2016 4:00 pm

        “The adults have the knowledge of what their hate is doing and that is why they are doing what they do.”

        Oh Jeez, is it from the left, the right, both?

      • November 12, 2016 8:51 pm

        Its both. Only in the middle where we live is it safe :)…

  66. November 11, 2016 10:09 pm

    hopefully I grabbed the link here:

  67. Pat Riot permalink
    November 11, 2016 10:18 pm

    Well I don’t agree with all of that, but that was a bit of fun.

  68. November 11, 2016 10:21 pm

    “ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken”

    And I’ve stopped listening to cable and tv new commentators… I’ve Head enough uniformed opinion to last me a decade.

  69. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 12, 2016 8:29 am

    To understand what is wrong here and still giving me nightmares just consider who Steve Bannon is and who he represents.

    Black churches have burned and will burn (and talk about the act of cowards), swastikas, harassment of totally innocent muslims, etc. the KKK will march and the source of that is inside the trump regime in the person of Bannon’s movement.

    I can imagine a KKK vs BLM confrontation that will draw in all of America surprisingly quickly.

    I see a plausible path to hell and breakdown. Laugh about safe spaces all you want, spoiled kids are not the worst problem we are facing, not by a long shot.

    Stop being blind.

  70. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 12, 2016 10:09 am

    Two people that I know, of which neither are from my circle of blogosphere friends, have said some post-election statements that sound so ignorant it hurts me. I know not to respond to such statements, but I suspect it is a taste of things to come, and I do not like the taste.

    I’m not going to say what actually was said, but just to make a comparison with a fake statement, imagine if a person you liked and admired said that Trump, within the past year, created the existence of the porn industry. Oh, the void of knowledge in such a statement, I said nothing, but I was inclined to try and out-dumb it with: “What is porn? I’ve never heard that term before,”

    Anyway, in a desperate attempt to find a silver lining to the mess we are in, while acknowledging we do need a government, I believe it is also healthy to have a certain fear of the expansion of government, this concern of government expansion may have been lost within many people. Perhaps a president as obnoxious as Trump, might at least temporarily, get people not to think of government as Santa Claus that we want to let into our homes.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 12, 2016 10:37 am

      I may be misreading your comment as a gentle lesson to me. In any case, don’t misunderstand me I don’t think that the Bannon alt right element of trump’s team invented church burning and swastakas, etc. But they do inspire such people.

      Imagine if the Rev. Jeremiah Wright had been Obama’s campaign manager and was being considered as his chief of stall. Hell would have broken loose. Bannon is the equivalent of Wright, a radical bomb thrower looking for a revolution. His participation in the trump team leads to a natural response, along with all the other inflammatory things trump has said and done. Protests, some of which will be peaceful, thoughtful and profound and some of which will be painfully stupid or worse are going to be a part of the trump years. Its guaranteed.

      We are so shocked by events that we are now numb and many will now accept almost anything as the new normal. Accepting Bannon’s ideas is unacceptable to me.

      Non violent protests are a healthy reaction to this. Anarchist types among other idiotic elements will hijack some of them though, bad.

      I see a downward cultural spiral that trump did not start but is hugely accelerating.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 12, 2016 10:58 am

        I appreciate your concern GW, but no, the comments were really made by people I know, one a very minor celebrity of sorts that I have personally met and had discussions with on other topics. The other one, completely unrelated to the first guy, who is more intimately involved with our family, much like a family physician. They were very different comments, but anyway. I’ve never found anything you said, GW, anywhere close to that disagreeable. In fact, in a hurried, non-reflective way, I believe I agree with the main points of your last comment, I just am off and running now and haven’t given it much thought, and I do like to think hard about the things said on this blog, most of them anyway.

      • November 12, 2016 11:53 am

        So paraphrase what they said, but keep the sources anonymous as you have.
        What could it have been to bother you so much?
        ( maybe I agree with them 😎)

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 12, 2016 12:09 pm

        “What could it have been to bother you so much?”

        Not meaning to butt in but, he made his choice for his own personal reasons and its his choice. Its not important to us what it was. Some post election shit.

      • November 12, 2016 12:29 pm

        Now my curiosity is really peaked 😇
        PERSONAL as in Trump had sex with a relative? 😈
        Mike, do you know the Donald?

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 12, 2016 12:32 pm

        Ugg. wow.

      • November 12, 2016 12:38 pm

        Where’s Jerry Springer when you need him? 🙈🙉🙊

  71. Anonymous permalink
    November 12, 2016 12:58 pm

    Jay, I get you (I think I do anyway). I will say I have invited friends to read this site although I do not have any evidence that any have as of yet. But the remark was related to Trump sexism as if he invented misogyny and men have never objectified women prior to him. Mike H here, obviously.

  72. Anonymous permalink
    November 12, 2016 1:05 pm

    The second from another person was essentially that wise people live in big cities and idiots live in rural areas. An easy enough thought to dismiss, but not when it comes from someone I care about and respect, well, it stings.

    • November 12, 2016 2:43 pm

      I grew up in New York City, but then lived in really rural upstate New York, north of Syracuse, and I can say with certainty I was just as idiotic in both places.

      But it may be true there are different home grown idiocies associated with big city life and rural life. I’ll hold off on those for now because my Border Terrier puppy is demanding to be let out

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 12, 2016 8:41 pm

      “Wise guys” live in the cities and are more prone to look for free stuff and an edge. The few “country people” I’ve met are generally nicer and more self-sufficient minded. It is no surprise that the city folks and the Dems usually gravitate towards each other and a few even look down on their country cousins, except the ones that are their summer home friends from the city. 🙂

  73. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 12, 2016 2:00 pm

    To further explain, perhaps more for the benefit of my own sorting out of my feelings, than for any need I feel to clarify, one about wise city folk was made online and was perhaps intentionally provocative from someone upset and spoiling for a verbal fight. The other, and what I would consider their profound misunderstanding of men in general, was told to me in person. Another reason I may not have confronted the person I was talking to was I may have ended up admitting, like Jimmy Carter in an interview with a certain magazine, that I too, have lusted after women.

  74. November 12, 2016 7:31 pm

    “I grew up in New York City, but then lived in really rural upstate New York, north of Syracuse, and I can say with certainty I was just as idiotic in both places.”

    hahaha. Sounds like a Sam Clemens/Mark Twain gem of wisdom. I nominate Jay for the FLOW award: “Fun Line of the Week”.

  75. November 12, 2016 9:31 pm

    Really? Prime time national coverage of spray-painted racist graffiti? Showing it over and over again. Graffiti? Ridiculous. How pathetic. What’s next, national coverage of two boys fighting in a school yard?

    Remember when the fire chief was caught setting fires so that he could put them out? Remember when the nature shows were busted for staging fights between wild animals and passing them off as if they had occurred naturally? How difficult is it for some clickbait artist to spray-paint something timely and provocative, take a cell phone pic of it, then write a half-ass article? Easy. They get paid per click.

  76. November 13, 2016 1:32 pm

    The office sometimes changes the man. I predict that this will happen to Trump, depending on how many highly credible folks he surrounds himself with. Then Reagan was elected, we heard the same in spades. A former actor, etc.

    • November 13, 2016 4:23 pm

      JB welcome back. Missed you.

    • November 13, 2016 5:29 pm

      Horrible false analogy.
      First what’s the statistical guide for ‘sometimes’ – one in a hundred?
      Second, Reagan served two terms as Governor of California. And he was an active party activist for many years, who worked with the Party leadership. Third, irrespective of his ideology, he was a reputable man, not prone to lie, cheat his fellow citizens, or cheat serially with other woman after he married Nancy. Fourth, he didn’t have business conflicts of interest when governing. His patriotism and religious beliefs were sincere

      I could go on, but why bother. None of it will register with those who already have rationalized voting or backing the Liar Elect.,

      • November 13, 2016 9:47 pm

        Jay, I agree that Reagan was far better prepared for the presidency, in many ways, than any 21st century president. Even his time as SAG president occurred during the blacklisting period, when the Communist Party was intent on infiltrating Hollywood, and freedom of speech was being threatened.

        I don’t think that JB was suggesting that Trump and Reagan were alike in that way. I think he was referring to the fact that Reagan was savaged by the press and by liberals in general, for being a dumb actor, a bigot and a homophobe (that term was not in use, but he was President during the height of the AIDS epidemic, and was bitterly criticized for his lack of response to it).

        During his life, Reagan was considered by many to be a scoundrel and an idiot, even though his legacy has been praised by some of the very same people who trashed his presidency.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 14, 2016 10:51 am

        Priscilla, you are in full rationalization mode. trump is a proud sexual predator and has more than just affairs to his name, he has by his own words done many things that would have put a non-rich person in prison. Hah, this is the revolution against the elite. Strong stuff the elite are terrified I am sure.

        I was against it when Bill Clinton from my side did it, and I rationalized nothing I was ripped and disgusted and remained disgusted. We are going to see a lot of this rationalizing based on party lines, norms are being shattered, we will never get our culture back. Before it was entertainers who were dragged our culture down with crude rap lyrics etc., now its the president. It matters a great deal that unlike Bill Clinton or Kennedy, trump is publicly proud of this.

        Angry woman PC on campus is going to go nowhere up and it will be the fault of trump and his followers, who will all be properly sarcastic about it.

        You are on the wrong side of this issue, there is nothing acceptable at all about trumps attitude towards women, the fact that he has some good behaviors in no way pardons his worst behaviors. The POTUS is a sexual predator pig who is proud of his rich alpha-male sexual aggression. That matters, entertainers are a tangent, (they disgust this liberal too), this is the POTUS.

        As a related tangent I accidently clicked the priscilla icon in getting ready to reply to you and I found myself in “rose colored thoughts, of which there was one “Obama does not believe that Putin is the enemy.” See the irony?

        You will twist yourself into a pretzel rationalizing things about trump that you know damn well are wrong and very bad for America. You will be far from alone.

        “Get a grip” hardly covers the irony.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 14, 2016 11:12 am

        Just my luck, my post responding to Priscilla saying Get a grip went to the wrong place. But you get the idea.

      • November 14, 2016 11:34 am

        GW, If the women who have accused Trump of sexual abuse are proven to be telling the truth ~ as of now, all we have are accusations and inferences based on his crude language~ I will certainly be less likely to view Trump sympathetically. As of now, we know for certain that he has said objectionable things about women, and that some women, decades after the fact, have claimed that these things are true. I once knew a woman, a child psychologist, who made her living by testifying in divorce courts that father’s had sexually abused their young children, based on her findings of “repressed memories” elicited through careful leading questions. The vast majority of these father’s were innocent, but their soon-to-be ex-wives used this testimony to win custody and/or money.

        My point is, without proof, one can say anything, and it was clear that the Clinton campaign had elicited these claims ~which MAY have been true, but were never made before, although decades had passed ~ for the purpose of destroying Trump’s candidacy.

        Sometimes I need to get a grip. Other times I am seeing clearly and others are blinded by fear and rage.

      • November 14, 2016 12:26 pm

        But Trumo admitted those behaviors on the audio tape.
        Included was his admittance of trying to seduce a married woman, at the time he himself was newly married. The ‘Nancy’ he mentioned was Nancy O’Dell, and Trump hasn’t denied it. Why is that part of his Locker Room banter true but the groping and kissing not true?

        It’s mind boggling that you continue to rationalize those groping accusations as unproven.
        None of the Cosby accusations have been proven yet- you giving him the benefit of doubt too?

      • November 14, 2016 1:49 pm

        Well here it goes. I’m on a rant and this is one that will divide the divided.

        So to the liberals in this country today, it it totally unacceptable to say and do the things that Trump is accused of or admitted doing, but it is totally acceptable to end the life of the baby at the hands of its mother and doctor?

        Sorry Jay, but I will forgive the sins of Trump before I will forgive the sins of abortion. Neither one is morally acceptable, but Hillary supports one and Trump the other and what Trump is accused of is not 1/2 as bad as what Hillary supports in my view.

      • November 14, 2016 3:34 pm

        This is one of the dumbest things I have heard you say.

        Does the term two wrongs don’t make a right ring a bell?

        Many Americans believe the death penalty is immoral. Conservatives are likely to favor it. Should Democrats state they will forgive the sins or crimes of Democrats because Republicans are in favor of execution?

        Are you seriously stating aborting a first trimester fetus ( 90% of all abortions) or even a second trimester 9.9% is morally unacceptable? Or that it’s morally unacceptable to abort ANY term fetus to protect the mother’s life? Your anti abortion views seem morally repugnant to me.

        And what’s this ‘sin’ nonsense about? Who gets to determine sin – God-believers? If the all powerful in charge of everything Christian God didn’t believe in abortion, why has he taken the lives of so many stillborn babes in the womb?

        Trump stated on 60 Minutes he’s going appoint anti abortion SCOTUS judges. I guess that means he won’t be nominating his Federal Judge sister for consideration – she’s pro abortion. Maybe that’s why she never publically supported him, or congratulated his win – at least one member of the family has good sense

      • November 14, 2016 5:55 pm

        Jay read my post in response to GW.

        “This is one of the dumbest things I have heard you say.”

        As our left wing resident who is doing everything to make Hillary look good and making Trump look bad, you most likely will hear many more statements from me that might be even dumber from your standpoint than this one.

        I have heard a bunch of dumb statements since the election from many left wing liberals, so depending on ones perspective, there is a lot of dumb statements going around.

      • November 14, 2016 7:16 pm

        I’m Center-Wing, Ron.
        But relativistically speaking, Trump has shoved the meaning of Moderate off the center line.
        Now those who believed a man as hideously unsuited morally, temprementally, righteously, is not fit to be President of this country are defined as off center Left.

        This land may be your land,
        But it isn’t my land
        Only on the Westward U.S. coastline
        And the Eastcoast Islands
        Is this land still free.. of idiocy.

        Too bad Woody’s not alive to put this tragic event in perspective. His music killed fascists

      • November 14, 2016 11:35 am

        Not sure why I used the possessive “father”s” rather than the plural “fathers”. Only one cup of coffee this morning……

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 14, 2016 11:51 am

        Priscilla, trump by his own words walked in on nude contestants in the dressing room of his beauty pageants. That would be a crime if I did it. Ah, but he is a rich guy, he “owned” those women. So he can brag about it free of worry. Nothing has been proven about Bill Clinton either, but I believe that he is a criminal sexual predator all the same, as I believe about Cosby as well, jail or no.

        One can defend any of these creeps in legal terms, since criminal acts have not yet been proven in court and never will, because these are rich powerful men. But you cannot dispute that the effect on our culture is terrible and that the angry feminist PC movement now has a perfect cause.

        I’m no prude, after the army I was totally converted to strip clubs (90 days spent surrounded by male knuckleheads with one interlude in the NCO club with the first strippers I had ever met sold me on the pleasures of nekkid women in strip clubs but those women chose to do that). Boys will be boys but there is a line between normal libido and being a predator and trump, Bill Clinton and Cosby crossed it free of charges because they are rich powerful people. trump bragging about that and being elected nonetheless is a cultural disaster. I cannot believe that the same conservative people who saw that harm when it was Bill Clinton have found a way to rationalize it in trump. He is an unacceptable POTUS for that reason alone, as was Bill Clinton.

      • November 14, 2016 12:11 pm

        Agree 100%

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 14, 2016 2:55 pm

        Ron, I am just surprised because its almost the opposite of what I thought your opinion on the politics of abortion is. My idea from previous posts is that you personally are not for it but as a libertarian are not going to tell someone else what to do about it and I think you have written a number of posts about how foolish you thought it is for social religious conservatives to try to overturn roe vs. wade. Perhaps I just always completely misunderstood you but I really thought I had your abortion politics opinion understood.

        This bad thing makes that bad thing OK by comparison is not a great argument. Liberals and many others are going to be appalled by trump’s attitude and actions towards women and abortion has nothing to do with that.

      • November 14, 2016 5:43 pm

        GW, my position has not changed. I do not support abortion, but I also do not believe that government is the way to eliminate it. I still find it morally wrong. Now if you look way back in the millions of comments made in the past, JB and I got into this discussion and we agreed to disagree since his position was more to government being involved, where mine was to allow it until a certain gestation since I know anything illegal will be handled in an illegal manner for anyone choosing a product or service regardless of its legality.

        But I also find it unacceptable from the moral standpoint at any time and do not see a conflicting issue with this compared to what Trump did. If Trump walks up to a woman and gropes her, she has four options. 1. Do nothing (which should not happen), 2. slap the shit out of him, 3. file a complaint with law enforcement or 4, slap the shit out of him, then file a complaint with law enforcement. I recommend #4.

        These are choices she has. The baby does not have a choice.

        I still believe those supporting Trump can not be chastised by those that find killing a baby acceptable. Both are morally unacceptable. I would say anyone who opposes Trump AND opposes abortion then has more rights to chastise him because they are putting his actions in the same light as those who support the actions taken to terminate a pregnancy.

        Its basically a moral vs legal position on both and how they are viewed.

        Does this clear up my thinking for you? Not sure if I did, but I hope so. I rewrote this a few times to try to keep it shorter and still get my point across.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 14, 2016 5:57 pm

        Ron, I appreciate the effort to explain your position. The thing is that about 80% of the population that believe that abortion should be legal under at least some circumstances with roughly 50% believing it shoud be legal in all circumstances (I believe that the gallup question wording is faulty because I doubt that “all circumstances” really means literally all circumstance to the people answering the question. I believe they take it to mean mean all circumstances in the first 2 trimesters. Which is certainly not what I personally believe.) So, that is 80% of the country whose morality is so compromised that they cannot make a moral point on any other issue?

        The trump sexual predator issue has just no connection with abortion. This is the rare example of you making an argument that I just cannot find any way to understand your logic. Its not that you did not explain well, you did. I just cannot see the connection. trump, our new POTUS, is a (proud!) sexual predator; that issue stands on its own. It will rightfully hang over his head along with the separate issue of his alt right white nationalist connection through Steve Bannon. Both issue are never going to go away.

        http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

      • November 14, 2016 6:19 pm

        OK. Again I did not vote for Trump nor did I vote for Hillary. I found both to be totally unacceptable, both morally and politically. I did not find Trumps actions acceptable just like I find Hillary’s liberal positions acceptable. Again I voted for Johnson even if he did not know what Aleppo was. And if the vote was held today, I would do the same thing over again.

        So as Obama said after the election and again today, Donald Trump is our 45th president. Elections have consequences. We need to move forward.

        So do we move forward like the Republicans did with Obama opposing everything he wanted, even if they were good for the country, or do we move forward by doing what is right for the country, with both parties working on their own issues privately to come up with better candidates in the future?

        Right now I see the left setting up for opposition to everything he sets out to do regardless of its outcome for the country. I see people demonstrating, walking out of school and in some places, rioting in places like Portland Oregon with more than 1 million dollars in damage. What is this going to accomplish. What is acting like the GOP has acted for the past 8 years going to accomplish. Just more of the same old crap that does no good for the country.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 14, 2016 6:50 pm

        Oregon for some reason is the home base of the anarchists in the US. Liberals are not anarchists.

        Liberal college students are not going to change much of anything. All the political people from Obama to Romney to the Bushes to Lindsey Graham to Bill Clinton have said the right words of respect for a power transfer. As they should have.

        College kids and perhaps some older lefty college profs and other assorted professional protesters are going to do what they love to do. They have changed the outcome of just about nothing since their heyday in the 60s. They did not even change the outcome of the 68 election.

        I will hope that somehow trump does some good things, what choice do I have? but at the same time I will say that his Bannon alt right white nationalist connection bodes very poorly and will not be accepted by a very large number of people.

        I am just one powerless guy. I am not going to protest, I am not even going to get a bumper sticker. I am just going to try to avoid looking too much as the situation is likely to play out according to the basic indicators over time. I will be delighted if my darkest fears turn out to be wrong. I’ve got maybe 20 good years left, I hope and my kids have much more. Like any sane person I hope that all works out.

        All the same Bannon’s alt-right white nationalist movement is a cancerous seed trumps character is what it is and my hopes and fears have nothing to do with that.

      • November 14, 2016 8:34 pm

        Something odd is happening; not odd as in strange, but as unexpected.

        All these anti Trump protests that have spontaneously erupted in many places, unorganized sudden gestures of solidarity after a lost election, I don’t remember seeing that after Obama was elected the first time, I don’t recall this many public protests against him, do you? Yes a lot of Internet and right wing talk radio screeching, but not like these Anti Trump marches and gatherings in number and frequency.

        Here in LA a really big Downtown protest march Sunday drew 8,000. No arrests, no reports of vandalism. A short time ago a neighbor reported about a protest she organized yesterday at a nearby park, for ‘commiseration.’ She said she advertised it on her Facebook page as a peaceful picnic-like gathering – those attending should bring blankets and refreshments. She said she expected half a dozen to attend; 50 or 60 showed up, mostly women, but across ethnic and age lines. She of course didn’t have a permit for a loadspeaker – no speeches or group sing – so they gathered in groups to talk and commiserate – and plan.

        I think there’s going to be a large permanent contingency of anti-Trump activists out there, as active and committed to the left as the Religious Right voting block the Republicans have relied on for decades. Unless Trump does something HUUUGELY popular and good for the nation (what’s the Vegas line on that?) the Anti Trump Harpies will hound him daily. A Greek Chorous of Accusation.

        Aren’t you beginning to feel a little better?

      • November 14, 2016 9:43 pm

        If riots and “commiseration” picnics are the way the left is going to handle their opposition to the Trump presidency, I see a great future for the right.

  77. November 13, 2016 1:39 pm

    Anyone know if Jay has regained his composure?

    • November 13, 2016 5:57 pm

      🤒 Nope, my temperature’s still rising..

  78. November 13, 2016 7:09 pm

    As the current sole representative of the female gender here, I have to weigh in a bit on the “Trump is a misogynist” thing.

    A few years back, I was having an online conversation with one of my sons, who happened to be in college at the time, and, in the course of that conversation, I said that I was not a feminist. My son expressed shock at that statement, explaining that I had always struck him as a strong woman who would never take a back seat to any man……and that I wasn’t such a great cook, lol. So, I explained that, while I was, in fact, a “women’s libber” in college, I had come to view modern feminism in many respects as a corrupt, hypocritical movement, unmoored from its beginnings. For those of you who remember The Little Rascals, I would describe it as The He-Woman’s Man Hating Club.

    So, while Donald Trump’s crass remarks and attitudes toward women are extremely distasteful to me, I also see that he has employed many women in very high positions of authority and has paid them extremely well. Kellyanne Conway is credited, in large part, with winning this election for him, and, last I checked, she is a woman of accomplishment, who has announced that she will be accepting a position in the Trump Administration. His marital infidelities are none of my concern, and less objectionable to me than Bill Clinton’s sexual abuse of a young intern or Hillary’s smearing of women who accused her husband.

    Jay-Z says worse things about women in every performance, yet, somehow, it doesn’t bother
    most liberals in the slightest. Let’s get a grip here.

  79. November 13, 2016 8:12 pm

    I 2nd the motion for getting a grip.

  80. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 13, 2016 11:39 pm

    JB- the difference between what is said about someone, and what someone is, IMO is worth examining. Pat posted a link recently that, while it was full of F-bombs, seemed to express an excellent point of how the left/Democrats have attempted to demonize everyone with a different idea as racist xenophobes. Not only does this create a “Cry Wolf” syndrome, ie when a REAL xenophobe shows up, the accusations are just dismissed from over use. Additionally, the fierce, venomous accusations stifle discussion. Rather than having a discussion that might possibly improve the understanding of their position, they chase people off, and into the privacy of the voting booth where their opinion can be spoken.

    Anyway, I would agree with Jay, albeit more mildly, that it is at a minimum, too early to make comparisons of Trump to Reagan or any other president.* However, to compare how people are reacting, we can compare that. I was in the 8th grade when Reagan was elected and I wasn’t following what the opposition was saying at that time so I wouldn’t know.

    I do remember one cartoon though, which I thought was hilarious. It showed Reagan as a captain of a ship labeled “the economy” and he was saying: “Stay the course!” despite the ship heading over a waterfall. As the ship crash landed, Reagan says: “Damn Democrats.”

    *It is a bit unfair to attribute negative characteristics to long dead presidents, but that being said, I highly suspect some of our past presidents were racist, sexist, homophobes, but still did an alright job as president. I do not assume Trump will do alright, I think he has earned the title of being an obnoxious, chauvinist liar, but despite some of his stated extreme positions, and history, I don’t think he has earned many other negative titles yet. We shall see.

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 14, 2016 11:07 am

      I am a liberal (sort of I just voted for a GOP governor and was surprised and delighted to get him) and you are, if I have your words correct, a recovering republican (or was it conservative?) turned libertarian. Yet, we have the same opinion of trump, while you express it more calmly.

      The problem is Mike that there is no politician or party that offers any light to me and likely to you too. I have no political heros now, I am hopeful about none of our institutions from congress to the press to the FBI. THere is no one for me to turn to. The democrats are stuck on transgender bathrooms, can’t criticize BLM associated violence, and got a platform full of unicorn farts like free college. The GOP is turning authoritarian, which they will deny but the next POTUS was full of both admiration for the methods of leaders like Putin the Kim Jong un and explicitly threatened those who oppose him with retribution, which according to his past record is no empty threat, he is vindictive to the core and is now the most powerful man in the world.

      Who will represent the wishes of people like me for something between the Liberal dem silly world and the GOP nightmare? No one.

      If I continue to follow the news and political commentary, even blogs like TNM I will only see bad things happen and watch people support ideas that are either silly or actively evil.

      Time to retreat into my own musical world and family and hope that I am being too harsh on our future prospects.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 15, 2016 1:03 am

        Ok GW: per your comment at 11:07 am (Nov 14). I’m going to get real personal. My best guess of the future is gloom and doom, but despite that, believe it or not, I’m not afraid of all that gloom and doom, even if and when it happens. Because, as the current POTUS put it, I bitterly cling to my guns and my religion. (Which I tried to illustrate by holding my 40 cal. glock and Bible.) As one lyrics of a song I sang as a child in Vacation Bible School put it: “I have a peace that passes understanding, down in my heart.”

        Being at peace doesn’t mean I can sit by and let the world and my country fall to pieces. I feel compelled to do what I can to fight for peace, love, and understanding. However, if it all came crashing down, and my world collapsed tomorrow, emotionally I might feel horrible, I might sink into a deep depression, but deeper than that depression, would be an inner peace that I have that just defies explanation.

        Thanks to the 2nd amendment, there is a better chance that I can go down opposing tyranny in a hail of bullets rather than meekly to a Gulag, but one never knows, they might catch me napping or stuffing myself at a CiCi’s pizza buffet. Anyway, there is enough trouble today to waste any worrying about tomorrow, bills to pay, relatives to wish well, kids to educate, ect. Go ahead and try to guess the future, plan for the future, work for the future, but don’t WORRY about the future. Well, I don’t like using the imperative that much, but in other words, I hope you can find an inner peace to get you through anything that life throws at you.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 15, 2016 9:27 am

        Well, I’ll admit that believing that the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is a real place would change one’s perspective on life’s events and make the tragedies of life easier to face. For better or for worse, I don’t believe that its a real place, this is my one and only life and this is our one and only planet.

        I would tend to believe that your glock is an indication that you DO worry.

        But, I thank you for your kind intentions and note that we are a funny pair of internet friends to be sharing roughly the same opinion of events!

  81. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 14, 2016 7:24 am

    My last post wasn’t the first time I felt my ideas were to scattered. To try to tighten to a few points:

    That which I consider both significant and known about Trump as president,
    1. He has no public office record to assess.
    2. His positions on many issues are vague and inconsistent, indicating dishonesty or lack of knowledge or both.

    Regarding the voting public,
    1.Although the absolute final count is not tallied, it appears Trump got fewer votes than what Romney got in 2012.
    2.Hillary got millions upon millions of fewer votes than Obama. This seems to be more of an anti-establishment, anti-cronyism statement from the voters than anything else.

    • November 14, 2016 10:49 am

      Mike, I agree, at least in principle, with much of what you’ve said. I do have one significant disagreement:

      “His positions on many issues are vague and inconsistent, indicating dishonesty or lack of knowledge or both.”

      You can call it dishonesty or you can call it politics (but, I repeat myself), yet you would be hard-pressed to name a president who has not had to compromise on key elements of his agenda, in order to get other, higher priority – or simply more publicly palatable – elements through the Congress.

      Obama was perhaps the only modern, non- wartime president who chose not to compromise but to ram his agenda through a Democrat majority Congress, and, after losing that majority, to govern by executive fiat. Some of us here, Ron most consistently, warned that this executive power grab would come back to haunt those who cheered Obama for legislating through executive order.

      That warning has now come to pass. If Trump restrains his more authoritarian impulses, and bargains with the Congress in order to pass most of the GOP agenda, I will consider him less a liar and more a very good president. It remains to be seen.

    • November 14, 2016 2:01 pm

      Mike, I am not a political expert, but I offer the reason for fewer votes for both parties was Obama not being on the ballot.
      1. Republicans did not turn out as strongly as last time since there was not the anti-Obama thing going on.

      2. The blacks did not turn out in force like they did last time since Obama was not on the ballot and they did not relate to Clinton as they would another progressive Democrat. They saw her as the clown for continued influence of big business and the ruling elite that does not understand their problems. Her words were just words and they did not beleive they woudl turn into action.

      • November 14, 2016 3:57 pm

        Hillary received the traditional number of black votes for a Democrat running for prez.
        She pulled 88% of the Black vote.
        That’s pretty much as been the typical percent of the black vote going to white Democrats the last dozen elections..
        Obama pulled 95% his first election, and 92% the second. Blacks voting racial pride were the difference. The only Democrat who would do as well, or better, with the Black vote is Michelle Obama – I’m betting you’re going to see a lot if her at Democratic and Black functions going forward

      • November 14, 2016 9:21 pm

        Jay, Hillary also won the 18-25 vote by a lot. But not nearly as many of them came out. For Michelle they would come out in droves.

        I think that, as Hillary said, James Comey lost the election for the Democrats….but not exactly in the way she meant. Sure, the last minute re-opening of her email investigation was a bombshell, and hurt her.

        But, if Comey had done his job and recommended the impaneling of a grand jury, which then would have indicted her, she would have been forced to withdraw, allowing Biden to enter the race, and Biden would have won easily.

      • November 14, 2016 9:24 pm

        *Done his job back in the summer, I meant.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 15, 2016 12:06 am

        How many here read about David Chappelle’s defense of the infamous Donald Trump tapes. Chappelle admits he voted for Hillary and has strongly denounced Trump, but still finds the way things were “twisted” in his opinion on the reporting of that particular story. I think he makes a good point. Here is the link:

        http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/7565711/dave-chappelle-says-the-media-twisted-donald-trump-words-in-the-access-hollywood

      • November 15, 2016 12:29 pm

        Mike, I did see that. And, I tried to say something similar here, only to be cruelly attacked as a blind Trumpist by Jay and GW (joking, joking!)

        I remember one of the shibboleths of my youth was “Actions speak louder than words.” I think that applies doubly to politicians, yet what has happened over the last decade or so, is this idea that we all need to conform to a certain standard of attitudes and beliefs, regardless of how those attitudes and beliefs play out in actual behavior.

        I give Chappelle a lot of credit for overcoming that kind of groupthink. And speaking of Chappelle, did everyone see this sketch on SNL?

  82. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 14, 2016 8:14 pm

    Comments are quite alive today. So many issues, and people sharing plenty of perspectives. It is hard for me to keep them all straight, let’s see, GW said he became a fan of strip clubs while being surrounded by male knucklehead dancers. Did I get that right? Hey, I say live and let live.

    Rose: I’m not taking a position that the president-elect is a bigger or smaller liar than any other politician. I am emphasizing the lack of understanding many of us have of which direction Trump is heading. While Obama was ramming through health care, he lied about “like your plan, keep your plan” ect, but as despicable as that was, we knew what he wanted, we knew what his objective was, good or bad, we knew what he wanted to do. In contrast, if military generals advise Trump that the only way to ensure quick and decisive elimination of ISIS would be with U.S. ground troops, Trump would….1) Send in ground troops , 2) Accept that we will have to take a longer time to eliminate them, 3) Declare he knows better than the generals and commence a secret plan to quickly eliminate then that precludes ground troops. 4) Something else. ELEPHINO! Too many conflicting statements. Compromise? Compromise from what?

    Jay: Thanks for your info and perspective on the Black vote.

    I’m craving to write more, but alas, other tasks…everything in moderation!

    • November 14, 2016 9:13 pm

      Mike, I think that, in his signature simplistic way, Trump made his basic agenda pretty clear: 1)Border security and end of sanctuary cities (the deportation thing was never gonna happen, at least not for the vast majority of illegals. 2) Repeal and replace Obamacare, which he is already starting to soften a bit…it’s now “repeal and/or amend” Obamacare. 3. Negotiate better trade deals ~ TPP is effectively dead in the water. 4) “Rip up” the Iran nuclear deal and 5) Rebeuild the military and destroy ISIS. 6)Lower taxes on everything and everyone except the hedge fund guys

      He recently added this $1 trillion ” infrastructure” program which, if it’s REALLY an infrastructure program and not a slush fund for unions like the last one, is sorely needed, and will be unlikely to meet too much Dem resistance, which may be why he looks to be leading with it.

      I suppose my point, not well made, is that vagueness on details is a feature, not a bug of his agenda. Which is probably what you were saying.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 14, 2016 11:46 pm

        Priscilla, ok, I’ll go with “vague”, it sounds nicer than describing it other ways. Speaking of nice, what ever “tactic or strategy” is behind Obama’s charm offensive, I don’t know, but taking it at face value, I think the things Obama is saying about Trump right now are as nice and conciliatory as I can imagine Obama saying. I might be being tricked, but I am admiring the heck out of Obama for the moment in how Obama is acting. Like Forrest Gump said: “Conciliatory is as conciliatory does.”

  83. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 14, 2016 8:39 pm

    “GW said he became a fan of strip clubs while being surrounded by male knucklehead dancers. Did I get that right?”

    Good lord No! The male knuckleheads were troglodytes, that is, my fellow trainees and the drill sergeants. The dancers, thanks god, were energetic (and very flexible!), ladies. You were in the Army, you know the NCO clubs I am sure!

    • Mike Hatcher permalink
      November 14, 2016 9:24 pm

      Quickest way to for one to end the humor in a joke is to either explain or ask for clarification. But I’m going to anyway here, you do know that I deliberately distorted your words to try to be funny?

      During basic, of course, there was no going anywhere, immediately after basic training, I went to my wedding, it was a long bus ride from Ft. Leonard wood Mo. to Berrien Springs, Michigan. As far as going to clubs during my years in the Army after basic training, well, I ah…don’t recall,…ah…I think I might have suffered a concussion…ah.no comment.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 14, 2016 9:50 pm

        And you do realize that come right back at you with the troglodyte reference?

        You want humor, this is something my wife found in her facebook pasted by her boss ( a woman).

    • Mike Hatcher permalink
      November 14, 2016 11:28 pm

      I caught the reference to that early post where I self-identified as a caveman/troglodyte, but I guess putting two and two together was too much of a strain on my brain at that moment. Oh, well, no harm no foul. – FYI, all , feel at liberty to take a stab at jesting with me, I believe the odds of me taking offense to anything would be really low. Jay the other day was joking about my personal connection to Trump and referred to Jerry Springer- I was going to try to build off of that, perhaps say something like , yeah, my buddy D.T. we have a nickname, I call him “Little D,” It is an inside joke between he and I, I’m not permitted to tell people what it is.

      Anyway, I was too busy at the time, and if it isn’t quick and fresh, it isn’t likely to sound cute. But even if something falls flat, don’t fear me for giving it a try.

  84. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 15, 2016 9:57 am

    So, I hope (ha ha you heard this before) to let go of this world of news and blogging for a good bit and try to achieve my idea of 4 hours per day of classical guitar practice with the goal of excellent technique and the target of playing all the bach cello suites beautifully, and 4 hours per day violin practice with the goal of playing the Vivaldi four seasons concertos at a professional level.

    But before I go (ha ha, I hope) I have a few little parting shots.

    Infrastructure, 1 trillion dollars: yes, I am for it, I will even write to trump and suggest the CETA model of providing training to economically marginal people.

    Increased military spending, well, this a sad thing to have to want, but its the way to actually win with Putin. so, yes.

    Tax cuts: see the two above items, we appear to be talking massive deficits. Ron’s eyes are going to bug out when he sees the numbers like a character in who framed Roger Rabbit.

    Obamacare: I never liked it, it makes me pay a penalty and gives me nothing. But it did provided ten million or so uninsurable people with insurance. Taking it away is going to leave marks.

    Campus protests: they are going to continue. So what, they are hardly effective. Don’t confuse the anarchists who riot with liberals, one is anti government and the other wants big government. One has riots as its central method, the other has sit ins and consolation lunches.

    The parties: both broken, one silly the other flirting with the alt right, which in Europe they call the far right.

    Big balls: I saw a picture somewhere of a man sitting what appeared to be a giant tan exercise ball. But it wasn’t an exercise ball he had elephantitis of the apparatus. Get the point? Resolve is good, but a caricature of it is pathetic. General Micheal Flynn, John Bolton?!? The men with the balls to do things right or nut jobs?

    Bannon: The worst part of this election, he may or may not be an actual white supremacist, but the white supremacists believe he is. Ann Coulter speaks absolute white supremacist language and ideas without hiding anything and she has many admirers in the conservative world in spite or because of it. It is no stretch to say the there is a considerable white supremacist element in the far right and even the conservative base. Now its got a friend, or thinks it has, in the highest levels of the White House. The new normal that we should all learn to accept?

    I will be wildly happy if all turns out much better than my worst fears.

    Anyhow while all this is churning itself out here is my goal, its a piece I can already play I want to play it at this level:

    • Anonymous permalink
      November 15, 2016 10:32 am

      GW: You are right of course. I have not eliminated all fear and doubt in my life. I don’t know why David took up a sling and stone against Goliath yet Desmond Doss charged into battle without even a slingshot. If music is your medicine, then I hope you find the right dose. I would humbly suggest limiting your exposure to those who upset you. Even if they are correct, everything in moderation. Especially I would recommend you avoid reading comments from that nut job, Ian Robertson, boy is he ever bad news! I wish you well for however long that duration is. Mike H

      • November 15, 2016 12:12 pm

        I know that Ian Robertson guy. Doesn’t have a clue 😉

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 15, 2016 1:28 pm

        Hmm, my cover seems to be blown (is it somehow in wordpress?) if I am going to be famous can I please be slightly rich? Being fully rich sounds like a 24/7 pain in the rear, but I could handle being very slightly rich. I don’t want to sign autographs or be asked to participate in selfies with strangers.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 15, 2016 1:32 pm

        Well, carry on here Mike, in many ways you are being a nicer calmer version of me, so keep doing that.

      • November 15, 2016 2:06 pm

        You were Ian back in the day here on TNM, GW. That’s how I knew anyway. I’m really just Priscilla, and my last name can be gleaned from an obvious clue. So, we’re outed 😉 Have a good break, and come back. You’ve generally been a nice version of yourself.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 16, 2016 9:37 am

        Well, my tone here is judgemental, lecturing, disagreeing. Sometimes pompous. Occasionally screaming. I think it came about because as soon as I arrived here all those many years ago I got right into a huge argument that lasted years with Dave and that is his approach and I adopted it to battle him. Some of us here regularly lecture other posters on what the hell is wrong with them, e.g., Dave, me, Jay, Pat, JB. Others, such as yourself, DDuck, Mike, and Ron just have at politicians and ideas or political groups but not at posters, or very rarely. An irritable word from Ron is worth a thousand from me, it carries weight due to its extreme rarity.

        My un-nice qualities as a poster here are just something you got used to.

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 17, 2016 8:49 am

        Well, bad writing on my part, unintentional: correction, Dave does not scream, he calmly tells you how good everything is. The occasional screaming is me, not him. The other adjectives describe us both, I stand by them.

  85. November 15, 2016 2:13 pm

    Henry Oliner is a great moderate observer and writer, in the Rick Bayan mold. I think that his observations on how and why Trump won this election make a lot of sense. It’s a short read, but well worth your while (he did misspell ” Pyrrhic” but whatever ~ Rick would never do that):

    “When one is decried as racist, anti-science, anti-intellectual or any number of other libels whenever they question any liberal orthodoxy most will not engage further because once they are treated with contempt they just withdraw. The accuser may feel they won, but their victory is pyric because this contempt is not forgotten. It is remembered, it accumulates and it eventually reaches that Network ‘mad as hell’ moment. That moment was November 9”

    http://www.rebelyid.com/2016/11/the-party-that-cried-wolf/

    • November 17, 2016 1:08 pm

      “In the Rick Bayan mold” — ha, you just swelled my head a few cubic inches. (Thank you. And you’re right; I never would have misspelled “Pyrrhic — at least not as badly as Oliner did.) When I was active on Twitter about five years ago, RebelYid was one of my contacts.

      I’ll probably be addressing his theme in my upcoming column. It’ll be a tough one, straddling the line between razzing the liberals for their assumptions while knocking Trump Nation where deserved — and attempting to call for a more unified America. Whew, it’s not easy being a moderate!

      • November 17, 2016 2:04 pm

        Maybe looking at the reasons for the decline in popularity of the Democrats when it comes to the middle class America and the working class will be a good place to start. Its fine to support minority groups like LGBT, but when their rights begin to infringe on Straight’s rights then it becomes a divisive issue and the forgotten middle class America will vote for someone they believe will defend the rights they were provided in the constitution also.

        GOP has moved too far right in the last 8 years. The dems have moved too far left in the last 8 years. Middle class America finds the right more acceptable than the left right now, but that leaves the middle wide open, so where is the moderate party when you need it?

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 17, 2016 11:10 pm

        That’s odd, I just posted under “Racial Profiling” and the comment did post, however it did not post in the recent comments” list. I don’t get email updates so I rely on the “recent comments” list in keeping up with new comments.

  86. Anonymous permalink
    November 15, 2016 2:14 pm

    GW: We often do settle on the same conclusion although it takes some sorting out at times. If you did take a break for weeks at a time, you could pop in without reading the blog and just post the word “present” much like the former junior senator of Illinois did. The point to that is that in these days of instant messaging, if someone does not respond within about 2 minutes, I assume they are either dead or they hate me. But thanks to all here who are so considerate of other that they announce when they believe they will be away for awhile. 😃

    • Grand Wazzoo permalink
      November 16, 2016 9:27 am

      If I die, I’ll let you know. I don’t hate you, you are me in an alternate reality with a bible and glock. Insert smiley thingy here.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 17, 2016 12:03 am

        Yes GW, I sense this kind of Spock mind meld kind of thing where we don’t fully agree with each other, but we both kind of see things through the other person’s eyes. Let me test this out by writing the same thing just with two different styles…

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 17, 2016 12:31 am

        About Steve Bannon,

        Mike says: I don’t really know the guy at all, but I listen to 2nd amendment gun advocate Dana Loesh, who worked with Bannon at Brietbart, she says Bannon has turned what was once a legitimate alternative news source into a propaganda machine. She says Bannon has demonstrated he is all about self promotion and doubt he cares at all about what is good for the country. I would emphasize this comes from a talk show host that is solidly conservative, not fan of Trump but definitely saw Trump as better than Clinton on Ms. Loesh’s top passion of gun rights. She expressed her distain for Bannon both pre-election and post-election. I respect and trust Dana Loesh on her assessment of Mr. Bannon.

        Mike trying to write GW style: Steve Bannon is a sick twisted supremacist that fits Trump’s leaning towards overt, extreme racism. Bannon’s appointment is just another sign that my worst fears are coming true. It boggles my mind how people who are otherwise good and rational, simply let it slide that such a terrible person is going to be appointed to such a high office. And when you ask me when I say “terrible person” am I meaning Bannon or Trump, I’m meaning BOTH!

        How was that?

      • November 17, 2016 12:51 am

        “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”
        Charles Caleb Colton

      • Grand Wazzoo permalink
        November 17, 2016 9:08 am

        Mike you are Just not going to let me retire or retreat for a month! I like your idea f the two sides and I am heartened to hear a glock and bible libertarian describe Bannan the way the Mike persona did. Gives me a little hope after listening to Pat. I think you exaggerated the Ian personna, I’ve been much more nuanced. I don’t know if Bannon is a racist, but lots of white supremacist racists think he is their guy and he is doing nothing to disabuse them. It very fishy, smells bad, I thought we were past this stage.

        120,000 votes, or 1/1000 of the total votes of ~ 125,000,000 in 3 states, Penn, Illinois, and Wis., threw the Clinton popular vote victory of 1 to possibly nearly 2 million when all is counted to the other side in the electoral collage. Based on that very narrow electoral collage victory the trump GOP will turn everything upside down and let the far right have a big place in the new administration? Roe vs. Wade overturned, a trade war, a wall that the majority don’t want? Climate change denialists in total command of the environmental agencies? The GOP lost several senate seats as well, this a a mandate for such a revolution? This is a seriously wacked out situation. All observers said that there was going to be hell to pay no matter who won and that was correct. As I said at the top of one of these threads it is not the election that is the apocalypse, its that day after that the apocalypse starts, which is hopefully purple prose on my part. A bad election all around for America and I trace it back to 9/11. Nothing has gone right since that day.

        OK, Mike now have pity on me and let me take a one month retreat. Its a liberal thing, retreats, goes with the wine and cheese. Maybe I’ll buy a glock while I’m there and as Sarah Palin, our likely new secretary of the interior or some other agency would say, reload.

      • Anonymous permalink
        November 17, 2016 10:30 am

        GW: I might be addicted to posting at the moment, but what I can do, and think I will do, is start posting to other issues, staying away from politics. It seems that pretty much guarantees people won’t reply to them for six months or so, thus a form of “sabbatical” . Mike H. (Don’t forget to inform me if you become deceased in the interum).

      • November 18, 2016 10:34 am

        GW (if you’re still here, lurking to see how Mike impersonates you ~ personally I would give him ab A-/B+ points taken off for being a bit too restrained 😉 ) , Trump is not going to take the country to the far right….if Hillary had won, with a GOP Congress, we likely would have had continued legislative gridlock and rule by executive fiat and/or SCOTUS activism.

        Schumer has already said that there are elements of Trump’s agenda that the Democrats can get on board with. The aforementioned infrastructure bill, child tax credits, restructuring trade agreements, etc. These things, if Trump is willing to deal, could revive what is currently the moribund Democratic Party.

        Be of good faith, we’re not doomed…….yet.

  87. Anonymous permalink
    November 15, 2016 2:27 pm

    I really think it would be fun to have a “masquerade blog” – Rick posts an article that has been little discussed , perhaps like assisted suicide or something, Then all the regulars log in with different accounts and we have a certain amount of days to try to figure out who everybody is. My proposed “rules” would be that you answer honesty but people can’t ask you about other subjects. Everyone in the game would have to make a mini number of comments as well. I don’t actually think Rick would do it, but I think it would be hilarious if he did and not hard to figure out most of us.

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 15, 2016 9:47 pm

      Love it. I could do a liberal in my sleep.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 15, 2016 11:41 pm

        Hmm, I would have to find a sneaky way to pick at your “no green bananas” statement. Somehow I would have to ask you a question that would give away approximately how old you were, to “unmask” you. Say, do you remember when Truman held up that newspaper: “Dewey defeats Truman”. I don’t know, something like that. Thanks for the feedback,Dduck!

  88. Anonymous permalink
    November 15, 2016 2:36 pm

    Priscilla: You used the word Shibboleth earlier which I felt was so very fitting, as the origination was tied to an event where people were killed for sounding different. As you probably know, it was a little more involved than that, but quite relevant during a time of such intense “us/them” rhetoric. .. Posted by your “anonymous” friend that no one will be able to ascertain who it is. 😎

  89. Anonymous permalink
    November 16, 2016 12:40 am

    While taking a brief break from the news, I was reading an article about past presidents, mostly founding fathers and the Adam’s were part of it. I realized that even though they were related, the people had a break from them in the White House 1801-1824 and then both only spent 4 years in office for a total of 8 years.

    For close to 1/2 of my life starting in 1980, there has either been a Bush or Clinton in the White House or running for the position. Started with 41 as President and ended last Tuesday.

    Trump accomplished another impossible achievement this election. He dismantled the Bush/Clinton dynasty that has had overwhelming power in both parties for far too many years.

    • Mike Hatcher permalink
      November 16, 2016 9:24 am

      I’m pretty good with math. I guess that puts you over the 72 years old mark?

      • November 16, 2016 2:23 pm

        70+..As I said “close to 1/2 my life”

  90. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 16, 2016 9:26 am

    Which Bush/Clinton ran in 2012? Was it Jeb?

    • November 16, 2016 2:26 pm

      The dem’s were making plans for Hillary candidacy. Did you hear anything about anyone else up until the time Bernie ran? And don’t forget all the info that has come out on the election about how the democrats leadership worked to get her nominated.

  91. Ken permalink
    November 16, 2016 1:48 pm

    I had a dream also, finding myself impaled upon the horns of a dilemma, so I wrote in;
    President Scylla
    Vice President Charybdis

  92. dduck12 permalink
    November 16, 2016 4:33 pm

    @MH: Heard it on the radio: The shadow knows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlRpN8ANrU

  93. November 17, 2016 12:02 pm

    Best comment quote I saw today:

    “The two worst disaster dates in American History:
    9/11 when the Twin Towers came down.
    11/9 when Trump was declared president.”

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 17, 2016 12:38 pm

      I hope they meant post 2000. 🙂

    • November 17, 2016 2:05 pm

      Yeah, I’m guessing that some folks in Sandy Hook, San Bernadino and Orlando might disagree with that second one…….

      • November 17, 2016 2:18 pm

        I guess we will have another 4 years like the past 8. The right went bonkers when Obama was elected and continued their anal hemorrhage for another 8 years. Now the gods have been just and have provided the left with the same benefits so they can have the same anal hemorrhage for the next 4 years. The right took off on Reverend Wright from the beginning based on his radical beliefs and his “God Damn America” and now the left can take off on Bannon, even though the anti-defamation league has admitted some of the things being said about him are untrue.

        What a great four years we have to look forward to, much the same as the last 8.

      • November 17, 2016 3:01 pm

        Well. Ron, I’m hoping you’re wrong, but I’m afraid you’re probably right.

        My hope is based on the fact that, right now, the whining crybabies of the left are being pretty mercilessly mocked by everyone else, even many liberals, who may feel pretty crappy about losing to Trump, but who are ready to get on with their lives. The majority of liberals do not believe that we just turned into Nazi Germany, and are put off by the drama queenery of that line of thinking. I think that the relative grace and dignity with which Obama and Hillary handled the loss has helped, too.

        My fear is based on the hysterical nature of the reaction, even by some of those who should know better, and the apparent ignorance of basic American history and electoral politics, on the part of actual American citizens of voting age. I happened to be at Rutgers yesterday, during the student tantrum -I mean, protest – over the Trump victory. “Stop The Deportations!” was one banner. Ummm, do they know that Obama is still the President until January 20, 2017? “We reject Trump!” was another. (They rejected W. Bush too, fat lot of good it did them). Do these kids have any clue how pathetic they appear to, say, coal miners who were assured by Hillary that they would be put out of work?

        I just hope that, in the next couple of months, the long freakout subsides, and Americans grow up.

  94. Anonymous permalink
    November 17, 2016 3:12 pm

    Priscilla, we have to be fair. If Obama can get awarded a Peace Prize because people thought he might bring peace, by the same token, Trump should get all the blame for disasters people think he might cause. Mike H

  95. dduck12 permalink
    November 17, 2016 6:32 pm

    Ahem, WILL cause.
    Obama and Trump: Both represented hope and change to half the country. (Watch out for unicorns chasing your rear.)

  96. Mike Hatcher permalink
    November 17, 2016 10:49 pm

    I’ve written comments on political blogs for perhaps about 8 years now. I’ve never had so many “game ideas” like “masquerade blog” and prediction contests pop into my head before. While contemplating what has changed in me, I have concluded this is the first time I feel like I connected to a community. A community where even people arguing seem like friends. Anyway, my craziest I idea yet, and I absolutely do not plan to actually build such a game, but I imagined mimicking fantasy sports with the economy. To be clear I do no like fantasy sports at all, but one aspect is that you can’t just pick a winning team or a losing team , you have to try and guess the exact player that will score the most points. So for fantasy economy, you can’t just say it is going to tank, but you have to pick a “team” of which stats will go down the most. For example one person’s team could be 1.Unemployment, 2.Consumer price index 3.Crime rate. Another person could pick 1.Stock Market, 2. National Debt 3. Housing foreclosure rate. There would be almost no limit to the statistics, one would just have to standardize the units somehow. One could even use “exotic measurements” such as The Baltic Dry Index. Then one picks which direction it will go, up or down from say Inauguration day to one year later, and you get points for each tenth of a percent It moves. You could pick unemployment to be worst and the stock market to be better, go either way on any stat. Anyway, I know I wouldn’t make money the way company like Draft Kings makes money, but if I was the house and took a percentage of people playing for prizes, I bet I could make a few bucks. Anyway, enough crazy talk. I’m moving on to other issues on this site. 🙂

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 18, 2016 10:16 am

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfsTk5i7mPw But imaginative. 🙂

    • November 18, 2016 10:18 am

      Well, Mike, that might be fun. We’d have to agree on the source of statistics and what constitutes a real change in any direction. Game on, if you’re ready to set the rules/

      And, jeez, I haven’t heard of the BADI since an ill-fated econ class I took a while back. A very while back…..

      • Anonymous permalink
        November 18, 2016 2:04 pm

        Pricilla, with your encouragement , I’m going to do it. I don’t have time to start this moment, but I’ll do it on the wild card string so I don’t clutter the conversation under this article. Mike H

  97. Grand Wazzoo permalink
    November 18, 2016 11:30 am

    Present.

    A joke

    An airplane was about to crash. There were 4 passengers on board but only 3 parachutes.The 1st passenger said, ” I am Steph Curry , the best NBA basketball player. The warriors and my millions of fans need me , and i can’t afford to die” So he took the 1st pack and left the plane
    The 2nd passenger , Donald Trump , said , ” I am the newly elected US President , and I am the smartest President in American history , so my people don’t want me to die.” He took the 2nd pack and jumped out of the plane.
    The 3rd passenger , the Pope , said to the 4th passenger , a 10 year old schoolboy , ” My son , I am old and don’t have many years left , you have more years ahead so I will sacrifice my life and let you have the last parachute.” The little boy said , ” That’s okay , Your Holiness, there’s a parachute left for you. America’s smartest President took my schoolbag.”

    • November 18, 2016 11:41 am

      Finally, something to smile about 😎‼️

    • Anonymous permalink
      November 18, 2016 1:59 pm

      That’s how to do it! Good job. Quick joke and out. Now that I think about it, that is a often how Jay does it too. Witty or cute then gone for awhile. Mike H

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 18, 2016 3:36 pm

      ++ 🙂

  98. November 18, 2016 7:33 pm

    Conman Swindler President Elect Trump agrees to settle Trump U lawsuit for $25 Million.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/18/donald-never-settle-trump-to-settle-trump-university-fraud-lawsuit-for-20-million.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

    The Lie In Your Face soon to be President has continued to tell us in dozens of interviews, stump speeches, and tweets that he would never settle the suit because the charges were baseless.

    Is this what we have to look forward to: a Liar-In-Chief Tweeting us daily doses of misinformation; or will the accumulated glory of the White House, of the prestigious past history of many who occupied it, transform Mr. Trump from his lifelong inclinations to bend the truth to shape his narrative, into a man of honor, truthfulness, Transparency? Like a magic crown placed on the head, will the crown of office imbue him with holy rectitude and make him – gasp: Trustworthy?!?

    For those of you who say yes, that likely could happen, I refer you to that sage of human gullibility, P.T. Barnum and his well known adage: “Theres a sucker born every minute.”

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 18, 2016 8:07 pm

      It’s called being, er, pragmatic. Don’t we all hope that he will be so for the next four years?

    • November 19, 2016 12:45 am

      So the GOP party, the lawyers, his advisors and more probable his kids and their family advised him to settle and get this behind him so he goes into office without this issue hanging over his head. And most important, if I heard the reports correctly, this was a settlement like so many that corporations agree to where they do not confess any wrongdoing, but it is for the best for everyone to get it over with.

      You also ask “or will the accumulated glory of the White House, of the prestigious past history of many who occupied it, transform Mr. Trump from his lifelong inclinations to bend the truth to shape his narrative, into a man of honor, truthfulness, Transparency”

      Jay I suspect based on the way you phrased the question that you have lived though a number of presidents and you most likely have your opinion, such as Bill Clinton never lied nor did Obama. (“I never had sex with that woman, Lowinski” …”You can keep your health care, you can keep your doctor”) .So with that, I will answer from my perspective. I think Trump will lie to the American people just like all the others that preceded him into that office when it is of benefit to him and the party (the nation is secondary in any decisions). Just like Hillary would have entered the White House with the Benghazi story about it being in response to an anti-islamic video. They all have lied, they are still able to lie and they will continue to lie even after they leave office.

      To be in politics you have to be able to lie or you will never get the votes needed to take office. Even the dog catchers will lie and say they will end euthanasia, but when they get into office they will continue the policy and tell everyone that fewer animals are being killed, when in fact more die during their term in office.

      • November 19, 2016 12:45 pm

        It’s not that he settled – its that he KNOWINGLY set up a con-job money making school in the first place, and continued to lie about it to ME! If YOU want to rationalize that dishonest behavior ‘as getting it behind him’ you’ve entered the Twilight Zone of Blind Excuse.

        His entire business career shows an indelible pattern of unscrupulous, unprincipled, UNTRUSTWORTHY behavior. He has a long history of shady business ethics that forced him to settle DOZENS of suits for improper business activities. His default stance isn’t to do what’s right, but to see what he can get away with. It may be OK to be a Shylock with a combover in the casino business, but not as President. And the simpleminded calls to give him the benefit of the doubt, that misanthropic Ebenezer Trump will be redeemed by the Ghosts of Presidents Past, is a false-hope pipe-dream wrapped in a naive illusion. And I have no ‘doubt’ about that.

        As Americans we need the benefit of skepticism now, as this lying narcissist takes POWER over our lives. As supposed ‘moderates’ the commenters here should scrutinizing Trump daily like a convict on parole; you should be ankle-bracelets sounding alarms at each misstep of unpresidential behavior, and not overindulgent parents enabling the behavior of a compulsive liar with wishful thinking.

      • November 19, 2016 1:20 pm

        Jay, again I am just going to have to say you and I will just have to agree to disagree on the issue of some politicians lying and others that do not.

        Now if you re-read my last paragraph of my comment (I will copy here so you do not miss it):

        “To be in politics you have to be able to lie or you will never get the votes needed to take office. Even the dog catchers will lie and say they will end euthanasia, but when they get into office they will continue the policy and tell everyone that fewer animals are being killed, when in fact more die during their term in office.”

        you will notice I am completely aware that he is a liar. And lairs are untrustworthy. Anyone that does not scrutinize any politician is either not interested in politics and how it impacts their life or they are naive concerning politics or politicians. I will also say that I believe that most all multi-millionaire businessmen and richer are liars or they would not have achieved the level they have achieved. You have to screw someone along the way or they will screw you.

        I think our differences is your belief that politicians are not lairs and now you are making a point to show that Trump is different from the rest, while I am saying he is just like all the rest and why is this an issue now?

        What we need to be focusing on is his tax and spend policy and his Russian outlook. How in the hell are we going to give 4 billion in tax cuts, spend a trillion on infrastructure, not increase the debt anymore than it is and stop Russian aggression in Ukraine and other former soviet countries?

      • November 19, 2016 4:59 pm

        I totally agree the politics life frequently. Clinton obviously lied about Monica. Hillary obviously lied about parts of the email erasures.

        But the frequency and nature of the lies from Trump surpass the political lies politicians have told us in the past. He’s an inveterate liar and schemer who operates in his own self interest, and the sad fact that he lied his way into office will not alter his nature.

        Add that to his horrible lack of self control, his classless broadcasted nastiness to public and private individuals, and we will be baring witness to the disfiguring erosion of respect for the office of president that has underlined our core patriotic values since July 1776 – he is who he is: a buffoon in a Briani suit and nothing will change that. Our flags should fly at half mast every day he remains in office.

    • November 19, 2016 9:21 am

      Jay, I’m sure that disappointed Democrats would love to see Donald Trump agree to testify in this lawsuit, so that they can begin the cry of “Impeach Him!” before he even takes the oath of office.

      Since he doesn’t seem willing to accommodate them, they’ll just have to go back to calling all of his cabinet appointees “Racist!”

      • November 19, 2016 1:20 pm

        I’m sure large numbers of Americans, Democrats, Independents, Reoublicans, would have liked to see him testify, to see if he testifies truthfully, or plays the deceptive sneak as he has done many times before under oath – as I’m sure you have read previous published testimony.

        Having been elected President, by a million vote minority, equating to less than 25% of Americans eligible to vote, doesn’t exempt him from being scrutinized for past behavior. And if he continues to be an asshole, as manifested in his latest Tweet to the cast Members of the Bway Show Hamilton, the robust opposition to him should continue to find ways to Impeach him ASAP.

        http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/19/us/mike-pence-hamilton.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

      • November 20, 2016 9:54 am

        You think Trump was being an asshole? Of course you do.

        The well-paid cast of a Broadway show, a show which makes reverse racism part of its appeal, sees fit to shower its personal hatred on a public servant who has come to see them act and sing and dance? I suppose that you would see that as a heroic act.

        Speaking truth to power, right? You lefties are a brave lot, yes you are……

      • November 20, 2016 1:37 pm

        Jay isn’t going to change. He hates Trump and NOTHING that will happen in the future will change that.

        Might as well argue with wall.

      • November 21, 2016 2:28 am

        You confuse hate with contempt.

        I don’t hate the orange haired tax-evading truth-distorting golf cheating serial philandering double talking goofball Elect – I have contempt for him as a pompous blustering blowhard bully with a mean vindictive temprement who has irreparably cheapened political discourse.

        When he first started running for president I initially praised his entry into the Republican primary race. I thought he would be a moderate Republican, who would deflect more radical conservatives like Cruz from standard right wing excess. But then he began to show his creepy personality, with erratic verbal name calling and by making contradfactual dumb statements that were transparently false. Added to that, a clear picture of his past business dealings and practices soon filtered out, and it quickly became apparent he was a lying SOB NARCISSIST with the business and legal scruples of an Enron CEO, and the gravitas of a circus barker.

        And that’s who was elected president, by less then 25% of eligible voters – Clarabelle the Clown with a Vagina Clutching fetish, who has so little regard for American tradition that he doesn’t want to live at the White House full time, who as prez Elect didn’t bother to visit or praise any military organizations or hospitals on Veterans Day.

  99. dduck12 permalink
    November 19, 2016 5:36 pm

    And I thought Hillary was terrific at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. I see a new yuge champ in Trump and his super ego. Where Hillary, in my opinion, was just sneaky and conniving (again, my personal opinion), I don’t think she has ego problems. To gain some humility, Trump, should have been cast on some desert island at an early age and been forced to eat seaweed and crab sandwiches, but now it’s too late.
    I voted for Hillary, although I have mostly voted Rep all my life, and am very disappointed she didn’t win (better the devil you know), but no where near the “end of world” despair of many Dems.
    I’m not sure if Obama and the Congressional Dems will mount a war against anything he does (assuming he can think straight enough to do something sensible), that will echo the Reps war against Obama. I think both wars were/are wrong and don’t benefit the country.
    I am hoping for some sensible/pragmatic people in the Trump empire, even a few, and trying to be optimistic while wearing my rose colored glasses..

  100. November 19, 2016 5:41 pm

    Disingenuous Donald is cashing in as foreign diplomats and staff stay at Trump hotels.
    The Statute of Liberty soon will be replaced by a Cash Cow.

    But let’s give him some slack – he will surely donate any profits from that surge in business over the next four years to his Foundation!

    https://thinkprogress.org/trump-hotel-prepares-to-cash-in-on-foreign-diplomats-e0f7d5e7a9cb#.r7erhk6zn

  101. November 20, 2016 12:35 am

    Well one thing about trump’s election, there is one person who’s career has been completely changed. Kate McKinnon on SNL and her portrayal of Hillary Clinton. Alex has a 4 year term on SNL portraying Trump if he wants or needs it.

  102. November 20, 2016 11:16 am

    I am totally loving the angst and upset of the left. How can their world view be challenged by this interloper.? This was not supposed to happen. Even HC has to get hammer on election eve before she could come out next day and meet her adoring masses.

    Well, they worked hard to create this reality, and now, they have it.

    Keep denigrating all who disagree with you, call them deplorables and eventually, even “average” voters tend to get pissed.

    Perhaps, if some of those “protestors” had actually voted, HC would be the POTUS. Now to me, there is a nightmare to be worried about. The Donald will do fine, likely cut us a number of better deals around the world. A couple (at least) moderate to conservative judges on the SC will hold us in good stead for decades to come.

    At least he will stop bowing to people and encouraging youngin’s to keep their heads in the clouds. BLM will have to get another champion now.

    Now that I have thrown down the meat, you guys can all jump in.
    Thanks.

    • dduck12 permalink
      November 20, 2016 2:00 pm

      As you pointed out “this was not supposed to happen”. I don’t blame the shocked and disappointed for “protesting” and hopefully working off some rage s long as it is civil. I think the “protests” would have been worse had HC won, BTW.

      • November 20, 2016 3:50 pm

        I don’t think that is so at all. I can tell you as someone who voted for Trump and who abhors HC to the bone, I cannot conceive of “protesting” her election has she won.

        As our current POTUS loudly proclaimed, elections have consequences. Deal with you you kids.

    • November 20, 2016 2:22 pm

      JB..I have to agree with you on their angst and their creating this reality. But I also have to lay some of the mass media hysterical coverage on the right wing media and Trump himself. The RWM for their incessant negative coverage of Obama and Trump with his incessant tweeting. Their has to be some method of shutting him up when it comes to Twitter since even his staunchest supporters will get tired of his 2AM twits (sic), but the negative media coverage will never stop. That’s just the new reality, either in the real news or the fake news coverage. What is going to happen is most Americans will just become immune to all news coverage and the trust in news will fall even farther than it is today.

      Even with the loss that the democrats face, they still do not get it. Most Americans want equal rights, but they want equal rights for everyone. That includes white, middle class America. They want equal protection of the law. That includes enforcement of all laws for everyone as they are written, not just enforcement of laws on the white middle class America. They want enforcement of the bill of rights for everyone and the recognition that the bill of rights does not guarantee rights for non-citizens. They want tax reform for everyone, not just tax reform that raises taxes on some without reducing the tax burden on the middle class that pays the freight. They want civil rights protection, but not when the civil rights of the masses is infringed upon by less than 5% of the population (bathroom and locker room privacy)

      What they want is respect and equal protection and treatment for everyone. What the democrats did was round up all the fringe elements of society and made them the cornerstone of their campaign, forgetting about middle class America. The GOP did the same thing in the primaries except Trump. And then in the general election, Clinton spent millions telling Americans how bad Trump was while Trump spent a fraction of what she spent and told Americans how great America could be again.

      We may not get the wall, but we may get more border patrol officers. We may get immigration courts that oversee hearings that hold and deport illegal immigrants. We may get ICE that will hold criminal illegals until their court appearance for the crimes they commit. And we may get action on sanctuary cities. What we may get is laws on the books applied equally to citizens and non-citizens.

      We may not get all trade agreements renegotiated, or tariffs on foreign products. But what we may get is tax policy that allows for companies to stay here instead of moving overseas and then, through IRS loopholes, loaning money back to the American company and not pay taxes on it.

      What America wants is a Democrat party that represents everyone and not just those that drink the waters on each coastal plain. And maybe how the democrats do that is by choosing leadership from younger congressional members from the working men/women section of the country who replace the tired old liberals from the coastal elite section of the country. Members like Sen. Joe Manchin (WVA) and Rep Tim Ryan (OH).

      • November 20, 2016 3:48 pm

        Well said. I think the first thing I would do is to chat with the President of Mexico. So far, NAFTA seems like a bad deal. We export jobs to Mexico and they send their most desperate immigrants here, illegally.

        I don’t see that as equitable. I would require them to start policing THEIR side of the border or those jobs might just get taxed back to the USA.

        And, I might add, this is coming from a free trader. Trade should be fair and balanced, just like the news media isn’t.

    • November 21, 2016 1:37 am

      “At least he will stop bowing to people and encouraging youngin’s to keep their heads in the clouds”

      He’s surely encouraged male youngins to keep their hands in female crotches.

      And surely encouraged the next wave of politicians to blatantly lie to voters and insult opponents with vile abuse. And to turn the entire campaigning experience into a World Wrestling Federation tag team match. That strategy brought success, and you can bet your ass we’ll see that same crassness for decades from political wannabes.

      Those who enabled Trump and continue to do so have lowered the standards of acceptability for president. Boorish BS is now the default. Rationalize it all you want, we soon will have a disturbed narcissist running the country who can’t even be circumspect at his Saturday Night Live caricature without petulent Twitter response. This fool is not emotionally qualified to drive a school bus, let alone be commander in chief.

      When you’re stuck with an irresponsible emotional dunce like him in a position of power, close scrutiny and loud constant protest is the key to survival. The populace needs to yell at him daily : the Emporer Has No Brains!

      • November 21, 2016 7:26 pm

        Not one comment of substance. What a surprise! I will judge the President by what he does as President, since that is what he is. He is off to a good start.

        It is funny that you question his brains. He is Billionaire, Harvard MBA, and now, elected POTUS. And, your accomplishments are …….

  103. dduck12 permalink
    November 20, 2016 1:56 pm

    I ain’t no lefty, Priscilla and I voted for HC, but Trump continues to shoot his mouth off and does it stupidly. He should have ignored a few boos (from the audience) and a mild lefty rebuke from the cast. If you can’t make a sensible comment, keep your mouth shut, schmuck; you won the WH, grow up.

    • November 20, 2016 3:44 pm

      Sometimes the children need a good tongue lashing. Obama would tell them they were all wonderful and to keep throwing tantrums.

    • dhlii permalink
      November 20, 2016 7:04 pm

      It was Pence that attended Hamilton.
      He enjoyed it and was not offended by the commentary from the actors.

      Personally I was.
      The audience is free to do as they please.
      The actors are not their for their own political expression.
      They are free to express themselves as they wish, on their own time from their own platform.

      But mostly this is inconsequential.

      I am happy. I voted my conscience. Neither Clinton nor Trump can be blamed on me.
      And still the lessor evil managed to win.

      Of course I have lots of concerns, and every new announcement either buoys me or fills me with fear.

      But it could not be worse than in 08. Trump is at most half wrong, and there is more than half a chance he will “make america great again”. It takes very little. If government would step out of the way the rest of us can do fine on our own.

      Trump could end up being a racist homophobic hateful hating hater.
      I doubt it, but I expect we will hear that constantly for the next four years.
      If he manages to get us to 3.5% growth – the average of the 20th century he will be remembered as a great president. And it really takes very little to get to 3.5% growth, just small reductions in the stupid.

      Yup Trump may well F it up. He could start a trade war, or a real war or — any number of other things.

      But seems unlikely.

      Canada and Mexico seem prepared to revisit NAFTA, and lo and behold the UK newly free from the EU is out looking for a trade deal.
      Trump could reconstruct the British Commonwealth with the US at the center – and Mexico to boot.

      How often do americans complain about loosing jobs to Canadians ? Or Brits or Aussies ?
      Trump could construct a real free trade deal with those countries we will have the least problems trading freely with. And he could do so easily.

      Or he could screw up.

      Who knows.

      In November of 2008 I prayed two payers.
      First that everything I knew and beleive to be true was false.
      That progressivism would work, that Obama would be a great president and the nation would prosper. I prayed that sincerely. But I had less hope that a seven year old praying for a pony.
      The laws of nature and human behavior are what they are and do not bend to prayer of progressive command.

      The second prayer was that Obama and his advisors would realize that if they healed the economy they could have all else they wanted.

      Neither prayer was answered. Pres. Obama has shown himself to be a decent person.
      But he has still been a poor president.

      I have little hope that Trump will prove to be a decent person.
      In a perfect world a decent person would be a good president.

      Regardless, today I pray that Trumps insecurity and ego are such that he fixates on reviving the economy. It is an easy task and he has some very good advisors in that regard.
      All that is needed is for govenrment to get out of the way.

      If Trump manages that his presidency will be a big success.
      And my assessment of Trump is thatis what really matters to him.
      That Trump has been in this from the begining for Trump.
      That this is about his ego.

      And I am counting on that. It is the best hope that he will be more focussed on succeeding than keeping campaign promises.

      Further I think his followers and voters know as much.

      As has been oft quoted:

      The media takes Trump literally but not seriously. His supporters take him seriously but not literally.

      Much of what is getting everyones attention – does nto matter.

      Getting government out of the way enough to let the economy move on its own again is enough, and is easy.

      • November 21, 2016 2:41 am

        Your 3.5% growth optimism isn’t shared by many economists, who say world wide economic forces have depressed growth in most of the advanced nations for 15 years or more, and that’s not likely to change no matter who is in charge of economic policies in the US or elsewhere.

        http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/07/upshot/were-in-a-low-growth-world-how-did-we-get-here.html?_r=0

      • November 21, 2016 9:28 am

        Trump is a deal maker, I expect he will right adjust many of the deals that the current bozo (and his predecessors) made. Our deal with Iran is a joke and the entire nation is laughing at our stupidity. Kerry should be renamed Chamberlain.

        As I indicated in another post, Obama is not a tough act to follow. I expect Trump will do fine but that won’t satisfy the left, which would rather have him fail and will do all they can to make that happen.

        I hope this Congress has a backbone.

        If this election has shown us anything, it is how infantile the leftist students and professional protestors (rioters in some cases) are. And we have an outgoing president that encourages them.

        He is just the worst.

        PS-I laugh at my fellow colleagues in “higher” education that have pampered these babies. I haven’t had to tell my students to grow a set, but then again, most of my students are working adults with real jobs and real obligations.

      • November 21, 2016 11:53 am

        I agree with you on Iran.
        I was a vociferous critic of that deal

        The fly in your Trump as Dealmaker ointment: he has a history of making lousy deals. The Failmaker hasn’t shown good judgement for anything but real estate promotion and self promotion. Most of his other ventures have been disasters.

        Examples of failures attributed to his bad judgement, compounded by his clumsily abrasive management style:

        The New Jersey Generals Football Team of the USFL, which folded after litigious Trump filed an antitrust lawsuit against the NFL.

        TRUMP AIRLINES, which defaulted on its loans a short 4 years after he started it.
        NUMEROUS Casino failures, including cheating American builders and suppliers out of $millions and the bankruptcies that followed.

        GOTRUMP.COM, a Travelocity-like search engine, that lasted a year. TRUMP MORTGAGE COMPANY, which also folded in a year. TRUMP MAGAZINE, and TRUMP NETWORK lasting two years. And let’s not forget TRUMP UNIVERSITY, a scam whose proportions will now be hidden by his $25 mil settlement.

        Overall, a president needs good judgement. If you think Trump has good judgement after ALL you’ve seen from him now, your judgement is missing in action.

  104. dduck12 permalink
    November 20, 2016 9:13 pm

    Good summary from an optimistic dh.

  105. November 21, 2016 12:18 pm

    Jay, you have really drunk the Kool-Aid on Trump.

    That is not to say that he will be the greatest president ever. Highly unlikely, but miracles do happen. Come to think of it, his victory was a political miracle of sorts. To call it an “upset victory,” would certainly be an understatement.

    Here is the thing that Democrats, liberals and leftists don’t understand. Trump is a product, a direct result, of the insane and un-American policies of the last 8 years, coupled with the unending warfare of the last 16. I know that you believe that the Bush’s opposed Trump because they thought that he was “temperamentally unqualified” for the job, The truth is, that he represented the end of the Bush/Clinton domination of the presidency and the federal government.

    Why do you suppose that so many people who voted for Obama, switched to Trump this time? A majority of women (despite Hillary’s Glass Ceiling schtick), as well as significantly greater share of minority voters than McCain or Romney got. And, of course , white working class men, the bubba’s that loved Bill Clinton and were treated as “gimme’s” by Hillary, who never even set foot in Wisconsin to campaign, so confident was she that the cheeseheads were mindless fools who would vote for any candidate with a “D” after his/her name.

    I know that you want to come back at me and talk about Hillary’s popular vote victory, but it’s meaningless. Running up the score in NY and CA doesn’t a national victory make. Alexander Hamilton, who essentially invented the Electoral College would agree, I’m sure 😉

    • November 21, 2016 3:57 pm

      What we forget when we talk about liberal and conservative America is even the states we say are far left liberal (California and New York) are really no different than most all of America. Hillary Clinton carried NY by 58% to 37%, but if you eliminate the four large boroughs of Bronx, Manhattan, Queens and Brooklyn, Donald Trump carried the rest of the state.

      No wonder the liberals want to do away with the electoral college. They find it almost impossible to split off from the collective, so they bind themselves together in a communal type environment where everyone thinks the same as they do. How smart were our founding fathers to see this way back when.

      http://alloveralbany.com/archive/2016/11/09/new-york-state-presidential-election-2016-county-r

      • November 21, 2016 7:57 pm

        Once again, well said. Liberals (my how they have co-opted that word) hate not getting their way. It is funny they call DT fascist when indeed, that is exactly what they are.

        Their ideology or the highway.

        And that is why I am having SUCH a good time these past two weeks. Their angst is my balm.

        Rock on Donald, build that wall (the one that Democratic congressman voted for back in 2006.

        As Rob Schneider just quipped “Democrats haven’t been this angry since we outlawed slavery.”

      • November 21, 2016 9:02 pm

        So, you want Conservative and not Moderate SCOTUS judges?

        Maybe you should be moving on to Breitbart, certainly more conducive to someone with alt Right fascist inclinations.

        If you were alive in Nazi Germany, would you be first-naming Hitler ‘right on, Adolph?’

      • November 22, 2016 1:16 am

        JB..I’m right there with ya’. The more they complain, the happier I get. I still remember when the press was covering the “bipartisan” meeting concerning healthcare that was being led by Obama and McCain made a recommendation using some words he had used during the campaign/ Obama said something to the effect ” John the election is over and elections have consequences”. McCain shut up along with the rest of the GOP members and Obama went on with the liberal agenda that contained most of what Obamacare has today.

        So after 8 years of having liberal crap shoved down our throats, its time for the liberals to eat some conservative crap for awhile. Jay is giving a good account of what the liberals are going through these days.

        And for anyone who is saying “Ron did not support Trump and called him all kinds of negative descriptive words” that is true. Again I voted for Johnson. But had someone held a gun to my head and given me two choices, it sure as hell would not have been Clinton I would have voted for.

        But again, I am enjoying the liberal pain and I am in a wait and see mode with DT.

      • November 21, 2016 9:02 pm

        Ron, that’s an interesting stat about NY. One of my sons lives in Brooklyn ~ he calls it “Hipster Heaven”. He’s 26, and voted for the first time this year. For Trump. He said he literally didn’t know anyone else who did, although many of his friends were disillusioned Bernie supporters, who didn’t vote at all.

        I also saw that Trump’s margin of victory in Texas was relatively slim ~ less than 10 points, as opposed to the double digit victories that Repubs usually get.

        NC turned out to be not a close as they were predicting, I see.

        The electoral map is changing….

      • November 22, 2016 1:03 am

        Priscilla, actually when the final counts in Texas came in, it was Trump 52% to Clinton’s 43%. That compares to 2008 McCain 55%, Obama 44%. Johnson took more votes this election, but it was still very close to 2008. The differences were around Dallas Ft. Worth, Austin and the Mexican border counties from El Paso down through the Davis Mountains were the population is thin to begin with. That would be expected with the high percentage of Hispanics in that area. As for Austin and Dallas, that’s what happens when the southern states go to California, Illinois, Michigan and other bastions of liberal politics. They not only import the business, they also import the liberal employees that end up changing the politics of the region. Austin would always be considered liberal due to UT being located there, but not Dallas Ft. Worth suburban areas that have changed over the years. Much like Charlotte and Raleigh NC yankees they have brought in that gave us transgender bathrooms and locker rooms.

        There are still many who voted for Trump that still will not say they did that. Guess it’s a wait and see for them to admit it. I think that is why the polls all showed Clinton taking NC and it turned out not to be. Sure fooled me!!!!!

    • November 21, 2016 4:38 pm

      Pricilla, you’ve really developed a severe case of Choice-Supportive Bias.

      That’s the cognitive inclination to accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative of the list of options you evaluate after making a decision on those options, and then to retroactively reinforce the positive aspects and ignore or forget the negative aspects. Even more troubling, new negative information after a decision is made is ignored or dismissed.

      Do I have to remind you of your own admitted negative comments about Trump’s unsuitability to be president? You described him as “an erratic, thin-skinned and egotistical guy, who is woefully unprepared to be the president.” You also said you wouldn’t vote for him if he continued to “behave like a stupid jackass,” which he did; but you voted for the stupid jackass anyway. Your ideology TRUMPED objectivity.

      Trump squeezed out a win in the electoral college. 75% of Eligible Voters turned their back on him. He has no mandate for major change. He needs to be scrutinized in office like a pickpocket at a Church Social: pray for his redemption from buffoonery and avarice and constant lying; but keep your hand on your wallets and purses.

      • November 21, 2016 6:26 pm

        Jay you need to be careful with the statistics you pull and use in comments. Yes Trump received about 60.5M votes out of 231.6M eligible voters or 26.1%. However, that was not much different than Obama in 2012. 58.7M votes out of 222.5 or 26.4%. And in 2008 with the financial meltdown and the huge black turnout, 69.4M vites out of 213.3 Eligible or 67.4%.

        So in this country 70% to 75% of the eligible voters turn their back on any president elected to office.

        You might try another set of stats that support your argument better than that one.
        http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/voter-turnout-data

      • November 21, 2016 6:34 pm

        And, you, Jay, suffer from an extreme case of projection 🙂 . That is “the unconscious transfer of one’s own desires or emotions to another person.”

        Right from the beginning, I said that Trump was never my first choice. On the other hand, I was the only person here at TNM who claimed that I would vote for him once he was the nominee, despite wavering significantly on one or two occasions. And, I don’t think I saw him through rose colored glasses, nor do I now. I am, however, very glad that the country rejected Hillary, and I think that, if anyone was temperamentally unsuited to the job, it was not Trump, but her. The fact that she was apparently too distraught to face her supporters on election night, or to concede the election (some say she may have been drinking heavily)? If the stress of losing an election made her melt down, I can’t imagine what she would do in a serious international crisis.

        And, don’t kid yourself ~ A sweep of the House, Senate and Presidency is a mandate. Not to mention, Trump can undo an awful lot of Obama’s agenda all by himself ~ that’s the danger of using EO’s instead of working with Congress to pass legislation. And, McConnell has already said that, if the Democrats try to filibuster Trump’s appointees, including Supreme Court nominees, he will do exactly what they did to the GOP and nuke the filibuster. What goes around, comes around…..

      • November 21, 2016 7:28 pm

        He doesn’t need a mandate for change. WE need that change. You are going to see what you want to see. Priscilla and I will give him a chance.

        Notice the difference?

  106. November 21, 2016 7:29 pm

    I see three more conservative SC justices in our future. Warms the heart!

  107. November 22, 2016 12:18 am

    November 21, 2016 9:02 pm

    “So, you want Conservative and not Moderate SCOTUS judges?

    Maybe you should be moving on to Breitbart, certainly more conducive to someone with alt Right fascist inclinations.

    If you were alive in Nazi Germany, would you be first-naming Hitler ‘right on, Adolph?”

    You poor deluded soul. I suggest medication, it MIGHT help.

    For the record, I voted for the Donald but I would have preferred other candidates.

    And there are the Clintons.

    You can have them, thank you very much.

    I so enjoy your upset.

    • November 22, 2016 12:47 pm

      Address my criticism about someone professing to be a Moderate proselytizing for conservative SCOTUS judges,

      Isn’t that the classic negative definition of political Trolling?

      The court is balanced now. Trump will stack it FAR right. Where do you see balanced moderation there? Oh, right, you want it slanted far right. Which makes you an enemy of moderation.

      • November 22, 2016 7:10 pm

        I think you find it extreme to advocate for a conservative SC. I guess where you hang out. I simply find the conservative viewpoint (which used to be called “moderate” more to my liking. I advocate for what I think works better.

        Sorry to upset you but you profess to be a big boy, so, deal with it.

      • November 22, 2016 8:35 pm

        You think nominating SCOTUS judges to overturn Roe is moderate?
        Really?

        Snake In The Grass Trump strongly reiterated last week he would ONLY nominate anti abortion judges. Is he’s LYING about that too?

        If in fact he appoints a moderate to replace Scalia, are you going to be happy about that? Or will you feel betrayed? And admit he’s as untrustworthy as the people he hired to market Trump PeeUuuu?

      • November 23, 2016 1:35 am

        JB. I think what liberals call a conservative SCOTUS is one that reads a law word for word and rules on that law based on the words they read.

        Liberals want a court to read a law and say this is what it says regardless as to what it says. The example of that is Roberts and his “penalty/tax” ruling and supporting the ACA so it did not upset the apple cart. Don’t read what it says, read what you think it means to say even when there are multiple meanings to that end.

      • November 23, 2016 11:05 am

        “”The words of the Constitution…. are so unrestricted by their intrinsic meaning or by their history or by tradition or by prior decisions that they leave the individual Justice free, if indeed they do not compel him, to gather meaning not from reading the Constitution but from reading life.”
        – Felix Frankfurter, 1949

        That means putting the Constitution in historical perspective, conceived and written by men who lived in an era when evening correspondence was written by candlelight and letters delivered by horseback.

  108. November 22, 2016 11:49 am

    Jay, I don’t want to just rub your nose in the election results, but it might be helpful to quote Time Magazine’s Damon Linker:

    “He’s temperamentally unfit to serve as president. He’s ignorant of policy. He’s corrupt. His early choices to serve in his administration are racist, anti-Semitic, extremist, unhinged. And of course the whole thing is frightening, terrifying, horrifying.

    Most of that is true, and it’s perfectly appropriate that we focus on the considerable dangers the nation now confronts. ”

    What the hell? “Most of that is true”!?? The dishonesty of what Linker is saying, and the fact that he is still saying it, tells you all you need to know about why Trump’s supporters feel as if the country dodged a bullet when it put the Clinton’s out to pasture.

    I won’t waste time providing the facts and realities that rebut the lies of those writers on the left who call Trump ‘s appointees “racist, anti-Semitic, extremist, unhinged”. Nor will I go into an explanation of why Democrats have settled on calling Trump’s supporters “alt-right” (nobody even knows what that means), “deplorable” “white nationalists” and other awful libels. The reality is that there are fringe racist groups on both sides, but only one side embraces groups like Nation of Islam, Black Lives Matter, Occupy Wall Street and Code Pink. There is only one party that’s considering naming a Muslim Nationalist, with links to the Muslim Brotherhood as the head of their Party. Only one party that supports the willful violation of immigration laws….I could go on, but you get the picture.

    So, the name-calling can go on and on, from both sides. And it gets us exactly nowhere, except farther down the road of division and hatred. Trump may have some fringe white nationalist supporters, but Clinton had her own lunatic fringe supporters. Rather than focus on the sins of the lunatic fringe and identity politics, the road to unity lies in focusing on the big issues on which there is common ground.

    My fear is that, unless we can get back to some semblence of unity, the disaffected voters (rural and jobless blue collar whites, military families, etc) who once believed that they formed the backbone and the heart of this country, and who made themselves heard in this election, will be driven to support a REAL racist demagogue, not a populist reformer, with a dirty mouth.

  109. Anonymous permalink
    November 22, 2016 12:55 pm

    I see Godwin’s rule is in full effect. I have no desire to become a “name calling” police officer. It is too tedious, futile, and hazardous all at the same time. I will admit that at times I have enjoyed other people’s suffering. But I am ashamed at myself for those times when I felt that way. I saw a movie/fiction about Nelson Mandela and a South African sports team. Although Mandela did not turn over power to the defeated political opponents, he did, according to this movie, go to great lengths to mitigate the pain of the losers. I don’t know if he did in real life, but it was an inspiring concept. Apartheid was an evil system, and the defeat of it was worth celebrating. But enjoying the pain of others IMO is wrong AND counterproductive. Mike H

    • November 22, 2016 1:57 pm

      Mike, I think it’s fair to allow people enjoy a bit of schadenfreude after a contentious election. As you yourself admit, there are times that one enjoys the political suffering of others, particularly those who have regularly demeaned them. GW and I had this discussion some years ago, when Romney lost what was supposed to be a winnable election. I was suffering the agony of defeat, he the thrill of victory. We compared it to Bush v. Kerry, when the roles were reversed.

      IMO, it’s the behavior of our leaders and our media that determine how long this lasts. So far, lip service has been given to unity by Obama, Hillary and Trump. I doubt that it will last, although I see that, this morning Trump has said that he is not interested in pursuing Hillary’s email situation any further, which may or may not be a real step in making that unity a reality. The media? I see little to no change…..

      I thought that my last post clarified that I believe that there is deep division and hard feelings on both sides that need to be addressed. If that was not clear, that is my belief.

      • November 22, 2016 3:13 pm

        “Trump has said that he is not interested in pursuing Hillary’s email situation any further”

        Until she criticizes some statement or action he make or takes..
        His word, as you surely must know, is worthless.

      • Anonymous permalink
        November 22, 2016 4:54 pm

        Priscilla, I would concede that it would be hard to show any damage from how someone else feels if they don’t express it. Or even to take it a step further, perhaps not right, but relatively harmless to share a feeling with like minded people. But for someone to express anything remotely like: “I enjoy that you feel bad.” It just seems outright mean spirited and I don’t believe anything good could come from it.

      • November 22, 2016 6:02 pm

        You adumbrated Damon’s article, Pricilla, distorting the context and intent. (you also misstated the source: it was published on the week.com where he is a regular contributor).

        http://theweek.com/articles/663225/demagogic-genius-donald-j-trump

        In the two weeks since Donald Trump’s shocking victory, the press has devoted a substantial chunk of its coverage to enumerating the president-elect’s many faults. He’s temperamentally unfit to serve as president. He’s ignorant of policy. He’s corrupt. His early choices to serve in his administration are racist, anti-Semitic, extremist, unhinged. And of course the whole thing is frightening, terrifying, horrifying.

        Most of that is true, and it’s perfectly appropriate that we focus on the considerable dangers the nation now confronts. Yet it’s also the case that our appreciation for the distinct character of the threat Trump poses to the country’s political order would be enhanced if we devoted a little more time to acknowledging that the risks are at least as much a product of Trump’s talents as they are of his many faults.

        The ominous fact is that Trump is undeniably one of the greatest intuitive political geniuses in history. Think about it: A wealthy businessman with no political experience at all takes on more than a dozen experienced politicians and manages to prevail, winning the presidential nomination of a major party. He then runs what an army of experts and analysts consider to be a train wreck of a general-election campaign and nonetheless manages to prevail to become the president-elect of the most powerful nation on Earth. It’s an astonishing accomplishment.

        Linker is a conservative-liberal mix; and his columns and daily Tweets reflect that. He is strongly anti PC, decries Identity Politics and the fixation on diversity in our schools and in the press, and has long decried the hard-left and hard-right zealots who have pulled the middle apart into a distorted pull toy stretched bizarrely out of shape.

        Linker has come to his ‘straddle’ positions from the conservative right: he was a speechwriter for Giuliani, respects religiosity, and believes in the orderly transference of government to the new administration. But he also knows, as I do, that the dufus elected president has to be scrutinized with magnifying glass intensity. The Fox is in the henhouse now, and taking eyes off him for a second could be disastrous. Linker’s reference to the media list of Trump faults IS mostly accurate:

        He’s temperamentally unfit to serve as president.
        He’s ignorant of policy.
        He’s corrupt.
        His early choices to serve in his administration may not be racist and anti-Semitic, but they surely give that impression. And from a centrist American standard, they are extremist. And yes, to HUUUGE numbers of Americans it is frightening, terrifying, horrifying.

        Name another time in your lifetime when the election of a president brought such WIDESPREAD fear.

        You people who claim you voted for him reluctantly should be most motivated to keep him under a tight choaker chain and leash: YOU enabled his victory; YOU need to stay on his ass at all times. Where are the Reluctant Trumpsters today, after he intimidated and insulted the media with another round of Big Mouth insults, calling them all liars, bitching because he didn’t like the photos they used of him on air? Where are the Pay for Play Trumpsters complaints now, with foreign dignities who want Trump appointments are booking $10,000 a night accommodations at Trump Hotels? (I’d like to link to that but would end up frozen in WordPress hell).

        This FATASS FOOL is morphing into Mussolini before your eyes and you’re blind to it. Keep rationalizing as the BULBOUS BOOR takes American values down the drain with centuries of American rectitude.

    • November 22, 2016 7:16 pm

      Jay is not “in pain.” He is just upset, as when you mother didn’t give you ice cream as a child. If Jay were in real pain (he broke his arm) I would be much more understanding. Right under the surface, many liberals are like a smug, self-centered child that demands that all agree with him or they will throw a tantrum.

      When confronting loss, it appears they become unhinged. If it were not true, we wouldn’t have all this crying and gnashing of teeth that we have seen since the election.

      • Mike Hatcher permalink
        November 23, 2016 12:22 am

        JB: At the risk of redundancy, I want to emphasize the I too have at times, acted in the same manner that I accuse you of as being mean. Even if we assume, for sake of discussion, both that Jay was not personally hurt and that liberals throw tantrums if people don’t agree with them, I find no value to gloating, just harm. As bad as I think Trump is, I personally believe that a Hillary victory could have ultimately lead to a higher number of gold star families in this country than under Trump. This is just speculation, Trump could end up being worse, but had Hillary won and I expressed dread for the potential suffering families might go through because of her leadership, I would not think of it as anything but mean for someone to say they enjoy my discomfort. About 7 years ago, I came home one day to see my wife crying about one of our cats having been killed by a car. When she said the name of the cat, I mistakenly confused it with my son’s name. For I don’t know how many seconds, maybe 4 seconds, maybe 10 seconds, I thought my son had been killed by a car. It is a pain I can still feel today when I think about it, even though it was only in my imagination as my son was and is in great health. I’m sure Trump’s win didn’t hurt Jay psychologically as much as my mistaken perception hurt me, but I would just like to advocate trying to be nicer and kinder to people if possible.

  110. dduck12 permalink
    November 22, 2016 1:37 pm

    I’d make two exceptions to your last sentence: Cruz and this Alt-Right guy Spencer. 🙂

    • November 22, 2016 2:13 pm

      Robert Spencer is not alt-right. He is a racist Nazi, who is as lunatic fringe as they get. (there is another Robert Spencer, who has a blog known as Jihad Watch, who is not the same guy)

      Here’s an article by the “good” Robert Spencer about Steve Bannon :

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/11/robert-spencer-in-frontpage-steve-bannon-and-keith-ellison-do-the-democrats-really-care-about-anti-semitism

      Cruz? Meh, I don’t like him. But he’s not a Nazi.

      • dduck12 permalink
        November 22, 2016 3:33 pm

        Ok, the bad Spencer and still dislike Cruz, the bad one, not the NY Giant one. 🙂

      • Anonymous permalink
        November 22, 2016 4:59 pm

        On a lighter note, I am seeing the statistics of number of laws passed of a given congress. Not much of an “average” but some as high as 800 laws, the lowest appears to be the recent Obama years with under 300

      • November 22, 2016 5:29 pm

        Oh, dd, I thought you meant the wide receiver! Ted (not Victor) ~ he’s the bad one 😉

  111. November 22, 2016 6:19 pm

    Just now, at an interview at The NY Times, #DeplorableDonald said “he had no obligation to establish boundaries between his business empire and his White House, conceding that the Trump brand “is certainly a hotter brand than it was before.””

    He says he sees no conflict of interest there.

    He also said he would be inviting business associates to the White House to take photos with him there.

    Let the rationalizations begin –

    • November 22, 2016 6:24 pm

      Any Of you Reluctant Trumpsters have a guess on Trump EVER releasing his taxes while president?

      • November 22, 2016 7:03 pm

        Yes, when HC releases the list of donors (on and off the books) and contributors to her pay to play process, I think we will worry about DT’s tax return?

        Oh, yes, you can include Obama’s college transcripts as well.

      • November 22, 2016 8:48 pm

        There there you you go go again AGAIN!

        You’re like a bratty kid who intentionally spills his milk on the table, and protests when Mom smacks him that his brother did the same thing last Tuesday.

        Trump & Family willl get OBESE on Pay for Play – were talking $Billions$!
        But you don’t care because he’s YOUR Crooked Con Artist.

      • November 23, 2016 1:24 am

        I could care less. Right now I am more concerned about who he puts in his cabinet. Then I am more concerned about his spending program and how he is going to cut taxes and spend trillions on infrastructure and not increase the national debt.

        Those that believe we can continue to spend spend spend, increase the debt and not have it have a massive negative impact on multiple future generations are looking through the same rose colored glasses that climate deniers are wearing.

      • November 23, 2016 10:42 am

        “I could care less.”

        That, in essence, is the problem.
        You’re legitizimizing lying as a campaign tool for election to high office.
        Your nation thanks you for caring less about the character of elected officials.

        Yes, it will be important to see what kind of cabinet the Liar In Chief appoints.
        No, he doesn’t get away with breaking promises of trust because he won a split decision in the election.

        In MY America, scoundrels don’t get a free ride.

      • November 23, 2016 1:59 pm

        Jay, I am not going to debate with you any longer.

        “You’re legitimizing lying as a campaign tool for election to high office.”.

        If you think Trump is the only one who has lied to get elected, then there is no way to discuss anything with you in a coherent way.

        Show me a politician that does not lie and I will show you a dead politician without a headstone on their grave.

      • November 23, 2016 5:15 pm

        I agree, politicians lie.

        And pickpockets steal your wallet.

        And as all pickpockets do that, are you saying we should ignore it because it’s common practice?

        And if a pickpocket steals your wallet and gets your cash and credit cards you may want to shrug your shoulders and say, that’s life and it’s no big deal. But if he’s a pickpocket prowling the halls of government where agents carry classified info, are you going to be as cavalier about past discretions, and give him the benefit of the doubt?

        Trump is a liar and not to be trusted. We may get some short term benefits in tightening the southern border and limiting Muslim immigration from dangerous Islamic nations (both of which I have always advocated) but at a long term price detrimental to our nation’s character, and an escalating political divide under Trumps obnoxious confrontational deceptive boorish governance that is going to progressively worsen.

        Time will prove me right; but by then the bus will have been driven off the cliff.

    • November 22, 2016 7:06 pm

      I bet you even think that L. Lynch and Bill Clinton talked about their children in their “chance meeting” right?

      • November 22, 2016 8:24 pm

        What does that have to do with NOW?
        Are you rationalizing that two wrongs make a right?
        Get your head out of the nether regions.

  112. November 22, 2016 7:04 pm

    “He also said he would be inviting business associates to the White House to take photos with him there.”

    You are right. He clearly is worse than Hitler.

  113. November 22, 2016 7:05 pm

    It is funny how Jay’s calls us Trumpsters because we won’t condemn DT before he even starts the job.

    That is what I call an open mind (sic).

  114. November 22, 2016 8:25 pm

    There ya go again. False equivalence Is your mother’s milk.

  115. November 22, 2016 11:17 pm

    “There there you you go go again AGAIN!

    You’re like a bratty kid who intentionally spills his milk on the table, and protests when Mom smacks him that his brother did the same thing last Tuesday.

    Trump & Family willl get OBESE on Pay for Play – were talking $Billions$!
    But you don’t care because he’s YOUR Crooked Con Artist.”

    And yet, he is still POTUS and you, are well, you. How does that feel, exactly?

    • November 23, 2016 10:52 am

      Not having an obtuse view of the world like yours, feels great. Thanks for asking. Not being a smug smug conservative apologist who puts ideology over country feels even better.

      • November 23, 2016 2:58 pm

        That is indeed, rich. Smug? No, just enjoying your pain. Get used to it, 4 more years worth.

      • November 23, 2016 5:52 pm

        I am already enjoying it, along with the commiseration of 64,223,986 Hillary voters, including the now 2-million more Americans who voted for her and not Lying Donald. And like the editorial cartoonists nationwide I already am having a barrel of laughs from the unending supply of Trump idiocies as he continues trampling on law, tradition, values, the Constitution, and his own promises -Tom Stiglitz’s cartoon today for instance, of the yearly Thanksgiving Day Parade, with the caption: GIANT CHARACTER BALLOON FULL of HOT AIR SPOTTED in MANHATTAN, showing a massive overinflated Trump balloon floating above the crowd, held in place by marching Trumsters.

        Despicable Donald will surely improve the economy in one area the next four years, creating multiple jobs for those adept at caricature, parody, and lampoon.

  116. dduck12 permalink
    November 23, 2016 2:21 pm

    May you live in interesting times. Yup, we got it, too bad civility gets compromised so badly. 😦

  117. November 23, 2016 10:44 pm

    Jay, you are in denial. The conservative train is about to do a 4 yr tango on top of your liberal head. You can protest all you want, but it is clear, you are in agony and I have to say, I am savoring every minute. The more you hate the Donald the worse it will get.

    To quote Sartre, “this is no way out.”

    It’s OK. it only hurts when you think about it.

    HC? Off to rehab at some point.

    Feel better?

  118. November 24, 2016 10:27 am

    GOP holds the WH, the Congress and the majority of Governors office in the US. A mandate? What might it take, otherwise?

    Over and out.

    • November 24, 2016 8:25 pm

      In the three states that provided Trump the electoral college edge, as of yesterday his lead in Michigan had shrunk to 10,704 votes, or 0.2 percent; his lead in Wisconsin narrowed to 22,525 votes, or 0.8 percent; and in Pennsylvania he only led by 70,010, or 1.2 percent.

      Clinton meanwhile has now passed a two million voter majority in the popular vote. The combined three state total for Michigan, Wisconsin, and a Pennsylvania is only a shade over 100,000 votes; what kind of mandate is that when Clinton has now passed two million more popular votes?

      Make America Great!
      Impeach Trump!

  119. November 24, 2016 12:24 pm

    11/24/2016 and Trump is still going to be President.

    • November 24, 2016 4:44 pm

      And the US Flag will symbolically fly at half staff for 60% of the American population who don’t trust, like or consider him qualified to be President.

      “Time will tell Just who has fell
      And who’s been left bedind
      When you go your way and I go mine”

      • November 24, 2016 8:14 pm

        You like your alter ego Trump reflexively mangle the truth to distort discourse.

        As you must know by now I’m not a liberal, but a centrist with some liberal and some conservative views.

        Parts of Lying Donald’s message are sound; but the messenger is an untruthful opportunist who cannot be trusted. He’s a thief and will manipulate the government to rip off billions for himself and family and associates. What part of that don’t you get?

        We’re about to enter the most corrupt period of money grubbing thievery in American history. Or didn’t you hear him say he’s under no obligation to separate himself from his businesses? That he sees no conflict in bringing in business associates to smooze at the White House? You’re a puppet dancing on a string; dance fool dance.

        http://finance.yahoo.com/news/krugman-trump-going-bring-era-155433007.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw

        .

      • November 25, 2016 4:33 pm

        I so love your misery. Four more years!

      • November 25, 2016 5:35 pm

        Guess Jay ignored my information on Obama not being supported by 67%to 73% of the people when he was elected. He could not argue with those facts, so he said nothing.

  120. November 25, 2016 11:08 pm

    “Guess Jay ignored my information on Obama not being supported by 67%to 73% of the people when he was elected. He could not argue with those facts, so he said nothing.”

    He has four years to deny reality. Walk in the park for him, I wager!

  121. November 25, 2016 11:11 pm

    Jay said:

    “You’re legitizimizing lying as a campaign tool for election to high office.”

    A supporter of a Clinton lecturing on lying.

    Him, can it get any better than this?

    • November 26, 2016 1:13 am

      You have the moral balance of a twisted penny.

      Even if Clinton was anywhere as egregious a liar as Trump in frequency or gravity of lies told ( she’s not even close) her lies don’t absolve Trump from lying.

      What lies did Clinton tell to convince people to vote for her on the campaign relating to her policies for governing? Any evidence she was lying on any of it to get elected?

      Lying Trump, however, has already reneged on promises he made to the electorate: he cheated, he lied, he said that he would repeal Obamacare care; now he says he’s keeping parts of it. He said he would prosecute and jail Clinton for her email treachery; but he’s dropped that promise. He’s already rolled back his assurances to deport all illegal immmigrants and stop all Muslim immigration. He also promised to put his businesses in blind trust; now he says the hell with that. And of course he lied about not being a pussygrabber, which he was. He rabble-roused supporters with promises of reinstituting water-boarding; now he thinks he won’t. He debunked climate change to great cheers at rallies; now he admits it might be man made.

      And here you are, standing up for a crude jackass who has obliterated the basic norms of politeness and respect we were brought up to believe were necessary and proper for our leaders. Here you are defending an asshole who has trashed our values of respect and consideration of others engaged in public discourse, with your own shallow rationalizations and finger pointing based on shallow rationalized ideology.

      • November 26, 2016 10:35 am

        As Director indicated “under oath” before the US Congress, HC lied 28 specific times to the Congress (also under oath) when she testified about her email server.

        It was clear from his testimony that she lied, but he was not convinced he could make the case. That might be true or it might be that Bill and Loretta had an accidental chat on the plane.

        Who knows. HC as a long history of skirting trouble. Check out why she was fired for from the team that prosecuted the Watergate incident.

        I could go on, but why bother? Trump will be President, HC will not. You trying to insult me (not possible, as you are not credible, nor intelligent) won’t change the facts.

        So, your four years in hell are still in store for you and trying to insult a ghost on the web is all you have left.

        Get it, left?

    • November 26, 2016 1:12 pm

      Since you’re so preoccupied over the removal of Clinton emails, I’m sure you will be equally enraged over these erasures too:

      “Over the course of decades, Donald Trump’s companies have systematically destroyed or hidden thousands of emails, digital records and paper documents demanded in official proceedings, often in defiance of court orders. These tactics—exposed by a Newsweek review of thousands of pages of court filings, judicial orders and affidavits from an array of court cases—have enraged judges, prosecutors, opposing lawyers and the many ordinary citizens entangled in litigation with Trump. In each instance, Trump and entities he controlled also erected numerous hurdles that made lawsuits drag on for years, forcing courtroom opponents to spend huge sums of money in legal fees as they struggled—sometimes in vain—to obtain records.This behavior is of particular import given Trump’s frequent condemnations of Hillary Clinton, his Democratic opponent, for having deleted more than 30,000 emails from a server she used during her time as secretary of state. While Clinton and her lawyers have said all of those emails were personal, Trump has suggested repeatedly on the campaign trail that they were government documents Clinton was trying to hide and that destroying them constituted a crime. The allegation—which the FBI concluded was not supported by any evidence—is a crowd-pleaser at Trump rallies, often greeted by supporters chanting, “Lock her up!”

      http://www.newsweek.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-companies-destroyed-emails-documents-515120.html

      • November 26, 2016 2:53 pm

        I think Donald Trump won the election.Clearly, he did a better job during that process.

      • November 26, 2016 3:43 pm

        There you go, equating lying about his opponents ( the Republican challengers as well as Clinton, insulting their character, calling them derigatory names), making insincere promises to the electorate, with doing a better job. You have a degenerate idea of the moral and temperamental qualifications for president.

    • November 26, 2016 1:02 pm

      Dear TweddleDUM:
      What do the emails have to do with campaign policy promises? Nada.

      And as to the link, Comey also said about 2,000 emails “have been retroactively classified, or up-classified, meaning the information was not classified when it was emailed, but it is now.”

      And “some of the classified emails were insufficiently marked, and it’s understandable that she didn’t realize that some of the ones without labels were actually classified.”

      Do you understand what a governing policy proposal is? It’s a solemn PROMISE to voters to try to do what you say you will do.

      Promising to DO something, when you have NO INTENTION of following through constitutes an egregious BIG LIE. Are you too simple minded to understand that?

      • November 26, 2016 2:49 pm

        Dear Moron.

        You will have to wait until the POTUS actually takes office to see what he does. Then, you can assert anything you want about his actual policy proposals. No wait, that would makes sense and how can you remain so righteous if you do that? No, you are better than Trump and that is really what is eating at you. No one cares.

        Now, we cannot know what either candidate intended to do vs. what they said. Even you can figure that out. Both may have lied through their teeth.

        We do know that only one gets to actually try anything as POTUS. How sad for you that it is not HC, but hey, those are the breaks.

        As I have said, I am not a Trumpster, even though I voted for him. He will be judged by all. In my case, I will judge him by what he does, and does not do, as POTUS. You won’t do that, it is not remotely possible for you because you are blind.

        So, you are going to have a very hard four years, I suggest you get more medication, because whatever dosage you are on is not doing it.

        As for the past, I think it is pretty clear that HC has avoided jail by being connected. She is not the first, won’t be the last.

        Sadly for those who lost their lives in Benghazi, her lies and indifference mattered a lot.

  122. dduck12 permalink
    November 26, 2016 1:44 pm

    Am I in a time warp? Isn’t the election over? Don’t all candidates promise this and that and yes lie? Isn’t Kiefer Sutherland president? 🙂

    • November 26, 2016 2:07 pm

      And wouldn’t we want someone with the thoughtful rectitude of Kiefer’s character as president?

      When watching the show I can’t help but compare it to the sad reality of our present situation and think fiction is preferable to fact. The devious antagonist way the Russians were portrayed last episode would surely rankle the PutinLover Elect – if he watches the show I’m betting we will be getting tweets from him bashing the show and it’s creative team, demanding they apologize to his Russian pals.

      • November 26, 2016 2:50 pm

        Why am I not surprised that you find fiction more comforting than reality? That is the first sign that you are a progressive.

        Don’t worry, it will get worse before, well, maybe it won’t get better, for you.

      • November 26, 2016 8:22 pm

        Miguel de Cervantes
        O. Henry
        Oscar Wilde
        Jean Genet
        e.e. cummings

        Connect the synapses.

    • November 26, 2016 2:51 pm

      I like Kiefer. Good actor, indeed.

      • dduck12 permalink
        November 26, 2016 6:14 pm

        Jb, do you have any idea of what I am or am not? You assume, and you know what that is. This is what I am: a Rockefeller Rep, pro choice anti-gun, small government, NYCer who has only voted for one, or two, Dem candidates in 50 years. Also I like brevity and don’t like beating dead horses. Oh, and I like fiction, it often contains humor. 🙂

    • November 26, 2016 3:45 pm

      AH dd, yes the election is over, (but is it really???) Mike and I have come up with a couple alternatives that will drive TV programming. Now I am thinking this election could lead to a monumental movie. DISASTER 2017

      Plot: As the new president is making plans for his administration, a little known third party candidate raises money for a recount in a handful of state that she carried by more votes than the eventual loser lost by in each of those states. She files for a recount and lo and behold, the recount comes back as the loser actually winning those states and turning the electoral count.. All those that were demonstrating against the new president have now taken to the streets to rejoice in their apparent victory. But wait, the first winner files a request for a hearing with the Supreme court since this covers multiple states and the ruling must cover those states where the recount changed the vote. SCOTUS meets for days and in the end they can not decide since they are deadlocked 4-4. Both sides supporters take to the streets, riots break out across the country, local law enforcement agencies are unable to handle the destruction and injuries taking place, so the current president declares a constitutional emergency, declares martial law and suspends the results of the election. And one can then write their own ending….

      • November 26, 2016 4:01 pm

        I am not taking to the streets. Just to make sure the head count is correct!

        Right now, Jay is getting on his riot gear.

      • dduck12 permalink
        November 26, 2016 6:16 pm

        Wow, is it on Netflix yet.

  123. dduck12 permalink
    November 26, 2016 6:20 pm

    Whoops, I apologize jb, lost the tread again.

    • November 26, 2016 6:42 pm

      No worries, this is not the best forum structure I have worked on. Very easy to confuse posts.

      I was a liberal democrat from the cradle. My family and college did their jobs well. It wan’t until Ronald Reagan was elected and I was dealing everyday with the state and feds as the CEO of a healthcare company did I wake up and start to read Sowell, Friedman, Hayek, and the like.

      Wow, like a ton of bricks, the fog lifted and I never looked back.

  124. December 11, 2016 12:04 pm

    From Peggy Noonan in the WSJ:

    “People don’t want to be shunted aside or told they’re expendable, that they’re yesterday and no longer count. Especially people whose country this is too, who’ve been here a long time and paid its taxes, whose sons died in its wars.

    I think Donald Trump and many around him have it right, that the Republican Party should shift its emphasis to become a center-right party. One of the most interesting comments at the recent Kennedy School postelection conference came from Mr. Trump’s pollster Tony Fabrizio. People don’t get Trump, he said, because “we really live in a world where everybody thinks that ideology is linear, and that ‘If you answer these 10 questions correctly, that makes you a conservative.’ ” He added, “many people tried to look at the Donald Trump phenomenon through the ideological lenses which had defined previous Republican presidential nominating contests.” But “Donald Trump is postideological.” Which, he said, is why so many Bernie Sanders people liked him.”

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: